Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Long-tailed Ground Roller/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by GrahamColm 16:13, 26 May 2012.

Long-tailed Ground Roller

 * Nominator(s): Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 00:43, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I am nominating the Long-tailed Ground Roller article because I believe it is a comprehensive overview of the species that is both well-written and well-illustrated, and that it meets the criteria. This elusive bird is found only in a small area of Madagascar's spiny forest. It digs nesting burrows in the sand and is so unobtrusive that the locals used to believe that the species hibernated. Thank you for reviewing the article. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 00:43, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Images are mostly OK. The reference for File:Long-tailed Ground Roller Range Map.png is dead- a citation to the particular article would be more helpful. Also, as it's based on a picture which is GFDL, I believe it has to be GFDL too. It's impressive that we've got such great photos for a species which such a limited range. J Milburn (talk) 09:16, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I put in a citation with a new link for the range map and, I think, changed the license to match that of the original map. Please let me know if I messed something up; images are not my forte. Thanks. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 12:18, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Support Comments by Jim COI, I'm a member of the Bird project. Some comments, mainly nitpicks, but the first is important. I made these edits, mainly mos or linking, please check  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  15:22, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The prose is a bit choppy, with each idea given its own sentence. I think that running sentences together more will make the text smoother and reduce repetition.
 * Following from the above, "bird" twice in first two sentences, "species" thrice in last para of lead, also "group" thrice in Taxonomy, "habitat" generally overworked.
 * ranging from worms to butterflies &mdash; in what sense is this a range?
 * After the chicks fledge... after the breeding season &mdash; isn't this the same thing?
 * Uratelornis chimaera &mdash; it's not critical, but if you can explain the binomial name, that would be a bonus
 * link "territory"?
 * were all placed in a single family&mdash; called...?
 * 0.008 to 0.1 per 10,000 square meters (110,000 sq ft). &mdash; I really don't like this, a weird unit of area to start with (10,000 sq m) and a conversion of the area rather than the numbers, which is unhelpful, Suggest 0.8 to 10 per square kilometre (2.1 to 25 per square mile)
 * Due to its short wings, the species rarely flies &mdash; evidence that link is causal? It's more likely that it has short wings because it rarely flies.
 * to pair with another Long-tailed Ground Roller &mdash; I think we would assume that it pairs with the same species, name is redundant
 * Hatching and fledging times? If not known, say so
 * Binomial needs italics in ref 1
 * Can you write the state in full in ref 8
 * pp. in refs 11 and 15 I think
 * HBW should have an isbn
 * What is the point of the hidden text ?
 * (butting in) that'll be something found and left for someone to check one day...and I think I'll do that right now already in article. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:29, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I've addressed all of your concerns, though I am not certain what exactly you mean by the habitat section being "overworked". I've given the article another copyedit while trying to smooth out some of the choppiness. I've also got a note out to Casliber; while none of my sources translated Uratelornis, Casliber has done wonders with scientific names before. Thank you for your review, and let me know if I've missed something. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 03:53, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I meant the word "habitat". I tweaked a bit to remove a couple of habitats and added links for territory, cranial and fledge, please check. No further queries, changed to support above  Jimfbleak  -  talk to me?  06:08, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Just one question: Why is ground roller capitalized in the title of the article?--Carabinieri (talk) 22:45, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Ground roller is capitalized in the article's title because it is part of the species name. This is the standard for WP:Bird and is talked about in detail here. To briefly summarize, species names are capitalized, like in Long-tailed Ground Roller, but if you are referring the ground rollers as a family, ground roller is lowercased. This is generally the standard in ornithological literature. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 03:58, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Comment. Full review coming soon. Was wondering if there was anything worthy of inclusion from ? Sasata (talk) 16:35, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I'll look at the paper later tonight. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 21:31, 24 April 2012 (UTC)


 * perhaps reword the three consecutive lead sentences beginning with "It" to reduce repetition
 * "…and its closest relative is believed to be the Scaly Ground Roller." "is believed" sounds a little bit weaselly
 * possibly useful links: population density, plumage, calls, breeding season, scrubland; native peoples; instead of the generic link to logging, how about the more targeted link to illegal logging in Madagascar?
 * "Madagascan government" Is that the correct adjectival form? I get 108k G-hits with "Malagasy Government" compared to ~34k with "Madagascan Government"
 * any possibility to include a citation and link to the protolog?
 * Sweet. I tried to find this earlier. Thanks.


 * what is the etymology of the specific epithet? (see here)
 * "This position is supported by DNA evidence, which also removed the Cuckoo Roller from the Coraciidae." the DNA evidence didn't remove the roller
 * "It has been suggested, but not widely accepted, that the ground rollers are closely related to the puffbirds and jacamars." Who suggests this? Is the definite article "the" required before ground rollers and puffbirds?
 * Unknown; its not specified in the source as I recall. Will double check.
 * Found the original source. Added.


 * "It is believed" weaselly
 * How should I write around this? These cases are suggested as possibilities in the sources, not as definitive truth. Is it really better to say "Noel Snyder hypothesizes that..." when the reference at the end of the sentence leads the reader to the suggestion? Am I missing an obvious way around this?
 * It's tricky sometimes, but if you don't feel like attributing the opinion, here's a couple of suggestions ("tricks") to avoid using the weasel words:
 * "It is believed that the ancestor of the Long-tailed Ground Roller was an arboreal roller" -> "Fossil evidence suggests that..." (or replace with whatever the evidence is)
 * "The Long-tailed Ground Roller does not migrate, though it is believed to disperse across a broader stretch of habitat outside of the breeding season." -> "..., though it may disperse ..."


 * "and recent genetic analysis suggests" avoid using the vague "recent" (I don't consider phylogenetic analysis from 2001 recent). There's another occurrence in the "Dist & hab" section
 * link covert, buff
 * "A white stripe is present from the base of the bill" "from" -> "at"?
 * "and it has been suggested" weaselly
 * "… and descending near the end." descending in pitch? volume?
 * Will check with my source next time I'm in the library.
 * I believe the reference refers to volume.


 * "Another territorial call has been described as" a hint of weasel
 * don't need to wikilink the units square kilometers and square mile twice in the same sentence
 * there's a few too many sentence that begin with "This"; there's five in the "Dist & Hab" section alone. I think it's bad form to start a paragraph with "This" (as is the case with four paragraphs in the article), but perhaps that's just personal preference.
 * Mixed it up in "Dist & Hab". I kept the paragraph-starting "this"es for some variety it introductory noun; I feel that "this" should be linked with bird, species, and ground roller and I don't want every paragraph to start "The Long-tailed Ground Roller"
 * I don't want that either :) I mixed up a few as well; it looks ok to me now. Sasata (talk) 18:27, 9 May 2012 (UTC)


 * "deep leaf litter.[13][10]" citations should be numerical order (unless there's a pressing reason not to)
 * "off of the ground" -> "off the ground"
 * "males have been observed feeding the female." link to nuptial gift (animal behavior)?
 * "20 centimeters (7.9 in) wide chamber" is adjectival so should be hyphenated "20-centimeter (7.9 in) wide chamber"
 * do we know the size of the eggs?
 * To my knowledge, we do not know the size of their eggs.


 * link courtship ritual, incubation, conservation
 * "The estimated population of the Long-tailed Ground Roller" perhaps start this with "As of 2011" (or whatever the year is)
 * minor reference nitpicks: journal article titles are inconsistently given in both sentence and title cases; publication date month + year or just year?
 * I tend to follow the style used by the original authors with regards to capitalization; do I need to make this standard? I include the month when the publication includes the month.
 * Our article needs to have consistent formatting; we can't accommodate the varied styles presented in other journals (we wouldn't, for example, give an article title in ALL CAPS because some journal from 1905 did so). Same with giving months—the presentation should be consistent (I added one). Another thing, publisher info is not required for journals. Sasata (talk) 18:27, 9 May 2012 (UTC)


 * outgoing links in External links should also tell us where they're going
 * To confirm, I need to say "Image gallery hosted by Arkive" or something?
 * Something like the following would work:
 * Image Gallery at ARKive.org


 * are there any other ground-rollers that share the same range? If so, are they easily distinguished?
 * No others share the range.


 * anything useful in these:
 * Morris & Hawkin's "Birds of Madagascar: a photographic guide" ISBN 978-0300077551?
 * Could not get access to the Long-tailed Ground Roller page.
 * There's a good species overview in Madagascar: an environmental profile that might have some additional information. Sasata (talk) 06:33, 30 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the review, and my apologies for the delay; I just had my last week of classes. In particular, thank you for your wealth of ideas for wikilinks I would never have thought of; I now need to go back and look at earlier articles. I've made all of your changes except those with commentary beneath them. I do have questions about some of them. Thank you. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 03:54, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Did you get a hold of the Appert (1968) article I mentioned above? I can email it if you don't have access. Sasata (talk) 18:27, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Comments by Axl:-

From "Taxonomy": "In 1971, Joel Cracraft proposed a separate family for the ground rollers based on dramatic differences in behavior, plumage, and post-cranial anatomy between the groups." Is the word "dramatic" required? Axl ¤  [Talk]  11:17, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

From "Taxonomy": "It is believed that the ancestor of the Long-tailed Ground Roller was an arboreal roller that invaded Madagascar from Africa." "Invaded"? Axl ¤  [Talk]  11:19, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

In "Description", paragraph 2, are the breeding season calls made only by the males? Axl ¤  [Talk]  11:25, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

From "Ecology and behavior": "The Long-tailed Ground Roller is a shy and elusive bird and, if seen, it either freezes or runs away." Should that be "if it sees a human observer"? Axl ¤  [Talk]  11:32, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Source review and comments
 * No publisher listed for current ref 23 - http://www.birdtheme.org/mainlyimages/index.php?spec=389 - what makes this a high quality reliable source?
 * I've added the publisher. For its purpose, which is just to show images of stamps, this is the standard source, frequently used in FAs. I can't see anything contentious about the content of this site which would make it inappropriate  Jimfbleak  -  talk to me?  17:11, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Standards changed a while back - we now require "high quality" not just reliable sources, however... Ealdgyth - Talk 17:15, 13 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Spot checks:
 * Minor bit but http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/24182#page/505/mode/1up does not support "Novitates Zoologicae, the periodical of his private museum." I'm pretty sure this isn't exactly contentious and can either be sourced or removed...
 * Footnote 9a is supported by its source and properly paraphrased.
 * Footnote 9c is supported by its source and properly paraphrased.
 * Footnote 3 is supported by its source and properly paraphrased.
 * Prose review:
 * Lead - do we really need to link to charcoal??
 * Description: "The sound carries for a distance of at least 200 meters (660 ft) and may either attract a mate or defend a territory." How can a call defend a territory??
 * Description: "The territorial call is a series of soft "boo" notes, typically coming in sets of six to ten and descending in volume near the end.[8] Another territorial call is a series of chuckling tu-tuc..." You first say "The territorial call" ... which implies there is only one, then you say "Another territorial call..." which is confusing.. can we get this made a bit clearer?
 * Ecology: "It is diurnal, though, unusually for a ground roller, it occasionally forages at night." Awkward - suggest rewording to "Although diurnal, it does occasionally forage at night unlike most other ground rollers."
 * Relationship: "The local inhabitants of Madagascar believed, as this bird is remarkably silent and difficult to see during the non-breeding season, that the Long-tailed Ground Roller hibernated in its burrows, although no evidence supports this." The digression of "as this bird..." is awkwardly placed, can we rephrase?
 * Just a few spots of prose that could use a polish and I'll be happy to support.
 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. I googled three random phrases and showed no copyright violations either (all turned up those phrases only on wikipedia mirrors). Ealdgyth - Talk 14:46, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Comments from Noleander End Noleander comments --Noleander (talk) 16:10, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Footnote #1 in Lead seems forlorn. WP:LEAD says footnotes are optional in lead ... the cite is already in the article body, I presume? Recommend delete footnote from lead.
 * Footnotes #19 and #22 have links to Ref section, but links are broken.
 * Tense: "The local inhabitants of Madagascar believed, as this bird is remarkably silent and difficult to see during the non-breeding season, that the Long-tailed Ground Roller hibernated in its burrows, although no evidence supports this." - strange shift from past (believed) to present (supports). Do they still believe that?
 * Date ambiguity: "At the turn of the twentieth century, .." - I suppose that means circa year 2000, but readers shouln't have to guess if it means 1900. Be more specific.
 * Wording: "Only one zoo, Germany's Weltvogelpark Walsrode, is known to keep ..." - "is known to" doesnt seem right for that phrase.  Just say "... keeps".  Any fact stated in the article "is known to" the best of the editor's ability.   If you suspect other zoos may have the bird, then the article should not say "only one zoo ..."; instead write "Germany'x W W keeps ...".
 * Italics vs. quotes for sounds: "of chuckling tu-tuc" is italics, but " Low "gu" notes" and other are in quotes.  If there is an official bird reason for that distinction, fine, otherwise choose one or the other.
 * I don't see an explanation of the name "ground roller", is it in the article? I expect to see "named ground roller because they roll on the ground ..." or something like that.  If the explanation is in the ground roller article, it should be duplicated in this article for one-stop-shopping.
 * DNA-based relatives: "This position is supported by DNA evidence.[5] It has been suggested, but not widely accepted, that ground rollers are closely related to the puffbirds and jacamars." - I thought that DNA information provided pretty concrete info about how closely species were related, I'm surprised to see "it has been suggested ..".
 * "This bird has been featured on several of Madagascar's stamps." - That seems rather telling, Does that mean it is considered a very prominent bird in Madagascar?  Perhaps symbolic in some way?  If so, the article should mention how the bird is well-recognized or admired etc within the country, and why.
 * Comments and questions by Ling
 * "definitively display sexual dimorphism" Did you wanna talk about how the males and females differ? I see only two brief sentences, separated from the dimorphism wl by text... – Ling.Nut3 (talk) 13:46, 24 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.