Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Madagascar/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 18:13, 20 September 2012.

Madagascar

 * Nominator(s): Lemurbaby (talk) 18:41, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

This is one of three vital articles about Madagascar. It's at GA level now and has gone through multiple peer reviews and copy edits. Having polished up many of the Madagascar-related cultural and historical articles here, I'm happy this root article is finally at a level I think is up to FA standards. I'm looking forward to your feedback and am available to make rapid edits and additions per reviewers' recommendations. Cheers, Lemurbaby (talk) 18:41, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments by MONGO:
 * As I mentioned in April during a peer review (last bullet point), I would like to see a small expansion of the ecological challenges/borderline disaster issues to the flora and fauna of Madagascar. Though the article explains how humans have impacted the ecology of the island over a little more than the last 2 millennium, the emphasis should be more about those changes in the last 125 years, which have been drastic and constitute the bulk of the deforestation and species loss. I think you'll still meet summary style if wording akin to what we find in the daughter article Deforestation in Madagascar is added...

"Deforestation[1] with resulting desertification, water resource degradation and soil loss has affected approximately 94% of Madagascar's previously biologically productive lands. Since the arrival of humans 2000 years ago, Madagascar has lost more than 90% of its original forest.[2] 70% of the forest cover of Madagascar was destroyed between 1895 and 1925, while Madagascar was under French rule.[3] Since 1953, half of the remaining forest has been lost.[4] Largely due to deforestation, the country is currently unable to provide adequate food, fresh water and sanitation for its fast growing population.[5][6] One major cause of deforestation has been the introduction of coffee as a cash crop during the French colonial period.[3]"


 * To most in the English speaking world, we think about this environmental issue since that is about all we hear about the island nation on a routine basis.--MONGO 14:38, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking the time to comment here, Mongo. I agree it would be good to include a little more about the process of deforestation. The challenge is finding data that is correct, as much of the content out there is still being debated. The cite above about 70% being lost under French rule has been discredited by more recent researchers. I will have a look around to see if I can determine whether a consensus has been reached recently, but if it hasn't then a brief summary of the claims and a comment on the lack of consensus might be the best I can do. Lemurbaby (talk) 15:29, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I've added some detail explaining that the deforestation began picking up speed around 1400 years ago and was already complete in the highlands 500 years ago. I'll keep looking for reliable data on more recent forest destruction. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:26, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I've completed edits to respond to the issue you raised, Mongo. I found solid scientific journal articles that provide greater information about the extent of recent forest loss on the island and the anticipated date of complete deforestation outside national parks (2025, very sad). Lemurbaby (talk) 03:42, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks good...I will have some time to dedicate to doing another check of anything else that I find in the next day or two.--MONGO 04:20, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks like you and Lemurbaby have settled this, but I wanted to comment on the quote above from Deforestation in Madagascar. Originally the article had a statement very much like this, but I pointed out to LB that the sources were not scientific, and that there is a lot of historic finger-pointing going on outside of the academic literature—all usually citing old, non-scientific literature.  (It's one of those sobering reminders that sources—even reliable ones—are not always correct.)  At a glance, the information LB has written looks correct, although I'm not as familiar with the authors and sources she sites.  I might run the section by an expert to be sure, since some of the sources are from the 1990s.  (I will also be offering my review shortly.)  Good job handling this, both of you. –  Maky  « talk » 00:24, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes and Lemurbaby made what I believe are adequate adjustments to that section. I suppose the issues I wanted addressed included what the impacts are, approximately when did they happen and what if anything is being done to solve the crisis.--MONGO 02:05, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * In the section Independent state, please update the information about the elections at the end of the section.--MONGO 15:26, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Lemurbaby (talk) 02:17, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Primates in Peril: The World's 25 Most Endangered Primates 2008–2010 is a dead link...I couldn't easily find it in the article.--MONGO 19:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done.
 * "Many high-level technical positions were filled by French expatriates, and French teachers, textbooks and curricula continued to be used in schools around the country. Popular resentment over Tsiranana's tolerance for this "neo-colonial" arrangement inspired a series of student protests that overturned his administration in 1972." - source?
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Be consistent in whether you include all authors in shortened citations
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:37, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * References section includes multiple uncited sources - shouldn't mix uncited and cited in same section
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * FN1: missing italics
 * Done Lemurbaby (talk) 04:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * FN2: need complete citations
 * Done. Lemurbaby (talk) 03:13, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Consistently use endashes for ranges
 * Question: What is the preferred format for these? I used to use &ndash but have since had those removed by bots or editors from other articles. I've also tried copying/pasting from an n-dash elsewhere, but when I paste it into the article, it looks no different. Suggestions? Lemurbaby (talk) 05:43, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Be consistent in whether you include publishers and locations for newspapers/magazines
 * Done. Lemurbaby (talk) 19:12, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Check for minor inconsistencies like doubled periods
 * I've checked, and I think everything should be okay. Lemurbaby (talk) 19:12, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Foreign-language sources should be identified as such
 * Used a consistent style to indicate this throughout. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Be consistent in whether you include locations for books
 * Done. Lemurbaby (talk) 19:12, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * FN79, 145, 146: formatting
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Be consistent in how BBC refs are notated
 * Done. Lemurbaby (talk) 19:12, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Don't mix different types of citation templates
 * I wasn't able to spot an instance of this. Example? Lemurbaby (talk) 19:19, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Question: The only instance I see that you might have found different was the Cite DOI for the smallest chameleon ref in the ecology section. Is that the one? If that isn't an acceptable format, let me know and I will change it. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:43, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Be consistent in whether you abbreviate US states. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:06, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Lemurbaby (talk) 19:19, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Review by Maky:
 * "a type of prosimian primate" – I know I use both "strepsirrhine" and "prosimian" in the lemur articles, but I wonder if it would be best to use "strepsirrhine" here, since that's the official taxonomy and more accurately describes their phylogeny.
 * I believe strepsirrhine was used in an earlier version of the article, and a copy editor later changed it in order to be more accessible to a wider readership as a top-level geography article. There are probably already a good number of readers who will not know prosimian, so I feel this was probably the right choice for this article, even if strepsirrhine is much more precise and correct. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how "prosimian" makes it more accessible to the public, given that when I give tours at the Duke Lemur Center (DLC), many people guess that lemurs are marsupials, of if they do know they are primates, 99% of them have never heard the term prosimian (whereas students who've taken anthropology classes give me funny looks for using outdated terminology). I know the DLC favors "prosimian" because it's easier to explain the Latin roots and play off the general misunderstandings about evolution (that "primitive" organisms evolve into "advanced" organisms.)  We're not doing either here, but honestly, whatever...  –  Maky  « talk » 16:48, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually I just realized I was the one who put prosimian in there, as I copied the wording you had proposed on the talk page. Do you feel strongly about strepsirrhine? I do think prosimian is more recognizable, but maybe because I learned it in school 20 years ago, and if it's outdated, then... you'd know best. What's your final recommendation - change it or leave it? Lemurbaby (talk) 05:06, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "The island's iconic traveler's palm (Ravenala) features in the national emblem." – I capitalized "Ravenala" because I thought you were referring to the genus, but if you're referring to the local name, then that probably needs a reference. Anyway, if it is a local name, is it universal across all the dialects?
 * It's the name in official Malagasy. Some dialects may have other names for it. I can't find a source that explicitly states it is the name in official Malagasy, only that it is the Malagasy name for the plant. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "State-controlled logging of precious woods within national parks, authorized in January 2009 by Ravalomanana, has dramatically intensified under the Rajoelina administration as a key source of state revenues to offset cuts in donor support following Ravalomanana's ouster." – I don't think the source supports this statement. Anyway, as far as I know, the logging is not state-controlled... in a manner of speaking.  The state authorizes loggers to go in and collect trees that fall over after cyclones, but instead the loggers cut down the hardwoods that don't fall over.  The wood is then stashed/hidden, and then given the green light to sale every few years when world-wide demand peaks.  They then flood the market, a few people in Madagascar line their pocket, and the new government gets their cut to supplement the international support that was cut by the West following the coup.  The same basic thing was happening under Ravalomanana, but to a much smaller extent.  If needed, I can try to help find a more recent source and maybe help re-word that sentence if necessary.
 * I reworded it and replaced the other source with a more recent one. Feel free to tweak it as you see necessary. Lemurbaby (talk) 09:00, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Good enough. Thanks. 03:30, 11 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm a little concerned about the external link in the "Largest cities or towns of Madagascar" table under "Demographics". Normally external links are only permitted in the "External links" section or under the "References".  Is there any way to set this up as a reference?
 * That table was added by another editor and I feel it's a bit out of place, too prominent and adds more detail than is needed in this article. Maybe it could work better in an article about demographics of Mada or something. What if we removed it? Lemurbaby (talk) 06:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, the article is large enough as it is. I would move it to an article about demographics. –  Maky  « talk » 16:48, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'm removing it. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:06, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "Having been repeatedly postponed, presidential elections are currently scheduled for 8 May 2012, while parliamentary elections and second-round presidential elections are set for 3 July 2012." – Anything new on this? Otherwise say "were last scheduled".
 * Changed. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Oops, that should have been 2013, not 2012. I've fixed it (and kept the "last scheduled for" - should this change now?) Lemurbaby (talk) 09:00, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * caption: "Toy animals made from raffia" – can raffia be briefly explained?
 * I linked raffia and added a brief explanation. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * caption: "Child immunization is rising" – This is vague—from when to when, starting when, or compared to when? Basically, I look at the photos before I read the section, and I see pictures that are not adequately explained.  It's generally safe to assume that most people won't read the bulk of the text, but will read the lead and look at the pictures/captions.
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 09:00, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Very good caption. – Maky  « talk » 03:30, 11 September 2012 (UTC)


 * caption: "Malagasy ethnic groups" – Perhaps "Regional distribution of ethnic groups"?
 * Done Lemurbaby (talk) 06:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "...with about 20 percent practicing Roman Catholicism" – 20% of the 41%, or 20% of the population? I'm having a hard time interpreting the numbers in this sentence, particularly this part.
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 09:00, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "The zebu (humped cattle), introduced to Madagascar by Bantu-speaking..." – Link and explanation should occur much earlier in the article.
 * Done. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "An epic poem exemplifying these traditions, the Ibonia, ..." – Wouldn't "Ibonia" be italicized?
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "Its nearest geopolitical neighbors include the French island territory of Réunion and the island nation of Mauritius to the east, as well as the island state of Comoros and French island territory of Mayotte to the north west. The nearest mainland state is Mozambique, located to the west." – Missing a citation... though I'm not sure if it's necessary since this information can be gathered from looking at a map.
 * I believe WP guidance for citations is to cite statistics, contentious info and info that is not general knowledge... I'm okay with trusting this can be considered general knowledge because it can be seen on a map. I did look for sources just now and strangely couldn't find anything where this was written out. If a cite is needed I'd probably be linking to a map. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:19, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "...and caused more than US$250 million in damage." – Missing a citation.
 * Added. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:19, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "The French established trading posts along the east coast in the late 17th century." – Missing a citation.
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:19, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "Many high-level technical positions were filled by French expatriates, and French teachers, textbooks and curricula continued to be used in schools around the country. Popular resentment over Tsiranana's tolerance for this "neo-colonial" arrangement inspired a series of student protests that overturned his administration in 1972." – Missing a citation.
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "These include such projects as coal mining at Sakoa and the extraction of nickel near Toamasina by Rio Tinto, as well as the development of the massive onshore heavy oil field at Tsimiroro and ultra heavy oil field at Bemolanga by Madagascar Oil." – The source does not support this. It makes no mention of Toamasina, Tsimiroro, nickel, etc...
 * Thanks for raising this here. It's something that was also mentioned on the Talk Page, and I responded there that I would fix this in the next several days - but it's better to have that documented here as well. Given my schedule at work for the next couple of days, I expect I'll be able to make this change Saturday or Sunday at the latest, and then I will have responded to all the points raised in the review. Lemurbaby (talk) 20:37, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I've made changes to the section and added new references. Lemurbaby (talk) 03:42, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "Several major projects are underway in the mining, oil and gas sectors that are anticipated to give a significant boost to the Malagasy economy. These include such projects as ilmenite and zircon mining from heavy mineral sands near Tôlanaro by Rio Tinto..." cites this ref, but I'm still not seeing the material in it. The other parts of that edit look okay. –  Maky  « talk » 23:30, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * There is a Rio Tinto citation after the piece about ilmenite and zircon that covers it. Lemurbaby (talk) 02:59, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Otherwise, a beautiful article! Excellent work on a very high-priority, broad topic! I can imagine how much work this must have taken, given what I went through with Lemur. You should be very proud of this. I'm looking forward to adding my support. – Maky  « talk » 02:23, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I've responded to all your comments. Thanks as always for your eye for detail, and for taking the time to provide all this helpful feedback. Lemurbaby (talk) 09:00, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Support – Excellent work. The article meets FA criteria, IMO. – Maky  « talk » 18:01, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Image check - (Done) most images are OK (checked all, most are PD-own, CC, Flickr), however two issues :
 * File:Andrianampoinimerina.jpg - misses US-tag (pd-old-100, pd-1923 or similar can be added as second parameter to the pd-art template itself). Also summary information is very thin - source, publication date, author name and year of death should be added (when available).
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:06, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * File:Ethnic groups of Madagascar Map.png - which source data was used to create this map? Add info to summary.
 * Added. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:06, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * File:Hira_gasy_dancer_Madagascar.jpg - has maintenance tag for categories. Not relevant for FA-criteria, just noting as info.
 * Fixed. MathewTownsend (talk)


 * 3 multiple images are a lot, but in this case i think, they are really helpful to illustrate the topic. If other reviewers disagree, you could still move a few to sub-articles. GermanJoe (talk) 07:41, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree that the images are immensely helpful in conveying the country's enormous contrasts.  MathewTownsend (talk) 21:10, 5 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Support promotion to FA...I have some minor quibbles but none that make me feel the article isn't featured article ready. Lemurbaby has made huge improvements to the article since it was at GAC and Peer Review and has been receptive to addressing other issues as they have been brought up. There is a lack of reference material regarding Madagascar in the western world since the focus is overwhelmingly about the unique flora and fauna and the environmental impacts the island nation is dealing with. This article ensures that, while these aspects are discussed, we also learn about the human inhabitants, their history, culture, language, politics and other things which should be included in this article.MONGO 14:27, 4 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - Agree that Lemurbaby has made huge improvements since my GA review and has been exceptionally receptive to reviewers' comments. This article is an enormous achievement, no easy task.  Beautifully done, IMO. Kudos muchos to Lemurbaby.  MathewTownsend (talk) 21:10, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Comments from Ucucha:
 * "Madagascar later split from India about 88 million years ago, allowing plants and animals on the island to evolve in complete isolation." The last part of the sentence is incorrect; though Madagascar has a highly endemic fauna, its isolation is by no means complete. Lemurs, for example, arrived long after Madagascar split from India. The source itself says this.
 * Changed to "relative isolation". Lemurbaby (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * There are several known species of elephant birds (the precise number is apparently controversial), so it is inappropriate to refer to elephant birds as "this species". Also, is the height given for all species or just for the largest? Mullerornis was significantly smaller, I believe.
 * Rephrased. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you sure that the "average height" figure is correct? It is unusual to give average heights for families (as opposed to species). I don't have full access to the source (Davies 2003), but from Google Books (showing section on elephant birds starting on p. 103) it seems that either the page number given in the article (pp. 99–101) is wrong or Google Books has a different version of the book than the editor who added the reference.
 * I'm going into this much detail because the number seems unrealistic to me. According to, the height of the largest elephant bird, Aepyornis maximus, averaged only 2.7 m. I haven't yet found a height estimate for Mullerornis, but it was significantly smaller than Aepyornis (e.g., see ). On the other hand, Hawkins and Goodman (1999, pp. 1019–1044 in Goodman & Benstead, The Natural History of Madagascar) say that Aepyornis maximus reached a height of 3–4 m. I'm not going to make the change myself because I don't have access to the source, but it seems more accurate to say that elephant birds reached a height of up to 3 m—the average surely was lower. Ucucha (talk) 19:57, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I have access to the Hawkins and Goodman source, and it does in fact say 3–4 m, but the sources it sites are from 1931 & 1947. Honestly, height may not be the best measure to use here—I'd favor mass.  Although mass estimates are best guesses, height depends on how you reconstruct the skeleton and how the animal carried its weight.  But then again, I'm not well versed in ratite morphometrics... –  Maky  « talk » 03:01, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's necessary to talk about height or mass, actually... too much irrelevant detail given the focus of the article. I'm removing it. Lemurbaby (talk) 20:37, 12 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The "Security" section says Madagascar became a French colony in 1897, but according to "History" it was annexed in 1896.
 * That's correct. It was annexed in 1896 as a protectorate but did not become a colony until 1897. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * In that case, it is just confusing to have both of those dates in different sections of the article, without any explicit explanation. Ucucha (talk) 19:57, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Changed: "France annexed Madagascar in 1896 and declared it a colony the following year..." Lemurbaby (talk) 20:37, 12 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "Historically, security has been relatively secure"—perhaps substitute "Madagascar", "the island", or something similar for "security".
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "only seven percent of Madagascar's 22 districts had access to water provided by Jirama"—that is mathematically impossible. If only one district has access, that is 5%; two districts would be 9%. The source talks about fokontany, which are apparently some lower level of government.
 * Good catch, you're right - that's 7% of the fokontany. Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "... the Islamic religion failed to take hold in all but a handful of southeastern coastal communities. Today, Muslims constitute 7% of the population of Madagascar and are largely concentrated in the northwestern provinces ..." Is this correct? If Islam took hold only in the southeast, why are Muslims mainly in the northwest now?
 * Yes, it's correct. Islam was introduced in the southeast in the 7th-9th centuries by Arab sailors who didn't form lasting communities, but much more recently (the last several hundred years) new arrivals primarily from South Asia and Mauritius established strong and enduring communities in the northwest, particularly in Mahajanga. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, I suppose further explanation of that point would go into too much detail for this article. Ucucha (talk) 19:57, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

All of these are minor points, and overall the article reads very well and appears to be well-balanced. Ucucha (talk) 23:49, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Support—All comments addressed. The article appears comprehensive and well-written. Ucucha (talk) 14:11, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Comments (All Done) - mostly minor issues, great work so far:
 * Geography - "Due to its [relatively] lower population densities, ...." ==> redundant, "lower" is always relative.
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Politics - "The political [arena] in Madagascar [has been marked] by struggle for control. Since Madagascar gained independence from France in 1960, the island's political transitions [have been marked]..." ==> "arena" is a common term in news, but sounds a bit too informal here. Also marked ... marked repetition. Suggest to remove the short summary intro.
 * Removed. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Security - "The Minister of the Interior is responsible for the national police force, paramilitary force (gendarmerie) and the [secret police]. These bodies are stationed and administered [at the local level]." ==> Can you double-check this please? I guess it's possible, but it sounds strange, that "secret police" would be administered at "local" (town) level (maybe regional level?). Local level is usually the lowest level of administration.
 * I couldn't find this in the source either, so I changed it. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Infrastructure - "The port at Antsiranana, considered one of the [finest] natural harbors in the world, handles a relatively low [the] volume of shipping due to the town's remoteness and poor ground access to the capital." ==> "finest" is vague, is it "safest" or "most beautiful" (POV)? Also grammar, "the" seems lost.
 * Rephrased. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Religion - "Many of the Christian churches are influential in politics. [The best example of this] is the Malagasy Council of Churches..." ==> Avoid essay-ish examples, just plainly state, what the MCC is and who thinks it's influential and why.
 * Rephrased. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Religion - "[Eastern religions] are also present on the island. Islam was first brought..." ==> That's a bit confusing. According to a popular Internet encyclopedia (...) Islam is not an Eastern religion. From an European POV that term is most often used only for far-eastern Asian religions. In any case the term is quite vague and Western-centric and is best avoided. Suggest to remove the sentence (if other Eastern religions like Buddhism are meant, they need more detail). GermanJoe (talk) 12:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Comments (All Done) - don't be discouraged. A nice article, but it's long and has lots of information, therefore lots of comments follow:
 * lead - "Current and future generations in Madagascar are faced with the challenge of striking a balance between economic growth, equitable development, and natural conservation." ==> Remove that part. A true, but unencyclopedic statement - also not particular unique for Madagascar, but for all countries.
 * Removed. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:33, 15 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Etymology - Just checking: Is the whole second half after "The name Madageiscar ..." covered by source [8]? It contains several critical facts about the name's development (first record and usage spread), so should have a source.
 * Yes, the source discusses all these points. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:33, 15 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Geography - "Due to [its] lower population densities, Madagascar's dry [deciduous] forests have been better preserved than the eastern rain forests or the original woodlands of the central plateau." ==> plural. Also "dry forests" should be specific enough to avoid repetition.
 * I find it's important to include both descriptors of this kind of forest. "Dry" is added to differentiate from the climate zones where rainforests occur, and deciduous refers to the quality of the forests themselves separately from the zone they're in. The spiny forests in the dry zones are not deciduous, for example. Changed "its" to "their". Lemurbaby (talk) 04:33, 15 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Ecology - "[As of 2008, there were officially 99 species and subspecies of lemur, 39 of which have been described by zoologists between 2000 and 2008.[29]] By 2012, the number of identified species had increased to 103.[30] ==> Remove the first sentence (to a sub-article if needed), assuming the 2012 number is also reliable. The article focus is Madagascar, not lemurs and the history of their classification - too detailed.
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Environment - "Tavy has [strong cultural meaning], in addition to its practical value as an agricultural technique." ==> vague, what kind of meaning? can a very brief detail be added?
 * Added. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:50, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "[An example is the island's] elephant birds, a family of endemic giant ratites that went extinct in 17th century or earlier, most probably due to human hunting of adult birds and poaching of their large eggs for food." ==> remove "example" and rephrase as fact.
 * Done. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "Numerous extinct giant lemur species [also] ..." ==> redundant
 * Reworded this section. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Kingdom of Madagascar - "From his initial capital Ambohimanga, and later from the Rova of Antananarivo, this Merina king rapidly expanded his rule over neighboring principalities, [with the intention of bringing the entire island under his control], [59]" ==> check source 59, the first part is covered with some interpretation, but i couldn't find the "intention"-part. If it doesn't have a RS, just state what happened as matter of fact and remove interpretations.
 * Corrected the source. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * French Colonization - "In 1958, there were 68,430 European settlers living in Madagascar." ==> This small phrase lacks context with the surrounding text and would better fit into "Demographics" (or expand it's relevance for history).
 * Moved to demographics. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Politics - "has occasionally been used to impede political demonstrations.[94][40]" ==> switch cites to ascending order
 * Done. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Security - "and was [obliged] to surrender following an attack on the royal palace at Antananarivo" ==> forced (for an armed conflict)
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Infrastructure - "Air Madagascar services the island's many small regional airports, which offer the only practical means of access to many of the more remote regions [of the island] during rainy season road washouts." ==> first sentence already establishes "on the island", can be removed.
 * Revised. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Education - "The LMS was invited by King Radama I (1810–28) to expand [their] schools throughout Imerina" ==> "its schools" (singular subject)
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "By the end of the 19th century Madagascar [could boast] the most developed and modern school system in pre-colonial Sub-Saharan Africa." ==> "had" or "had achieved" would avoid the POV-ish "boast".
 * Revised: "had" Lemurbaby (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "[created tension among] those desiring a complete separation from the former colonial power." ==> "Created tension with those ..." sounds more logical. Someone advocating a "complete" separation would not support a major French influence altogether - so the tension was likely with that group (?), not among it.
 * used "dissatisfied those..." Lemurbaby (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "However, the quality of education remains a challenge in Madagascar and student repetition and drop-out rates are high." ==> Is that statement aimed at 1996-2006 from the previous statement or is is the actual situation? If it's describing the actual situation, it should probably be moved after Ravalomanana's second term efforts focussing on quality? Also i am no fan of this "remains a challenge" phrase (later used again), better to use more neutral phrases.
 * Rephrased every instance. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Ethnic diversity - "Only two general censuses, in 1975 and 1993, have been carried out after independence." ==> with what results? Are the total populations or other noteworthy facts from those censuses available to add between 1900 and 2011?
 * The reason for mentioning this is to allow the reader to understand why so many demographic figures are estimates and why more recent detailed information isn't available. The data from either survey is too old to bear inclusion, in my opinion. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Language - "eastern Malagasy (spoken along the eastern forests and highlands, including the Merina dialect of Antananarivo) and western Malagasy, spoken across the western coastal plains." ==> use parentheses for both "spoken in"-clauses or none of it (i'd prefer no parentheses, the content is essential part of the main text).
 * Fixed. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Religion - "In addition, the Malagasy believe in a creator god, called Zanahary or Andriamanitra." ==> all Malagasy including Christians, Muslim and Hindu?
 * Yes, the Christians kept the traditional name for the creator god. Some Muslims use the name Allah. The Hindus in Madagascar are South Asians, not Malagasy (and this is both ethnic and political as the vast majority of South Asians have not been given Malagasy citizenship even if they are born on the island). But I'll clarify by specifying "traditionally believe...".  Lemurbaby (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Culture - "a traditional division of social classes into nobles, commoners, [and slaves]" ==> How does this influence Madagascar's actual society, especially the slavery part? GermanJoe (talk) 13:29, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * This is a complex thing to summarize, and I didn't see a single source that attempts to make a broad sweeping statement about this (I'll keep an eye out for one in the future). For now, I've cited a book that explores the topic on a page where the issue is discussed as it plays out in two ethnic sub-groups. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I believe I've responded to all your comments, GermanJoe. Thank you for taking the time to review this and offer your very helpful remarks. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:50, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Support - (remaining points Done) Among country articles this one is certainly one of the most comprehensive. Overall well-structured and -referenced. A few minor points follow:
 * Geography - "Its nearest [geopolitical] neighbors include the French island territory of Réunion and the island nation of Mauritius to the east, as well as the island state of Comoros and French island territory of Mayotte to the north west." ==> Maybe it's possible to avoid the numerous islands here: "Neighboring islands include the French territory of Réunion and the country of Mauritius to the east, as well as the state of Comoros and the french territory of Mayotte to the north west." ("geopolitical" is redundant here too).
 * This has now been changed by another editor. Lemurbaby (talk) 03:48, 19 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Environmental challenges - "At the 2003 IUCN World Parks Congress in Durban, Ravalomanana announced the Durban Vision, an initiative to more than triple the island's protected natural areas from approximately 17,000 km2 (6,600 sq mi) to over 60,000 km2 (23,000 sq mi) (an increase from 3 percent to 10 percent of Madagascar's land surface)." ==> Too detailed for a "vision" (NPOV). Trim that to the pure fact "At the 2003 IUCN World Parks Congress in Durban, Ravalomanana announced the Durban Vision, an initiative to increase the island's protected natural areas from approximately 17,000 km2 (6,600 sq mi) to over 60,000 km2 (23,000 sq mi)." (the other calculations add nothing new to the fact). Is an actual summary value available - how much of this plan has been realized in terms of area by now?
 * I find it helpful to include the percentages, because this puts the surface area into context. Is it a drop in the bucket or a major increase? The percentages tell us that.Lemurbaby (talk) 03:48, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * After rechecking some background information (the plan was mostly implemented), the current desciption seems ok. GermanJoe (talk) 06:49, 19 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Structure - "In 2011, the capital's population was estimated at 1,300,000 inhabitants[. By comparison], the next largest cities ..." ==> can be merged, the comparison is redundant / obvious.
 * Removed. Lemurbaby (talk) 03:48, 19 September 2012 (UTC)


 * A general remark to Ecology and Environment. Those aspects are important topics for Madagascar, so their coverage should reflect that - no problem. However their sections length is at the upper limit per WP:WEIGHT compared with other sections. When more details need to be added, i recommend to look at the sub-articles and expand those rather then the main article. The main article can't (and shouldn't) cover every detail (WP:SUMMARY).
 * Agreed. I'll be keeping an eye on this article and making sure future editors are aware of this need. Lemurbaby (talk) 03:48, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Aside from those nitpicks great work with such a broad topic. GermanJoe (talk) 14:09, 18 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.