Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pinniped/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:GrahamColm 10:02, 14 October 2013 (UTC).

Pinniped

 * Nominator(s): LittleJerry (talk) & Sasata (talk) 19:35, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that after a few months of Sasata and I working on comprehensiveness, prose and sourcing and after a GA by Casliber, it is at least within striking distance of FA. LittleJerry (talk) 19:35, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Procedural cmt: In future pls use when initiating a nomination. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Sasata. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Driveby question why isn't this article just named "seal" (disambiguated appropriately)?—indopug (talk) 05:17, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Pinniped is the preferred term. LittleJerry (talk) 13:53, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * More specifically, pinnipeds are a set of animals that include walruses, sea lions, and seals. Mattximus (talk) 03:17, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Support Comments by Jim well done for tackling this major topic. Looks very comprehensive, but a few comments  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  10:16, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Although Sasata has fixed a few, there are still plenty of duplinks, I suggest you run the script
 * I've now removed all expect one left in for strategic reasons. Sasata (talk) 15:48, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Check that "However" is always justified
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Clade—link in line 1 of lead
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * 1880 monograph.—worth giving title in the text?
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * the Phocidae belongs—"belong"
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * pelage—what's wrong with "fur"?
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * date 18–16 mya—"date to"?
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * thick as several inches—jars a bit when metric is given priority throughout the rest of this scientific article
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Otariids rely on the movements of their heads and necks more than its hind-flippers—mixed number
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The pinniped ear is adapted for hearing underwater, where they can hear—subject is singular "ear"
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * hearing is somewhat reduced in pinnipeds than in many terrestrial mammals—"compared" to rather than "than"
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Before diving, pinnipeds... —lots of collapsing in this para, vary a bit
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * young nurses upside down—"suckle" might be better here
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You have used two different styles to indicate foreign language refs
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You have a mixture of styles for refs with multiple initials (A.B. and A. B.) in at least ref 109
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No further queries, supporting above now  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  05:37, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review (& support)! Sasata (talk) 06:16, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Image check - all OK mostly OK (CC, PD-NOAA, PD-age, OTRS, Flickr with no problems). Sources and authors provided. Just 1 issue (and 2 requests):
 * File:Sea_lion_with_salmon.gif - not OK. (Replaced, new image OK, old image nominated for deletion). (Non-American here) the "Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife" is not part of the Federal US government, is it? PD-USGov doesn't work here (the source website has a clear copyright notice).
 * Replaced. LittleJerry (talk)


 * File:Fish8426_-_Flickr_-_NOAA_Photo_Library.jpg - please add a brief description to the image summary for re-users.
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:16, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * File:Depka.jpg - added English translation for description, please check (is it still alive? I am not sure, what happened in this image). (maybe a better image can be found)
 * Not sure what happened. LittleJerry (talk) 15:16, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not a big deal, but then it's probably not the best image to illustrate "human threats to pinnipeds". Suggest to keep looking for possible improvements.
 * Added more text to make it more relevant to the section. LittleJerry (talk) 22:50, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Infobox collage is OK - all contained images checked. GermanJoe (talk) 08:33, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Review by Quadell

 * Overall
 * Minor MOS-checks: There are no problems with duplicate links or links to disambiguation pages. The infobox and cladogram look fine. All images seem appropriate to their sections, and all captions are appropriate and correctly formatted (with one minor point below). Thanks to GermanJoe for the image check. It's a shame to just have a single note, but it's fine. I can find no problems with the existing entries in the bibliography or the list of external links.
 * I'm rather amazed at the lack of overlinking in an article with this many wikilinks; the only overlinked candidates I can see are pebble and bombs, and those are marginal.
 * Some sentence-fragment captions seem to use a "headline" format that omits indefinate articles ("Harp seal mother nursing pup", "Harbor seal hauled out on rock"), while others use a definite or indefinite article in the predicate ("Leopard seal capturing an emperor penguin", "Performing sea lions being fed at the Memphis Zoo"). In my personal opinion, it would be best to have all sentence-fragment captions use articles wherever they would be appropriate in a complete sentence ("A harp seal mother nursing a pup", "A leopard seal capturing an emperor penguin"), but any consistent format will do.
 * Is it correct to cite Renouf in Renouf (cite #57)? I just haven't run into this before, and I'm unsure the best way to handle it. Would it be better to just say "Renouf (1991), p. 373"? Outside opinions would be welcome here.
 * While six books are in the bibliography, most books are actually listed in the references. (#9, #26, #64, #70, #91, #94, #114, #129, #131, #132, and #154). Why? Wouldn't it be better to move these down to the bibliography?
 * The books in the bibliography have multiple citations to different pages (i.e. short citations), whereas the books listed in the ref list are cited to only a single page (or page range). No need to make the reader look for the citation twice if not necessary. Sasata (talk) 18:31, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Mostly. (Renouf is just used once.) Anyway, if no other reviewer finds it problematic, then it's probably fine. (I'm still not 100% sure which reference format standardizations are mandatory and which aren't.) – Quadell (talk) 19:18, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I hadn't realized Renouf was only used once ... it's been removed from the bibliography now. Sasata (talk) 19:17, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I have performed spotchecks on several sources, and in every case I found the statements fully supported by the sources without plagiarism.
 * The organization seems appropriate, and all aspects of the topic seem to be covered by the article. Nearly all problems are minor proofreading concerns, which I detail below. (By far, the most common problem is the ommision of a comma before a coordinating conjunction that is used to join independent clauses. Examples below will make this clear.)


 * Lead (all resolved)
 * The lead is of an appropriate length, and it effectively sums up all secions of the article. Well done.
 * Commas are needed after "propel themselves through the water", "both air and water", and "typically polygynous".
 * My own stylistic preferences, which I feel obligated to mention, even though they're not obstacles to Featured status:
 * Due to the frequency of parentheses in the lead, I think "which is also the largest carnivoran" would be better outside parentheses.
 * I strongly prefer "tend toward" over the unprofessional-sounding "tend towards", but I confess the "towards" formulation is common and has pedigree.
 * Since "bycatching" is a term many aren't familiar with, and looks like "by catching", this phrase may sound confusing: "pinnipeds are also threatened by conflicts with local people, bycatching and marine pollution". I think it would be clearer to say "pinnipeds also face threats from bycatching, marine pollution and conflicts with local people."
 * I have changed all of these per your suggestions. Sasata (talk) 18:31, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Taxonomy (all resolved)
 * Capitalize "of" in "of the three extant families"
 * Commas are needed after "in the superfamily Otarioidea", "extends between the nasal bones", "divided by a 'secondary spine'", and "relies on its hind-flippers for locomotion"
 * It should be a colon instead of a comma after "Otariids consist of two types". And it would be better to use a colon after "Odobenidae consists of only one living member", instead of a comma.
 * "Five genera and species of sea lion are known to exist" is unclear. It appears you left out a number. Seven?
 * There should be an "an" in front of "everted pelvic bone".
 * It sounds as if the pinnipeds are unable to consider themselves subspecies in the clause "five of the latter lack sufficient support to conclusively consider them as subspecies." One correct rewording would be "five of the latter lack sufficient support to be conclusively considered subspecies."
 * My own stylistic preferences, which I feel obligated to mention (MOSP-WIFOTM):
 * Consider "and in 1811 he gave the name Pinnipedia to both a family and an order" as a possibility. (Less choppy from commas)
 * I find "turning their hind-flippers forward" better than "turning their hind-flippers forwards"
 * Consider using a semicolon instead of a comma after "which consists of the elephant seals, monk seals and lobodontine seals"
 * Consider the sentence "They recommend that the genus Arctocephalus should be limited to Arctocephalus pusillus, and resurrected the name Arctophoca for several species and subspecies formerly placed in Arctocephalus." The "should" is redundant, since it's already a recommendation. Further, it is difficult for the reader to figure out the subject of "resurrected". I would reword the entire sentence as "They recommend that the genus Arctocephalus be limited to Arctocephalus pusillus, and they resurrected the name Arctophoca for several species and subspecies formerly placed in Arctocephalus."
 * I agree with your stylistic preferences, and have tweaked the prose accordingly in this section. Sasata (talk) 19:12, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Evolutionary history (all resolved)
 * "Its teeth were adapted for shearing (like terrestrial carnivorans) and may have stayed near shore more often." I suspect its teeth stayed near the shore about as often as its mouth did. :) Instead, use "(like terrestrial carnivorans), and it may have".
 * The past tense of "shrink" is "shrank", not "shrunk".
 * Commas are needed after "both the fore-flippers and hind-flippers", "Zalophus, Eumetopias and Otaria diverged next", "have existed since at least 15 mya", and "as the Paratethys shrunk/shrank".
 * You define mya twice in the same paragraph. Once is fine.
 * MOSP-WIFOTM:
 * I find this confusing: "Enaliarctos of late Oligocene/early Miocene (27–18 million years ago) California closely resembled...". How about this? "Enaliarctos, a fossil species from late Oligocene/early Miocene (27–18 million years ago) California, closely resembled..."
 * In the same sentence, I find the comma structure confusing. How about this? "...resembled modern pinnipeds; it was fully aquatic with a flexible spine, and its limbs were modified into flippers."
 * Consider surrounding "Prototaria of Japan and Proneotherium of Oregon" with em dashes (which you use elsewhere) instead of commas.
 * All fixed. Sasata (talk) 19:24, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Anatomy and physiology (all resolved)
 * You almost always omit the serial comma, but use one in "Pinniped skulls have large eye orbits, short snouts, and a constricted interorbital region."
 * Same with the sentence beginning "Compared to other carnivorans..." (although you might argue that comma is needed for clarity).
 * I think there's a typo in "the thick necks of manes of otariids". Should that be "necks and manes"?
 * There is a misplaced modifier in "In species that live on ice, young pups have thicker coats than adults, known as lanugo." After all, the adults are not known as lanugo. There are various ways to fix this, but my favorite would be to mention lanugo only in the next sentence: "The individual hairs on the coat, known as lanugo, ..."
 * A comma is needed after "thin layer of blubber".
 * MOSP-WIFOTM:
 * I would reword "Overall, they tend to be larger than other carnivorans (the southern elephant seal is the largest carnivoran)" to "Overall, they tend to be larger than other carnivorans; the southern elephant seal is the largest carnivoran."
 * The sentence starting "Some species like ribbon seals" could be confusing. I would reword as "Some species, such as ribbon seals, ringed seals and leopard seals, have ..."
 * Since "make up" can mean so many things, I would use "It can constitute up to 50% of a pinniped's body weight" or "It can comprise".
 * In the very next sentence, I would replace "make up" with "compensate" (before "for this with their thick lanugos").
 * The sentence beginning "Pups are born with a thin layer of blubber" would be clearer if it said "Pups are born with only a thin layer of blubber", so that the reader understands what is being made up for.
 * Fixed. Sasata (talk) 19:24, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Locomotion (all resolved)
 * Commas are needed after "Seals are more agile and flexible", "Fore-flipper movement is not continuous", and "easier for phocids on ice".
 * You say "otariids, like the California sea lion, are capable of", but only some otariids are capable of such a turn, correct? (The source only supports "some".) If so, you should say "some otariids, such as the California sea lion, are capable of". (I replaced "like" with "such as", since the California sea lion is not just like an otariid; it is one.)
 * MOSP-WIFOTM:
 * "They tend to be slower swimmers" would be clearer as "Pinnipeds tend to be slower swimmers", since elbows and ankles were most recently mentioned.
 * Should "kn" be linked to Knot (unit) on first use?
 * In "are capable of bending their necks backwards far enough to reach their hind-flippers and can make dorsal turns", the "can" is so far from the subject that it could be unclear. Would this work? "to reach their hind-flippers, allowing them tomake dorsal turns"
 * Unlike the entire article up to this point, the second paragraph of "Locomotion" is full of very short sentences. Can you spice up the prose a bit here?
 * How's this? Sasata (talk) 19:35, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellent. – Quadell (talk) 20:29, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Senses (all resolved)
 * Commas are needed after "The lens is mostly spherical", "the pupil is typically pear-shaped", "dilation varies little", "reduced in bright light", "have limited color vision", and "as many sound frequencies as humans"
 * "Deep-diving", not "deep- diving".
 * MOSP-WIFOTM:
 * You say "In species like harbor seals and California sea lions, which live in shallow water, dilation varies little". I think this would be clearer as "In species that live in shallow water, such as harbor seals and California sea lions, dilation varies little".
 * "This helps them see in darkness" would be clearer as "This helps them see in virtual darkness" or "in low-light conditions."
 * ""their hearing sensitivity is overall weaker" would be better as "their hearing sensitivity is weaker overall".
 * Consider surrounding "the harbor seal, California sea lion and northern elephant seal" with em dashes (which you use elsewhere) instead of commas.
 * I think a semicolon would be better between "play a role in navigation" and "spotted seals appear".
 * Done. Sasata (talk) 19:47, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Diving adaptations, Thermoregulation, and Sleep (all resolved)
 * "Veins containing cool blood from the body extremities surround an artery with warm blood received from the core of the body" isn't clear. "An artery" implies just one. Should it be "each artery"? It also sounds as if the veins surround the artery with warm blood, but the artery contains the warm blood. It needs to be reworded in some way.
 * Does this help clarify? Sasata (talk) 20:09, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Perfect! – Quadell (talk) 20:36, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * MOSP-WIFOTM:
 * Consider the sentence "While overemptying of the lungs in humans classifies as a lung disease and terrestrial mammals are in general unable to empty their lungs, pinnipeds can reinflate their lungs even after complete respiratory collapse." It's not incorrect -- it uses a structure of "While [independent clause] and [independent clause], [independent clause]" -- but it still feels awkward to me. Personally, I don't find the human lung disease information particularly relevant. I would probably reword it as "While terrestrial mammals are generally unable to empty their lungs, pinnipeds can reinflate their lungs even after complete respiratory collapse." It's easy to parse, and gives all important information.
 * I would say "seals can tolerate large amounts of lactic acid" instead of "they can tolerate large amounts of lactic acid", since "they" is uncertain.
 * I would change "which adds a layer" to "adding a layer".
 * Done. Sasata (talk) 20:09, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed all. LittleJerry (talk) 20:45, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Distribution and habitat (all resolved)
 * A comma is needed after "Most species inhabit coastal areas".
 * You say "The Baikal seal is the only freshwater species, though two subspecies of ringed seals live in landlocked lakes in Russia close to the Baltic sea." If these are freshwater lakes, then it would be best to specify this. (If they are not, then I don't understand the sentence.)
 * Does the last sentence of this section mean the species live on fast ice or pack ice? I'm not sure how they "utilize" it.
 * MOSP-WIFOTM:
 * Although it's not incorrect, I would reword "Two species, the Caspian seal and Baikal seal, are found in large landlocked bodies of water (the Caspian Sea and Lake Baikal respectively)" as "The Caspian seal and Baikal seal are found in large landlocked bodies of water (the Caspian Sea and Lake Baikal, respectively)."
 * Due to the preponderance of "ands" and "ors", I would reword the penultimate sentence as "Pinnipeds may move further inland and rest in sand dunes or vegetation, and may even climb steep cliffs."
 * Fixed all. LittleJerry (talk) 20:45, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Behavior and life history (all resolved)
 * Both here and in the lead, you mention "diving at depths of so-and-so". It seems to me that "diving to depths of so-and-so" would be more correct, but I'm neither a diver nor a marine biologist. Is "at" a common preposition to use in this phrasing? If not, consider replacing with "to".
 * A comma is needed after "Walruses do not often dive very deep".
 * "Female typically mature" should be "Females typically mature"
 * MOSP-WIFOTM:
 * I would personally prefer "like El Niño or changes in ice cover" over "like El Niño and changes in ice cover".
 * Similarly, I would prefer "during foraging or to avoid predators" over "during foraging and to avoid predators".
 * In my opinion, "the age at which..." is better than "the age in which a pinniped sexually matures".
 * Done. Sasata (talk) 20:19, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed all. LittleJerry (talk) 20:45, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Foraging and predation (all resolved)
 * The 13-year-old boy in me wants you to know that the photo of a steller seal killing a sturgeon is epic. He also thinks that any article that includes the claim "an adult walrus is capable of killing polar bears" deserves to be featured on that basis alone.
 * Commas are needed after "they mostly feed on fish and cephalopods", "more commonly taken by orcas", "The prey often escapes", "have injuries in the hindquarters", and "pups of some fur seal species".
 * Even though you usually omit the serial comma, I think you need a comma after "which specialize on squid" just to avoid confusion about who is eating whom.
 * "bays and rivers", rather than "bays and river"
 * This sentence is confusing: "They are typically hunted by whales in groups of 10 or less but are occasionally hunted by lone individuals or groups of 2–30." (At first it's unclear whether the whales or the seals are in groups. Further, a group of 7 whales is both a group "of 10 or less" and also a group "of 2-30".) If I'm correct in your meaning, you might choose to reword it like this: "They are typically hunted by groups of 10 or fewer whales, but they are occasionally hunted larger groups or by lone individuals."
 * The comma after "another major predator of pinnipeds" is not correct. Perhaps an em dash would work?
 * "was well as active stalking" should be "as well as active stalking".
 * MOSP-WIFOTM:
 * I think it would be clearer if you said "The former behavior is typical when hunting..." rather than "The former behavior is typical with...".
 * "While pinnipeds mostly hunt in the water" would be clearer than "While species mostly hunt in the water"
 * Fixed all. LittleJerry (talk) 20:45, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I fixed a few remaining stragglers. Hope that's okay. – Quadell (talk) 12:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Reproductive behavior (all resolved)
 * "Subadult elephants seals will sneak into female clusters and try to blend in by pulling in their noses." That's adorable! (No change needed.)
 * Commas are needed after "breed on land are usually polygynous", "breeding sites change location each year", "natural breaks in the substrate", "South American sea lion and Australian sea lion", "mounted by an unwanted male", and "attracts other males to the scene".
 * Instead of "This dimorphism manifests itself as larger chests and necks, and longer canines and denser fur", it would be better to say "This dimorphism manifests itself in larger chests and necks, longer canines and denser fur".
 * MOSP-WIFOTM:
 * In my opinion, the sentence "The type of mating system depends on the substrate where mating takes place" is confusing and doesn't add anything to the paragraph. If the sentence were omitted, no information would be lost, and I feel the paragraph would scan better. (If the sentence is kept, I can't think of a way to reword it that would be less awkward.)
 * Instead of "Few islands are favorable for breeding and thus are particularly crowded", consider "Few islands are favorable for breeding, and those that are are particularly crowded."
 * Consider starting a new paragraph just before "Other seals, like the walrus and most phocids..."
 * Done. Sasata (talk) 19:10, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Birth and parenting (all resolved)
 * There are a few subtle problems with the sentence "All species go through delayed implantation, which puts the embryo in suspended development for as long as a few weeks or several months before it is implanted in the uterus." (The subject for "puts" isn't clear, and I'm not sure it's the right word. Further, "as long as ... weeks or ... months" is logically troubling.) What would you think of this? "All species go through delayed implantation, wherein the embryo remains in suspended development for weeks or months before it is implanted in the uterus."
 * No comma is needed after "they learn how to dive".
 * A comma is needed after "with its head held up", and "inexperienced young as they learn to swim"
 * MOSP-WIFOTM:
 * "may last one day to two weeks depending on" would be a little better as "may last anywhere between a day and two weeks, depending on"
 * Done. Sasata (talk) 19:10, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Communication and Intelligence (all resolved)
 * Commas are needed after "are more vocal on land" and "when patrolling under the ice"
 * MOSP-WIFOTM:
 * "are comparable to songs (like those of birds and whales)" would be better as "are comparable to birdsongs and whalesongs".
 * I think it would be better to link Contact call at the words "mother-pup attraction calls", rather than at "contact".
 * Done. Sasata (talk) 19:10, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Cultural depictions and In captivity (all resolved)
 * "but is recused by her father" was supposed to be "but is rescued by her father", I think.
 * In "One of the earliest Ancient Greek coins depicted", it should be "depicts", so long as at least one of the coins still exists.
 * A comma is needed after "depicted/depicts the head of a seal" and "that have evolved to be migratory".
 * Since not all European zoos or U.S. zoos have the same format, you should add qualifiers like "typically" and "usually" to the relevant sentences, like so: "In Europe, exhibits typically have rocky backgrounds ... In the United States, sea lions are usually kept in pens with ..." (That's more in line with what the source says.)
 * MOSP-WIFOTM:
 * "Various human cultures have depicted pinnipeds for millennia" would be better than "Various human cultures depicted pinnipeds for millennia".
 * Fixed all. LittleJerry (talk) 20:56, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I added the commas. – Quadell (talk) 21:39, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Conservation and management issues (all resolved)
 * You should use em dashes instead of en dashes around "the Japanese sea lion and the Caribbean monk seal" to be consistent with other parts of the article. Since that entire sentence is so long and winding, it would be preferable to break it up. Also, the parenthetical lists need "and"s where appropriate. The subsequent sentence would be improved with em dashes as well. Once all these are implemented, the sentence could be rewritten as follows:
 * Two species&mdash;the Japanese sea lion and the Caribbean monk seal&mdash;are recently extinct, and ten more are considered at risk. These include those ranked as "Critically Endangered" (the Mediterranean and Hawaiian monk seals), "Endangered" (Galápagos fur seal, Australian sea lion, Caspian seal and Galápagos sea lion), and "Vulnerable" (northern fur seal, hooded seal and New Zealand sea lion). In addition, three species&mdash;the walrus, the ribbon seal and the spotted seal&mdash;have a "Data Deficient" ranking.


 * Commas are needed after "phocids are made into coats", "one year of age between September and February", "Seal killings continued", "common around the Japanese islands", "methods to control the animals", and "negative effect on the fishing industry".
 * "just as important of an industry" should be "just as important an industry"
 * In "Sea lions also conflict with fisherman as they often steal their catches", it isn't clear which group is "they" and which is "their". (Also, it should be "men" instead of "man".) After reading the source, I think it would be best to reword it as "Sea lions also conflict with fishermen, since both depend on the same fish stocks" (or "compete for the same fish stocks").
 * In the next sentence, "their" is unclear. I would change it to "the MMPA was amended to permit the lethal removal of sea lions from...".
 * MOSP-WIFOTM:
 * "Seal hunting by humans existed" would be better as "Seal hunting by humans has existed".
 * I think it would be better to remove the "As such" from "As such, some anthropologists argue..."
 * "The Government of Canada has permitted the hunting of harp seals" would be better as "The Government of Canada permits the hunting of harp seals".
 * I would prefer "significant" to "considerable" in "is a considerable cause of mortality"
 * Fixed all. LittleJerry (talk) 20:56, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, don't forget my issue with captions, as mentioned in the "Overall" section at the top. – Quadell (talk) 20:11, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 21:03, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Support This article fully deserves FA status. The article is incredibly thorough and meticulously referenced, with only high-quality sources used. Each of my spotchecks showed that the source fully backs up the statement without plagiarism. The article has an admirable global perspective, and deals with controversies in ways that avoids NPOV problems. In addition, the nominators have been great to work with and have fixed all problems with impressive quickness. – Quadell (talk) 21:44, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your in depth review and support. LittleJerry (talk) 22:14, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Cwmhiraeth Like Quadell, I think this an excellent, well-written and researched article. A few points I noticed:
 * I have been led to believe that the lead is supposed to be a summary of the rest of the article in easy-to-understand language to draw readers in. As a summary it seems fine but it uses a lot of jargon with which the general reader may be unfamiliar.
 * "While they were historically thought to have descended ..." - It is not clear what "they" refers to here.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The word "carnivoran" may not be familiar to readers. I think their should be an explanation of how it differs from a carnivore.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It seems a bit odd you using the terms otariids, phocids and walruses in the same sentence.
 * I don't understand. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, otariids and phocids are derivatives of scientific names while walruses are common names. It might have been more logical to use "odobenids" instead of walruses. However you do use these names consistently throughout the article except once in the lead when you use "otarids". Cwmhiraeth (talk) 20:12, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed that. LittleJerry (talk) 23:52, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * You mention "fat, or blubber" but you don't explain vibrissae.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "... other than the walrus, all species have fur coats." - This made me laugh, a seal wearing a fur coat.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "Pinnipeds are typically polygynous, although the degree of polygyny varies with the species. Land-breeding species tend toward greater polygyny while ice-breeding species are less polygynous." - over use of an unfamiliar technical term.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "Male pinniped strategies for reproductive success vary between female defense, territorial defense and lekking." - These concepts are too difficult for the lead without further explanation.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "Besides exploitation, pinnipeds also face threats from bycatching, marine pollution, and conflicts with local people." - Ditto.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * " and the bronchus are divided anteriorly." - Shouldn't this be "bronchi"?
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "While sea lions and fur seal have historically been considered separate subfamilies ..." - "seal" should be in the plural.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "Phocids have thickened mastoids, enlarged entotympanic bones, an everted pelvic bone and a massive ankle bone." - Why the mixed plural and singular body parts?
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "Monachinae, which consists of the elephant seals, monk seals and lobodontine seals; and Phocinae, which includes the genera Pusa, Phoca, Halichoerus, Histriophoca, Pagophilus, Erignathus and Cystophora." - I am not keen on using vernacular names in one half of this sentence and scientific names in the other.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Be consistent in your use of mya and million years ago.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "... and it may have stayed near shore more often." - More often than what?
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "Enaliarctos was capable of swimming with both the fore-flippers and hind-flippers, but it may have been more specialized for the former." - This could be better expressed.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "... diet like the modern walrus. Walruses further diversified ..." - Best not to finish one sentence and start the next with the same word.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "the Caspian sea." - Capitalise Caspian Sea.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
 * To be continued. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:43, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "external ear flaps, small tails, rounded heads, flexible necks and limbs modified into flippers." - Tails would be better elsewhere in this list.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "they lack carnassials and they tend to be fewer in number " - The word "they" is used twice here and each time refers to a different subject.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "... the small and large intestines; the large intestine is comparatively short" - Perhaps substitute "the latter" for the second mention of the large intestine.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "the increased volume of the digestive tract serves as an extended storage compartment during submersion." - Storage for what?
 * added "for partially digested food". Sasata (talk) 21:51, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "Unlike other marine mammals, pinnipeds have two pairs of flippers on the front and back, the fore-flippers and hind-flippers." - this is confusing.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "They also lack arrector pili so their fur can lay flat as they swim." - "lie flat"?
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "In addition, seals can tolerate large amounts of lactic acid." - Perhaps you could explain the significance of this.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:29, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "To keep their blood pressure stable, phocids have an elastic aorta that stores some energy of each heartbeat and releases it." - do you mean "and later releases it"?
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
 * To be continued. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 20:12, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "Some species also exploit man-made structures like piers, jetties, buoys and oil platforms." - How do they do this?
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:15, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "Pinnipeds may move further inland and rest in sand dunes or vegetation, and may even climb steep cliffs." - I see there is a reference for this hard to believe statement. Should it really be "low cliffs" or something similar?
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk)


 * "Travelling seals may use various features of their environment to reach their destination including geomagnetic fields, water and wind currents, the position of the sun and moon and the taste and temperature of the water." - Currents might help them but I guess you mean they use these things to guide them towards their destination.
 * Yes. LittleJerry (talk) 17:15, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I think you should start a new paragraph for the topic of diving.
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 17:15, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "The prey often escapes, and seals are often seen with shark-inflicted wounds." - Two "often"s in one sentence.
 * Reworded. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "Ringed seals build dens underneath fast ice to hide from predators like polar bears." - Explain or link "fast ice".
 * Already linked above. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "Leopard seals typically target crabeater pups, which form an important of their diet from November to January." - Missing word.
 * Fixed. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * In the "Foraging and predation" section, is not man a major predator? (I think it should be mentioned here even if dealt with in more detail in the "Human relations" section.)
 * "Few islands are favorable for breeding, and those that are particularly crowded." - Unsatisfactory sentence.
 * Reworded. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "Since the land they breed on is fixed, females of these species return to the same sites year after year." - Could be better expressed.
 * Tweaked prose. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "Seals that breed on ice or water tend to have little or no sexual dimorphism" - They can't breed "on water".
 * Fixed. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "The females can usually move freely between territories and males are unable to coerce them, but some species, like the northern fur seal, South American sea lion and Australian sea lion, can successfully contain females in their territories and prevent them from leaving." - The second half of this sentence has no suitable subject.
 * The subject is "some species". Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * So you think that "Some species can successfully contain females in their territories and prevent them from leaving." is a sensible sentence? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 17:15, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I fail to see what is wrong with it ... could I have a hint? Sasata (talk) 19:40, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Outside perspective: it feels vaguely odd to say that the entire species contain females (which are a part of the species). Would this rewording work? "... but in some species ... the males can successfully contain females ..." – Quadell (talk) 20:25, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreeing with Quadell - you could have said "Males of some species can successfully contain females in their territories and prevent them from leaving." Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:52, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:22, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "When their mothers are away, the pups will fast." - While I think.
 * Changed. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "Walruses are unique in that mothers nurse their young at sea. Young accompany their mothers after they learn how to dive at five months old. Lactation in this species lasts two years, which suggests that the young need time to learn aquatic nursing." - They obviously nurse the young on land at first. I think the second sentence is a non-sequiter. I would think they need the long period for the young to learn to feed and live independently.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:16, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "Male vocals are deeper than female vocals." Too many "vocal"s in this sentence and paragraph.
 * Reworded several. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "These differences are likely important for mothers and pups who need to remain in contact in crowded beaches." - "on crowded beaches" would be better.
 * Done. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "Land-breeding species tend towards individual males mating with a greater number of females a season while males of ice-breeding species mate with less" - Back in the lead section, this sentence needs rewording.
 * "Pinnipeds are typically polygynous, although the degree of polygyny varies with the species." - Still in the leaf, this sentence needs to be more accessible.
 * "Some species are even serially monogamous." - ditto.
 * "Male pinniped strategies for reproductive success vary between defending females, depending territories that attract females and preforming ritual displays or lekking." - ditto.
 * I have reworded, trimmed, or otherwise edited these sentences. Sasata (talk) 19:40, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I will stop there as Cryptic C62 has looked in detail at the "Human relations" section. I look forward to supporting the candidacy soon. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 15:30, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Now supporting this candidacy on grounds of prose and comprehensiveness (apart from the Human relations section which I have not studied). Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:52, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank-you Cwmhiraeth, for helping to tighten up the article! Sasata (talk) 04:20, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Resolved comments on Human relations


 * "There are even stories of people mating with selkies in their human form." Unnecessary. I suggest deleting it. Also, why "even"? Appropriate wording for a kids' book, but not an encyclopedia article.
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "Seals are also of great importance in the culture of the Inuits, who depend on them for survival." How so? Food, pelts, transportation?
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The Sedna story could probably be cut down a bit. At the very least, a consistent tense needs to be adopted; bouncing back and forth between past and present just doesn't work.
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Regarding the In captivity subsection: do countries other than the US exist?
 * It talks about Europe too. Only Europe and the US are discussed in the source. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * So then other sources should be investigated. The caption for File:Kobe oji zoo 2009 April 22.jpg states that the photo was taken at a zoo in Japan. Surely there must be some sourcing that can be used to substantiate this, no? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I got confused by this one. I thought you meant what seal facilities where like in other places besides Europe and US. It does mention zoo and aqua in other places that have seals but only gets into detail on the makeup of US and European exhibits. Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 19:15, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I see both "U.S. Navy" and "US naval".
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem was the inconsistent punctuation. I've gone ahead and fixed it. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "The Marine Mammal Center in California cares for sick or injured pinnipeds and releases them back into the wild." Why was this arbitrarily tacked onto the end of a paragraph about the U.S. Navy?
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't seem any better placed at the end of a paragraph about exhibits, either. Are there other facilities similar to the Marine Mammal Center? If so, perhaps they could be described together in their own paragraph. If there's nothing notable to say about them, it may be better to just cut this altogether. Either solution would be better than shoving the sentence into unrelated paragraphs. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 19:15, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "These species, which depend on sea ice habitats in the Northern Hemisphere" It's not clear what "these species" refers to. It could be the three data deficient dudes, or all of the species mentioned in the previous two sentences.
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "The decline of Steller sea lions in Alaska since the 1970s has been subject to much debate." Debate about what? Could be the severity of the decline, or the cause, or any number of other things.
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "The scale of seal harvesting decreased substantially after the 1960s." Why?
 * Source doesn't say. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Then other sources need to be investigated. If this phenomenon is notable enough for someone to have written about it, surely it must also be notable enough for some attempt at an explanation. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Added "after the Canadian government reduced the length of the hunting season and implemented measures to protect adult females." Sasata (talk) 19:06, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "However, Weddell seal hunting is prohibited if the animal is over one year of age between September and February" Confusing word order. Should probably say "However, Weddell seal hunting is prohibited between September and February if the animal is over one year of age", unless I have misinterpreted this.
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

-- Cryptic C62 · Talk 02:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Graham Colm (talk) 20:53, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.