Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Portraits of Odaenathus/archive2

Portraits of Odaenathus

 * Nominator(s): Attar-Aram syria (talk) 02:30, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Odaenathus king of Palmyra is a much celebrated figure in Roman history, credited with saving the Empire from the Persian monarch Shapur I. Sadly, we do not know how he looked like, but we do have portraits that are more likely to represent him than others. Some of those sculptures are lost, and we only have photos of them. This article traces every single possible depiction of the king, and clarify what portraits do not represent him despite being promoted as such more than the ones that might be actual depictions. The article is definitely for lovers of obscure artifacts and antiquities, and was copy-edited by a member of the copy-edit guild to guarantee its reading quality. This is the second attempt after the first one few months ago failed to attract more than one reviewer.Attar-Aram syria (talk) 02:30, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Comments by Dudley

 * I would have a better portrait for the lead image.
 * "he defeated the Sasanian emperor of Persia Shapur I". Persia Shapur I is MOS:SEAOFBLUE.
 * "besieged him in his capital Ctesiphon in 263". If you mention the siege, you should say what the result was.
 * The account of Odaenathus's life in the first paragraph is brief and unsatisfactory. I suggest that it would be better to provide a summary of the lead to Odaenathus for the portrait article.
 * "which is fitting of Shapur's description in the thirteenth Sibylline Oracle" This is ungrammatical. Maybe "which fits Shapur's description in the thirteenth Sibylline Oracle".
 * More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 22:18, 4 June 2020 (UTC)


 * "presided over Palmyra's apogee". This is unreferenced and controversial. Most historians would say that the apogee was under Zenobia.


 * "Mosaic panels found in Palmyra might have a depiction of Odaenathus" I am not clear what the purpose is of this sentence. They might have a depiction of anyone.


 * "Odaenathus belonged to an important Palmyrene family and became the ruler "ras" of Palmyra in the 240s." This is vague. What does "ras" mean? Was he appointed "ras" by the Roman emperor?


 * "After a successful campaign in 263, where Odaenathus besieged the Persian capital Ctesiphon,[5] and resulted in the eviction of the Persians out of the Roman provinces they conquered,[6] he assumed the title of King of Kings in 263 and declared his son Herodianus co-ruler." This is ungrammatical and clumsy. Maybe "In 263 Odaenathus besieged the Persian capital Ctesiphon[5] and evicted the Persians out of the Roman provinces they conquered.[6] In the same year he assumed the title of King of Kings and declared his son Herodianus co-ruler."


 * The more I read of this article the more doubtful I am that Wikipedia is the right place for it. It is too technical for a general readership, and it is very unlikely that specialists will come across it. Have you tried submitting it to a scholarly journal? Dudley Miles (talk) 14:02, 6 June 2020 (UTC)


 * "photos of it survive". I think you should say "photographs".


 * "Alexander the Great of Macedon". I do not think you need "of Macedon".


 * "This tessera is at the museum in Damascus". Should be "This tessera is in National Museum of Damascus. Similarly the next two tesserae should be described as "in Damascus Museum".


 * "on macroscopic observations". What does this mean?


 * At the start of the article "the king of Palmyra from 260 to 267". This should be 260 to 267 CE (or AD). Dudley Miles (talk) 11:30, 8 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Support. Looks fine now. You might try submitting the article to the WikiJournal of Humanities at . This accepts submission of Wikipedia articles and publishes them after peer review by experts. Dudley Miles (talk) 17:53, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

FunkMonk

 * So now that image we found on Flickr has finally come to good use! I'll review soon. FunkMonk (talk) 17:07, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Link names of places and people in captions?
 * Mention museums in all captions for artifacts?
 * There are some duplinks.
 * Link Palmyrene kingdom, Vaballathus, Herodianus, Hairan, and Heracles too in captions? FunkMonk (talk) 21:50, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Link Palmyrene kingdom, Vaballathus, Herodianus, Hairan, and Heracles too in captions? FunkMonk (talk) 21:50, 22 June 2020 (UTC)


 * "Odaenathus belonged to an important Palmyrene family and was elected as "ras" (lord) of Palmyra by the city's council in the 240s." Quite a few names and term here that are not linked at first mention in the article body. I wonder if ras should link to anyone, would Rais be misleading?


 * "As a Roman city on the borders with Persia, Palmyra was affected by the constant war between the two empires,[3] which culminated in 260 with the defeat and capture of the Roman emperor Valerian by the Persian Sasanian emperor Shapur I" Here Roman is only linked at second mention, and could Shapur I be linked?


 * "assumed the title of King of Kings" King of Kings also has an article, wonder if it is relevant.


 * "Germanic raiders" Link?


 * "A few small clay tesserae" Link term?


 * It seems most of the intro is a repeat of the overview section, more so than a summary about the subject itself, which are the portraits? I wonder if it could be more balanced?


 * "Depicting a "strong, severe personality"" According to who? Such direct quotes should probably get in text attribution.


 * "and the Istanbul specimen is 40 centimetres" Isn't specimen more properly used for biological examples?


 * "Ingholt concluded that the heads should be dated to 250, and represent Odaenathus I" Represented?


 * Any info on where and when the Copenhagen and Istanbul heads were found?


 * "Three head sculptures were excavated from a hexagonal tomb in Palmyra's northern necropolis by its head of antiquities, Khaled al-As'ad" Dates?


 * Having read a few of the first examples, it is unclear to me when and by who each was claimed to depict Odaenathus, maybe it could be stated clearer for each of them?


 * It is also a bit difficult to figure out where to look for when these claims were doubted, and where one overall section begins and ends. Maybe this would become clearer if you could make more top level sections so that for example limestone portraits are broken more clearly away from Marble portraits with a line, so that the conclusion section is more easily seen as belonging within the former section? Then also the Tesserae portraits could begin after a line as their own section, etc.? In that regard, the "Portraits" top level section is perhaps redundant, since the article is already called Portraits of Odaenathus?


 * "drawing on exclusively on macroscopic" First on is unnecessary.


 * "found a material indicating the presence" Not sure if the a is necessary.


 * "Mosaic of the tiger hunt" You put this title in italics and with capitals in the article body, shouldn't it be in the caption too?


 * "the tigers are Panthera tigris virgata and were once common in the region" maybe ", which were once common"?


 * Yu link Hellenistic at the last instead of first mention.


 * "he most likely portraits are two marble heads depicting a man in a royal diadem, and an eastern royal tiara, in addition to Palmyrene tesserae of a bearded king wearing a diadem." I think this could maybe also be made clearer in their individual sections?


 * Support - nice to see an article from you strictly about art also! I think the new section layout makes the article much easier to navigate. FunkMonk (talk) 22:21, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Image review

 * All images appear to be free and correctly licensed. However, I am seeing sandwiching in the "In the Damascus and Palmyra museums" (see MOS:IMAGELOC). buidhe 03:19, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I fixed the sandwiching myself, as long as the issue does not reoccur, the image review can be considered passed. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  21:30, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I fixed the sandwiching myself, as long as the issue does not reoccur, the image review can be considered passed. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  21:30, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Coord note

 * I don't see a source review and I'm going to add this to the urgents list for another comprehensive review. Also over the image concerns, are you satisfied? --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:43, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

SG notes
I fixed a surprising number of faulty hyphens to WP:ENDASHes ... there may be more. External images belong in external links. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  04:12, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose, external links do not belong in articles. WP:LAYOUT, sections which contain material outside Wikipedia (including "Further reading" and "External links") should come after sections that contain Wikipedia material.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  13:37, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * --Attar-Aram syria (talk) 14:46, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict after you signed post) Could you please sign your posts? Otherwise, when the Coords read through the FAC, it is difficult to know who said what. Thanks for the explanation on the external images, as I see you discuss each case in text and are subject to the exemption accordingly.  There has been a serious problem in medical content with the use of external media in articles in inappropriate ways, and my concern was that we not set up a precedent.  I have struck my oppose for this instance.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:47, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * .--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 14:49, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, no prob :) So now that you understand my concern about precedents, let's look at each image separately.
 * OK, no prob :) So now that you understand my concern about precedents, let's look at each image separately.


 * Why is the image of B2727/9127 needed? It isn't specifically discussed in text, and it's not clear (to me) that it differs significantly from the Wikipedia Commons image of B2726.
 * --Attar-Aram syria (talk) 15:34, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * .--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 22:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Presumably the Benaki Museum portrait is the 36361 mentioned in text? Can that info be added to the external image?
 * --Attar-Aram syria (talk) 15:34, 25 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Why do we need five external images from the l'Institut Français d'Archéologie du Proche-Orient  ?
 * --Attar-Aram syria (talk) 15:34, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Best, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  14:57, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Source review
Source review - spotchecks not done
 * Some of the details in the lead don't appear to be cited anywhere - for example, that he ruled with imperial consent


 * How are you ordering multiple works by the same author?


 * Butcher 1996: why not cite this to the book itself, rather than a book review?


 * de Blois: can you verify that the given series name is correct?
 * The Policy of the Emperor Gallienus


 * Fortin: is the given publisher for the original or the translation?


 * Double-check that all non-English publications include language


 * Kollwitz includes a location but most other sources don't


 * What makes Michałowski a high-quality reliable source? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:00, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Johnbod

 * Starting to read through. Looks good at first glance. I did a hyphen run but they seem to have been fixed. Johnbod (talk) 17:32, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * A stronger image at the top would be good.


 * The "Overview" is rather repetitious of the lead.


 * Pretty unclear: "The theory about Odaenathus I's existence was abandoned in 1985, when an inscription was published by the archaeologist Michael Gawlikowski which demonstrated that Odaenathus I was identical to King Odaenathus.[32]

The archaeologist Klaus Parlasca rejected Ingholt's hypothesis, and considered the two heads fragments of a funeral kline (sarcophagus lid)." - Which bits of "Ingholt's hypothesis" - the dating or the subject?


 * Read down to the marbles. More later. Johnbod (talk) 03:06, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Did you want to add anything else, Johnbod? We really need to wrap this on up. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:52, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry, yes. You seem to have enough supports, and I was heading that way, so please don't wait for me, Johnbod (talk) 14:03, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Christie
I'll copyedit as I read through; please revert anything you disagree with.


 * Several limestone head portraits from Palmyra were identified by several twentieth-century scholars as depicting Odaenathus, based on several criteria, such as the size of the portrait and the presence of a wreath. The latter element, however, was not special in Palmyrene portraits, as priests were also depicted with wreaths. Further research on the limestone portraits indicates that these pieces were funerary objects depicting private citizens. This is from the lead.  I think it could be improved as a summary of the "Limestone sculptures" section of the article: it only summarizes the first two sections.
 * It says "these pieces were funerary objects", but that has not been asserted for 36361 or C1519, has it? That's the only point that bothered me.  In fact, now I look again, you never say C1519 was considered by anyone to be a portrait of Odaenathus -- am I missing where you say it? Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 10:51, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * If Schneider thought that C1519 and B 2186-CD 134,62 were both products of the same workshop, did they also express an opinion as to whether they were individual portraits or just both taken from the same model? C1519 obviously has to be included, but I want to understand a little better how the sources get us to B 2186-CD 134,62 being considered a possible portrait of Odaenathus.  I can see that if B 2186-CD 134,62 is considered to be of the same person that C1519 depicts, then Parlasca's opinion can be applied to both heads, but I don't yet see where B 2186-CD 134,62 gets into the picture.  If Schneider thinks they just from the same standard model, why would we conclude they are the same person?  And if we can use Schneider's opinion in this way, I'd mention it in the body of the article, not just in a note. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 01:03, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Based on what you've told me the sources say, I think B 2186 should be left out, though you could put in a note from C1519 saying that B 2186 is a similar head, thought by Schneider to be from the same workshop. Without an explicit opinion either that it is a portrait of Odaenathus or that it and C1519 are the same person, I think including it as a candidate portrait is a step too far. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 21:48, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * If Schneider thought that C1519 and B 2186-CD 134,62 were both products of the same workshop, did they also express an opinion as to whether they were individual portraits or just both taken from the same model? C1519 obviously has to be included, but I want to understand a little better how the sources get us to B 2186-CD 134,62 being considered a possible portrait of Odaenathus.  I can see that if B 2186-CD 134,62 is considered to be of the same person that C1519 depicts, then Parlasca's opinion can be applied to both heads, but I don't yet see where B 2186-CD 134,62 gets into the picture.  If Schneider thinks they just from the same standard model, why would we conclude they are the same person?  And if we can use Schneider's opinion in this way, I'd mention it in the body of the article, not just in a note. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 01:03, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Based on what you've told me the sources say, I think B 2186 should be left out, though you could put in a note from C1519 saying that B 2186 is a similar head, thought by Schneider to be from the same workshop. Without an explicit opinion either that it is a portrait of Odaenathus or that it and C1519 are the same person, I think including it as a candidate portrait is a step too far. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 21:48, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Based on what you've told me the sources say, I think B 2186 should be left out, though you could put in a note from C1519 saying that B 2186 is a similar head, thought by Schneider to be from the same workshop. Without an explicit opinion either that it is a portrait of Odaenathus or that it and C1519 are the same person, I think including it as a candidate portrait is a step too far. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 21:48, 29 July 2020 (UTC)


 * A separate point about this paragraph: you present the refutation of the arguments that these portraits were of Odaenathus as definitive, but I know that academic arguments are not easily killed. Are the refutations cited considered by scholars to be definitive?  Or are they merely the most recent published arguments?  E.g. Kollwitz and Parlasca disagree on one of the sculpted heads; are we sure Parlasca's opinion is accepted?  If not, I think we should be less definite in the language -- e.g. "More recent research" and "these pieces were probably..." and so on.  And there's no counter-argument given for the image in the Benaki museum.
 * OK on the rewording. So the argument against the Benaki portrait is that Vlizos, who suggests it's a portrait of Odaenathus or someone in his family, mentions the resemblance to the Copenhagen portrait, but that portrait is thought by scholars to be funerary and not of Odaenathus, hence nor is the Benaki portrait?  I can see this is a plausible argument but I think we can't put this in the article without a source; it would be synthesis.  But that leaves the Benaki portrait without an explicit refutation.  Could we get around this by pointing out that Vlizos made the case for the Benaki portrait at a time when the Copenhagen portrait was still thought to be of Odaenathus (assuming that's the case, as it seems it must be)? Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 10:59, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, that seems reasonable, but is the Benaki head thought to be part of a sarcophagus lid then? I don't see any reference to the characteristics Gawlikowski mentions, such as a thick neck.  I agree if we make that connection we have enough. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 01:03, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * here, page 212
 * That does it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:43, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * here, page 212
 * That does it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:43, 29 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I'd retitle the "Overview" section "Background" -- it's not an overview of the article; it's background information for understanding the article.


 * I think it's best to avoid "noted" or "noting" when giving archaeologists' opinions; to note something implies that it is unquestionably true, not an opinion. The article uses "note" in several places; some are clearly factual, but a few seem to be opinions:
 * Müller, noting the Copenhagen head's moving posture...
 * Frederik Poulsen noted that the wreath on the Copenhagen head is reminiscent of...
 * Gawlikowski suggested that the heads depicted three men from the same family, and noted that their excavation from a tomb, and their remarkable resemblance to the portraits in Copenhagen and Istanbul, confirm that the latter two were also funerary, and not honorary, objects
 * The authors of the RTP noted a beard -- the next sentence says Gawlikowski disputed that there was a beard, so this is definitely an opinion
 * Gawlikowski considered it likely that the portrait depicts Odaenathus, noting that the lack of a tiara (which made Balty hesitatant in his identification as Odaenathus) is offset by the royal diadem
 * Gawlikowski disagreed, noting that the face is youthful


 * The sculpture has a minimum of individuality with the lack of articulation in the modelling of the face, the expressive vacuity of the eyes, and the rigid, stylized treatment of the facial hair. What follows "with" uses "the" for the three characteristics listed, which sounds wrong because these characteristics have not been previously mentioned. Suggest "The sculpture has a minimum of individuality: the modelling of the face lacks articulation, the eyes are expressionless, and the facial hair is rigid and stylized".


 * Both portraits are influenced by a standard artistic model, which (given the massive, square skull) may have been the Gallienic model for the Damascus portrait; the model was modified to incorporate features typical of Palmyrene portraiture I don't understand this. Why does a massive square skull imply that Gallienus was the model?  And it took me a minute to work out what was meant by "Gallienic model"; it might be better to rephrase to say "Gallienus" specifically.
 * I think I follow you, but I think it could be a little clearer. How about "Both portraits are influenced by a standard artistic model. The massive square skull is similar to the model used for Emperor Gallienus' portraits, so Gallienus' model may have been modified to incorporate features typical of Palmyrene portraiture." Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 11:05, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think I follow you, but I think it could be a little clearer. How about "Both portraits are influenced by a standard artistic model. The massive square skull is similar to the model used for Emperor Gallienus' portraits, so Gallienus' model may have been modified to incorporate features typical of Palmyrene portraiture." Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 11:05, 28 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The layout of the images on the right edge is quite confusing. B2726/9163 is positioned in the "In the Damascus and Palmyra museums" section, so it was a while till I noticed that it's actually from the hexagonal tomb.  I amended the caption to make that unambiguous, but you could also move the "External image" templates to the left of each paragraph, which would make it easier to keep the images with the sections they relate to.
 * A pity there's no better layout, but striking since this does seem to be the best we can do. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:57, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * A pity there's no better layout, but striking since this does seem to be the best we can do. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:57, 28 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I assume no pictures of C1519 or B 459/1662 are available? Or of the Panel of Bellerophon?
 * Here is the Bellerophon- page 1298.


 * Acquired by the Xydi family in 1989, it was moved to the museum a decade later. The head was acquired commercially and no information about its exact excavation location in Syria is known: unless the Xydi family is notable in some way, I'd suggest "The head was acquired commercially in 1989, and no information about its exact excavation location in Syria is known; it was moved to the museum a decade later."


 * How was the tiara portrait lost? I think this article should give the fate of the piece if it can be sourced.
 * Struck, since it's accurate as it stands, but if any details are known (e.g. when it was realized that it was lost) that would be worth putting in a note. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:08, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Struck, since it's accurate as it stands, but if any details are known (e.g. when it was realized that it was lost) that would be worth putting in a note. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:08, 28 July 2020 (UTC)


 * another headdress piece that slipped under the turban's rim: I don't know what "slipped under the turban's rim" means.
 * This photo
 * I think "another headdress piece that would have been framed by the turban's elevated rim" would be clearer, if I understand what you're saying. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:12, 28 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The major reference for Palmyrene tesserae is the Recueil des Tessères de Palmyre (RTP): the source you give for this is fine, but I'd suggest also citing the RTP itself at this point, since a curious reader may want to look for that source.
 * Did you miss this one? Just a suggestion but I think it would help the reader. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 11:12, 28 July 2020 (UTC)


 * similar in style to the portrait of Herodianus on the lead token: is Herodianus' token in the RTP? If so I'd give the RTP number here.


 * Suggest saying "Caspian tiger", which seems to be an uncontroversial name, rather than Panthera tigris virgata; in addition to being easier for a reader to understand, it appears that the separation of the species is debatable so the scientific name may not last.


 * Is there a transcription for the full inscription on the Tiger Hunt mosaic?
 * Source page 1300
 * How about putting this in a note? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:12, 28 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Several of the citations appear to be to chapters in books, but don't have page numbers for the chapters. I don't think it's compulsory but it's certainly a convenience for the reader, so you might consider adding them.  The ones I see are:
 * al-As'ad, Khaled (2002).
 * al-As'ad, Khaled; Briquel-Chatonnet, Françoise; Yon, Jean-Baptiste (2005).
 * Balty, Jean Charles (2005).
 * Charles-Gaffiot, Jacques; Lavagne, Henri; Hofman, Jean-Marc, eds. (2001).
 * Ingholt, Harald (1976).
 * Parlasca, Klaus (1989).
 * Sartre, Maurice (2005).

Most of the above are fairly minor points and I think can be easily addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:35, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Struck several points above; will look at the rest in the morning. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:57, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Replied on the remaining points. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:13, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Support. All points resolved. This is a fine article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:47, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * --Attar-Aram syria (talk) 23:52, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It was a pleasure to read! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:55, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 14:19, 30 July 2020 (UTC)