Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Villa Park/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 01:20, 16 April 2011.

Villa Park

 * Nominator(s): Woody (talk) 10:50, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

This is my first FA in a while. This article is on an association football stadium in Birmingham England. Villa Park is one of the oldest stadiums in England with an intriguing history. The hallowed turf started off life as a kitchen garden for a stately home before becoming an aquarium which soon became part of the main stand. Sadly, that old main stand was demolished but there are a couple of nice stands left. This article was promoted to GA in 2007 but the article has changed significantly since then. It has had a couple of PRs, the most recent in November 2010. It has just had a copyedit to tighten up the prose and I think it is now ready for this FAC. Thanks for your time. Woody (talk) 10:50, 3 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Support with a few comments. The prose is certainly FA standard (I took the liberty of a little tweaking). The images, mainly from Flicker, are are suitably sourced and licensed, but the one of Duran Duran is a waste of space; it could be anybody, the resolution is poor and I would not like to see it in an FA. Will readers understand "hooligan firms"? In the section on the redevelopment of Witton Lane, there is no mention of the houses that were demolished and the small park that has replaced them. Where the homeowners compensated fully, or were they rented homes? (The houses can be seen in the hundred-year-old  photograph). The damage caused by Hitler's bombs needs a citation. Woody, as to be expected, this is an engaging and well-researched contribution, well done. (Note to the closing delegate: I haven't checked the sources, but spot-checks for copy-vio and close-paraphrasing revealed no issues). Graham Colm (talk) 15:55, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Good point on the Duran Duran image, I've removed it now. I've linked hooligan firms to Football hooliganism so that should explain it. Houses were compulsory purchased as part of council plans, added that in. Citation added. Thanks for the review (and your edits!) Woody (talk) 18:54, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Source review Nikkimaria (talk) 20:05, 14 April 2011 (UTC) Oppose mostly on sourcing at this time, although I'm open to revisiting once some of the below has been addressed
 * "Their joint plans included large banked end stands at the Holte and Witton ends and the incorporation of the original Victorian Lower Grounds buildings, including the Aquarium and the newly acquired bowling greens. The outbreak of the First World War severely hampered design and construction efforts." - source?
 * Citation needed tag needs to be addressed
 * "To provide extra space, the upper tiers of the stand extend over Trinity Road, the street that cuts behind the ground." - source? Check for other statements that need sources
 * There are still statements that need to be sourced, for example "Ellis updated the infrastructure, installed a new public address system, carried out plumbing work which included installing new toilets, resurfaced the terraces and building a new ticket office" (also, check grammar). Nikkimaria (talk) 20:13, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm confident that all statements are sourced in the article, it is just a case of moving the sources around so that that is clear. Woody (talk) 21:33, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * FA or The FA? What does it stand for?
 * Bishop and Holt or Holt and Bishop?
 * "Originally a large terraced banking providing accommodation for more than 20,000 spectators, the current incarnation was constructed in 1994–95 and consists of two tiers with no executive boxes. The two tiers are slightly curved in a parabola to provide good sightlines from all seats whilst inside there are three levels of spacious concourse area as well as the Holte Suite, a large hospitality room for supporters" not supported by source, look for others
 * "The roof is a variant of the "King Truss" system and the front third slopes slightly forward ." - remove space before period, check for others.
 * Be consistent in how you notate footnotes to multi-author sources
 * Is there really an author named "Brittle Brittle"?
 * All citations to book sources need page numbers
 * Lots of small inconsistencies in formatting that need to be cleaned up
 * No footnotes to Cox, Russel, Vemplew 2002 or Larkin 2003
 * Why are you including a book of poetry as a reference? The article mentions neither the author nor poetry in general
 * ISBN for Inglis 1984? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:15, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I've sourced all that you have asked for above. I've expanded FA Cup on first usage and used the full usage in refs. I think the reference formatting has been sorted, with my thanks to Graham for that. I removed Cox et al. as it wasn't used. I admit Larkin may have seemed a bit random but it was their originally with good reason. Larkin referenced Villa Park in MCMXIV (Those long uneven lines Standing as patiently As if they were stretched outside The Oval or Villa Park,) and that used to be in the article but I couldn't find a place for it and "In culture" sections annoy me. So, in short, Larkin now gone from refs. Thanks for your review. Woody (talk) 18:54, 3 April 2011 (UTC)


 * You might consider copy-editing the article again, as there are some prose and MoS problems. Besides the one mentioned above, here are a couple of other examples: "included construction of a new 440 yards (400 metres) cement cycle track"; "The Trinity Road Stand" vs "the Trinity Road Stand"; "two–tiered" vs "three-storey". Nikkimaria (talk) 20:13, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see the issue with the 440 yards quote. I have amended the one instance of "The Trinity." The two tiered refers to the stand, it has two tiers. The three storey refers to a structure in the corner, essentially a building. Hence why there are two different words used in the text, they are referring to two different architectural features. Woody (talk) 21:33, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The last isn't tier vs storey so much as hyphen vs dash - why does one use a hyphen and the other a dash? It's an example of WP:MOS inconsistencies. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:10, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I have used changed to hyphens for consistency now though every time I seem to read WP:MOSDASH it is the subject of an edit war so I never really know where to stand round here. Can you point out any other MOS issues that you can see? I thought I had covered them all, but there is usually the odd small thing can slip through. Woody (talk) 23:32, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure. "%" should be spelled out in article text. Don't repeat wikilinks, especially to commoner terms like First World War. Be consistent in whether you provide locations for print publishers. See here for broken links. I'm also still seeing scattered typos - for example, "Its was announced". Nikkimaria (talk) 21:15, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * MOSNUM states that "Where a whole number in a percentage is spelled out, the percent sign is not used" The only % sign in the article is 10% so it is line with MOSNUM as far as I can see. First World War is only linked once but in any case I've always subscribed to only linking twice if the links are miles apart in the article. The great thing about Wikipedia is the ability to link and provide more information. That being said, I don't think the article is overlinked. Have you got any examples of what you think is overlinked in the article? In terms of the deadlinks, I was aware of them but the webarchive has no copies and they were the only supplier of the information and the quote so I don't see what else I can do. Woody (talk) 18:24, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Comments - please allow me to apologise up front for repeating things that may have been brought up at PR or GAN or similar...
 * You could add "association" in front of the first use of "football" so our American, Canadian, Gaelic, rugby etc friends aren't utterly bemused by the code of the game being played here.
 * "Villa previously played at Aston.." confusing, potentially. Perhaps "The team previously..." just to not confuse newcomers early doors with too many Villas...
 * "The 55 Football Association Challenge Cup (FA Cup) semi-finals hosted at Villa Park is a number unequalled by any other stadium." I get it. But it's awkwardly phrased.  Can we reword?
 * It was amended in the copyedit, changed to "Villa Park has hosted more Football Association Challenge Cup (FA Cup) semi-finals than any other stadium, having hosted 55 matches in total." Woody (talk) 22:59, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Do "foreign" readers know what an "amusement arcade" is? A genuine question, not a criticism by the way...
 * Probably not, linked now


 * Possibly think of linking planning permission as well. Is that a UK-centric thing?  I'm not sure...
 * Last lead para possibly needs integration into the first lead para because, as it stands, it's a little odd looking!
 * Last two paras of lead are not referenced at all while first two have four... Is there a reason?
 * No refs in lead now, too much clutter, all referenced in the main body. Woody (talk) 22:59, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Aston Villa FC or Aston Villa F.C. -> consistency.
 * Now consistent


 * Do you need two infobox references for capacity?
 * No, removed sky one


 * " home,[9] The Lower Grounds " is that "The" really capitalised?
 * Not anymore


 * "Sir Thomas Holte" would be tempted to pipelink the whole of the name including the Sir.
 * "record-breaking average crowd " is that cited by ref [9]?
 * Added new ref.


 * Is it "aquarium" or "Aquarium"?
 * aquarium


 * If you put comma separators into spectator numbers, do it for money too, i.e. £2,000.
 * "a new large two-tiered" new, I get, large, how do you quantify that?
 * You can't without doing an analysis of all grounds at the time so I have removed the "large"


 * "bowling greens" now then, our US friends won't get this at all without a link...!
 * "The outbreak of the First World War severely hampered design and construction efforts." did they really hamper "design" efforts? Perhaps so.  Can't imagine architects of football grounds heading off to war, but I guess they probably did back in the day.
 * Back in the day, yes, the majority of men volunteered or were called up. It also affected design efforts due to the lack of materials etc as they were all used for the War effort so they had to come up with alternatives. Woody (talk) 22:59, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


 * "Construction began in April 1922 with the stand partially opened in August 1922" consider replacing one of the 1922's with "that year" to avoid three-peating 1922...
 * "He commented that it was "a ground so finely equipped in every way—and devoted to football—existed."" I know it's a quote, but I don't understand it (grammatically)...
 * Fixed the quote. It is meant to be prefixed with George "had no idea that a ground..." Woody (talk) 22:59, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


 * "a Sunday Times reporter" ST is a work so it should be in italics (and probably linked for our non-UK readers).
 * Ditto Saint Pancras (i.e. link it) otherwise no-one outside of those in-the-know will get the significance of this comparison.
 * " Rinder dusted it off and looked" doesn't read encyclopedically.
 * Changed to "Rinder resurrected it and looked to" Woody (talk) 22:59, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


 * "Somehow, Villa soon acquired..." a bit mystical...
 * Rephrased to "Unusually, given the austerity measures in place at the time," Woody (talk) 22:59, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


 * No need to relink Simon Inglis.
 * "in 1907; The ground " - caption. No need for capital T and "clearly" is up to the viewer, not up to you!
 * " friendly match against Heart of Midlothian." link friendly and note that Hearts are Scottish (for our non-experts).
 * "Holte End, constructed in 1994." no full stop needed.
 * "that all grounds in top divisions convert" a little unclear what this meant. What is "top divisions"?
 * Changed to "top stadia"


 * I think there's a useful link somewhere to all-seater.
 * Linked All-seater stadium


 * "The North Stand saw the addition of 2,900 seats to the lower tier of the North Stand ..." poor repeat of North Stand.
 * Removed


 * "make way for boxes" - would a non-expert know what a box is in this context?
 * Inglis repeated (first name too) with links...
 * "A diagram showing the alignment of stands at Villa Park." no need for the full stop.
 * Don't think you need a cedille in facade. The word has been anglicised enough to go English on it.
 * That was my doing :-ç Graham Colm (talk) 21:50, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I have removed them now (sorry Graham) I couldn't see anything in the MOS that mandates them. Woody (talk) 22:59, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


 * TV->television.
 * "half way line" surely some hyphenation here?
 * "the south west corner" hyphenate south-west.
 * "When completed, the capacity of Villa Park increase to around 50,000. " grammar fail.
 * "Other uses" section repeats Villa Park too frequently in the first couple of paras. Use "the ground" or "the stadium" or similar.
 * turn out -> turn-out.
 * "a venue for popstars, rockstars and evangelical preachers." a little cliched and tabloid. Would consider replacing "popstars, rockstars" with something more neutral.
 * Rephrased to "a venue for musicians from multiple genres as well as evangelical preachers." Woody (talk) 22:59, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


 * World War II or Second World War. I prefer the latter but be consistent.
 * Used Second World War as that is British English (and I prefer it as well)

The Rambling Man (talk) 19:08, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * attendance post war -> post-war attendance.
 * Change the see also to Ground developments to football stadiums in the English football league system.
 * Thank you very much for your review and all the time spent on it TRM. I have done all of the above. I haven't added interspersed "Dones" in between your comments as I think the length of the page might give Sandy a heart attack! (Sorry Sandy ;). Where things needed rephrasing etc I have added in my rephrasing beneath your comment. Thanks again, Woody (talk) 22:59, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Support sorry for the length of my comments...! The Rambling Man (talk) 16:17, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments TRM, I don't mind about the length, they were certainly thorough. Woody (talk) 16:51, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Comments –
 * History: "was immediately mothballed as Villa Park switched to wartime its war time role." Little too much going on at the end, if you know what I mean.
 * Minor, but a comma would be good after first use of Doug Ellis.
 * "a move that caused some controversy amongst Villa fans with some still referring to it as the Witton Lane Stand." Again minor, but "among" would be simpler than "amongst". Same goes with "while" and "whilst" later on in the article. The simpler, the better most of the time.
 * Structure and facilities: Add "the" to "For the start of 2007–08 season"?
 * Future: Decapitalize The in "that the corners between The North Stand...".
 * Other uses: "It was the first English ground to stage international football in three different centuries" and "Villa Park was the first English ground to stage international football in three different centuries" are both in the section's first paragraph. I talk about redundancies all the time, but duplicate sentences are something else.
 * Decapitalize "Boxing".
 * Ref 52 is missing the PDF designation that the other similar links have.  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 01:31, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Done all of those, thanks for the review. Woody (talk) 08:35, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Support. Comments When the go-to author for stadium sources is a Villan, passing my "Inglis test" was never in doubt :) A couple of minor comments:
 * Records section - 1948–49 or 1949–50? 1985–86 or 1986–87? The links could also go to the more specific YYYY-YY in English football article.
 * on 29 December 2009 in a Premiership game against Liverpool – the "Premiership" name stopped being used some time in the middle of the decade.
 * Although rumours have circulated that the corners between the North Stand and the Trinity Road and Doug Ellis Stands will be filled in, these remain unconfirmed by the club Should a rumour merit mention? How certain is the prospect of redevelopment? I'm put in mind of grounds such as Goodison that have had concepts for development around for 10 or 15 years without anyone putting a spade in the ground. Oldelpaso (talk) 21:54, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think it might just about meet the Inglis test! ;) I've sorted the records links, used Premier League for Premiership and I have removed the North Stand sentence altogether. Lerner certainly has the North Stand in his sights as part of his Big Plan. The form of the development in terms of the corners are not so concrete. As part of the World Cup bid this image was used (according to the NOTW). However, the General has stated "The one thing I can tell you is that we will NOT have a 'circular stadium'...nice and filled in and looking like some of the modern 'bowls' that are found in sports today. NO WAY!! That is not the Villa...that is not the English football tradition. We are not interested in looking like the Emirates or anything resembling that. We are the Villa...we are the 'home' of English football...not of the NFL." So, sounds like the corners are up in the air, so until anything concrete emerges in the next few years, safer to just remove speculation. Thanks for the review, Woody (talk) 23:10, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments. Woody (talk) 16:51, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Image review
 * Captions should meet same prose and MoS standards as article text, and should be consistent. For example, Trinity Road or the Trinity Road? Holte End or The Holte End? etc
 * File:Villa_Park_1907.jpg - should note that link is paid/subscription
 * Done and added a link to a non-subscription version of the image as well as a reference for the photographer. Woody (talk) 22:57, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * File:Villa_Park_stands.jpg - what source did you use to create this image? For example, was it based on an aerial photo, a description in a book...?
 * To be honest I just did it from memory though I've added a link to a source for reference now. Woody (talk) 22:57, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * File:Villa_attendance_since_1947.png - what data source was used to create this graph? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:05, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Excellent question. I've asked the author of the image. In terms of the captions I have given them a spruce where appropriate. I think they are all consistent now. Thanks for the reviews. Woody (talk) 22:57, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.