Wikipedia:Peer review/Arsène Wenger/archive2

Arsène Wenger
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I hope to take this to FAC in the coming weeks. Since its last peer review, it has passed a GA nomination and many areas have been restructured and/or expanded. I would really appreciate if someone can have a thorough look at it from top to bottom, or through speed reading suggest if the article needs much copyediting. Thanks, Lemonade51 (talk) 18:14, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Previous peer review
 * Per request on my talk page. I'm not into sports at all, so I can't give you much more than a few general comments
 * Lists and statistics are generally near the bottom of the article. You may want to consider refactoring a bit
 * Is there any reason the links in "further reading" are not used as sources? This would be asked at FAC.
 * They are profiles, written at a time when he was making the news. I don't think they need to be cited, then again I would be happy to remove them if required.
 * I'd suggest trying to avoid one-paragraph sections like "Nancy-Lorraine: 1984–1987"
 * Merged with Monaco career
 * "Shōsha no Spirit (勝者のエスプリ Shōsha no Esupuri?, lit. The Spirit of Conquest in English and L'esprit conquérant in French" - Do you really need the French title?
 * Removed French title
 * File:Arsène Wenger 2008.jpg needs categories
 * File:In Arsene We Trust.jpg looks fine
 * File:Arsene Wenger.jpg looks fine
 * File:Arsène Wenger statue.jpg should have FoP-UK as well
 * File:Arsene-Wenger.jpg looks okay, although the license states that it requires attribution in the thumbnail (may be a hurdle)


 * Sorry I can't do more, but I wouldn't have the topical knowledge to get very far. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

BigDom comments: I have a few queries about his playing career.
 * Firstly, where did you get the stats for Mulhouse and Vauban Strasbourg from, because they're not referenced? Mulhouse were in Division 2 in those days so they're probably available somewhere but I find it hard to believe that the apps/goals for the French DH and DHR (these are both regional leagues, not administered by the FFF) would have been recorded in the 1970s when you can't even find them for that level now. And it seems dubious that a sweeper would have a 1-in-4 scoring record.
 * Have addressed this now, in his career table and infobox and cited where appropriate.


 * In fact the body of the article doesn't even mention either Mulhouse or Vauban as far as I can see and I think it definitely should.
 * Added content and cited.


 * Does AS Mutzig really count as a youth team if he was 20 when he joined? The club played in Division 3 back then which is a senior level. Big  Dom  16:25, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Placed it in senior level. Thank you for your comments. Lemonade51 (talk) 18:33, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

After copyediting the "Early life and playing career" section (hope you don't mind) I have a couple more questions:
 * Regarding the compensation, how can there be 130,000 families in a village of less than 3,000 people? Should it say Alsace rather than Duttlenheim? Also, what does this have to do with Arsène Wenger; did he benefit from this money (if he even personally received any of it)?
 * Removed it, given that it has not much bearing in his life.


 * Wenger didn't really follow Hild to Vauban in 1975; Hild had already been appointed as the manager there the previous year, so this probably needs rewording.
 * Reworded


 * "In 1978, Wenger turned professional" - According to the book The Professor (page 11), he remained an amateur during his time at Strasbourg so he could continue at university. In any case, players don't turn professional by being selected for their first match, professionality simply describes what kind of contract the player has.
 * Rephrased to playing in the top-flight for the first time. Feel free to tinker with the intro's "...began his professional playing career" bit.

I have to go out now, but I'll try and look through the rest of the article later. Big Dom  10:32, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Comments
 * "Duttlenheim were paid DM 250 million" would link the currency you are using
 * "...once in the UEFA Cup" Link UEFA Cup
 * "...than in the previous campaign"
 * "Striker Mark Hateley joined from Milan..." would link Milan
 * You have Milan and A.C. Milan in different paragraphs be consistent
 * Any chance you could expand the Grampus eight, its a bit lacking in comparison to the other section
 * Conisdering he was only there for the best part of a season and a half, it's very hard to find any new information.

NapHit (talk) 11:56, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "By then Wenger had become a close friend of David Dein..." no mention of a date before so starting the section of with this sentence is confusing
 * "...bought in" should be brought in
 * Quite a few instances of refs not coming after punctuation would try and address this, as I think this may be picked up on at FAC
 * Would also link double to Double (association football) so our friends across the pond understand what is being referred to
 * "The team remarkably scored..." remarkably is a bit sensationalist would remove it
 * "...scoreless final" -> goalless final
 * "Arsenal finished third in the league in 2009-10..." dash should be an en dash
 * " Arsenal sold star talents Cesc Fàbregas and Samir Nasri." would remove star bit POV perhaps key? or something similar?
 * Quite a few instances of items that could be linked for example Bolton and Birmingham in philosophies section, generally if it has not been linked beforehand then I would link it
 * "The sale also funded the club its new training centre at London Colney," typo in this sentence
 * "...in February 2011, Arsenal announced a £46.1m profit, largely due to the departures of Fábregas, Nasri and Clichy." if i'm not mistaken these three players were sold after february 2011 and as the referencing article was published in feb 2012 I think you've made a typo here
 * "has consigned with Wenger forecasting..." consigned should be coincided
 * Fergie and Mourinho can be linked in relations with others section
 * make sure refs use en dashes instead of hyphens I see one instant at the moment with ref 223

Have addressed all points, unless stated. Thank you for the comments. Lemonade51 (talk) 11:06, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Comments
 * Any idea what Wenger's full name is?
 * Have searched high and low and still can't find it.
 * Yeah, I'd stop looking if I was you. Because of French privacy regulations only birth records more than 100 years old are available (unless you're a direct descendant of the person) and I don't know where else you'd find that kind of information. Hardly any French players on Wiki have their full names in the article. Big  Dom  12:55, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

An interesting read with good quality prose, with some fine-tuning I'm sure it'll have every chance of success at FAC. Cheers, Mattythewhite (talk) 03:18, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Height needs citing.
 * I think it would make sense for footnote [a] to be located beside "Various" in the playing position parameter, in addition to it being in the lead.
 * Since his Mutzig and ASPV Strasbourg stats are unknown the apps/goals parameters should be left blank or have question marks, rather than displaying zeros.
 * I don't think the OBE part in the opening sentence needs citing since it's referenced later in the article. Same goes for ref 2, since the sentence's contents are cited later on.
 * The sentence beginning "The nickname Le Professeur" should either be removed or moved/duplicated in the main body of the article as content should not be exclusively in the lead.
 * "he has recently faced criticism" - I'm not sure about the use of recently, as it'll become out of date as time passes.
 * There's quite a few uncited sentences, such as those beginning "He only made twelve appearances for the team", "At the end of the 1984–85 season" and "Wenger won the league in his debut season at Monaco". If this is to pass FAC I think just about every sentence will need citing.
 * Some missing wikilinks - reserve needs linking to reserve team, substitute needs linking to substitute (association football) and Chelsea needs linking to Chelsea F.C. Also, Robin van Persie, Kolo Touré, José Mourinho and Gérard Houllier need linking.
 * "It was there he hired as his assistant, former Valenciennes manager Boro Primorac" - maybe reword to "It was there he hired former Valenciennes manager Boro Primorac as his assistant"?
 * "where his former protégé Dragan Stojković" -> "when his former protégé Dragan Stojković".
 * "winning 13 and drawing five" - before this you've written numbers 10 or larger in words, but here you've used digits. For consistency I'd stick to one style to apply throughout the article.
 * "becoming the first manager since Keith Burkinshaw to retain the trophy" - maybe you could say when this was, to add some historical context?
 * "an accomplishment last achieved by Preston North End 115 years ago" - might be worth mentioning it was the Football League then, not the Premier League.
 * There are a few mentions of appearances in finals without any wikilinks to the relevant articles; e.g. sentences starting "Consolation again came in the FA Cup in 2005", "The club however reached their first Champions League" and "The club reached the League Cup final in February 2007".
 * "In the summer of 2006, Arsenal relocated to the Emirates Stadium, which Wenger said was "vital to our future"" - does he explain why?
 * "defeat to Birmingham City in the 2011 Football League Cup Final following a mix-up in the Arsenal defence" - could be expanded so as to make it clear that this mix-up is referring to the decisive goal.
 * "they made exits in FA Cup and Champions League" -> "they made exits in the FA Cup and the Champions League".
 * Cesc Fàbregas doesn't need linking twice.
 * I'm not quite sure what "Birmingham City had kicked his team" means?
 * sportsman -> sportsmen.
 * "France national football team" - perhaps pipe to "France national team"?
 * "Training sessions, "timed scientifically" lasted no more than 45 minutes" -> "Training sessions, "timed scientifically", lasted no more than 45 minutes"?
 * "largely due to the departures of Fábregas, Nasri and Clichy" - we need Clichy's first name and with a wikilink.
 * Some cases of WP:OVERLINK, e.g. Real Madrid in "He has criticised the long term approach of other clubs, namely Chelsea, Manchester City and Real Madrid", Manchester City in "'Wenger Day' was held on his 56th birthday on 22 October 2005, in a league match against Manchester City" and Patrick Vieira in "most notably from Alex Ferguson, Pep Guardiola, Patrick Vieira and Brian Clough".
 * "Jermaine Pennant, Matthew Upson" -> "Jermaine Pennant and Matthew Upson".
 * "and Jack Wilshere, are still building" - this comma seems superfluous.
 * "Arsenal fielded a 16-man squad that featured no British players—the first time in the club's history" -> "Arsenal fielded a 16-man squad that featured no British players for the first time in the club's history".
 * Which is right, "The Football Association" or "the Football Association"? There's some inconsistency here.
 * "In an joint-interview" -> "In a joint-interview".
 * "when decisions do not go in his team's way" -> "when decisions have not gone his team's way".
 * £2500 -> £2,500.
 * "OBE's" doesn't need an apostrophe.
 * The Soccerbase ref for the "Manager" table only covers his Arsenal stats, meaning his Nancy-Lorraine, Monaco and Nagoya Grampus Eight stats need citing.
 * Some work needed on refs. Newspapers ought to use the location parameter when the location is not part of the paper's title. There also seems to be an overuse of the work parameter; for instance, I don't see why Sky Sports and Arsenal.com need this, when publisher would be sufficient.
 * Believe I have addressed all the comments now, thanks for the feedback. Lemonade51 (talk) 22:34, 18 July 2012 (UTC)