Wikipedia:Peer review/Bedřich Smetana/archive1

===Bedřich Smetana===


 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for June 2009.
 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for June 2009.

This peer review discussion has been closed. I have sweated blood over this, and it badly needs fresh eyes. It's the sad, sad, story of a composer who endured many false starts, failures, disappointments and personal tragedies before finally becoming recognised as the founding father of his nation's music. But by then he was too ill to enjoy his success, inflicted as he was by deafness and madness. He is mostly known for the brilliant Bartered Bride overture – this article tells the rest of his story. Comments welcomed from all quarters, on all aspects. Many thanks, Brianboulton (talk) 18:39, 11 June 2009 (UTC) :Note: Because of its length, this peer review is not transcluded. It is still open and located at Peer review/Bedřich Smetana/archive1.


 * Hi Brian, great article! I have some comments that came to mind after reading it over a couple of times.


 * If he is considered the father of Czeck music, can that be in the very first sentence? It is the most notable fact of his life. Also, I think the lead should contain a sentence about his personal life, marriages and children.
 * Good suggestion. I have extended the first sentence. Brianboulton (talk) 10:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Is there any overlap in information that exists in the main body of the article and in the section at the end entitled "Music"?
 * It's difficult to avoid all overlap. What I have tried to avoid is straight duplication. I'll go through again and see if there is any avoidable repetition; if you have seen examples that you feel need attention, can you dentify them? Brianboulton (talk) 10:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really, I just wanted to make sure it was not too repetitive which can happen in sections like that.  Nancy Heise    talk  14:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The section "Piano Institute" omits that he needed the 400 gulden also because he was penniless and his father would not send him any money. I got this off of another website on Smetana, not a scholarly source so maybe I am not 100% correct. It was just a fact that struck me as important event.
 * It wasn't really that his father wouldn't send him money, rather that the father was by this time fairly impoverished, and couldn't. Also, we don't know that Smetana was "penniless" – he was living from day to day, he was composing, and he did somehow find the funds to start the school without the loan from Liszt. He was obviously short of funds, but Clapham suggests he may have dramatised his circumstances a little. Brianboulton (talk) 10:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Liszt warm reception of his Six Characteristic Pieces was also considered to be a huge inspiration to Smetana at a time in his life when he needed it most. I don't think the article plays this up enough. In a biography, there are key points in a person's life that are significant and these should be highlighted. I think you have done that but I am not sure that this one is pronounced enough.
 * The most significant factor is that, as a result of this dedication, Liszt became a long-term mentor for Smetana. I am adding a sentence to this effect – when I can find the appropriate wording. Brianboulton (talk) 10:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Section headings could be improved. For instance, the section entitled "Sweden" contains more info than his life in Sweden. The section "Early Career" discusses his personal life in the last subsection, not his career . The section headings need to describe what is discussed in each section.
 * Agreed as far as "Sweden" is concerned – changed to "Years of travel". I think "Early career" is OK; even though the section includes some personal information id does so in the context of his career development. However, if you can think of a better heading I'd be pleased to adopt it. Brianboulton (talk) 10:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * How about "Travels"?  Nancy Heise    talk  14:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * On that same note, the section entitled "Summary" under "Music" should really be "Legacy" or something similar.
 * Agreed. I've called it "Reputation" Brianboulton (talk) 10:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That's OK but personally I like "Legacy" better. However its not that important.  Nancy Heise    talk  14:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The lead needs some references, it is totally unreferenced. I know some people like it that way but because Wikipedia is known also as a source of misinformation, I think it is better to reference it.
 * Editors have different views about this. Mine is that, provided everything mentioned in the lead is properly referenced in the text, there is no requirement to cite it in the lead. This has been upheld at many FACs. If you have spotted something in the lead that is not referenced in the text, I will deal with it. Brianboulton (talk) 10:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That's fine, I knew that it has gone through FAC before. It is just that when others, like reporters, go to Wikipedia for information, they have to have references to back up the information they find there. References in the lead are probably more important for contentious articles like Roman Catholic Church than for an article like this so I'm fine with that.  Nancy Heise    talk  14:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I hope that helps, I'll pop in and see if I can offer any more comments as the article developes along through the peer review. Thanks,  Nancy Heise    talk  23:39, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for these comments, and for any others you are able to give. They will all help to improve the article. Brianboulton (talk) 10:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Media review: I think File:Smetana_-_Bartered_Bride_overture.ogg is still copyrighted to Harty's estate for 2 more years. Raising it for discussion at commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Smetana - Bartered Bride overture.ogg. All other media is in the public domain or properly licensed. I will go through the content during the weekend and offer comments after. Jappalang (talk) 06:25, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Jonyungk comments:

A tremendous amount of time and care have been shed on this article, and it shows. It is impeccably cited and well-written overall, and though it is a long article, it reads shorter than it actually is due to its being well-paced. My concern after reading it through a few times is that too many of the sentences are paced the same, which can be fatiguing. A greater variety of sentence lengths would help readability. That is my major concern here. Let me share some examples, along with a few other minor quibbles.

Lead
 * The opening sentence is very long and now even more unwieldly with the addition of Smetana's being the father of Czech music. Perhaps breaking the sentence into two along these lines would help: "Bedřich Smetana (pronounced [ˈbɛdr̝ɪx ˈsmɛtana] (help·info); 2 March 1824 – 12 May 1884) was a Bohemian composer who pioneered the development of a musical style which became closely identified with Czech aspirations to independent statehood. Because of his pioneering efforts, he is widely regarded as the father of Czech music."
 * I've followed your suggestion of breaking the sentence, and found a slightly simpler wording. Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "After his conventional schooling he studied music under Josef Proksch in Prague, where his nationalistic ideals were kindled – he wrote his first patriotic music during the 1848 Prague uprising in which he briefly participated." Maybe this is my mis-read, but I don't see how his nationalistic ideas were kindled, either here or later in the article. It should be spelled out more clearly and possibly cited as well.
 * I've reconsidered this. A re-examination of the sources does not support the assertion that his studies under Proksch kindled his nationalistic ideals. I have therefore withdrawn the phrase. Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "During the eight years of his conductorship Smetana's radical ideas about Czech opera were challenged by conservative factions within the city's musical establishment. This developed into a vendetta against him...." This is explained well later in the article but comes across close to POV here. A citation here would help soften things a bit.
 * I have softened the wording to remove any hint of POV. The events are adequately cited in the main text. Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Apprentice musician

First steps
 * "Smetana was placed temporarily with his uncle in Nove Mesto, where he enjoyed a brief romance with his cousin Louisa, commemorated in Louia's Polka, his first complete composition that has survived.[13]" This sentence seems awkward but a few extra words and a semi-colon would make it seem less terse and flow better: ... with his cousin Louisa; this romance was commemorated ..."
 * Amended along the lines you suggest, but avoiding the repetition of "romance" Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Student and teacher
 * "By the time Smetana completed his schooling, his father's fortunes had declined, and although František agreed that his son could follow a musical career, there would be no financial support.[12][15]" I would break this sentence after "declined" and start the new sentence with "although."
 * Done as you suggest, but I'm slightly concerned at the staccato effect of three successive short sentences. I may tweak this around. Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "Lacking any formal musical training, he needed a teacher, and was introduced by Kateřina Kolářova's mother to Josef Proksch, head of the Prague Music Institute – where Kateřina was now studying.[4][15]" Same here&mdash;a period after "teacher" and a new sentence beginning with "He was introduced...."
 * For the staccato reasons just mentioned, I have left this as it was, but will keep it under consideration. Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "Meanwhile his friendship with Kateřina blossomed; in June 1847, on resigning his position in the Thun household, Smetana recommended her as his replacement." I don't see how these two ideas connect closely ehough to warrant a semi-colon. A period might work as well or better.
 * I have followed your suggestion. Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Early career

Revolutionary Private sorrows
 * The opening sentence is a little long. Why not phrase it this way: "Smetana's concert tour was poorly supported, so he returned to Prague. He made a living there from private pupils and occasional appearances as an accompanist in chamber concerts.[21]"
 * I have let this stand, again mainly to avoid starting a section with three short sentences, two of which begin with "He..."
 * "Despite the good name of the Piano Institute, Smetana's status as a concert pianist was far from assured, generally considered to be below that of contemporaries such as Alexander Dreyschock.[35]" Perhaps "... far from assured; it was generally considered ..."
 * Simplified to: "Despite the good name of the Piano Institute, Smetana's status as a concert pianist was generally considered to be below that of contemporaries such as Alexander Dreyschock." Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "His disenchantment with Prague was growing and, possibly influenced by Liszt or by accounts from Dreyschock of opportunities to be found in Sweden, Smetana decided to seek success there." A period after "growing" and a new sentence beginning with "Possibly influenced ..."
 * I've used a semicolon after "growing". I think this works (though I need to watch my semicolon count)

Years of travel

Göteborg
 * "He also began composing on a more expansive scale; in 1858 he completed the symphonic poem Richard III, his first major orchestral composition since the Triumphal Symphony." Since this comes after two sentence as long or longer, why not use a period instead of a semi-colon after "scale"?
 * Have followed your suggestion

Bereavement, remarriage and return to Prague
 * "In autumn 1861, following the birth of a daughter Zděnka in September, Smetana set out on a concert tour of Holland and Germany, again hoping to secure his reputation as a pianist, but once again he experienced failure, and by the end of the year he was home in Prague.[43]" This is a really long sentence. What about this: "In autumn 1861, following the birth of a daughter Zděnka in September, Smetana set out on a concert tour of Holland and Germany, again hoping to secure his reputation as a pianist. Once again he experienced failure. By the end of the year he was home in Prague.[43]"
 * I have split the sentence, though in a slightly different way. Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "However, the defeat of Franz Josef's army at Solferino in 1859 had led to a more enlightened atmosphere in Prague ..." How was this so? Again, maybe this is my mis-read, but a few words of explanation would help.
 * I have extended a little, and I hope it is clearer. Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

National prominence

Opposition
 * "This issue divided Prague's musical society; musicologist Otakar Hostinský believed that Wagner's theories should be the basis of the national opera, and argued that Dalibor was the beginning of the "correct" direction, whereas the opposite camp, led by Pivoda, supported the principles of Italian opera in which the voice rather than the orchestra was the predominant dramatic device.[53]" This sentence would read better if broken up into two or three smaller ones. Perhaps: "This issue divided Prague's musical society. Musicologist Otakar Hostinský believed that Wagner's theories should be the basis of the national opera, and argued that Dalibor was the beginning of the "correct" direction. The opposite camp, led by Pivoda, supported the principles of Italian opera in which the voice rather than the orchestra was the predominant dramatic device.[53]
 * Have followed your suggestion. Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Final decade

Deafness
 * "Resignation was inevitable; the theatre offered him an annual pension of 1,200 gulden for the continued right to perform his operas, an arrangement which Smetana reluctantly accepted.[77]" Again, these two thoughts don't connect closely enough to me to warrant a semi-colon. Perhaps a preiod after "inevitable"?
 * Have reworded and avoided the semicolon. Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "Money raised in Prague by former students, and by former lover Fröjda Benecke in Göteborg, amounted to 1,244 gulden,[78] which allowed Smetana to seek medical treatment abroad, but to no avail.[53]" Here I would use either a semi-colon or a period: "... amounted to 1,244 gulden.[78] This allowed Smetana ..."
 * Done (two sentences) Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Music

Vocal and choral
 * You mention Harold Schonberg as a "historian," then later as a "music historian." If you are referring to Harold C. Schonberg, he was actually a music critic for The New York Times who also wrote music history. Am I splitting too many hairs here? :-)
 * I'll go through and call him "music critic". There are enough music historians cited in the article! Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "Apart from his 1848 Song of Freedom, he did not begin to write pieces for a full choir until after his Göteborg sojourn, when he composed numerous works for the Hlahol choral society, mostly for unaccompanied male voices.[107]" Perhaps a semi-colon after "sojourn" and "there" instead of "where"?
 * Can't find the word "where" in the sentence. I have let the sentence stand for the moment. Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Opera
 * "Newmarch argues that The Bartered Bride, while not a "gem of the first order", is nevertheless a perfectly cut and polished stone of its kind."[134]" You are missing a quote mark but I'm not sure if it should go before "nevertheless," "a" or "perfectly."
 * Quote mark added. Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Reception
 * "In his final decade, the most fruitful of his compositional career despite his deafness and increasing ill-health, Smetana belatedly received national recognition, his late works generally being acclaimed." The last part of this sentence feels awkward. Here a semi-colon and a word added: "In his final decade, the most fruitful of his compositional career despite his deafness and increasing ill-health, Smetana belatedly received national recognition; his late works were generally being acclaimed."
 * I have deleted the last phrase, since this I think its meaning is implied by his receiving "national recognition". Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Again, overall this article is excellent and a major achievement. Well done! Jonyungk (talk) 19:58, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I am extremely grateful for your suggestions, most of which I have adopted. It is really good to have other eyes on the prose, to highlight shortcomings which I wouldn't necessarily notice myself. Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Review by Jappalang

 * Thanks for the help so far. Much appreciated, and I look forward to the rest. Brianboulton (talk) 17:23, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I have finished going through the article and presented my initial views above. I know it is the fault of the sources, but I see more of Smetana the composer than Smetana the man.  Perhaps it cannot be helped, unless a Czech editor comes up with native reliable sources that deal with Smetana's personal side of life.  Jappalang (talk) 03:49, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I hope you do see more of Smetana the composer than of Smetana the man, since it was his composing that made him notable – there would be no article otherwise! Anyhow, I am very grateful indeed for the care which you have lavished on this review, well beyond the normal call of duty. As you will have seen, I have taken most of your points, and the article will be all the better for them. I will work on the outstanding areas during the next couple of weeks; I am rather busy elsewhere at present, and am not proposing to take this to FAC before the very end of this month, or the start of July. I am leaving a separate message on your personal talkpage about a matter not directly related to this review. Again, warmest thanks. Brianboulton (talk) 18:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the introduction of "Character and reputation" helped to further flesh out the man. Good job.  Jappalang (talk) 09:06, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Comments from
 * You said you wanted to know what to work on before taking to FAC, so I looked at the sourcing and referencing with that in mind. I reviewed the article's sources as I would at FAC. The sourcing looks good.
 * Hope this helps. Please note that I don't watchlist Peer Reviews I've done. If you have a question about something, you'll have to drop a note on my talk page to get my attention. (My watchlist is already WAY too long, adding peer reviews would make things much worse.) 19:16, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Query:
 * Shouldn't "Character and reputation" be either in its own category or in part of the "Life" section instead of "Music"? Please see Dmitri Shostakovich and you'll see what I have in mind. Thanks. Jonyungk (talk) 20:13, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was supposed to be a separate section, thanks for spotting this. The article doesn't have a "Life" section as such; my view is that the summary of his character and reputation should be at the end of the article, since to an extent this section summarises what has gone before. It wouldn't make much sense to have it before the music section, for example. Brianboulton (talk) 23:57, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree&mdash;that is exactly how Shostakovich is set up, and it makes sense the way you explain it. Jonyungk (talk) 00:58, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch comments Very nicely done and the melody to the Moldau (Vltava) is going through my head as I write. Here are a few comments for possible improvement. Hope this helps, nicely done (as always) Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 19:53, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In the lead, would it make sense to mention the instrument in Smetana was naturally gifted, and gave his first public performance at the age of six. ?
 * Agreed and done. Brianboulton (talk) 23:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Would it also make sense to mention the Vltava (Moldau) section in Ma Vlast in the lead, since that is the best know part of that work?
 * I couldn't find a way of doing this neatly in the lead. I have, however, said a bit more in the "Orchestral" section about this most popular movement. Brianboulton (talk) 23:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In Early life, would it make sense to describe the situation in the Hapsburg Empire at the time, especially linguistically? Some of the locals used Czech, but I would imagine German was the official language. What language was school taught in?
 * Yes, this comes up now in the Seeking recognition section - I still think it would help to mention his education was in German here.
 * I have added a sentence in the "Childhood" section which I think clarifies the situation (and a citation). Brianboulton (talk) 23:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Again it might just be that I am familiar with German names, but I wonder if identifying Plzeň as Pilsen too would help (most beer drinkers would presumably know about Pilsener)
 * Done Brianboulton (talk) 23:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Would "yet" read better than "then" in Early in 1848 Smetana wrote to Franz Liszt, whom he had not then [yet?] met, ...
 * OK, done this. Brianboulton (talk) 23:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This just reads oddly Without Liszt's financial help, Smetana was able to start a Piano Institute in late August 1848, with twelve students.[30] Would it read better as something like Despite the lack of finanical help from Liszt, Smetana was able to ...?
 * Yes, better wording, done (more or less) Brianboulton (talk) 23:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I adjusted the level of the Smetana Museum image currently in the article to make it a bit brighter. I also recropped another photo to get File:Smetana Embankment, Prague crop.jpg which might be a better image.
 * Yes, I agree yours is the better image and have replaced my earlier one with this. Brianboulton (talk) 23:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would link epithalamium in this is dismissed by Rosa Newmarch as "an epithalamium for a Habsburg Prince",[126] ...
 * Well. it's in a quote. I have an idea that you don't use links within quotes, but I could be wrong? Brianboulton (talk) 23:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You are correct - MOS:QUOTE says Unless there is a good reason to do so, Wikipedia avoids linking from within quotes, which may clutter the quotation, violate the principle of leaving quotations unchanged, and mislead or confuse the reader. I guess the question is how many people know what an epithalamium is without a link? Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 02:41, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it likely that few readers will be familiar with the term, so I have linked it on the basis that the unfamiliarity of the term is a good reason for linking within a quote. Brianboulton (talk) 18:21, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This probably needs a ref Thereafter the machinations which accompanied Smetana's tenure as Provisional Theatre conductor restricted his creative output until 1874.
 * Citation given. Brianboulton (talk) 23:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for these suggestions, most of which I have adopted into the article. Do you happen to know the rule on links within quotes? Brianboulton (talk) 23:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)