Wikipedia:Peer review/Camille Saint-Saëns/archive1

Camille Saint-Saëns
This peer review discussion has been closed. I hope to navigate Saint-Saëns through to FA to join his friend Bizet, his pupil and protégé Fauré, his rival Massenet, his mutual unadmirer Poulenc and one he never heard of, Messiaen, in the Wikipedia pantheon of French composers. Music apart he was a polymath, though word-count compels me to be sparing with mention of his part-time activities. All comments gratefully received. –  Tim riley  talk    16:45, 22 February 2015 (UTC)Thanks,   Tim riley  talk    16:45, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt
Excellent as always. The usual quibbles:


 * Lede
 * The second sentence of the second paragraph has the word "church" three times.
 * Amended. –  Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * SS follows a career twice in the second paragraph.
 * Attended to. –  Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "but it was influential for the history of French music" this reads a bit oddly, but it may be my American ear
 * It says what I want it to say, but I'm not wedded to the phrasing and am entirely open to alternatives. Would "for the course of French music" or perhaps "in the development of French music" be better? –  Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I like the latter.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The first (only) sentence in the final paragraph could possibly usefully be split.
 * Just so. Done. –  Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Early life
 * "rising official" What does "rising" really add?
 * Nothing. Most of the authorities write him off as just a minor official, but more recent biographies have shown that he was going places till his health gave way. Still, this doesn't affect his son one iota, so I've blitzed it. –  Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "all-rounder" I fear this will be lost on most of my countrymen. And women.
 * How little one knows! I had no idea this phrase would confuse. Now redrawn. –  Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I suppose it originated as a cricket term, and I haven't seen ESPN rushing to televise test matches in the US ...--Wehwalt (talk) 09:18, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * " philosophy, archaeology and astronomy, of which he remained a talented amateur in later life" it is not clear if you mean only astronomy or all three.
 * It was both, with particular emphasis on the last, as I hope I've now made clear. –  Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "gave an opus number was Trois Morceau for harmonium (1852)" it feels like there's a "to" missing after "number"
 * A transatlantic difference, I suspect. "He gave it an opus number" reads more smoothly in Br Eng than "he gave an opus number to it", I think –   Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Early career
 * "The instrument was adequate for church services but not for ambitious recitals, typical of high-profile Parisian churches." It's unclear what is "typical", the defective nature of the organ, or the ambitious recitals.
 * Indeed. Amended. –   Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * 1870s
 * "Société Nationale de musique" just checking the capitalisation.
 * One can choose any combination one likes from the sources. Some capitalise the adjective and both nouns, others capitalise two or one of the three. Drives you mad! I've gone for capping all three. –  Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "The work was finally presented" that is the second time you've used "finally" with respect to the staging of this work.
 * Trimmed. –  Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * 1880s
 * "water down" this triggered my POV meter. After all, watering down is generally not presented as a good thing.
 * Redrawn. –  Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "Always a keen traveller, he left France and stayed in Algiers," I'd quibble with this. Algeria was then considered a part of metropolitan France.
 * Touché! I simply hadn't thought of that. ("Plastique, Pompidou, sing the Marseillaise, Algerie n'est pas française!" – Flanders and Swann) Now amended. –  Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * 1900s
 * "In 1909 he made a highly successful tour of the US, for which he composed "Praise ye the Lord" for double choir, orchestra and organ, premiered in New York." This seems almost like you're missing a "which" before "premiered", though of course you would not want two whiches (three are more conventional)
 * Redrawn. Eye of newt and toe of frog omitted. –  Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "Institut" and "Institute" you use them inconsistently and I'm not sure which one is intended as there are two of each.
 * Again, the sources are inconsistent. To translate or not to translate? I've standardised on the French version throughout. –  Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "His determination to block Debussy's candidacy for election to the Institute was successful, and caused bitter resentment from Debussy's supporters." perhaps the second Debussy can be converted into "the younger man" or some such.
 * Good. Done. –  Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "His body was taken back to France," similar objection re Algeria.
 * Indeed. Now attended to. –  Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I'll make this a transatlantic review by doing the music side once I get home.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:55, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Excellent points all, and I look forward to your comments on the music, if you make it home through the snowdrifts. –  Tim riley  talk    09:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Please don't mention the word. My vehicle made it down my steep driveway fine but refuses to return and is sulking by the mailbox. I think I'll trade it in on a tank.  Anyhow, here are the remainder.
 * Resuming (jet lagged).
 * " Danse macabre (1874)" you use "depicting" twice in this paragraph. I suppose music can depict dancing skeletons, but it's probably not worth using twice.
 * "After the Second, the Fourth, in C minor (1875) is probably the composer's best-known piano concerto." I would move the introductory clause later in the sentence for clarity. "the Second, the Fourth".
 * "motets" a link for the uninitiated? Also in "bagatelles (1855), études (two sets – 1899 and 1912) and fugues (1920)" Similarly, "cantabile"
 * Cite needed after the first sentence of "Solo keyboard" as it contains a quote.
 * "the early Mass" I don't believe you've mentioned this creature before, therefore question "the". Also please check to see if your capitalisation of "mass" or "masses" throughout is as intended.
 * All acted on.  Tim riley  talk    14:00, 28 February 2015 (UTC)


 * It is an excellent article on a conductor who (and whose works) I've always considered for the most part rather dull. I am sure it will meet rave reviews at FAC.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for both tranches of comment. I don't expect raves at FAC, but the improvements you have suggested will certainly make such a contingency less unlikely, and I'm most grateful.  Tim riley  talk    14:00, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Comments by Der Doktor

 * Lead
 * "His best-known works include The Carnival of the Animals, the symphonic poem Danse macabre, the opera Samson and Delilah, Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso and his First Cello Concerto, Second Piano Concerto, Third Violin Concerto and Third ("Organ") Symphony." -perhaps put the dates in brackets after these.
 * Can do. Do you think the works should then be listed in date order? Might look odd otherwise.  Tim riley  talk  
 * Yes, that might be good.♦ Dr. Blofeld  14:16, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


 * "This brought him into conflict in his later years with composers of the impressionist and dodecaphonic schools of music; although there were neoclassical elements in his music, foreshadowing works by Stravinsky and Les Six, he was often regarded as a reactionary in the years before and after his death." -quite a long sentence this one...
 * We could make the semicolon a full stop, but in effect that's a change without a difference.  Tim riley  talk    13:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "Saint-Saëns held only one teaching post," -where was this and what period?
 * It's in the main text. I'm not sure we want the full detail here as well.  Tim riley  talk    13:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you could just add the place where he taught?♦ Dr. Blofeld  14:17, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


 * "It was influential for the history of French music, his pupils including Gabriel Fauré, whose own later pupils included Maurice Ravel, both of whom revered Saint-Saëns as a genius." -rep of "pupils", perhaps change the latter to students.
 * Yes. I'd spotted that and meant to deal with it exactly as you suggest, but then of course forgot about it! It shall be attended to.  Tim riley  talk    13:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Early
 * " French Ministry of the Interior" -perhaps link?
 * I'd looked for a suitable link, but there isn't a specific article, and the generic one isn't much help to the reader, in my view, so I decided against linking. I'm not immovable on the point, though.
 * "in a programme including" -"in a programme which included"?
 * By all means.  Tim riley  talk    13:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "In 1851 Saint-Saëns won the conservatoire's top prize for organist" -do we have the formal name for the prize?
 * Unlike the Prix de Rome there was no special name for the First Prize for Organ.  Tim riley  talk    13:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


 * 1860s
 * " at the École de Musique Classique et Religieuse (School of Classical and Religious Music), " -in Paris right?
 * Indeed. I'll add.  Tim riley  talk    13:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


 * 1870s
 * "Saint-Saëns and Marie-Laure continued to live together for three years, but he blamed her for André's accident, and the double blow" -I find the "but" and "and" jarring here.
 * I see what you mean. I'll ponder on a redraft,  Tim riley  talk    13:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


 * 1880s
 * Can you add the department after La Bourboule for some idea of where it is?
 * Will do. (It seems to be the back of beyond, and Lord knows how they lighted on it.)  Tim riley  talk    13:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


 * 1890s
 * Chicago is not normally a city I'd link, one of the big ones.
 * Happy either way. I'll unlink, but I bet you two bob someone comes in and demands a link. We shall see.  Tim riley  talk    13:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * " the university" -don't like the link here, I think it's best to just not link it, you have a link to the musical society which is relevant anyway.
 * I wondered about that, and will gladly follow your suggestion.  Tim riley  talk    13:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Concertante works
 * Should faintly sinister be quoted here?
 * Short enough not to need quotes, I think, and it's clear whose words they are, so no problem on the plagiarism front.  Tim riley  talk    13:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Operas
 * "oriental pentatonic " -I have a pretty advanced knowledge of music theory and am not sure how the oriental pentatonic differs from the normal one, is there a link to oriental scale here or something?
 * I had looked for a link, but there's nothing that seemed helpful to the reader. The pentatonic scale is, as you say, the same in Tokyo as in Torquay: what I was trying to convey is that it has an oriental association. ("Miya Sama", in The Mikado, anyone?)


 * Other vocal music
 * Are the links to the likes of Debussy intentional here? You previously linked that and perhaps one or two o others earlier on didn't you?
 * I need to do a spot of housekeeping on this. In earlier "Life and Works" articles on composers we seem to have established an informal understanding at PR and FAC that it is helpful to link once from the Life and once from the Works section, but I haven't been consistent about it here yet. I'll address before going to FAC.  Tim riley  talk    13:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for these comments, M. le Docteur. All good stuff.  Tim riley  talk    13:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Chamber
 * " It is a serious work, with a difficult piano part supporting the cello, which retains the melodic interest." - is this is in the same source as the one below it? I'm not quite convinced as the reader you know what you're talking about in this instance! Perhaps if you could be more specific in the description of the piano accompaniment here it would be more convincing in understand why it melodically grips the viewer.
 * what I'm trying to say is that the piano part is a bugger to play, but for all its pyrotechnics it doesn't detract from the cello part, where Saint-Saëns carefully keeps the melodic interest. Improved wording to that effect cordially invited.  Tim riley  talk    13:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * What is a "threnody"?
 * I'll add a blue link.  Tim riley  talk    13:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "and is considered by Grove's Dictionary alongside the rest of Saint-Saëns's chamber output. " - didn't quite get this at first, the alongside word threw me a bit I think, perhaps reword "The composer's most famous work, The Carnival of the Animals (1887), although far from a typical chamber piece is written for eleven players, is considered by Grove's Dictionary to be a part of Saint-Saëns's chamber output".
 * That'll do very well.  Tim riley  talk    13:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Good luck, great to see another high profile French composer approaching FA standard! Look forward to seeing it at FAC!♦ Dr. Blofeld  14:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Commments from SchroCat
A couple of minor MoS tweaks made earlier today, and the full review to follow this evening, but in the meantime, just one comment from a quick skim:

Early life
 * Do we need the accented form "régime"?
 * Well, he was French! But I suppose we can manage without.  Tim riley  talk    20:56, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

More soonest - SchroCat (talk) 17:04, 24 February 2015 (UTC) Early career
 * "Left with enough leisure to pursue": -> "leisure time", perhaps?
 * Redrawn.  Tim riley  talk    11:30, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

1870s
 * "National Guard": worth linking to National Guard (France)?
 * Definitely. Done.  Tim riley  talk    11:30, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "he found support for a pro-French musical society greatly increased" I stumbled over this a couple of times and think it could possibly be made a little more elegant?
 * Redrawn. Improved?  Tim riley  talk    11:30, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Much better, thanks - SchroCat (talk) 10:44, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "effectively killed the marriage": could possibly be worded differently, given the proximity of the children's' deaths?
 * Good point. Attended to.  Tim riley  talk    11:30, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "He was not a conventional Christian, and found religious dogma increasingly irksome;[n 10] he had become tired of the clerical authorities' interference and musical insensitivity; and he wanted to be free to accept more engagements as a piano soloist in other cities". Two semi colons? (Getting rid of one there will reduce the s-c count down from the 57 currently in place!)
 * I don't see any satisfactory alternative. It's a list of three related facts that belong in the same sentence, and I don't think commas would do the job as well as the semicolons.  Tim riley  talk    11:30, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

1880s
 * We have "organisation" here, but "realized" in the Early lifesection?
 * I'm a staunch "–ise" man, but "realized" is in a quotation from a (very) American critic, and I think the zed must be endured"  Tim riley  talk    11:30, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "Always a keen traveller": you've already told us this (last para of the 1870s section
 * So I had. Second use of the phrase now blitzed.  Tim riley  talk    11:30, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

1890s
 * "Chicago fell through in 1893,[86] He wrote one opera": is that meant to be a full stop there?
 * Just so. Now amended.  Tim riley  talk    11:30, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Done to the end of the biography: music section to follow in the morn. Most enjoyable! – SchroCat (talk) 21:42, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Excellent points! Thank you. I look forward to round two.  Tim riley  talk    11:30, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Just a couple more on continuing, although doing this through a slightly thick head this morning:

Orchestral works
 * "a practice Saint-Saëns used elsewhere": do you use a practice? Possibly one does, come to think about it!

Operas
 * "The critic Ronald Crichton writes ... "lacked ... inferior." Needs a source at the quote' end, I think.

Fascinating read – please drop me a line when you go to FAC. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 10:41, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Comments from BB
Not much at all that I can quibble with here, but I'll try.


 * Early life
 * You may know this, but according to Schonberg: "At $2 1/2$ he was picking out tunes on the piano. Naturally he had perfect pitch. At three he composed his first piece. The autograph, dated March 22, 1839, is in the Paris Conservatoire. At five he was deep in analysis of Don Giovanni, using not the piano reduction but the full score". This is from Lives of the Great Composers, Vol. 2 p. 42, if you want to use it.
 * Good stuff, now woven into the text.  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Early career
 * "Left with enough spare time..." I'd delete the first word
 * Done.  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Could we have a date for SS's "I admire deeply" comment re Wagner?
 * I'm afraid not. The source says only that these were his words in his earlier days, but so much is clear from the context. I can't find the quote anywhere else to enable me to be more specific.  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * 1860s
 * Maybe even the linguistically challenged could work out "École de Musique Classique et Religieuse", without the translation?
 * I always dither about such matters. Translation now blitzed.  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "his best known piece". The case for a hyphen, m'lud, is that it is not the "best of his known pieces", but the "piece that is best known".
 * Quite so.  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * 1880s
 * "and sought to abandon it its "Ars Gallica" ethos" – an unintentional stutter?
 * Amended.  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "extremely deeply" – double adverbs always read a bit awkwardly. Won't just  "deeply" do?
 * Point taken and acted on, but I may try to find a better way of emphasising what a colossal blow it was to him.  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * 1890s
 * "Among the concerts that Saint-Saëns undertook during the decade was at Cambridge in June 1893..." Surely not grammatical? "One of the concerts..." etc would be OK.
 * Redrawn.  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Comma required after The Promised Land
 * Done. It is not for me to say what my worst fault is as a prose writer, but my most ineradicable seems to be opening a subordinate clause with a comma and then forgetting to close it with another. I was told off by my schoolmasters fifty years ago for this and dammit I'm still doing it.  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Music
 * A trivial point (but I've got to find something): why " the Fourth, in C minor", but " Third Piano Concerto, in E♭" (rather than "E flat", that is)?
 * I prefer to use the symbol because I dislike WP's standard style for using words: "E-flat", with a hyphen, which looks outlandish to me. There isn't an equivalent for "minor".  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "(other sources give that distinction to the Third Symphony)". The original distinction, the title of "Beethoven of France", was given to Saint-Saens, not to a musical work, so the parenthetical insertion needs a little tweaking, e.g. "based that distiction on"
 * True. Duly twuck.  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "serious but animated work" – I would prefer the slightly softer "although"
 * Done.  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "Sasasate" → "Sarasate"
 * Done. Thank you. The sort of typo one never spots for oneself.  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Maybe mention SS's collaboration with Dukas at the earlier mention of the completion of Frédégonde? And do you need Guiraud's full name and link again?
 * Better. Done.  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "Offertoire (1853), Bénédiction nuptiale (1859), Communion (1859)" – names of works shd be in quotes
 * Done. I wasn't sure about these, thinking they might be as generic as "Symphony" and so not need inverted commas. But happy to add them.  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "although far from a typical chamber piece" requires a comma after "piece"
 * Another clause with the back door left wide open! Now shut.  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

That's it. Top marks for not mentioning Noël Coward, Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Fantasia. I had forgotten the pleasures of reading, let alone writing, a first class composer biography. I am trying to tempt myself back into the fold – this might do the trick. Brianboulton (talk) 21:23, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for these excellent points. Glad you approve. Could I possibly interest you in overhauling Ravel, on whom I'm working in a desultory way in my sandpit? i don't see you as a Ravellian but one never knows. –  Tim riley  talk    14:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you to the Mighty Handful who have contributed above. A couple of reviewers I hoped might look in are unavailable, and so I'm closing the review now and heading off to FAC.  Tim riley  talk    15:43, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks and closure