Talk:Camille Saint-Saëns

Pronunciation
Isn't the dieresis over the e in Saëns supposed to indicate that it is to be pronounced as a separate vowel from the preceding one? ZFT (talk) 21:05, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * No.  Tim riley  talk    21:32, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I always wondered about this too, Tim. What's its purpose then?  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:34, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * In fact, I asked this very question up above at "The surname Saint-Saëns" in 2008, but I still await a reply. That's OK, I have patience.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * It is a wicked French plot to confuse innocent Englishmen, as in the otiose grave accent in première and the ludicrous circumflex in château.  Tim riley  talk    21:53, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Later, and slightly shamefacedly, can you perhaps help us out with a more objective explanation?   Tim riley  talk    22:25, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, the other person who springs to mind - Madame de Staël - is listed separately in the voyelles section over at le Wiktionnaire: Le dictionnaire libre so there may be two origins (hence their different pronunciations) of this combination. Unless someone knows someone at the Académie française they can ask, I would suggest just accepting that there must be a very good reason for doing this... Is this objective enough?!Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:51, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * That's most interesting - thank you very much, mon général. In passing, Ogden Nash's verses for Carnival of the Animals begin with the words, "Camille Saint-Saëns was wracked with pains, When people addressed him as Saint Sanes", but I digress.  Tim riley  talk    22:51, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Actually, the correct pronunciation is not "sɛ̃sɑ̃s" but "sɛ̃sɑ̃." No self-respecting Frenchman would pronounce the final "s" (except in the case of elision). I had this conversation with a French lady (in the café of the Louvre, of all places) who was very surprised to hear that Americans almost universally pronounce the name incorrectly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.214.18.122 (talk) 12:57, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Arguably. Yet, many contemporary (younger) French speakers will pronounce that final s.. U . A .— 20:35, 10 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I don't think this question will ever be – or can be – answered definitively. Our francophone colleagues chez Wikipédia Fr are unequivocal that the final s is sounded (pace the lady in the Louvre café), but they add an interesting footnote, citing an article "Doit-on prononcer le "s" final de Saint-Saëns ?", to the effect that the composer preferred his name to be pronounced like that of the village Saint-Saëns, which, the note says, was pronounced without a final s until 1940–1950 and was spelled without a final s until 1840–1860. –   Tim riley  talk   21:18, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

File:Camille Saint-Saëns in 1900 by Pierre Petit.jpg scheduled for POTD
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Exile in England
During the brief but bloody Paris Commune that followed, his superior at the Madeleine, the Abbé Deguerry, was murdered by rebels; Saint-Saëns was fortunate to escape to temporary exile in England where he arrived in May 1871. The Paris Commune assumed power on 18 March, and was bloodily suppressed on 28 May. Minor mistake? He likely arrived in March; the Romance, Op. 37 is dated to 25 March 1871 on the autograph, and was written "during his period of exile in London".

intforce (talk) 19:41, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The British press archives are full of mentions of CS-S in London from May onwards, but nothing earlier. The monthly journal The Orchestra records on 19 May 1871 that CS-S is "one of the last refugees arrived from Paris", and The Musical Standard for 27 May also records that he "has just escaped from Paris". What is Jost's source for saying – if he does – that the March inscription was written in England? Am I missing a relevant mention on the site to which you link?   Tim riley  talk   20:21, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Later: I've tweaked the new article a little but have left the purported month and place of composition unaltered pending resolution of the supposed anomaly mentioned above.  Tim riley  talk   22:24, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Interesting. It appears that Saint-Saëns returned after 28 May, and that he fled on the last train from Paris to London. Given that he was a bourgeois member of the Old Guard, he feared for his safety in the Paris Commune. I think "on the last train from Paris to London" would imply March? Jost cites Bonnerot, C. Saint-Saëns. Sa vie et son œuvre, Paris, 2 1923, pp. 61f but sadly I don't have access to that source. Jost's preface can be found here. intforce (talk) 11:20, 12 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I have ordered Bonnerot's book at the British Library. In normal times I'd stroll down there after lunch, but with the current Covid limitations on access it will be 17 June, if you please!, before I can get in. I have ordered some other Saint-Saëns biographies as well, and will report back here a.s.a.p. thereafter.   Tim riley  talk   11:28, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I renewed my reader's ticket at the BL today, and have booked a desk in one of the reading rooms for 23rd June. More on the above matter then, I hope.  Tim riley  talk   21:36, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Bonnerot
Bonnerot is not much help. On pp. 61–62 he says:
 * Saint-Saëns gathered the few hundred francs he could find in the house, said goodbye and left. At the Gare du Nord, a train was leaving; an employee motioned for him to go into a compartment, even without a ticket. The next day he landed in England and went to London, while in Paris the fédérés were occupying the gates and the stations and preventing the inhabitants from leaving. He had left in time.

Maddeningly, Bonnerot gives no date, but the trains stopped running to and from Paris on 3 April, to judge by press archives. If so, and if Saint-Saëns was indeed on the last train out of Paris, Jost is wrong that the Romance (dated March) was written in London. I am inclined to dodge the question of when CS-S left Paris, and redraw the relevant sentences to read:
 * During the brief but bloody Paris Commune that followed in March to May 1871 his superior at the Madeleine, the Abbé Deguerry, was murdered by rebels;[52] Saint-Saëns was fortunate to escape to temporary exile in England. With the help of George Grove and others he supported himself while there, giving recitals.[53] Returning to Paris in May 1871, he found that….

What think you, Intforce? –  Tim riley  talk   14:44, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the research! I agree that it would be possibly best to leave that question unanswered – it's merely a small detail after all. intforce (talk) 11:47, 24 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I've lightly redrawn the section accordingly.  Tim riley  talk   17:53, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Composer/Pianist Charlotte Tardieu Performed with Saint-Saëns
This information was removed from the article: Composer/pianist Charlotte Tardieu performed works for two pianos with Saint-Saëns on several occasions (https://www.sophie-drinker-institut.de/tardieu-de-malleville-charlotte). T. E. Meeks (talk) 12:27, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Not of encyclopedic interest in an article about Saint-Saëns. No mention of her in the Grove article about Saint-Saëns or in the full-length biographies by Neitzel, Hervey or de Lassus, nor in Saint-Saëns's own memoirs. Possibly of interest in an article about Tardieu, to add a bit of reflected glory to an obscure musician, but quite beside the point in CS-S's article. That's my view, anyhow: what think other editors?  Tim riley  talk   18:47, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Possible addition
While trying to improve the National Anthem of Uruguay page (having been bowled over by the reminiscences of Rossini), I realized that Saint-Saëns is sometimes incorrectly credited as the composer of the music. Why? It turns out that during a visit he made to the country in 1916 he was commissioned to write a celebratory hymn (I'm not sure if it was ever completed) which could potentially have become the national anthem, but in reality didn't. Whereas this information seems to me highly relevant for the page I was editing, I'm agnostic as to whether it might be appropriate here. Hence this post. In Freundschaft, 86.182.104.144 (talk) 15:08, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * According to Grove, Saint-Saëns did indeed write a hymn for Uruguay – Partido colorado for the national holiday on 14 July. I don't for my own part think this minor fact cries out for inclusion in our article, but there would be no great harm in mentioning it if others think we should follow Grove's example and do so.  Tim riley  talk   16:03, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, thank you Tim! How did I miss that? I had the Grove page open to consult, but somehow completely missed out on Partido colorado... which will now go onto the anthem page. 86.182.104.144 (talk) 16:23, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Good! I think that's right for both articles. (I found the one on the Uruguayan national anthem most interesting, by the way.)   Tim riley  talk   19:50, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, the more I've reflected on the somewhat nebulous episode, the less significant it has felt to me for this page. (I'm delighted you find the anthem page interesting, btw; so have I, which is what brought me here - thanks again!) 86.182.104.203 (talk) 21:23, 30 November 2022 (UTC)