Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2013 December 20

= December 20 =

Alexander Sacher-Masoch
What relation was leftist writer Alexander Sacher-Masoch to Marianne Faithfull? RNealK (talk) 05:44, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Uncle. Her mother Eva von Sacher-Masoch was Alexander's sister.  Rojomoke (talk) 07:04, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Why is "feeding the birds" seen as a good thing in Mary Poppins
Perhaps it's a cultural thing. As much as I love the movie, whenever it reaches this scene I'm perplexed. Is the homeless person who lives with pigeons a common theme/sight in the English speaking world? I believe something similar appeared in Home Alone.

To be clear, I 《get》 the symbolism of tuppence for frivolities instead of the bank, Mr Banks rediscovering his childhood, etc... just not this aspect of it. Thanks. WonderingWikiWanderer (talk) 06:46, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, if you don't think about it too deeply, it's showing charity for "God's creatures", even from a person who has very little to spare, so it shows great generosity. Of course, the reality is that the pigeons will become dependent on the handouts, breed uncontrollably, and ultimately more will starve whenever the handouts stop or can't keep up with the population explosion.  Then there's all the extra bird poop all those handouts generate.


 * Conservative bankers would find spending money to feed birds to be a total waste, when the money should be invested in the bank to build up England.


 * Then I suppose there's the secondary symbolism that pigeons are closely related to doves, the Biblical bird of peace, but I don't think that's what the movie was going for (I suppose I could be wrong though, as we do also have the crazy old admiral firing his cannon at the imagined Hottentots, so maybe there is some hidden war and peace theme there). StuRat (talk) 06:50, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * You more or less outlined my thinking on the logic of the birds. There are so many aspects of the movie you can't think about too deeply, but I wondered if I was missing something as she just randomly bursts into sentimental song. It felt like there was a cultural cue I missed. And oh my goodness, thanks for pointing out the last bit... I never picked that up! WonderingWikiWanderer (talk) 07:14, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Interesting that our article and other online commentary refer to her as a "beggar woman", when technically she's not begging - she's selling essentially worthless breadcrumbs as pigeon food. Her purpose is to permit Mary Poppins to teach Jane and Michael the importance of charity and compassion towards those less fortunate than themselves.  Feeding the birds is kind but probably counterproductive, as StuRat points out, but crucially, buying the crumbs provides a source of income for the poor old woman, who thus retains her dignity and a modest place in society rather than being forced simply to beg,  By advising that the money be placed directly in a locked vault to earn interest, and dismissing the idea of "investing" in breadcrumbs to keep the social order ticking over, Mr Banks is sending a very different message. - Ka renjc (talk) 08:12, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Note that begging was illegal in England under the Vagrancy Act 1824, and was rigorously enforced by the police. Therefore, the very poor had to have some means of earning money, however tenuous. Alansplodge (talk) 13:14, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Maybe that's one reason why beggars seem to offer some small service or product in return for their money, with the classic example being the bums who try to wash car windshields with a squeegee at a stop, and extract money from the drivers. I suppose another reason is self-respect, in that they can tell themselves they aren't begging, but rather working a paid job. StuRat (talk) 13:50, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Henry Mayhew's book London Labour and the London Poor details the various occupations of London's underclass in the 1840s, from collecting dog poo and rummaging in sewers for lost coins to telling rubbish jokes. Alansplodge (talk) 18:53, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It's about giving. Walt Disney loved the song, and felt that it symbolized what the theme of the film was - getting out of one's box, giving to others. On the soundtrack the tune (literally) underscores the serious moments in this otherwise mostly light-hearted film, especially when Mr. Banks finally understands that he's had his life priorities twisted around. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:31, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

According to this site the song was inspired by the now banned feeding of pigeons in Trafalgar Square. Something I remember doing as a kid. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 08:37, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed; in 1960s London, and presumably much earlier, tourists could buy a small bag of bird seed in order to feed the verminous pigeons in Trafalgar Square. I only remember rather scruffy looking men selling the stuff, but it could equally be done by a woman. It didn't seem odd to me when I saw the film as a child, because that was what you did when you went "up to Town", I seem to recall that the going rate was a shilling, which was twice the price of a Mars bar, so Mr Banks had a fair point. Alansplodge (talk) 08:49, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I found Boy in Trafalgar Square with pigeons sitting on his arms and head, November 1954. Trafalgar Square was once renound (sic) for the large numbers of pigeons and feeding them was a popular activity. from the Museum of London, who need to learn to spell. Alansplodge (talk) 08:54, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Here is another image, this time from World War II. Bird seed didn't seem to be rationed, but there were rather fewer pigeons than I remember - perhaps Londoners were eating them on the quiet! Alansplodge (talk) 08:59, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * See also Feeding Pigeons at St Marks Square Venice. It wasn't only London that had gullible tourists. Alansplodge (talk) 09:03, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * It's highly likely, since the French had been since 1600s. See Pigeon pie. Thanks ツ Jenova   20  (email) 09:58, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Although in England, the preferred ingredient is a big fat wood pigeon rather than its scrawny and disease-ridden feral cousin. Alansplodge (talk) 13:24, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, most pigeons farmed for consumption are Utility pigeons, the pigeon equivalent of the broiler chicken. -- Jayron  32  18:26, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone actually farms them over here; they fly about making a damned nuisance of themselves until somebody shoots them, I believe.   . Alansplodge (talk) 18:37, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Somebody must be farming pigeons for food, because the Government has regulations about such farms. See  which mentions pigeon farming.  -- Jayron  32  18:54, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, unless I am mistaken, most urban feral pigeons are rock doves and not wood pigeons. -- Jayron  32  18:55, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Quite right on your last point. I meant that nowadays we generally eat wood pigeons in preference to feral pigeons. Perhaps there is a pigeon farm somewhere, but I've never heard of one. Alansplodge (talk) 19:01, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "Eat a pigeon in a British pub and the chances are it has been sourced locally and you'll end up with a piece of shot on your plate. Eat a pigeon in a French restaurant and it is more likely to have been produced in one of the country's 400 pigeon farms." The Farmers Weekly Alansplodge (talk) 19:04, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Just make sure it hasn't been poisoned in the park. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:08, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Why has this feature being removed in Minecraft 1.7 gone unnoticed or unmentioned?
In minecraft 1.6.x, there was a feature so that.... when you looked at your server list and a server was not using the version you were, it would show the server version. For example. if you were running 1.6.4, and the server was 1.5 or something, the standard red X would be there, along with "1.5" in red text.

In 1.7.x, this feature is MISSING! I have googled this and found no references to the missing feature. Why is this not mentioned anywhere, and why did mojang remove it?!? I find this hard to believe as it was a MUCH NEEDED feature. Players with a 1.7.x client now are unable to see if a server is running 1.6.4, and this will also cause issues in the future when updates are released (Consider the wait time for bukkit servers etc!).

Does anyone know why this was done, if it was ever reported to mojang, or if they plan to re-add the feature?

Thank you!

216.173.145.47 (talk) 17:31, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * You can contact Mojang here.--Shantavira|feed me 15:01, 21 December 2013 (UTC)