Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 December 20

= December 20 =

Is my understanding of the Transcendental Deduction correct?
I don't want to misinterpret this important philosophy of Kant so I need to consult it here whether my interpretations are in accordance to what is generally accepted.

Transcendental deduction implies that it is not experiences that gives us the right to put the concept to the object. Instead there are categories which are innate in us before we experience things and things and the role of cognition and sense is to verify whether these categories applies to objects.

Please say whether my understanding is correct, if not please supply what is necessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshua Atienza (talk • contribs) 00:20, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I think you're very close. A couple things:  Be careful when you say that the categories are "before" experience.  Although they are a priori to experience, no cognition is possible without the occurrence of experience.  A priori here does not have a temporal or causal meaning. Rather it refers to whence the content arises.  In this case, from the human faculties themselves. This point is right at the beginning of the second edition Introduction: "As far as time is concerned, then no cognition in us precedes experience, and with experience every cognition begins. But although all our cognition commences with experience, yet it does not on that account all arise from experience."  So really, "a priori" and "a posteriori" are sort of misnomers for Kant's critical work.


 * That "the role of cognition and sense is to verify whether these categories applies to objects", that just seems wrong to me. Kant is clear: All objects are thought through categories (§27 B165). So it does not seem that cognition and sense would verify that they apply.  But I can think of a few things that you might be trying to get at:


 * There is the distinction between merely thinking an object, and cognizing an object. The cognition is thinking of the object along with a sensible representation.  So in the case of cognition, the categories will never be applied to anything but possible objects of experience, because sensible representation is always representation of such objects.  But one may merely think of an object with certain properties and apply the categories and thereby make judgements and reach various conclusions about this object, and the logic/reasoning may be fine, and yet be completely wrong in conclusion, because the object may not be an a object of possible experience, but just a fiction of reason.  For example, this is why Kant thinks the ontological argument fails, because it doesn't limit itself merely to objects of possible experience.  So, cognition's role is not to verify that the categories apply to the object, but it is cognition that naturally limits its objects to those of possible experience, which are the proper domain of the categories.


 * How the categories apply, may be called laws of appearances. However, because categories only determine the formal aspects of appearances, the categories cannot determine the laws of appearances with regards to every detail.  In order for the details to be filled in, experience must supply them.  So experience still has a role in describing particular laws of nature.  So take some law, like: masses attract.  The categories determine that objects are related by cause and effects which are necessary.  But they say nothing about the experiential details of the cause and effect. So the categories determine that the effect (in this case, attraction) is caused necessarily, but experience determines that the effect is actually an attraction and not some other effect, and that the mass is part of the causal story, as opposed to something else.


 * And the last thing that may help you: Reason, as mentioned, can run away with application of the categories to objects that cannot be of possible experience. However, reason itself can reveal that it is capable of doing this, and can even identify to some extent in which cases this may happen (this, in part, is what the whole Critique of Pure Reason does).  So, in a way, reason (not cognition and sense) can verify whether categories apply to objects in certain cases.  But this is not part of the transcendental deduction, but rather it's in the Transcendental dialectic.


 * Also, I wish to say, there are many interpretations of Kant. I have many failings in understanding this one interpretation, let alone other interpretations too.  The sort of story given here is closer to what is given in Bird's The Revolutionary Kant and Allison's Transcendental Idealism, Revised Edition than to others'. -- Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 07:03, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

France secession
Which parts of France wants to secede from the nation?--Donmust90 (talk) 01:48, 20 December 2012 (UTC)Donmust90
 * I don't know about majorities, but there are movements and parties of varying size and significance within certain regions that seek more autonomy or secession even. Our Category:Secession in France lists a few;: wthin mainland France, for example, the Bloc Català, the Breton Revolutionary Army, or Abertzaleen Batasuna, but also Corsica Libera and, outside Europe, the Martinican Independence Movement or the Kanak and Socialist National Liberation Front. ---Sluzzelin talk  02:05, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Mais, où est le front du peuple de Judée? μηδείς (talk) 04:01, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

There is also a separatist/autonomist movement in Occitania. However, in Metropolitan France separatism only has significant support in Corsica and Basque Country. --Soman (talk) 07:40, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There is a very small seperatist movement in Savoy; see the Savoyan League; the slightly larger and more mainstream Savoy Region Movement supports local autonomy but not independence. Previous movements calling for unification with Italy (which is sort of secession, I suppose) have more or less vanished since WWII. Andrew Gray (talk) 12:45, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Renaud, in a humorous song was "l'autonomiste du 14e arrondissement". His lyrics listed the various separatist movements: "Puisque les Basques et les Bretons, Les Alsaciens les Occitants, Les Corses, les Chtimis, les Wallons. Y veulent tous être indépendants". Itsmejudith (talk) 13:22, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't that be "Ils veulent"? -- AnonMoos (talk) 17:56, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes in proper French. I got the text off the Internet as I only half remembered it. The "Y" indicates a pronunciation regarded as lazy, omitting the "l" from "ils". It's a common pronunciation anyway, so the deviant spelling may not be strictly necessary but indicates the colloquial nature of the lyrics. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:56, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

What is meant by "Metropolitan France"? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 22:45, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The "hexagon" and Corsica, as opposed to DOM-TOM, I would assume... AnonMoos (talk) 22:54, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Now, you know we have an article for that, don't you? Dalliance (talk) 23:14, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks, should have searched. Interesting that metropolitan is contrasted with colonial in France as opposed to suburban in the US.  Wonder if there's an article that deals with the 50 states and DC as opposed to the American territories. μηδείς (talk) 03:53, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There's U.S. state and List of U.S. states. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  04:03, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, no, those are about the states as individual entities, whereas I take it that Medeis was referring to the portion of the United States comprising the 50 states plus DC, but not Puerto Rico and Guam and such. I'm not sure that's exactly parallel; the overseas French departments, according to our article, are represented in Parliament, whereas Puerto Rico and Guam are not represented in Congress.  So it might be more like continental United States. --Trovatore (talk) 04:13, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The answer to Medeis is yes. The article United States starts out with "The United States of America (commonly called the United States, the U.S., the USA, America, and the States) is a federal constitutional republic consisting of fifty states and a federal district." The term United States sometimes means that and sometimes is used more inclusively to include the territories. Duoduoduo (talk) 16:15, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Then what article deals with the analog of les EE UU entiere? As for overseas departments, ours are AK and HI, with the rest being territories, as far as the analogy holds. μηδείς (talk) 17:57, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * AK isn't really "overseas" from the contiguous 48 states, even if it can be got(ten) to by boat. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  21:15, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The analogy is fine, Algeria was neither Metropolitan nor technically overseas when it was administered as French departments. μηδείς (talk) 01:32, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

amphigory
The word "amphigory" occcurs in a short story by Robert Heinlein. It's also the title of a book by Edward Gorey. What does it mean? I asked this question in a briefer form on Dec. 16 or 17. It was apparently removed by someone. Why? 64.206.70.114 (talk) 02:17, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Your question wasn't removed. It's still visible on this page, if you scroll up. StuRat answered it and provided a link. For another link, wikt:amphigory defines it as "nonsense verse; a rigmarole, with apparent meaning, which on further attention proves to be meaningless". ---Sluzzelin talk  02:20, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * And given the nature of his work, I'm sure Edward Gorey was playing with its similarity to his name. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 02:23, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * In fact he spelled it "Amphigorey". ---Sluzzelin talk  02:38, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Bob and Ray might be the only comedians ever to use that word in a routine. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:43, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Delayed snail mail
Is there a service where I can send a snail mail to my future self? As in, I write the letter, send it out, and it get sent back in 5 years. I've seen this trope used a few times in fiction and was wondering whether it actually works in real life. Dncsky (talk) 05:45, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * In the fiction I've read/watched with this trope, it's not actually a postal service but a private courier company who delivers the letter. Basically, a contract is agreed upon between the sender and the courier to hold the letter until X date, whereupon it is to be delivered to Y location at Z time. Of course, that requires hiring a courier service that will still be in business at X date. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 07:34, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Perfect answer. Thanks. This happens literally every time Apple releases a new phone so I don't know how I could've missed it.Dncsky (talk) 07:55, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * You could also make such arrangements with a storage company, with the agreement that they will drop the item in the mail once the rental period ends. StuRat (talk) 08:31, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * True. Thanks.Dncsky (talk) 08:51, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * You would have to trust that the company is still in business, but there are indeed companies set up especially to do this sort of thing. See http://www.dyingmessage.com for one useful application of the idea.

You could always try the Jersey resistance movement. Alansplodge (talk) 12:33, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Political victory and stocks
After Park Geun-hye's victory today stocks related to her family jumped by the maximum daily limit of 15%. Does this happen in other countries as well or is it just an Asian thing? Dncsky (talk) 08:50, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

UK maps
I'm trying to find a detailed map of the UK with county borders clearly marked, so far all I can see are blank maps with just the counties, or otherwise detailed and crowded maps that somehow neglect to show this particular detail. anyone know of one I can use?

86.15.83.223 (talk) 14:16, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Google Earth shows county borders when zoomed in close enough. (Make sure "2nd Level Admin Regions" is checked under "Borders".)  → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 16:05, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * First we should ask what you mean by counties. The UK has a number of different kinds of administrative divisions, not all of which are counties, such that most UK residents no longer live in an administrative county. Instead, where they live, the highest administrative division below the national or country level (Northern Ireland, Scotland, or Wales; England is not an administrative division) is a unitary authority or metropolitan borough. If you are looking for 2nd-level administrative regions, whether or not those regions are counties, Google Earth might satisfy you. Also see Administrative geography of the United Kingdom. There are still administrative counties; they just don't cover the whole country.  Meanwhile, there are ceremonial counties, historic counties, and registration counties.  See Counties of the United Kingdom.  Marco polo (talk) 16:08, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Here's one for the current ceremonial counties of England complete with county towns. Alansplodge (talk) 17:22, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Yea, I was hoping for something with both ceremonial counties and unitary authorities shown, I'll give google earth a look, I have been thinking of installing it again, though I'm not sure about how I would go about importing images from that to edit on my computer... 85.210.119.218 (talk) 21:55, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The thing about ceremonial counties and unitary authorities is that they overlap. Or more accurately, unitary authorities are typically subunits of ceremonial counties.  They usually share ceremonial counties with administrative counties, though there are other arrangements.  Essentially they are two separate layers.  A map that shows two layers is not a simple map.  Marco polo (talk) 01:34, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I always thought the problem with maps of the UK were that no one knows how long the coastline of Great Britain is. μηδείς (talk) 03:33, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't that problem apply to all coastlines? I wonder why they've made a hullabaloo about GB.  --  Jack of Oz   [Talk]  03:56, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The UK's coastline has a relatively high fractal dimension (this is due to glaciation, I think - places closer to the equator tend to have much smoother coastlines), and Mandelbrot's famous paper says "the west coast of Britain was selected [by Richardson] because it looks like one of the most irregular in the world". 130.88.99.231 (talk) 16:56, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well maybe, but the county which is said to have the longest coastline, in England anyway, is Essex, where much of the coast is formed of salt marsh, heavily indented by meandering tidal creeks. Alansplodge (talk) 02:43, 22 December 2012 (UTC)


 * If you choose Google Earth, you can copy the images to your computer by clicking "Edit" then "Copy image".  → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 05:02, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni, Iranian gay teens
They were convicted of rape though most say that they were hanged for consensual homosexual sex. How can it be known whether they were rapists or gay? Will it ever be known? Keeeith (talk) 14:22, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well I guess it might depend on the legal system. "Consensual sex" with an underage person in the UK is statutory rape so a single act can both be consensual and rape simultaenously. If the legal system does not recognize the right of a 13-year-old to consent to homosexual sex, in the same way that the UK system does not recognize an under-age person's right to consent, then that legal system will call it rape. 217.42.12.125 (talk) — PhilHibbs | talk 14:46, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * My understanding from reports and discussions I've read is the claims which were published before the controversy began are there was a fair degree of coercion and force involved, it clearly wasn't just a case of age the so called 'rape rape'. To be clear I'm not saying these claims are definitely correctly, simply that the primary controversy is over whether they are, not whether it was rape because of the age of the victim and the executed. I would note from the information available it's entirely unclear whether calling them gay teens is even accurate. Nil Einne (talk) 14:55, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Quote about a famous scientist
Who said, and about whom, "He was so intelligent he could barely get himself dressed", or words to that effect? Perhaps "He was the sort of person who was...". It was about a famous scientist of the early-to-mid-20th-century, could have been Einstein but I don't think it was. — PhilHibbs | talk 14:45, 20 December 2012 (UTC) (originally posted without loggin in, oops)


 * Well, I've heard it said about Einstein that he would go out inappropriately dressed on winter days, etc. Don't know if stories like this about him are based in fact or not. Duoduoduo (talk) 16:41, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * There are one or two I've heard it said about, I think either Pal Erdos or Nikolai Tesla. --TammyMoet (talk) 19:19, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * They say Issac Newton would be so overwhelmed with new thoughts and ideas that the moment he started getting out of bed, he would just stop and sit there for sometimes hours lost in thought. Never heard a quote just like that one about him, though 85.210.119.218 (talk) 21:52, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

2 questions about reference desk ues
1. I recently asked a question, and got a useful answer, which referred to an answer to my O.P. of Dec. 12 (or so). I'd like to find it (the answer), But the history doesn't run earlier than Dec. 17. What to do?

2. How do I log in? I'm directed to the login page, but when I enter my name, or reasonable variants, I'm told "no such name". ??? (Also, there seems to be a typo at the head of the Request for Login section. Shouldn't it say "will not be publicly visible"?

Thanks to all who respond. I'm sorry to take up your attention with these newbie questions, but I can't find any directions to more suitable ones.

Robert Pearlman 64.206.70.114 (talk) 19:30, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 December 12, to log in you need to create an account which you may name whatsoever you choose so long as someone else has not taken that username already. 50.101.153.9 (talk) 19:42, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * (ec) 1 To view older threads, you can visit the archives, they're somewhere at the top of this page.
 * 2 If your name is not recognized when you login, are you really sure that you registered under that name? Maybe you could try registering again, considering that the username would still be available. It is possible that your username was removed because it violated Wikipedia's username policy. - Lindert (talk) 19:43, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I have noted that some very recently delisted threads will not show up immediately when you would have expected them to be archived. I am not sure what advice to give.  A thread on this at the talk page for this page (scroll way up) might help. μηδείς (talk) 22:41, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Christian baptism and nudity


Do modern Christians only baptize their babies naked while adult converts are permitted to wear clothes for the sake of modesty? 140.254.121.33 (talk) 20:38, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The picture shows a ceremony in the Eastern Orthodox tradition. In both Roman Catholicism and all the various Protestant churches, Baptism is performed fully clothed. In many traditions, a small amount of water is dribbled over your forehead, so you don't get too wet. In some Protestant traditions, such as the Baptists, there is "full immersion", but even then, modesty is retained. In the Church of England, there is a tradition for babies to wear elaborate lace Christening robes that may have been passed down through several generations. Adults just wear something fairly smart. Alansplodge (talk) 20:49, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Does a person have to schedule a baptism? Is there a time difference between the scheduling date and the actual baptismal date? What if a prospective Christian convert takes a class, but the class extends all the way to wintertime? Will baptism be cancelled until there is warmer weather? 140.254.121.33 (talk) 20:55, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * In general, baptism would have to be scheduled, and would usually require you join either the congregation or at least the denomination as a whole. I think about the only chance of getting baptized without scheduling it is if you find a revival meeting organized by Baptists (and even these days, they're more likely to schedule Baptisms rather than dunk anyone then and there).
 * I think the issue of whether a baptism would occur in the winter would be up to the individual and the baptizer's sense of how healthy the baptized is, and whether or not the church has an indoor baptismal pool. Most churches, as far as I'm aware, practice indoor baptism if there's any chance weather might be a problem.  Ian.thomson (talk) 21:03, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I am not sure what denomination these full-body baptizers represent (and would like to know), but here's a relevant clip from perhaps the best movie ever made. μηδείς (talk) 22:39, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * An extremely evangelical full immersion in a more WASPy part of South in the 1930s, they're most likely Baptist (unfortunately, not that that sort of baptism is common). Other denominations open to such evangelism and popular in the area tended to go with Christening.  The Mennonites practice full immersion adult Baptism, as I recall, but they're not as likely to baptize passers-by.  It's possible that they could be Churches of Christ or Disciples of Christ, but the crowd seems a bit pale compared to most Churches of Christ congregants, and Baptists have always outnumbered both groups, AFAIK. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:55, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Pentacostals also use full immersion and are common in the U.S. South. Rmhermen (talk) 03:17, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * True now, but they were a minority when O Brother Where Art Thou is set. Pentecostals were also early and major proponents of racial integration, and the crowd in that video is whiter than mayo on Wonder bread.  Also, that would be the calmest and most meditative Pentecostal service I've ever seen.  Ian.thomson (talk) 03:27, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * For a more Pentecostal depiction, one might see (if one can find an uncut copy) the very un-PC Our Gang short Little Sinner. "The baptism'll start when the eclipse totalizes." Deor (talk) 11:31, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I find Baptism particularly interesting. If you are seeking a biblical narrative regarding baptism, refer to Philip and the Eunuch: http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Acts/Philip-Ethiopian-Eunuch. Perhaps this may clarify the original process of scheduling a baptism. Furthermore, I would look into the Church's Code of Canon Law, it provides details into the type of information you are seeking. Twillisjr (talk) 04:21, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The commentary doesn't really say anything about clothing or lack thereof, or even whether it was by full immersion or pouring. The Catholic Church's Code of Canon Law would only provide information only for the Catholic Church.  Book IV, Part I, Title I, "Baptism" does not mention clothing or lack thereof in any of its chapters.  IV.I.I.I does say, however, "Although baptism can be celebrated on any day, it is nevertheless recommended that it be celebrated ordinarily on Sunday or, if possible, at the Easter Vigil."  Ian.thomson (talk) 04:52, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * If the OP is from Russia, I can see why he's worried about winter Baptism - see Russia's trend for dipping children in frozen rivers; brrrr! Alansplodge (talk) 11:15, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Traditionally, major churches in Russia would have a larger, unheated, summer building (for services from Easter thru September) and a smaller heated winter buildng (see e.g. Kizhi Pogost). The "winter church" could, of course, be simpler a comparatively small heated section of a larger church building. In either case, there would be a space for conducting sacraments, including infant baptisms, in relatively comfortable conditions throughout the year. But of course you could always elect to wait until the outdoor "blessing of the waters" event on the Epiphany (in mid-January). :-) -- Vmenkov (talk) 17:27, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The IP locater indicates that the IP is from Ohio in the US. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:35, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

The picture reminds me of the unhappy tale of the Emperor Constantine V of Byzantium, who has gone down in history with the unfortunate nickname of Kopronymos ("the faeces-named") because of a story that when he was a baby, he pooped as he was being lowered into the Baptismal font. Modern historians tend towards the view that it was a fib put about by his many political opponents, rather spoiling a funny story. Alansplodge (talk) 23:31, 21 December 2012 (UTC)