Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 July 26

= July 26 =

Weapons of rainforest tribes
What types of weapons did pre-industrial rainforest tribes, such as those of Southeast Asia, the Amazon, and the Congo, use? Did they use swords? What materials were the weapons made of? Did they have access to metal for their weapons, and if so, how did they get the metal? —SeekingAnswers (reply) 00:11, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Bow and arrows, poison blow darts, spears, etc. The machete came later.  Before they could mine metal themselves they could trade with those who did, or for the finished metal products.  StuRat (talk) 00:25, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Regarding "before they could mine metal themselves": did pre-industrial rainforest tribes have the ability to mine metal themselves? —SeekingAnswers (reply) 00:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * This depends on what you mean by rainforest and tribes. If ancient south India and Sri Lanka counts then the answer is very much yes. See Wootz steel, for example. There's also a lot of info at History of ferrous metallurgy. Pfly (talk) 01:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Southeast Asia, the Amazon, and the Congo have very different histories. I don't think iron working was developed in the pre-Columbian Americas, but the history of metallurgy in Southeast Asia is ancient (see, for example, ). Iron working spread through Africa at a later date; see Iron metallurgy in Africa. Pfly (talk) 00:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The question is so vague as to include just about every neolitic people on earth. But the Khoisan and the Yanomami both have the bow and arrow. μηδείς (talk) 01:50, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Hmm? Most Neolithic people did not live in the rainforest. I'm specifically asking about rainforest tribes. —SeekingAnswers (reply) 17:33, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * What Medis said... you need to be specific about who you're asking about. Many human societies had access to metal working at different times, but the transition into steel is fairly significant. Shadowjams (talk) 03:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I was specific: I'm not asking about human societies in general, but specifically rainforest societies. Wouldn't rainforest terrain make mining and metallurgy difficult? —SeekingAnswers (reply) 17:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Substitute the Bambuti people for the Khoisan if you insist on rainforest neolithic level peoples. μηδείς (talk) 23:51, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Many cultures figured out methods for working copper, silver, and gold, but the development of hard metals which could keep a sharp edge (bronze, steel) happened in middle eastern civilizations, and was not particularly associated with tropical hunter-gatherers. In the pre-1492 western hemisphere, metal-working was associated with jewellery far more than with tool-making... AnonMoos (talk)

You don't need to mine metal if you have access to Native copper which can be used to make tools and weapons, see Copper Inuit (who were not really a rainforest tribe), but copper was found in Coro Coro, Bolivia. Also if you could find stones or bones you can make a wide range of stuff. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 05:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I saw a TV program about this very subject a few days ago. This speculated that the Inca or Maya (I forget which) used wooden swords with Obsidian pieces forming the cutting edge. This was a double whammy as the pieces might become dislodged and stick into the victim. Yesterday, I saw an obsidian tipped Pacific Island spear featured on an antiques TV program. --TrogWoolley (talk) 12:21, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * You are referring to the Macuahuitl. V85 (talk) 18:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Southeast Asian metallurgy is indeed quite ancient resulting in some quite unique melee weapons, a lot of them having evolved from agricultural implements. See List of premodern combat weapons. Swords (slashing, thrusting, and hacking), spears (both stabbing and throwing), polearms (notably tridents in common with South Asia), slings, claw weapons, knives (including throwing weapons), sickles, and mace weapons (including staffs) were common pre-European contact, though archery in warfare is rare in Southeast Asia (in my opinion due to the fact that they're useless in the limited line-of-sight environments of jungles). Here are some:

I don't know much about African weapons, but I think it was mostly a spear, club, and bow affair.-- O BSIDIAN  †  S OUL  09:05, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

shooting memorial ribbons
I recently looked on Google for some memorial ribbons to the 2012 Aurora shooting. A couple images contained two different Batman logos. One of the ribbons was also in the colors of the Colorado state flag. How can I obtain one of each memorial ribbon?142.255.103.121 (talk) 07:54, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not clear whether anyone has started selling them; perhaps it is too soon for people to feel comfortable capitalizing on the tragedy. Keep an eye on http://pinterest.com/waywire/remembering-the-aurora-shooting/ where someone is collecting memorabilia, some of which is very likely to become commercial. You could make your own by laminating a color print cut-out at a copy shop. 207.224.43.139 (talk) 00:45, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

very specific: has anyone become totally famous in two professions under two names?
I'm looking for an example where like Mark Twain is really Samuel Langhorne Clemens, but Houdini is also really Samuel Langhorne Clemens - the same guy. Posthumity knows him in the first profession (writer, poet, artist), whatever, under one name, but also under the second under a second name.

It's also appropriate if one is the stage name one is the real name. (e.g. if Lewis Carroll was known to mathematicians as Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, which is not the case.)

or if noam chomsky used a slightly different name in politics and as a linguistics professor. the key thing here isn't the two professions - it's the two names or slightly different name. Thanks! 84.3.160.86 (talk) 13:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The only possibilities I can think of would be actors/musicians who used a pseudonym and then their real name. And the only one in particular I can think of is Dwayne Johnson, who is now known more as an actor than for his wrestling career when he was called The Rock. But of course he is also still known as The Rock too. Also, Natalie Portman published scientific papers under her real name (Natalie Hershlag), but I wouldn't say she's a famous scientist... Adam Bishop (talk) 14:42, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Trevanian was a successful novelist who was also a respected academic under his real name, but I'm not sure how "famous" he was as an academic. eldamorie (talk) 14:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

These are all excellent examples and right in line with what I was looking for. Keep them coming! 84.3.160.86 (talk) 15:07, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Do you mean Jack Black/Tenacious D? --TammyMoet (talk) 15:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Michael Savage is a conservative talk-radio host, and has published books on topics such as herbs and nutrition under his real name Michael Weiner. (He holds a Ph.D. in nutritional ethnomedicine.) I've only heard about him as a political commentator, though. V85 (talk) 15:56, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * OP here - didn't have one specific person in mind. Keep them coming!  These are great.  84.3.160.86 (talk) 15:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure how well this fits with your criteria, but Iain Banks is a novelist, whilst Iain M[enzies] Banks writes Science Fiction. I'm sure there are others - I'll keep thinking! - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:04, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Got one! Natalie Portman was a co-author on published scientific studies under her real name, Natalie Hershlag, gaining herself an Erdős–Bacon number of only 6. I like this game! - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:10, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I already mentioned her :) Adam Bishop (talk) 16:32, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * She must be doubly famous then! Sorry! - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:51, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Both of these are quite good too. How about historically, such that the person's work has passed down on two vines? (Charles Lutwidge Dodgson as a mathematician would be a good example here.) 84.3.160.86 (talk) 16:39, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't know what the measurement is of "totally famous". Brooke Magnanti PhD is well respected by her peers as a published scientist, but first achieved fame pseudonymously as Belle de Jour (writer), the London call girl with a blog. Since being outed, Magnanti writes under her own name about sex work, libel laws, and popular science. BrainyBabe (talk) 16:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * John le Carré is a famous novelist who was also known by his real name, David John Moore Cornwall, when he worked as an M16 officer and foreign consul (I don't know how "famous" he was - or could be (!) - in the latter roles though!). Loriski (talk) 17:00, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * See Ignacy Jan Paderewski. He was an internationally ranked pianist as well as being the Prime Minister of Poland.  2001:18E8:2:1020:EC9F:440D:1B5F:FA57 (talk) 17:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Paul Linebarger, a noted East Asia scholar and leading expert on psychological warfare, also wrote science fiction under the name Cordwainer Smith. John M Baker (talk) 17:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Another pen name: The writer Julie Edwards, author of The Last of the Really Great Whangdoodles and many other noted children's books, has also had a measure of success as an actress using her maiden name, Julie Andrews.  John M Baker (talk) 17:48, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Her maiden name was Juli a Wells. Juli e Andrews is her nom de guerre.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  23:01, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's correct. I was confused because she sometimes uses Julie Andrews Edwards as her pen name.  John M Baker (talk) 13:27, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds like two US airforce bases were named after her. --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  19:51, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Charles Ives seems to have been known better as an insurance salesman than as a composer, at least for a while after he started composing actively. 2001:18E8:2:1020:EC9F:440D:1B5F:FA57 (talk) 17:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Oops, I completely missed the "under two names" part. Sorry.  2001:18E8:2:1020:EC9F:440D:1B5F:FA57 (talk) 17:46, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Juliet Hulme was a well-known murderer, and as Anne Perry, a well-known novelist. (If "murderer" counts as an occupation.) Adam Bishop (talk) 17:45, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * They are actually variations on the same name, but you might not recognize Brigadier General James Maitland Stewart as being actor Jimmy Stewart. StuRat (talk) 17:46, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

James Tiptree, Jr. was well know as Major Alice B. Sheldon and also wrote as Raccoona Sheldon ,so a triple whammy there, Hotclaws (talk) 18:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC) Link fixed --ColinFine (talk) 18:41, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I've heard that Noam Chomsky is known under two names in Russia, and some Russians who have heard of both are unaware he's the same man: there's the linguist Ноам Чомски with a "ch"-sound (as in "chair"), and there's the political writer Ноам Хомский with a "kh"-sound (as in "chutzpah"). But I can't guarantee this is true; it's a story I heard and maybe it's false. Pais (talk) 18:48, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * At least I've also heard it; with the refinement that one of them is Ном rather than Ноам. — On a distant tangent, I once (long ago) had dealings with someone whose parents were Chinese and Japanese, and whose name could be romanized in two very different ways. —Tamfang (talk) 02:25, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The writer, critic and translator Philip Heseltine used the pseudonym Peter Warlock when he wore his composer's hat. He's much better known as a composer these days, but that wasn't always the case.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  21:52, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * J. I. M. Stewart was fairly well known as a literary scholar (he wrote a volume of the Oxford History of English Literature) but also quite well known as Michael Innes, author of detective novels. Deor (talk) 22:45, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I was not aware until well into my adult years that the Scottish novelist John Buchan (best known for The Thirty-Nine Steps) and the Governor General of Canada Lord Tweedsmuir were one and the same person.


 * There would be various other British and Commonwealth people who chose/inherited a new title upon entering the peerage who finished up as politicians or colonial governors, but were previously better known as military officers, administrators etc under their original names. For the last 24 years of his life, Lord Dacre of Glanton had the right to sit in the House of Lords and make British laws (I don't know that he ever actually bothered, but he might have), but he's also known as the historian Hugh Trevor-Roper. --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  23:01, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Alexis Leger was a famous French diplomat in his day, being Secrétaire-général (Deputy Minister) of the French Foreign Ministry in the 1930s and a key figure in various international negociations in those days. He is now better known as the poet Saint-John Perse, winner of the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1960. --Xuxl (talk) 08:59, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Louise Mensch MP is Louise Bagshawe, novellist. --Dweller (talk) 14:10, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Child actress Shirley Temple and ambassador Shirley Temple Black? Pais (talk) 16:24, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I was also going to mention John Cougar, John Cougar Mellencamp, and John Mellencamp, but he fails on the "two different professions" requirement. Pais (talk) 16:32, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Danish illustrator and linguist Ingahild Grathmer, noted for her work in connection with Danish editions of the works of J R R Tolkein, is otherwise known as Queen Margrethe II. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:50, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Elisabeth of Wied, Queen Consort of Carol I of Romania, poet, novelist and translator under the name Carmen Sylva. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 05:56, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Not sure how separate one would consider the fields, but country music icon Hank Williams recorded spoken-word religious records under the name "Luke the Drifter". - Jmabel &#124; Talk 06:01, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Japanese politician Akiyuki Nosaka, according to our article (but lacking solid citation, and I don't know this one independently) a writer under the name Yukio Aki and a singer under the name Claude Nosaka. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 06:13, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps not very famous even in Poland, but (according to Polish Wikipedia) Tadeusz Żakiej published his books about music under the pseudonym Tadeusz Marek and his cookbooks as Maria Lemnis and Henryk Vitry (a curious example of a double pseudonym of single author). — Kpalion(talk) 15:14, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Mrs.Wm H. Murray
I have found a picture in my mothers things that is of a lady sitting by a Quilt,( It shows different districs ,) There is a name under the Picture that says Mrs.Wm H. Murray I would like infromation on her and the Quilt ..... The quilt has 48 Squares and aflag of Oklahma and aMap that shows Numbers instead of countys. there is one squre thats a picture of Sequaha in the center and indian signs around the outside. Can you help me this has really made me wonder about this Quilt maybe being made for the Gov. ans Mrs Murray back in the 30s. I would really appreciate any infromation that I could get. Thank you very much: Dorothy Hames 8:42 Am. 26 July 2012 Ps. my mother was in home diminstration clubs about this time. She has past away Last January at the age of 97. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jiggs2 (talk • contribs) 13:46, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I have googled a bit, and I have found out that in 1927-1931 a woman by the name of Camille Nixdorf Phelan created the 'Oklahoma History Quilt', which seems similar, but not identical, to the one that you describe. It presented the history of Oklahoma from 1541-1931, in 54 squares, one of them including 'Sequoyah and his alphabet', and several of them including 'Mrs. Murray'. The quilt was presented to the Oklahoma Historical Society in 1935. Governor E. W. Marland accepted it on behalf of the society. You can read more about this quilt, either on this blog or in The Chronicles of Oklahoma, (1935) V. 13, No. 4. Is this the quilt in the picture? V85 (talk) 16:27, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I think we are looking for information on Mary Alice Hearrell Murray wife of William H. Murray the ninth governor. Worldcat show one biography: Alice "Crossing the Bar".&mdash;eric 16:45, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Secret Service protection for the US President's girlfriend?
Taking the proposed fictional relationship between Michael Douglas and Annette Bening in The American President as the premise, at what time point would a US President's girlfriend receive Secret Service protection? Is it based on 'when would she become in danger of being abducted to extort state secrets' or 'when she would know enough secrets herself (i.e. the President's whereabouts) that she could be extorted herself' or 'when she would become in danger of being harmed in a politically driven act of sabotage or crazed act of violence' or perhaps there's no real guideline and it's just a subjective call by the head of the Secret Service?  DRosenbach  ( Talk 14:13, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The last time there was an unmarried President with a girlfriend was 1915 when many things including the Secret Service worked much differently. (And married President's girlfriends now would also be treated differently) Rmhermen (talk) 15:00, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The President's girlfriend would likely fall under "Other individuals as designated per executive order of the President" as per the Secret Service article. Smurdah (talk) 15:09, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I wonder what is the likelihood of an unmarried man standing any chance of getting elected nowadays. I'm thinking the answer is "slim to none". In any case, as Smurdah notes, that would be the President's call. (If Clinton had had Lewinsky protected, maybe things would have turned out differently.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:22, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Interpreting a C18 portrait in a catalogue
Can an art historian help with this catalogue entry?


 * Lady Mary CARR, nee Vane (c. 1727-1781), pstl, 58x44, 1753-54 (Lord Barnard, Raby Castle). Lit.: L&R 154 repr.; R&L 270, fig. 398 [omega symbol]

It comes from the Dictionary of Pastellists before 1800 article on Jean-Etienne Liotard by Neil Jeffares.

Here is what I understand so far.


 * Lady Mary CARR, nee Vane (c. 1727-1781)

Mary was the daughter of Henry Vane, 1st Earl of Darlington (and the younger sister of Harriet, but not this red herring). She married an untitled man, and so got to keep her natal rank, correct? Any idea who her husband was, where the couple lived, what they did with their lives?


 * pstl

The piece of art is a pastel. I'm not really sure what this "means" in the context of the time. Wouldn't it have been more usual to do a portrait in oil? Was pastel cheaper or quicker or more trendy or believed to be better for some specific reason? More suitable to young girls, perhaps?


 * 58x44

Dimensions in inches, presumably.


 * 1753-54

When it was produced. (Does one say "painted" for pastels?) Mary would have been 26. The portrait appears to be of a pubescent girl. I must be missing something. Is it possible that Mary was the artist, and the item is mentioned in Liotard's article because... he was her teacher, or something? (I'm clutching at straws.)


 * (Lord Barnard, Raby Castle).

Given that the sitter is female, would this be the person who commissioned it? Or is it the current owner? Or someone else? There is a Baron Barnard. If I read our article correctly, at that date, this was Mary's father. It says " In 1754 he was created Viscount Barnard, of Barnard Castle in the County of Durham, and Earl of Darlington, in the County of Durham." Is the date significant? Was it usual, on gaining titles, to commission family portraits? In which case, were others commissioned? From the same artist or from others?

Nearby Raby Castle is associated with the Vane family. Is the painting/pastel there now?


 * Lit.: L&R 154 repr.; R&L 270, fig. 398

Does "Lit" mean "mentioned in the literature"? No idea what journal this is/ these are, or the difference between repr[oduction?] and fig[urative?].


 * [omega symbol]

The end. But the end of what? Just the description of this work of art, or some larger entity I cannot grasp?

"All professions are conspiracies against the laity." But why so many unnecessary abbreviations in an online source?

Any help in filling in the blanks (but not by random guesswork} would be appreciated.

BrainyBabe (talk) 16:26, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Simple solution to your confusion, Babe; the images appear below the relevant entry in the pdf, so Lady Carr is not the young girl but the woman with the pointy nose. As for the greek letter, it's not an omega, it's a phi.  Since it appears only after the figure number for the illustrated examples, and seems to come in small, capital, and bold versions, it's presumably just something to do with page layout in the original book. FiggyBee (talk) 17:39, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * (EC) I am not an art historian, so most of what I'd be able to contribute would be 'random guesswork' (or as I like to think it 'educated guesswork'), so I won't give you loads of what I think this might mean. However, the website does provide a list of abbreviations used, where some of the information you'd like can be found:
 * pstl does indeed mean pastel.
 * L&R means 'Loche & Roethlisberger, Liotard, 1978', which is a book published by Renée Loche and Marcel Roethlisberger in 1978 - from the latter's WP article, presumably L'opera completa di Liotard. Milan; Rizzoli, 1978.
 * φ, phi, not omega, means photo available.
 * repr. means reproduced/reprinted.
 * Dimensions are given in centimetres. — Preceding unsigned comment added by V85 (talk • contribs) 19:10, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The article you link to, ends with the following text: 'The definitive catalogue, R&L, came out in 2008. Catalogue numbers have been added in the form R&L n (references to the earlier edition are given as L&R n); copies and variants are cited by page (R&L p. x).' This does seem to contradict the information in the list of abbreviations, (edit:) but the Roethlisberger article does state that a second version was published in 2008(/edit). I could tell you how I would've interpreted these, but since you don't want guesswork, I won't.
 * The list of abbreviations also states that photos of pictures follow the description, so the picture of the girl goes with the text preceding it, whereas the picture of Lady CARR is the picture following it, which would seem to fit an age of ~26. V85 (talk) 17:42, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * When it comes to spouse: Lady Mary Vane is the daughter of Henry Vane, 1st Earl of Darlington and Lady Grace Fitzroy. She married Ralph Carr in 1752. From 1752, her married name became Carr. V85 (talk) 17:48, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * And with regard to the "Lord Barnard, Raby Castle", the parenthetical material in similar positions in other entries includes museums and such, so I think it's safe to conclude that it refers to the current owner and location of the work. Deor (talk) 22:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks all. My bad thricely! I don't know how I didn't see the list of abbreviations, and once I'd mis-remembered the symbol as an omega, of course I assumed that the entry was finished, and thus that the image above was the one referred to, not the one below. Thanks for that education in how to read a catalogue; there remain some unanswered questions, and some new ones. I'll number them this time:

1. Titles: is it correct (or would it have been correct then) that the daughter of an earl is addressed and referred to as Lady FirstName until her marriage, and, on marrying an untitled man, becomes Lady HerFirstName HisSurname?

2. Material: what's up with the choice of pastel? See my questions above. Our article is remarkably uninformative on why it was used historically, when the norm was oil painting.
 * According to the French wp article Pastel, the medium had its greatest popularity, especially for portraits, precisely in the 18th century, before giving way to oil after the French Revolution. --Xuxl (talk) 12:44, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

3. Date: Lady Mary married in 1752, according to the source given. (I had found thepeerage.com before, but am not sure if it is a reliable source, or dubiously scraped.) The picture is dated 1753-54. Was it normal in this time and place for husbands to commission portraits of their wives? Or is it more likely to have been ordered by her father, to look at in her absence, as it were? ("You're not losing a daughter; you're gaining a pastel masterpiece!") Or was it likely to be linked to his new titles, as I hypothesised above? NB the portrait is owned by Lord Barnard, i.e. it would appear to have been passed down through her birth family, not her descendants (though there may have been a cousin marriage later).

4. Artistic abbreviations: what is the difference between "repr" and "fig"? The first term features in the list of abbreviations as "reproduced; reprinted". Does that mean that copies of the portrait exist? Unless I'm going blind, "fig" isn't in the list at all.

5. Sitter: Are there any other tidbits of information to be found about Lady Mary, and indeed her husband Mr Carr? Were they just anonymous county squirarchy, or did they make their mark?

Many thanks for any leads. BrainyBabe (talk) 11:00, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * 2. The pastellists.com website where you found this article, mentions one reason why pastel was popular for portraits: 'The overwhelming majority of the pastels in the Dictionary are portraits, no doubt as a result of the unique suitability of this medium for the depiction of human flesh.'
 * 3. I don't know how reliable thepeerage.com is either, but it would seem to fulfil our requirements for reliability, as it does provide a source for the information it provides. You could look up that source and double-check.
 * 4. The best way to find this out, is, of course, to get your hands on a copy of the L&R and flip through it and see where that picture is reproduced and how that relates to those numbers. My guess is that 'fig.' means 'figure', perhaps page 270 has more than one figure on it (e.g. 315-325) and 319 is the one we're interested in. But that's just random guesswork.... V85 (talk) 15:09, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * 5. Mary's husband, Ralph Carr, was the son of Ralph Carr, who was the son of Ralph Carr, who was the son of Sir Ralph Carr. This Carr line associated with a place called Cocken in Durham county - possibly Cocken Hall? Ralph Carr's sister (i.e. Mary Vane's sister-in-law), Isabella Carr, married Henry Ibbetson, sheriff of York, who sponsored 100 men during the '1745 rebellion' (the Jacobite uprising?), and who was made baronet. . So while Ralph Carr himself doesn't appear to have a title, there is a sir in his lineage, and his sister married a baronet (albeit, before he became one). V85 (talk) 18:49, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Ralph Carr, Mary's husband was born 1728-05-31 and passed away 1788-09-11, leaving no children. (p. 354-6) The Cocken estate was then passed on to his sister Isabella's third son, Carr Ibbetson. As the latter didn't have any children either, the estate passed to Ralph Carr, Ralph Carr's cousin (as far as I can make out), and grandson of sir Ralph Carr. When Ralph Carr died, the property was inherited by his son, who was called (you guessed it) Ralph Carr.
 * So, what did Ralph Carr do? I don't know. Obviously there is a reference to coal in Cocken article, so it's tempting to think that any of them could be Ralph Carr (1711-1807) 'A Newscastle Merchant', whose endavours as a trader have been studied, due to his failures. While Ralph Carr is a contemporary of Ralph Carr, I can't find anything connecting Ralph Carr to the Cocken estate to which Ralph Carr was the heir. V85 (talk) 20:34, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Lit (literature ?) indicates the bibliographic details listed on this page. On it, as indicated here above, L&R: Renée Loche & Marcel Roethlisberger, L'opera completa di Liotard, Milan, 1978. — AldoSyrt (talk) 08:20, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

It looks as if we've gone about as far as we can go with this query. Thanks, everyone. BrainyBabe (talk) 15:08, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Federal Insurance Administration
Where in the US government was the Federal Insurance Administration located in the late 1970s? It seems that it's been renamed and moved to FEMA, but where was it before that? 2001:18E8:2:1020:EC9F:440D:1B5F:FA57 (talk) 17:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Department of Housing and Urban Development.&mdash;eric 18:10, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but . 2001:18E8:2:1020:EC9F:440D:1B5F:FA57 (talk) 19:17, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * According to this report prepared for FEMA, the National Flood Insurance Act of 1968 or Title XII of the Housing and Urban Development Act of 1968 created both NFIP and FIA under HUD.&mdash;eric 19:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I did my best with Google but wasn't able to find anything.  2001:18E8:2:1020:EC9F:440D:1B5F:FA57 (talk) 19:35, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You're welcome, here's the text of the act: .&mdash;eric 19:36, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Western trade with the East
When did the West first contact/trade with India and China? --146.7.96.200 (talk) 18:20, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * If by the West is meant Europe, then Alexander the Great (with his army) may be one of the first Westerners we know of to reach India. However, I'm curious if someone here knows of earlier confirmed contact. - Lindert (talk) 19:01, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * There is definitive evidence of trade between India and Babylonia going back to 900 BC, and less definitive evidence for trade between India and the Hittites hundreds of years earlier. Looie496 (talk) 19:32, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Babylonia was in modern day Iraq. I don't think that is "the West" by anyone's definition. The Hittites were in modern central Turkey, which could possibly be considered in "the West", but not by most definitions. ("The West" is a modern term, so you need to consider the location in a modern world when trying to give it meaning in ancient times.) --Tango (talk) 19:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The Silk Road and Tocharians articles might be of interest to you. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 23:26, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * See also Dzungarian Gate. μηδείς (talk) 23:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Isn't there evidence of silk reaching Ancient Egypt, found in mummies, thousands of years before Alexander the Great?--The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 05:19, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Egypt however, is not usually included in 'the West'. And besides, silk reaching Egypt does not prove that there was direct trade/contact Egypt and India/China. They might have bought it e.g. from Middle Eastern traders, who in turn traded with India. - Lindert (talk) 08:56, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The article Indus Valley Civilization says the Harappan culture (in Western India) may have traded with Crete in the 3rd millennium BC, though this seems uncertain. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:33, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Most trade was not done directly - it was done via intermediaries. Most people did not traverse the length of the Silk Road - one group traded with the next group, who traded with the next group, etc.  The same principle applied to trading by sea.  So, goods may have traveled long distances without any direct connection between the source culture and the ultimate destination, or knowledge of each other.  (As Lindert said...)  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:58, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

There were lots of Greeks who went to India after Alexander -- see Heliodorus pillar, Indo-Greeks, etc. Some coins of Kanishka had "BODDO" in Greek letters on them (i.e. Buddha). Nevertheless, books written by Greeks in the Mediterranean area show only the most shallow and superficial understanding of Indian civilization and religion. For semi-direct Roman-Chinese contacts, such as they were, see Romano-Chinese relations... AnonMoos (talk) 18:27, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Megasthenes, author of the Indica the first Western well known account of India. He was born in Asia Minor and became an ambassador of Seleucus I of Syria to Pataliputra, India, some time before 298 BC.184.147.121.51 (talk) 03:00, 28 July 2012 (UTC)