Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 February 14

= February 14 =

Civil wars where a separatist movement was crushed but at a high cost
Which cases where there where there was a civil war where a separatist movement was crushed but at a high cost? I can think of the American Civil War, the Vietnam War, the Iraqi Civil War (insofar as the ISIS Caliphate was a de facto separatist movement), and the Nigerian Civil War (aka Biafran War). However, which additional examples of this have there been? For the record, I am well-aware of other highly destructive civil wars–such as the Russian Civil War–but as far as I know the Russian Whites were not separatists–and neither were, say, the various factions in the Afghan Civil Wars that occurred starting from 1989 (and lasting all of the way up to the present-day, over 30 years later). I am also aware of other destructive separatist movements such as the Kashmir conflict, though I am unsure if its scale was actually sufficiently large for it to actually be described as a civil war. Indeed, I want to specifically focus on civil wars that involved separatist movements that ended up being crushed but at a high cost. Futurist110 (talk) 02:31, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * See Sri_Lankan_Civil_War. -Abdul Muhsy (talk) 05:41, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Excellent example! I wanted to include this later on, but I forgot about it! So, thank you for mentioning it! Futurist110 (talk) 20:24, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * See State of Katanga and Rif War. Xuxl (talk) 13:42, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Good examples! Futurist110 (talk) 20:24, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Northern Ireland 1960-1990 Farawayman (talk) 14:05, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I would disagree with that qualification, that conflict was far more complicated than simply a "separatist movement", and nothing was crushed, a peace agreement was reached. Also, your dates are wrong, 1969-1998 would be more accurate. Fgf10 (talk) 15:30, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Also depends on your definition of high cost: "During the period 1976–1993, most years saw 60–100 deaths related to The Troubles, or around 4.0–6.5/100,000 per annum" compared with "Manhattan continued to have the highest homicide rate in 1976, with 38.8 murders for each 100,000 residents". Alansplodge (talk) 18:58, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Erm no. Estimates vary, but that is just wrong. I'd go by the figure in our own article, which is over 3500. Documented UK militarily losses alone run in the hundreds. Fgf10 (talk) 09:02, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 * It was not a separatist movement, but a unionist movement. Bumptump (talk) 20:03, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, the goal was to separate from the United Kingdom, but not to create a new, independent state but to join the Republic of Ireland. So, it was both a separatist and a unionist movement? Futurist110 (talk) 20:24, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Two lots of terrorists, one wanted out and one wanted to stay in. No win either way. Alansplodge (talk) 12:01, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I think earlier Irish rebellions would better fit, as they were i) usually more obviously separatist/independence movements, and ii) killed a lot more people. Iapetus (talk) 11:58, 15 February 2021 (UTC)


 * The Wars of the Three Kingdoms had a separatist element, especially after the execution of Charles I and the rise of Oliver Cromwell in England, while Charles II's support remained strong in Scotland and Ireland. -- Jayron 32 14:01, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Gladstone on Martineau
Our article on James Martineau says "William Ewart Gladstone said of Martineau; "he is beyond question the greatest of living thinkers". This is referenced to . In fact, as far as I can tell from Google Books, the phrase does not appear in the book. The source is in fact a Goodreads review, as "William Ewart Gladstone said to Frances Power Cobbe, "Martineau is beyond question the greatest of living thinkers."" The only results for Google searches for the quotation are the Goodreads review and obvious cribs of our article. Can anyone find an actual source for the alleged quotation? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 10:44, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah! It's alright, I've found it in DuncanHill (talk) 10:56, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Where is Eastwater Point?
According to our Channel Tunnel article "In 1839, Aimé Thomé de Gamond, a Frenchman, performed the first geological and hydrographical surveys on the Channel, between Calais and Dover. Thomé de Gamond explored several schemes and, in 1856, he presented a proposal to Napoleon III for a mined railway tunnel from Cap Gris-Nez to Eastwater Point with a port/airshaft on the Varne sandbank" - but I cannot find Eastwater Point except in articles borrowing from us. Anyone know where it is? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 17:50, 14 February 2021 (UTC)


 * It's a typo (or just plain wrong). According to Channel Tunnel Visions, 1850-1945 (p. 6), the location was Eastwear Bay, nowadays generally spelt East Wear Bay. No Wikipedia article but it gets a mention in East Cliff and Warren Country Park. Alansplodge (talk) 18:19, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * fr:Chronologie du tunnel sous la Manche says: "1855, projet de l'ingénieur français Aimé Thomé de Gamond, qui propose un tunnel entre le cap Gris-Nez (Pas-de-Calais) et Eastwear-Point, avec des cheminées d'aération en pleine mer et la création d'une île artificielle au banc de Varnes, qui abriterait une gare maritime". Alansplodge (talk) 18:36, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * East Wear Point also gets a vote from Channel Tunnel, 1802-1967 (p. 10); "it was to be twenty - one miles long from Cap Gris Nez to East Wear Point ; at these places it would slope towards the surface to link with existing railways.
 * The headland forming the western limit of East Wear Bay is marked as Copt Point by the Ordnance Survey, which may be the same place. There isn't much of a headland at the eastern end, but there is Abbott's Cliff and Lyddon Spout, close to the modern tunnel. Alansplodge (talk)
 * Thank you, I'm now finding it also called "Eastware Point", for example here. DuncanHill (talk) 23:39, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps because nobody can find it on a map, they just make up a spelling. We ought to go with the Ordnance Survey. BTW, can you imagine Lord Palmerston approving this French tunnel? In 1860, he pushed through the biggest scheme of fortifications in British history to keep the French out which cost £9 million . Alansplodge (talk) 11:51, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Martha Ostenso
I am writing an article on Martha Ostenso, in Norwegian. As you may know, she was a Norwegian-born writer and published both novels and short stories. Most of the short stories were published in magazines that where very popular reading in the USA in her time. I have had the opportunity to write several articles on a lot of US ladies magazines, but I am missing three of them:


 * 1) National Home Monthly
 * 2)  Country Guide & No'west Farmer
 * 3) Canadian Home Journal

I would be very satisfied if you could post the articles, or alternatively give me information on them. --Trygve W Nodeland (talk) 21:28, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:Resource Exchange can help you look up books, journals and magazines. It's mainly designed to look up a reference in a resource you don't have paid access to. But the folks there might be willing to tell you about these magazines. LongHairedFop (talk) 09:12, 15 February 2021 (UTC)


 * References for Canadian Home Journal: Brief overview and some 1930s issues, pre First World War issues more issues 1909-1922. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:20, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you both! --Trygve W Nodeland (talk) 22:12, 17 February 2021 (UTC)