Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2017 September 29

= September 29 =

Truss type


I found this unusual truss bridge a couple of weeks ago while hiking. What kind of truss is it? Unless I'm confused, the structure is basically

/|\|\|\|X|/|/|/|\/\

It doesn't seem to match anything in Commons:Category:Truss bridge drawings. Maybe it's just an ad hoc bridge that some NPS crew built because it was what the foreman thought would work? Nyttend (talk) 01:07, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Here's my guess, and mind you I'm no a bridge expert. I imagine it's a combo of a few things. Note where the bridge bolts down to the earth. On one side it happens diagonally, and the other vertically. I don't think that's a structure decision so much as a practical one. Without those, it looks like a normal Pratt (I think). The difference is in the X in the middle, I'm guessing that was an aesthetic addition. Granted I could be completely wrong, but it's an interesting question. Drewmutt ( ^ᴥ^ ) talk  04:18, 29 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Pratt truss The diagonals slope downwards to make a V, thus they're in tension and it's a Pratt. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:03, 29 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, a Pratt truss. The cross on the middle doesn't look like it is there for aesthetic reasons but practical. It would make sense for a small bridge like this to weld it up in two manageable halves elsewhere and bolt it together once on-site. If you notices on the cross and upper and lower beams are sets of five sliding adjustment bolts to enable the two halves to be brought into perfect alignment. The cross is equally distant from each buttress that carries the load. On the right however, is a short extension the bring the tread-plate to ground level on that side. Aspro (talk) 16:01, 1 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Per my expert witness, the X truss is meant as a keystone, and basically distributes any excess stresses across the beam,rather than allowing failure at one point. (Were the bridge "stretched", the X would be another vee or two.) μηδείς (talk) 16:06, 1 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Don't see that at all at all. Keystones resist compressional forces only. The diagonal members of a truss are there  to resist 'tension'. Stone doesn't  perform well under tension – it snaps. That is why prestressed concrete beams are  pre-stressed. Wake your expert witness up with a cup-of-strong-sweet-tea (milk or lemon optional) and ask s/he again. Aspro (talk) 17:28, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Baked goods or pastry?
If I was to walk into a bakery store in Scotland and asked for 6 Americans, what would I get? My grandson saw this on some UK TV show. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 06:17, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Never heard of them. I live in England, but spend a fair amount of time in Edinburgh. --ColinFine (talk) 00:03, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Is there any chance that he remembers what show it was ? I've been Googling various word combinations and it looks like something is "lost in the translations" :-) If not hopefully someone else will know. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 00:40, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * He said it was Impractical Jokers UK. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 02:42, 30 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Blank looks.   D b f i r s   09:23, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Just to observe that slang in the UK can be extremely localised. Any widespread usage might have resulted in an internet presence, which we have so far failed to detect. Alansplodge (talk) 16:23, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Many years ago I saw an episode of a show called "You've Been Framed!"  The setup usually plays out in the clip.   What happened when the reporter asked the question? 82.14.24.95 (talk) 18:08, 30 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm stuck at work for another 7 hours. When I get home I will see if I can find the episode. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 21:33, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * one guess is that (considering the way the "humour" is played out on that show) the use of "Americans" might have been the point of the joke - as in there isn't anything by that name - but I am just guessing. The only thing that I saw in my searching that they might be referring to is the difference between a scone and a biscuit and the fact that some Americans think they are the same thing. Again this is just WP:OR on my part :-) MarnetteD&#124;Talk 22:18, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Americans do not think scones and biscuits are the same thing. Rather, a British scone is the closest thing you can find in Britain to an American biscuit.  A British biscuit would be a "cookie" in the States, though not all American cookies would be British biscuits.  An American scone can be a very wide range of things, full of "pumpkin spice" or cranberries or covered with lemon icing.  I don't know what you'd call them in Britain.  Maybe "cakes"? --Trovatore (talk) 19:32, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I was only quoting what I found in my google searching T. Based on this and this and this "some" Americans do confuse the two. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 20:18, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll try and see what the object was they were referring to. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 23:45, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * CambridgeBayWeather, you are missing the entire point – no baked product is known in Scotland (or the rest of the UK to my knowledge) as an "american", and the hoaxer would not have indicated any particular product when asking, or else the shop assistant would have just silently thought "We've got a right eejit here", and served up 6 of those things. The point of the hoax was to puzzle the assistant and see what, if anything, might be offered as "americans". {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.217.210.199 (talk) 01:06, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * IP you are being harsh. As I read the posts CBW hasn't seen the episode yet. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 01:14, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Finally saw the episode in question. It's season two, episode one entitled Bakery and begins about 15 minutes in. It takes place in Alloa and there is something in that bakery called an American that comes in a four pack. The hoaxer is working behind the counter as one of the staff. The woman he is serving asks first for a "four pack of Americans". After some joking from the hoaxer, Paul McCaffrey, she says she wants a "French Fancy and the Americans." She isn't part of the joke and is asking for a specific product. I thought that perhaps my grandson had misheard due to the accent but because the woman is speaking quietly her comments are subtitled. So no mistake there. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 05:06, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, knock me down with a fairy cake. I lived in Scotland for 7 years, and never saw or heard of such a product there, or anywhere else in the UK. I'll be interested to find out myself if anyone comes up with an answer. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.217.210.199 (talk) 06:12, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * @CambridgeBayWeather, does the TV episode show the shop frontage? Eg Heavenly Bakes & Cakes. Others are available. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 07:08, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * If I were to guess I'd say you'd probably get some American muffins. Presumably they also sell the flatbread 'English' variety. -- zzuuzz (talk) 07:42, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The video is on youtube. Starting at 14:45, we see a pack of four bread rolls, these are the "Americans" in question (as she confirms at 15:10). They look like Hamburger buns to me, probably just branded as "American style" or something. --Wrongfilter (talk) 07:54, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Given that they appear to come in packs of four, you will be told not to be daft if you ask for six. Wymspen (talk) 11:59, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks all. The bakery is "Bayne's"., I didn't realise that what she was referring to was the buns she passed the hoaxer. Thanks for spotting that. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 15:32, 1 October 2017 (UTC)


 * In Ameica, scones are large dry cakes, not very sweet, with raisins or such. Bsccuits are very dry "crackers", small and unleavened.  The idea that leavened sweet cookies are called biscuits (when they aren't even cooked twice) strikes us as bizarre. μηδείς (talk) 16:38, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks As a long time (and getting longer everyday) anglophile I knew the difference :-) I was just speculating on the answer to the question with what I was finding in my google search. What the others found was interesting. Cheers to all. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 16:58, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Nabisco got its start at a time in America when what we now call crackers were still being called biscuits (a term which does, indeed, mean 'twice-baked'). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:00, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I had never heard of Cracker (food) being called biscuits. If I asked someone to get me some biscuits then I would expect to get pilot biscuits. I wouldn't expect them to get a package to make Biscuit (bread). If I wanted the last I would ask for tea biscuits and get a package of Bisquick. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 18:08, 1 October 2017 (UTC)


 * I have no idea why they call it Bisquick, since we use it only for pancakes and stew dumplings, neither of which is cooked twice. The only biscuits I can think of are either expensive gourmet crackers which my dad likes for some odd reason, or lady-fingers and croutons which are, actually, twice cooked. μηδείς (talk) 21:20, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * That's Ladyfinger (biscuit). CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 00:38, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * You've never had buttermilk biscuits, or even Pillsbury Doughboy? Those are the only things I think of as biscuits.  Looking at the article, I'm guessing you're talking about something like a sea biscuit?  Which I had never known as anything but a horse. --Trovatore (talk) 23:37, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * In the UK, "cheese and biscuits" means cheese with crackers, both words are in use here - supermarkets sometimes label them "savoury biscuits", the poshest ones are Bath Olivers but most go with cream crackers. We're also big on sweet biscuits to go with tea (or sometimes actually dunked into it, but not in polite company), see custard creams, ginger nuts, rich tea, digestive biscuits, Bourbon biscuits Nice biscuits, malted milk and the new kid on the block, Hobnobs. The term "cookie" here applies specifically to American style ones, especially with chocolate chips. Alansplodge (talk) 11:00, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * But I was responding to Medeis, who's American. I was very surprised by her claim that Americans think biscuits are hard.  In my experience, American biscuits are always soft, at least in the middle, though they might get a little crisp at the very top. --Trovatore (talk) 19:57, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, I lost the thrust of the discussion somehow. Alansplodge (talk) 10:12, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I like buttermilk biscuits, but they are pastries in my book--and not cooked twice. When I think biscuit, I think saltine or matzoh.  Chocolate Chip cookies are certainly not cooked twice.  It strikes me as odd the Brits don't speak proper English.  :)  Probably a drugs problem, or lack of skill in maths. μηδείς (talk) 23:19, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, so I don't think that's standard American usage, at least not any regional variety I've ever encountered. "Biscuit" by default means buttermilk biscuit (or at least buttermilk biscuit minus the buttermilk). --Trovatore (talk) 00:18, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * TV ads for places like Hardee's which serve biscuits typically show the kind you're talking about. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:37, 4 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Trovatore is right, [remove personal attack]. Crackers are not commonly called biscuits in standard American usage. Biscuit explains what we mean by that in the USA just fine, correctly redirecting readers to Biscuit_(bread) .  SemanticMantis (talk) 17:45, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Didn't we just discuss this? Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study & Programme for International Student Assessment. Too much skills in maths maybe? Nil Einne (talk) 08:23, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It's more likely that we don't really care how many times those Italian chaps bake their biscuits, we just borrowed the name rather than the technique. Alansplodge (talk) 17:43, 4 October 2017 (UTC)


 * This Engvar nonsense is not helpful. Biscuit means twice-cooked.  That a certain type of Southern-style Americane scone is also called a biscuit is neither hear nor their.  In my house, we call them muffins. Amazing how hostile people get over words. μηδείς (talk) 22:07, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Etymologically, yes, that's where the word comes from. That's not what it means in American English (nor British English either).  In American English the word "biscuit" refers almost exclusively to the soft quickbread. --Trovatore (talk) 22:13, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll agree on one point. Your assertions are of equal value to mine.  Not your pictures or etymology, or your assumption that a single foodstuff, the Southern Biscuit is the biscuit.  But I believe you say what you believe.  And you're civil. μηδείς (talk) 01:12, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, I certainly hope so. There's nothing to get unpleasant about, and I generally enjoy reading your contributions.  I'm not "assuming" that a particular biscuit is "the biscuit", just reporting on my experience with American English.  I've never heard an American (or a Brit, for that matter) refer to a saltine as a "biscuit", even if it is cooked twice.  "Dog biscuits" are a thing, but that's kind of a special case; they wouldn't be biscuits if they didn't have "dog" attached.  Ladyfingers I guess I'd call a "cookie".  Biscotti are nice for dunking, but I wouldn't call them "biscuits", no matter if the two words are cognate. --Trovatore (talk) 02:19, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Blind people and hallucinations
Do blind people get visual hallucinations (e.g. when using LSD)? &#40;&#40;&#40;The Quixotic Potato&#41;&#41;&#41; (talk) 14:28, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * What did you get when you searched for blind people hallucinations in Google? In my case, it found this and this and this among many others. Matt Deres (talk) 14:43, 29 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I googled it in my own language and the results were rather unimpressive. &#40;&#40;&#40;The Quixotic Potato&#41;&#41;&#41; (talk) 16:17, 29 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The 230th and final result I see appears to be "Online USA Drugstore: Viagra spray Pfizer money back guaranteed", but when I click it, it morphs into AWC Drugstore, run by the iMENA Group from Dubai Media City. I didn't even know media cities were real. Quite impressive. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:20, 29 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I'll just give Oliver Sacks as a blanket source who discusses many hallucinations in people with damage to their sight, But while people who go blind after a certain age can report or be found to suffer from visual hallucinations, people who are blind from birth have undeveloped visual cortices, (see Matt's second source above) mostly reused for other purposes (especially hearing) and although they might imaginably experience visual-type qualia, there would be no common reference point for us to compare or communicate such things.


 * In other words, never having seen a rose, they might hypothetically experience red when they touch soft things, but never having seen a rose or anything red they could not say, oh, I see the color of a rose when I touch my cotton bedclothes. μηδείς (talk) 18:49, 29 September 2017 (UTC)