Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 May 15



Module:Loader

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was Well, it's still unused. No prejudice to restoration if someone is *actually* going to use it. - F ASTILY   01:22, 27 May 2020 (UTC) Unused * Pppery * it has begun... 17:45, 1 May 2020 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * loader

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, TheTVExpert (talk) 18:38, 8 May 2020 (UTC) I wrote this module with the following use case on mind:

If you  at the beginning of your module, then all pages invoking your module will transclude Module:Error, even though no error has occurred. This may be misleading, because one may expect Module:Error to be transcluded only from those few pages with actual errors. You can use Module:Loader to solve this problem.

However, if your module calls  from one place only, then it is simpler to just   right where you need it. That happened to be my case as well, so Module:Loader ended up unused.

But I hope that it is well documented and ready to help anyone who finds it useful. Petr Matas 22:05, 11 May 2020 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, TheTVExpert (talk) 20:27, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Other uses2

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was replace and delete. This will, in due time, mean the removal of that code from the related module as well. Primefac (talk) 00:26, 1 June 2020 (UTC) This template, and correspondingly distinguish-otheruses2, which is separately up for deletion, both function only as conveniences for users who understand them well: they save writing a few characters: and  are completely equivalent, and  and  are equivalent. While I won't argue that it offers some trivial amount of convenience, in the broader scope of hatnote templates, the variety of hatnote templates is daunting for new users, so this template is a net negative in usability by contributing to the confusion of newbies, for minimal gain. We should delete it, replacing it with equivalent calls to other uses, to improve the series of templates by paring them down. {&#123; Nihiltres &#8202;&#124;talk&#8202;&#124;edits}&#125; 18:47, 16 April 2020 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Other uses2
 * Yeah, things would definitely be easier if this template weren't used. If you see a hatnote with the code you immediately know what it's about.  is rather more opaque – you wouldn't normally parse it unless you specifically know the template. I'm OK with deletion, but I'm wondering about its use simply as a typing aid – it's got about 2,400 transclusions, so presumably quite a few people out there are using it. If we don't want to make things inconvenient for them, we could set up the template so that it gets automatically substed as other uses – that way we gain the simplicity (no uses of the template lying around) but keep the convenience (people still able to use it). – Uanfala (talk) 20:28, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I could in theory get behind the automatic-subst strategy, but my goal here is partly to reduce what's documented to make things easier for newbies, and having a relatively undocumented template would be bad practice. On the number of transclusions … it's a large number in absolute terms, sure, but in relative terms it represents about 4% of combined uses between itself and other uses. {&#123; Nihiltres &#8202;&#124;talk&#8202;&#124;edits}&#125; 16:46, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't want to have this template linked from the documentation either (it's likely to be confusing for newbies as it doesn't do what you'd expect it to if you know other hatnote templates with names ending in "2"). If it's removed from the documentation pages, it will itself of course continue to be documented. I have to clarify that I'm in favour of straight-out deletion, but was just pointing out a way to accommodate any editors who might want to continue using the template. – Uanfala (talk) 17:08, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. Unlike distinguish-otheruses2, which is a combination of two hatnote templates that are better understood separately, this template is a useful and widely used standardization. --Bsherr (talk) 22:16, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete Insufficient complexity of markup to warrant a template, as I discovered in Templates for discussion/Log/2018 September 23 * Pppery * it has begun... 20:54, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete/merge - Surely we can run this from one template? A quick extra parameter of something like |d=y would be plenty to generate disambig? Having two templates seems significantly overkill. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I think that would be a reasonable alternative. --Bsherr (talk) 17:04, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't like this option—I think it's still needless complexity compared to typing " (disambiguation)"—but I would prefer merging this template to keeping it, if and only if it came down to that. {&#123; Nihiltres &#8202;&#124;talk&#8202;&#124;edits}&#125; 17:27, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ (talk) 14:45, 28 April 2020 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I know we're getting on a bit, but there's a bit of a tie between simply deleting and turning this (at least temporarily) into a subst-only wrapper. Relisting once more just to garner more opinions on that topic.
 * I'm significantly more okay with having an extra shortcut (could be the 2 or could be something like y) that automatically substitutes the longer form than I am with this template remaining overall, violating WP:CONSOLIDATE. It's not a big deal to have a wrapper template and a small bullet point in the documentation of Template:Other uses saying "you can use this shortcut". &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 17:42, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * ... except this isn't a wrapper template, it invokes its own custom Lua code for no reason. * Pppery * it has begun... 20:39, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * yeah, my view is that, if kept in some form, it should be converted into one that invokes Other uses with y. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 20:43, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This has "its own custom Lua code" (a separate function within Module:Other uses) as part of a design decision that all the hatnote template logic should be written in Lua with no extra logic at the template level. That design decision makes it easier to reason about the function of each template and module, and therefore to maintain the family of templates. {&#123; Nihiltres &#8202;&#124;talk&#8202;&#124;edits}&#125; 22:59, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep and wrapperify (is that a thing?) Turn into a simple wrapper for Other uses and have it substed automatically. Then remove the corresponding lua code from Module:Other uses. Mdaniels5757 (talk) 00:30, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep and wrapperify per and  - it's a useful shortcut which doesn't really do any harm, so long as it is clearly as a shortcut and nothing more. There's no point in having separate Lua code for it. Naypta ☺ &#124; ✉ talk page &#124; 12:53, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Mdaniels5757 and Sdkb described different approaches: Sdkb described a merge with other uses, while Mdaniels5757 described a, hmm, minimization to an automatically-substituted shortcut. These approaches are mutually exclusive. Do you prefer one over the other? I prefer the merge, because I do see harm in the shortcut form: it requires either needless extra documentation (exactly what I'd like to minimize!), or a relatively undocumented template (which is bad form). {&#123; Nihiltres &#8202;&#124;talk&#8202;&#124;edits}&#125; 05:54, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I see that distinction in what they said; I'm sure will correct me if my interpretation of what they were proposing is wrong, but from my understanding, they had proposed much the same idea of having a small wrapper shortcut: it should be converted into one that invokes Other uses with y. Either way, that's the argument which seems to make the most sense to me; we could redirect the documentation page just to the documentation of Other uses, and have a small note there as suggested that the shortcut existed. Naypta ☺ &#124; ✉ talk page &#124; 12:10, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "Converting the template into a wrapper" alone accomplishes nothing new, because the template is already a wrapper, at the Lua level. It's a wrapper at the Lua level rather than at the wikitext level because that's a better design decision at the level of the family of hatnote templates. My preferences, in order, are: a) my original proposal, to delete the template with no "convenience" added, converting its transclusions to their equivalent in other uses as it exists today, b) Lee Vilenski's proposal, endorsed by Sdkb, to merge the templates into other uses, adding a single optional convenience parameter to that template to replicate the old functionality, or c) Mdaniels5757's proposal, to convert the template into a wrapper at the wikitext level and auto-substitute it, which means that there'd be no uses of other uses2 "in the wild" except between each bot run to substitute such templates. I dislike (b) because it means either i) newbies see an opaque template parameter or ii) the parameter name is long enough to minimize the convenience benefit. I dislike (c) because it's messy to leave the template around as a substituted wrapper just so experienced users—who likely know enough to be able to change their habits—can shave off a second or few of typing. {&#123; Nihiltres &#8202;&#124;talk&#8202;&#124;edits}&#125; 04:23, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Hrm, I understand what you're getting at now - thanks for the explanation. I've struck through my !vote because I'd need to think quite a bit more about this I think to have a sufficient opinion. I suppose one option might be to make VisualEditor better, thereby reducing the need for the thing in the first place - perhaps with a "hatnote" option under the "insert" menu. If consensus is to delete, though, given the significant number of transclusions, it might be a better idea to deprecate it for a while before removing it completely. Naypta ☺ &#124; ✉ talk page &#124; 10:33, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * And to add my own five cents to the discussion, I would like to point out that in my opinion deletion is ultimately the best option – the template doesn't really fit within the system of hatnote templates (of the ones whose name ends in "2", all except one do custom text rather than append "(disambiguation)"), and the little bit of time it saves in typing isn't worth the extra complexity. The only thing that would make deletion undesirable at this stage is if a lot of people use it, but we don't know if people do use it. One option is to substitute all uses, then wait for a couple of months to see if any new ones have cropped up, and then either delete it (if there weren't many uses), or otherwise go through a period of deprecation. Or maybe deleting it straight away now will be the least trouble overall? – Uanfala (talk) 12:08, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Primefac (talk) 20:22, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Replace and delete. Needless complexity for a minor use case handled by the existing template. I look at its current transclusions and the most elegant solution is simply to leave out the first parameter altogether in most examples, which will link to the article's title with "(disambiguation)" appended. If editors want to get more specific than that with their first parameter, there should be no issue in writing out "(disambiguation)" manually. (not watching, please )  czar  02:47, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Resurrection appearances

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was no consensus. (non-admin closure) TheTVExpert (talk) 21:49, 23 May 2020 (UTC) Does it really make sense to keep this as a template? Isn't the information better presented conventionally in Resurrection of Jesus without the template frame? PPEMES (talk) 15:51, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Resurrection appearances
 * Eh.... gooed question, I guess. It seems to be used at several pages; that might be a reason to keep it? Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  19:00, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, is that really comme-il-faut in this case? PPEMES (talk) 20:03, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The table gives a convenient overview; it makes it easier to see how the various gospels digress from each other. And it's collapsible, because a large table like this looks awkward an sich in an article with normal text. So, I don't see why it wouldn't be usefull. Post-Resurrection appearances of Jesus for it's usage. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  20:17, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, would you mind that we WP:LISTIFY it then? PPEMES (talk) 08:54, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * ? Listify means delete in this context. Templates, lists, and categories are three distinct and separate ways of presenting a subject, they are not supposed to be used to eliminate any of the others. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:17, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Listify? What's the use? Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  23:49, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The idea is simply to transform the content out of the template frame and into the article realm somehere. PPEMES (talk) 08:43, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * A table is more convenient; it gives an easily readable overview of the comparable parts of the various texts. NB: the reason it's a template is to have the same info accessie at various pages. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  12:14, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure. Not arguing against its current appearance. Just urging evaluation whether template format is optimal. Implicitly, I'm wondering whether one or a couple locations tops don't suffice. As such, a template format would not be needed. We tend to avoid template-embedding article realm contents. PPEMES (talk) 14:34, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Strong keep, seriously? This is a very fine and detailed template that editors put a lot of work into. Jesus! (literally and as an exclamation). Randy Kryn (talk) 23:15, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I read it again; yes, fine and detailed indeed. NB: there's an error in it; 28:16-20 does not belong in the second column. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  23:49, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The nomination does not imply any negativity to the quality of the contents per se, but merely a suggestion to transform the contents from the template format into plain article realm content. Thanks! PPEMES (talk) 08:23, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Use in an article and delete template. This is an article masquerading as a template. Per WP:TG, templates should not store article text. This whole template is just that and isn't transcluded in any article, but linked to. Either use in an article or convert to a stand-alone article (which is then subject to regular article content guidelines) and then delete this template. --Gonnym (talk) 10:59, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Stand-alone would be preferable. The table is quite large for mobile view. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  13:11, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Primefac (talk) 02:09, 18 April 2020 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep this template is used on several articles to keep content contemporaneous. Therefore it serves a useful rule for both readers and editors alike. --Tom (LT) (talk) 06:05, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Could you point to the article that transcludes this template? I can't seem to find any. --Gonnym (talk) 10:43, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * No I can't, because since this discussion has started all the transclusions have disappeared. --Tom (LT) (talk) 05:50, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Primefac (talk) 01:47, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete after SUBST into Resurrection of Jesus (or some other article if there i a better target suggested). This is article text and belongs in an article.  -- Whpq (talk) 12:51, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork <sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ <sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk) 14:59, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Substitute per and redirect to preserve history. Collapsed tables are prohibited by MOS:ACCESS. The table should be added to an article and then the template redirected to any other appropriate template so that the history is preserved for attribution. --Bsherr (talk) 16:37, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Substitute and redirect as an article-space redirect to avoid cross-namespace redirects, but still preserve history for attribution. I concur that the collapsible tables are bad per MOS:COLLAPSE. Frietjes (talk) 23:18, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Uw-recentblockwarn
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. (non-admin closure) TheTVExpert (talk) 12:35, 22 May 2020 (UTC) Largely redundant. Most users use Template:Uw-vandalism4im or other 4im templates. 4im templates are applied if the content is grossly insulting, degrading or offensive, libellous or if the edits were done in a purely disruptive nature (bad-faith editing), as well as for editors who’ve been recently blocked. We don’t need two templates (1 used frequently and 1 redundant) that mean the same thing. Train of Knowledge (Talk) 05:49, 8 May 2020 (UTC) <div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Uw-recentblockwarn

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, TheTVExpert (talk) 12:34, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. I concur. Our preference should be for user warnings that clearly describe the problem, and this one doesn't. --Bsherr (talk) 12:43, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Uw-sandboxblock
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. (non-admin closure) TheTVExpert (talk) 12:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC) Requested to be deleted under G7 by the creator but I'd like to see it go through TfD as it's a UW template that's existed for three years. See also: this discussion. <b style="font-family:Papyrus"> Anarchyte </b> ( talk &#8226;  work ) 09:37, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Uw-sandboxblock
 * I tagged it for db-g7 myself as it was something I created while learning to edit properly a long time ago, I see no use for this template. This is part of a larger cleanup I am doing, me looking back into my contributions and tagging stuff that does not make sense now.  I no longer create templates like this anymore. Aasim 09:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. The template is to be substituted, and the template nametag was incorrect, so I tried searching a string of text from the template instead and didn't see any results. Looks like it hasn't been used. --Bsherr (talk) 12:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete G7 contains no requirement that the page has been created recently. This should not have gone to TfD. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 02:10, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I actually support the choice of forum. As a template that has been integrated into the user warning templates system, its deletion probably shouldn't be unilateral by the author. --Bsherr (talk) 02:24, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).