Wikipedia talk:Administrator intervention against vandalism/Archive 5

Paul Dacre
Perhaps I'm getting too involved in this and having done my 3 reverts in 24 hours, I'll use the time to cool off, but surely calling someone a racist, paedophile and sexist is vandalism. I'm willing to take NawlinWiki's point about how it can be viewed as a content dispute and I suppose there's a fine line between the two categories. Paulhinds 15:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

User:GoGoGobots
Okay, these pages go in circles. One page says that stuff like this goes in another page, and that page links to another, and then that page links back at the first one, so I'm going to report this person here. He only edits the Gobots article. He has changed it 12 times. He always does the same thing. He changes it from Gobots to K-Mart Bots or something. Obvious vandal. Please ban.Triikan 12:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Problem with posts
For some reason, recent vandal reports that have been made have not been able to use the Wikipedia code and have simply shown up as the characters that are typed when posting.--Conrad Devonshire Talk  06:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You forgot a &lt;/nowiki&gt;. I put it in for you. MER-C 06:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I've created a template for use with this page
I created the following template for use with Administrator intervention against vandalism. It's and is seen below:

Your repeated efforts to vandalize articles makes it seem that you are unaware that Wikipedia is a serious project. You have been reported to the administration group for continuing vandalism and an administrator will review your contributions shortly. You may not receive another warning before being blocked, so be careful and be serious from now on. If you are blocked, please reconsider your behavior once the block expires.

Please consider it's use on offending user talk pages to notify them of being reported on this page. If it's acceptable, let me know what I can do to add it to Template messages/User talk namespace. Thanks, BrianZ (talk) 17:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * What does it add to the existing ones? It's a little wordy and contains at least one spelling error as well. --Guinnog 17:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It adds a link to WP:AIV so that offenders know that there is a record and report of their activity. Less-persistant vandals (such as ten year olds adding the phrase "Joe Smith smells like 3 day old diapers" to the NATO article, may stop at the suggestion that admins are watching them and aware of their activity. Also, Many other templates are in the form of "Stop... or I'll say stop again." By using this template, non-admins can state that the offending user has been warned several times and now reported as a final resort. As far as spelling error... Where? I can be wordy myself so I understand what you're saying. :) Thanks for your input BrianZ (talk) 18:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Made changes based on Guinnog's suggestions. Brian Z (talk) 18:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I've never been a big fan of linking vandals to AIV. Most probably don't know it exists, and telling them, "You've been reported here!" might be a form of WP:BEANS. I think getting in the practice of linking vandals here would increase the number of times vandals try to remove their own entry or blank the entire page or who knows what. Anybody else agree, or am I just being too cautious? (P.S.- On these same lines, though, I wouldn't be opposed to saying, You have been reported to an administrator, who will review your edits shortly. without the link.) EWS23  (Leave me a message!) 19:42, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've made changes like you requested, as after hearing your POV I agree with you 100% EWS23. Please see changed template above. The warning itself still let's the offender know that they have been reported to administration and blocking is most likely inevitable yet it's not in a threatening tone. Brian Z (talk) 19:58, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * This template seems sorta usless to me...This thing seems like an inbetween for test4 and test5, which is pretty pointless to me. KojiDude (talk) 20:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've never thought that test4 and test5 were something a regular editor without admin permissions should use. They basically say, "Stop, or you might get blocked if an admin notices your vandalism." (Unless I'm wrong and they are added to a category that admins regularly check). This template tells the vandal that administration has been notified of their behavior directly. If I'm wrong and test4 and test5 do add a user to a list patrolled by admins than I agree, this template wouldn't be needed. I personally never tell someone they'll be blocked the next time that they vandalize if I can't be sure they will. Brian Z (talk) 20:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not a big fan of telling people they've been reported here. It effectively says "I want to block you, but have no power myself" which just encourages vandals as they know they're getting away with it. -- Steel 20:57, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand what you're saying but, if used correctly and the user is added to the WP:AIV page at the same time, they won't be getting away with anything. I also disagree that non-admins don't have power. I think that we all have power to make WP better, we just don't have permissions to block users. We have the power to notify administration to curtail vandalism and other poor behavior. Brian Z (talk) 21:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Vote for use
Please discuss improvements to the possible template in the space above. If we can't come to a concensus, then I'd just assume the template be deleted. Please vote here:

*Yes - As said... if you WANT to use it, you can use it... but if you dont want to use it. don't. --Deenoe 20:52, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes - Granted it's my template, but I've had about 3 instances in which I wished I had something like this in the last 2 weeks. It's why I created it. <font color="Teal">Brian <font color="Gray">Z (talk) 21:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes - or something like it. Rklawton 21:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No per Steel's comment. --Chris (talk) 21:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral After a short reflexion.. I figured that giving them the link they would probably vandalize the list too... --<b style="color:#006633;">Deenoe</b> 01:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Comments

 * Why are we voting on this? If you want to use it, use it. If you don't want to use it, don't use it. -- Steel 21:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't want to arbitrarily add a template I created to Template messages/User talk namespace. I was under the impression that it should be voted on and approved by a group. I was trying to do the right thing. If it's unneccessary I'll add it to the page. <font color="Teal">Brian <font color="Gray">Z (talk) 21:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * A vote isn't really appropriate. If you want consensus, you have to convince others that the template is good, or be convinced that it isn't, not take down numbers. Do you think that the current templates, specifically the ones with the stop hand that say it is your "last warning" and you will be blocked for vandalism, are ineffective? I don't think that a vandal should at all be notified of this page, or given any sort of peek at how Wikipedia works to stop vandalism. If this vandalism will encourage vandals to come to this page and remove vandalism warnings, of it will be a sort of WP:BEANS, that leads them to realize they could mess up Wikipedia even more than just adding obscene words, that escalates the problem from what might just a be a kid who will stop given test4 and someone who realizes they could have even more "fun" by messing up administrative noticeboards, etc. All the vandal needs to know is that he will be blocked if he continues. —Centrx→talk &bull; 07:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But you know this, don't you? ;-); btw, I don't see a need at all for this template, and have to echo Centrx in this regard. Lectonar 09:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with you Centrx, It's the reason I changed the template. It no longer points users to WP:AIV because it has already been said that leading vandals here is inapproriate. I feel that the template is neccessary for non-admins, because we can't be sure that they'll be blocked when we place a warning on their talk page. I've been away from Wikipedia for the weekend and thought about this alot and now have a fresh look at this discussion, I'm even more convinced the template should be used and since improvements have been made based on everyone's concerns, I would consider this voting/consensus a success. I do feel I did the right thing, and I will continue to ask for peer advice before adding templates to Wiki community pages. Solution: I'll add the template to my userspace and use it myself and if others would like to use it, they can find out where it is. I will not add it to the Template Messages page though. Maybe someone, who is more qualified then myself, will in the future. Thanks for all your valued input, each one of you should receive a wikithanks and I would if I had more time. :) <font color="Teal">Brian <font color="Gray">Z (talk) 21:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Purge link added.
I noticed that after the main page had been emptied, one entry was still left no matter what I did. Therefore, I added a server-side cache purger. I did not add it to the header because it would purge the header's cache, not this page's cache. Jesse Viviano 06:36, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Warning process
This is at least partly beyond the scope of this page; so may maybe this is not the right forum. If that’s the case, where should I go? I can’t figure out the warning process. Specific issues:
 * If I discover that someone has vandalized three pages at once, is it legitimate to issue test, test2, and test3 at the same time? Or does there have to be separate vandalism after each warning to justify the next?
 * The instruction says, “Do not list here if … The vandal has not received the full range of test warnings recently (i.e., within the previous week).” Does that statement imply that if someone vandalizes regularly twice a week, he should never be reported?
 * I can’t find anywhere that it explains the standard for issuing blatantvandal? Do this and this qualify? --teb728 07:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Typically, one doesn't issue multiple test templates at the same time. They're issued seperately because it gives the user time to read it. If they don't correct their behaviour, you issue the next one. etc. As for the blatentvandal template, the talk page is the closest thing to a standard, and says: "This is intended for use where vandalism is extreme or obscene and not for newby tests and general silliness.". For incredibly extreme cases, can also be issued. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk |
 * If your repeat user is stopping just short of a test4, then coming back a week later to continue, I'd issue a bv or, if it's repeatedly repeated, test4im. If all of their edits seem to be vandalism and they're repeatedly leaving at test4s, I would at least try to report it here. IP addresses are a different issue, though, because multiple people may share the same one. It really depends on the specifics of the situation. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 08:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

More sysops watching this page?
Is it possible we can have more sysops with experience dealing with vandals watching this page? Twice in the past 12 hours I've had to point out an AIV backlog to a sysop on IRC (#wikipedia), but we simply can't afford to have more than a couple of people listed here for more than, say, 10 minutes. It puts more strain on the few RC patrollers we have left (I used to do up to 150 reverts per day but had to stop due to other janitorial tasks needing attention) and doesn't take that long to empty. --Draicone (talk) 22:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It does seem to be backlogged more often; not sure if that because there are less admins watching it, or more vandals. Probably the latter.  You'll probably want to post this elsewhere (if you haven't already), since most of the people liable to read it are probably already watching this page. -- Nataly a  23:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Please check timestamp of last warning to that of last vandalism
Several times I've seen users get banned while I'm looking into the cases listed on this page, even though they have done nothing since the last/only warning. Just a reminder. (This is a lot easier to do if you set your time zone to +0, so the signature timestamps match those in the contributions log) -Goldom ‽‽‽ ⁂ 23:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If you're referring to my blocking of User:Luci-chan, I'm pretty sure the blatant vandal warning came between the two acts of vandalism. (It was hard to tell, though, since it all happened in a 2 minute time span, and Wikipedia doesn't give seconds, only minutes) — Mets 501 (talk) 23:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Wasn't referring to any in particular, just been seeing it a bunch over a couple days. If you're trying, don't worry about it :) -Goldom ‽‽‽ ⁂ 23:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No problem :-) — Mets 501 (talk) 23:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Definition of last few hours?
On point number 3 under the sub-section of Editors, it is stated; The vandal vandalized within the last few hours and after the final warning. Can I know what is the definition of last few hours. Could it be three or even up to 20 hours? The statement is a bit vague here. -- S iva1979 <sup style="background:yellow;">Talk to me  01:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably should be the last "couple" hours, basically like 0-3 hours, I think. — Mets 501 (talk) 13:01, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It depends if it's a shared IP address or not, too; you might have ten different users using a shared IP in an hour, but one user with their own IP/account might vandalize articles throughout the entire day. If you're in doubt about the time being a bit too long, you can always leave a final warning, but use your discretion. -- Nataly a  15:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Media:Example.ogg appears magically; 670+ ghits
I was editing my page and [[Media:Example.ogg]] appeared magically. I recently downloaded CorHomo. The discussion page (found by popup) for [[Media:Example.ogg]] has this message: This is a page used by kiddie vandals to insert nonsense into Wikipedia. Bart133 (t) 02:11, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC) Thanks--Ling.Nut 13:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

not sure what to do / newbie report
Hi, browsing Wikipedia, I discovered something strange on that page : Spear of destiny (I "reverted" it, look in the history), I think it's form of vandalism but I only read wikipedia, I don't know the terms, there seem to be very much rules and terms, so I try to report it, hope it will help. thanks -- 83.214.221.37 22:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was vandalism, thank you for reverting it . <font face="Tahoma">thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 22:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, this appears to be simple vandalism. Basically what you did was all that needed to me done: revert and move on.  If the user continues to vandalize, simply report them at WP:AIV.  --Chris (talk) 22:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Need some help understanding warning of vandals
User:209.43.33.201 was warned and blocked on 5 May 2006. He received another last warning on 15 May 2006 but was not blocked. Now, on 14 September, he has vandalized again. I have left a test4 warning. Is this appropriate. It has been 4 months since the last vandalism and since this might easily be a school account, it might not be the same person. Are we supposed to go back to a first-level warning using "test" or should we pick up where we left off with test4?

--Richard 17:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Its possible that the ip address has been reassigned considering it hasnt been used in months. So assuming good faith, I begin from test 1 -- Lost (talk) 18:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I did a reverse DNS (that's OK, right?) on the IP and it is indeed a school account, one run by Hamilton Southeastern Schools near Indianapolis. I am inclinded to believe that Richard's analisys is likely correct, and that the gap in vandalism is due to the summer holidays. I'm having a similar problem with the item below. Maury 20:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Long term block appropriate when?
I was wondering if anyone could help me with the problems being caused by User talk:216.185.69.97. This is an annon account, but given the edit histories it actually appears to be a single student within the school. Almost every edit in recent times has consisted of two or three edits to the same article, generally to insert sophmoric scatalogical comments. Several admins have applied blocks, including myself, but a new graphitti run starts as soon as it wears off.

Is this an example of an account that could safely be blocked long-term (ie, until school ends in June) for annon users only? If a user logs into the account, will they be directed somewhere where they will clearly see what has happened, and what to do about it? I'd hate to end up blocking an innocent user who can't even figure out what's going on.

Maury 20:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. This is a tough one. Historically, we really don't like applying blocks of more than hours to IP addresses for fear of collateral damage (the first experience of a new Wikipedia users should not be to click edit and get a "you can't edit" message, after all). So I'd be fearful of imposing a block of any appreciable length on an IP.


 * However, that isn't to say I haven't done so in the past. If the IP in question is clearly only one editor (and I don't mean "mostly" or "mainly", I mean "only") then a block of length is not inappropriate, especially if accompanied by a request to contact Wikimedia or the blocking admin directly for confirmation. If the IP is regularly, but not exclusively, used for wide-ranging vandalism, then an anon-only block of median length can be justified, but is likely to be overturned should any legit user complain. If the IP is producing legal or death threats, or targeting a single user with hate speech or personal attacks, then I would block but watchlist the talk page in case of an appeal - and request that the IT administrator at the IP contact me or the Foundation.


 * I suppose it comes down to individual judgment in the end. Suffice to say it's a subject were we do block anon shared IP addresses for long terms, but really wish we didn't. ➨  ЯEDVERS  22:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Is...
...removing large parts of an article - but part of a content dispute (whereas the warring parties don't communicate) considered vandalism - as per Blanking? --HolyRomanEmperor 09:06, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It can be if it's done in bad faith. --Woohookitty(meow) 10:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * For example, please view Duklja, Travunia and Zahumlje (and their talk pages and histories). --HolyRomanEmperor 21:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong..
...but WP:AIV is NOT the place to report about bad usernames, is it? --<b style="color:#006633;">Deenoe</b> 11:09, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Not really, but it does grab admin's attention if they happen to miss it on the Recent Changes. Doesn't seem to be a big deal to me.-- Koji Dude  (viva la BAM!) 21:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If it is obviously offensive, this is the correct forum. See Username, "Changing inappropriate usernames". Accurizer 21:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, someone reported a username that was Mediacorpinc or something like that. --<b style="color:#006633;">Deenoe</b> 21:44, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

blatantvandal
I've seen a lot of people leaving a single bv on a talk page and treating it as the final warning. I can see that this would be a correct response in some situations, but giving only one warning for all instances seems a bit harsh. Personally, I'll start with test1 for most cases, or test2 for obvious vandalism, and continue to rewarn as necessary. In my opinion, a single bv seems insufficient. Isopropyl 02:48, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * To report, it is needed a test4 or a bv tag. I believe I have used the blatant tag only two or three times, most times preferring to use the test ones. However, the tag exists, and we don't all have the same definition of "test". -- ReyBrujo 03:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * certainly has its uses, I've used it in place of a block that would have been warranted as disruption withough warning, then watched the contribs. About half those times the next edit ends up being vandalism/personal attack/etc, resulting in a block anyway.  It is certainly not for use in all situations though. —  xaosflux  <sup style="color:#00FF00;">Talk  03:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Of all our misused tags, BV is probably the most misused, albeit for the noblest of reasons: it seems most often used by new users just discovering vandalhunting and thus fired up about the subject, or by new and established users when an article on their watchlist has been hit (especially if they created or greatly expanded that article). I've always been reluctant to use it as the vast, vast majority of vandalism is actually people testing, even if they test by adding "OMG! IVE HACKKD WICKEDPEDIO! JIM IS GAY!".
 * Honestly, we should be more easy going about testing - the wiki idea is a startling and strange one to most new users and the very idea of opening a page, changing it and saving it just sounds mentalist to most of them. BV really only applies to vandals who are plainly editing with knowledge of Wikipedia already (eg sockmeat) or have no hope of redemption - and the latter category should be judged very conservatively because the consequences of being wrong are profound.
 * Nevertheless, when correctly used, BV is very effective - either the vandal stops or is blocked. Easy. But, right or wrong, we don't have a zero-tolerance policy to simple vandalism because it would hoover up too many non-vandals who will be the next generation of editors. In that, xaosflux is right to be cautious of the use of it and Isopropyl and ReyBrujo are both right to remind us that we damage a very useful tool by over-using it. ➨  ЯEDVERS  22:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I tend to use BV frequently for a vandal who has vandalized a number of articles, but who was not caught or warned while they were still likely online. Example, I'll be checking my watchlist with VP and find some vandalism that occurred hours prior.  Before clicking on Rollback, I'll check their contribs and see that they edited a number of articles and are still on "top" of each.  I'll revert all of them and then leave them a BV.  I also like to use it for "sneaky vandals", who purposely change facts in articles (more than twice), especially numbers, which are often not noticed by other people.  Finally, I will occasionally use a BV, in cases of strong sexual vandalism or some "Colbert" vandalism, but usually if they have already received at least one test prior to that. --After Midnight 0001 01:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not an admin but I keep a lookout for vandalism, and I use BV first either for vandalism-only accts that have had a bunch of vandalism edits within a short period of time without being warned, and for aggressive blanking/vandalism. Just because it's obvious vandalism doesn't mean I BV, but things like blanking with 'Die, Wikipedia f***tards, I'M CUMMING TO YOUR HOUSE' etc get a BV from me. I used to use BV more when I started, mostly because I didn't know any of the other tags, lol. Also because of the rule about not blocking without a BV warning. Anchoress 10:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Also not an admin, my personal philosophy (I try to stick by - sometimes when doing mass rv I jump too soon) is that BV should be used for - well, blatant vandalism. Something that is long and thought out.  Simply adding 'Woooo, I can edit here?!' should get a test.  This got a BV - it would have taken the person who did it time and effort to change that much that carefully, and could not have been done with good faith.  It's a very useful tag, and in the example above allowed that user to be blocked with rapidity when they continued.  --Mnem e son 10:27, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. When a vandalism was done in 3.2 seconds, shoot a test. But when it's been carefully put out, and really thinked... and REALLY intentional in bad faith, BV. I personally give a pretty decent number of BV's because for me... blatant vandal is for recurrent vandals and obvious vandalism (like : Terry Dick has, obviously, a big dick). Tests tags are really for TESTS. Especially T1, T2... --<b style="color:#006633;">Deenoe</b> 11:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

HELP
Okay so can someone please help me out here. I am being harrassed by TV Newser. After a long discussion tonight with a fellow wikipedian, I decided to remove a link section that i posted. This person has now accused me of being a vandal and keeps putting that stupid sockpuppet thing on my user page. The page in question is Trading card. He is calling me Scott and instead of going to the talk page to work it out he's just editing everything. I think there is a limit to the number of reverts and i'm sure we're both in violation. Can someone help me out.
 * The above was placed by who is showing a lot of the signs of the User:Spotteddogsdotorg sock ring. TV Newser Tipline 10:06, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Leave ma alone TV Newser, i'm not doing anything other than removing content section I ALREADY GOT YELLED AT FOR!!!!!!!Tecmobowl 10:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I would recommend taking this to WP:AN or WP:AN/I. It's not really appropriate here. --Woohookitty(meow) 11:31, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Page is hard to understand...
Can we re-do the hidden text and such? It's really tough to figure out exactly where your report belongs and how you should format it. --172.194.17.163 03:49, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's that difficult. We have 2 sections. Bot reported and user reported. It goes under user reported. As for the format, good rule of thumb on Wikipedia is to try to edit the page and then see how others format the entries. Or you can go through the history. I think the instructions are pretty clear anyway. --Woohookitty(meow) 03:56, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh snap. I just realized that when you click the User Alerts deal, it's much better explained-for some reason I kept clicking 'alerts' and got caught up in all the Bot stuff below it.--172.194.17.163 03:58, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The User/IP change helped a bit, thanks. --172.194.17.163 04:00, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, this change makes things more confusing. We humans are supposed to report malfunctioning bots and vandalbots under "User reported", not "Bot reported". The Tawkerbot2 clones and the original get to report on the "Bot reported" section. Jesse Viviano 03:15, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the problem when it just says "User" is that it makes it sound like IPs cannot report vandalism, which is incorrect. --Woohookitty(meow) 10:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

after the final warning
It seems that sometime the after the final warning it is taken in a bureaucratic manner. I reported a vandal (with blatant-test3-test4). In a third vandalism wave (after 30 min), I reported here the vandal, but nearly in the same time a BOT noticed some other vandalism and noticed the user. How to compete to BOT for "final warning"? I think you should ignore bot warning. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cate (talk • contribs) 17:17, 10 October 2006 (UTC).


 * As long as there has been *a* final warning (final meaning blatantvandal, test3 or 4, not final as in last) within the last several hours, and the user/IP vandalised after that, it can be reported here. TransUtopian 17:22, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Oops, I forgot to sign. Anyway: example reports "2 no edits since last warning". There was 4 edits (vandalism) after final (non-bot) warning and a very final BOT-warning. Cate 17:36, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, it was the other two IPs that Steel359 didn't block. He blocked the one you reported.


 * There was one vandal edit after the final warning for the IP reported below yours. Given that it was only one minute after that warning and the IP hadn't edited in the ~12 minutes after that, I assume Steel interpreted that as the person heeding the warning.


 * The IP below that vandalised after test3 but not test4, both considered "final" warnings, so note that interpretation if you give both warnings. TransUtopian 15:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Archiving warnings
The user Dragonball1986 archived warnings he received today. Is that allowed?--Vercalos 19:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Ugh, consensus on this issue has not been reached and it seems like I come across this issue three or four times a day. I'm normally in favor of letting users do what they want with their talk pages, but moving only the warnings and calling it "An Archive of Misinterpretations" seems ... not ... good.  (I also hate fake new message boxes, but that's neither here nor there.)  I'll talk to him about how he needs to archive chronologically, not by category.  -- Merope Talk 19:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that warnings older than, say, a day, ought to be archivable. As long as they're present chronologically in an archive for easy review, warnings older than a day mean much less than the block logs. TransUtopian 19:38, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, it wasn't an older warning. It was less than 3 hours old.--Vercalos 19:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * And if the user makes a habit of selectively archiving warnings and -- I ran into this a while ago -- outright refusing to put a link to the archive on his talk page, then the archiving process becomes defacto a way of scrubbing legitimate warnings. -- Jim Douglas <sup style="color:green;">(talk) <sub style="color:gray;">(contribs)  19:44, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * He had a link to the archive, but it was under a misleading name, that implied he was simply the victim of misunderstanding. He has renamed it to a literal explanation of what it was, though, since Merope talked to him...  And I must agree, the fake new message template annoys me too.--Vercalos 19:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup, the incident I mentioned was a bit different. The user made a nonsense edit.  The edit was reverted & he was warned.  He promptly deleted the warning, so I reverted the deletion & sent him a new warning to not remove talk page warnings.  He did some quick reading about archiving and selectively archived all warnings and other critical comments -- but neglected to add a link to the archive page, effectively hiding it.  I advised him that this was contrary to the spirit of the rules, and he demonstrated a masterful command of wikilawyering, demanding that I point out specifically where in the rules it said he had to maintain a permanent link.  At that point, I decided I had better things to do with my life, so I dropped it in frustration. -- Jim Douglas <sup style="color:green;">(talk)  <sub style="color:gray;">(contribs)  19:57, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * (Edit conflict from 2 edits ago) Warnings less than a day old are generally still actionable/relevant, meaning that admins will take them into account when reviewing whether and for how long to block. Also, the warning that Vercalos mentions is also part of a discussion barely a couple hours old. Selectively archiving warnings should be disallowed. All or none to avoid misrepresenting the history. And of course it must be prominently, umambiguously linked from the main talk page to be considered an archive. TransUtopian 19:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally I'm fine with anyone archiving warning after about a week, if they are otherwise a legitimate editor, and practice a standard archiving solution. If they are not a legitimate editor or a shared ip editor, then leave them up. —  xaosflux  <sup style="color:#00FF00;">Talk  00:18, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Seems to me that if they archived it under the label "Warnings" it should be OK. --WikiSlasher 07:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm of the opinion that users should be permitted to archive or even delete anything on their talk page. If they are archiving or deleting they've obviously read the warning.  I would use verbose edit summaries to make sure the warning stays in their history.  Just my 2 cents.  L0b0t 19:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you to the admins
Big thank you to the admins who regularly clean out this stuff. I'm sure you mostly get grief for doing this, so on behalf of the usually silent majority, Dweller says "ta". --Dweller 19:29, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I thank admins working on XfD, because I'm much rather spend my time here then there. :) The whole process is called community dynamics... NCurse work 19:41, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Where do we report spammers for blocking?
Is this the place to get persistent spammers blocked after their last warning (warned with ) or do I take it to WP:ANI? Thanks, --A. B. 19:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You can take them here. Basically, any persistent infractions of these types of vandalism go here.  -- <font color="#006699">Merope  19:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. --A. B. 19:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Question and help needed

 * I just put blatantvandal on User talk:Mtwolf because of this: |vandalism. The user quickly deleted the bv template  from his/her talk page. I'd also like to prod the associated image. Some guidance would be sincerely appreciated:
 * Did I choose the correct template?
 * What if anything do I do when people delete it from their user page?
 * How do I prod an image?
 * Thanks--Ling.Nut 22:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't worry just add wr and replace the warning. Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 23:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

New admin- would like to help here
I thought I'd take a stab helping here, and I went through some of the current requests just now, but didn't block anyone because it seemed to me that the user either gave a level4 right out of the gate and/or the vandal hadn't edited again after last warning. Was I right not to block? And if that's the case, do I just remove the report so other admins don't waste their time? Thanks a bunch! --plange 02:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * In some cases, a test4 is warranted; it depends on the type of vandalism. If in your judgment, it wasn't severe enough, then there's no problem. Also, not blocking a vandal after he/she stopped vandalizing is perfectly ok; the purpose of warnings isn't to cover your ass when blocking, but rather to make the vandal stop. If the vandal stops, and you didn't have to block, then mission accomplished. Tito xd (?!?) 02:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * So, in the cases where blocking isn't warranted, do we remove the request from this page? --plange 03:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yup. Alphachimp 03:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It depends. If the vandal stopped 20 hours ago, yes; if the vandal hasn't vandalized in 5 minutes, leave it there. There's no general rule for delisting AFAIK, but usually two hours would suffice. If an editor hasn't been warned, though, just delist it outright. Tito xd (?!?) 03:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What Tito said. And please do remove the reports you find don't warrant blocking. You can say something along "list agin if vandalism resumes" (or whatever is appropriate) in the edit summary so the reporting user won't be afraid to relist the same IP later. If you are really in doubt about whether to block or not, just leave that report listed and let someone else handle it. At least that's what I do ;-). "If in doubt, don't block", is a good rule of thumb. Shanes 03:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Makes sense-- I guess I was just thinking about the sequence as I thought they weren't supposed to be listed here to begin with if they hadn't vandalized at all after a test4 was given. I saw a case here where an editor gave a test4 and then reported them even though they didn't vandalize again after the test4.... sorry for all the questions, just don't want to mess up right out of the gate with my new admin status :-) --plange 03:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No need to reply-- above was written before Shanes reply (edit conflict) --plange 03:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Have we gone soft?
User talk:72.65.235.239 - I've recommended this user three times for a block. The latter two times reasons were given, "hasn't vandalized in two days" and most recently "hasn't vandalized in 30 minutes". How is not vandalizing in 30 minutes a valid reason not to block a user? All the user seems to be doing is taking a short break after being warned and then going right back to vandalism again. This account has virtually no useful contributions other that blatant anti-drug and alcohol vandalism. Is our stance now to keep slapping users with warnings and letting them continue to create more work for others, rather than blocking them outright? --Liface 17:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you serious? Yesterday, I managed to report this guy, and he had not edited for six hours prior to my report (this may not be relevent, but he was a sock of another user). I would suggest asking the admin who gave you that response why he said that. —Whomp <font size="-2">t/c 23:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll just relist it again if the account shows more vandalism and hope another admin handles the case. --Liface 03:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand the reasoning behind the IP I reported. If a person vandalizes repeatedly, and its clear from their edit history, we look the other way so long as they haven't done it in a while? If only the police worked that way. --Bobak 00:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * We're not the police. You're under arrest for the comparison... --Lord Deskana (talk) 00:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * LOL... as a quick sidenote, Musical Linguist was kind enough to explain some of the inner workings of the administrator action cabal ;-) --Bobak 14:45, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * From WP:BLOCK "Admins are never obliged to place a block", "Blocks are preventive rather than punitive measures used to prevent damage to Wikipedia..." If an IP (which maybe dynamically assigned) isn't currently (recently) vandalising then a block is not preventing any damage, if it is dynamic or shared and someone else is impacted it is arguably doing damage. --pgk( talk ) 19:05, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * This is an ongoing problem. Many of the admins in the anti-vandal cabal are slow, to be polite, in blocking a user. That's one reason I rarely report anyone anymore. It often seems futile.  Rlevse 19:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * You must not run into me very much. ;) Syrthiss 19:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe you should issue a new standard for blocking...? --KojiDude (talk) 19:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm new in this topic, but I personally would recommend two standard approaches: My two cent, JKW 19:59, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Nothing is wrong with being slow, but it is awful being sloppy or not consequent in blocking.
 * I recomended today a user IP for being blocked, which had a last warning message from January. I am in principle fine with the policy that users are not blocked after they have not edited for a while, but this should be pretty clear to them, too. So, I would like to see an additional short not-blocked-because-time-bonus-note on those user pages.
 * For your second point, how do you know it was the same person? An IP can be reallocated and reallocated. --pgk( talk ) 20:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That is PRECISELY why ACCOUNTS SHOULD BE REQUIRED on wiki. And as for the time delay, I've seen admins fail to block when they revandalize after a blatant or test4 was issued a mere 5 minutes previously. No wonder there are so many vandals on wiki.Rlevse 03:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well requiring accounts has been discussed numerous times and downside deemed to outweigh the upside. Many anons aren't vandals, someone reading might see a typo (say) and fix it, have to go through account creation etc. and they quite likely won't bother. Remember the project is about building an encyclopaedia not eliminating vandalism. (The latter of course helps the former but it shouldn't be at the cost of the former.) However that is not something we can decide here, bring it up on WP:VP if you want to drag that up again. I was responding to an instance concerning several months between last warning and vandalism. Did you ask the admin to clarify why they didn't feel a block was necessary when someone got warned with test4 and then carried on vandalising within 5 minutes of getting that warning? --pgk( talk ) 09:54, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I still think that at least shared IPs should be prevented from editing without accounts.--<font color="Green">Conrad Devonshire <font color="Purple">Talk  06:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The real problem is that we still don't have a "users from this IP address must be registered" capability in the software. There are many occasions when the collateral damage from an IP block is such that it's not feasible.  This is an ongoing problem with AOL, and an intermittent problem with educational institutions.  If we had a "block anons only" option, blocking would be easier on everyone.  It's been discussed, but not implemented. --John Nagle 07:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * In that case, you may wish to comment on a proposal I have drawn up, which will allow bureaucrats to flag shared IPs. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 08:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

“We really, really do mean it this time, just you watch out, I’m warning you” template?
If we give "last warnings" after stepping through the sequence, what happens when we report more vandalism at WP:AIV and it's not blocked -- what warning do we use then? "We were just kidding yesterday but we really are serious now?"

Multiple times, I've given the appropriate warnings in accordance with the "grid". Then after those don't work, I've carefully checked off the latest incident against the instructions at WP:AIV:
 * "Editors: Before listing a vandal here make sure that:"
 * √ "The vandal has been warned with the appropriate warning templates. If you can't justify leaving these messages on a user's talk page, it likely isn't vandalism."
 * √ "Users must be appropriately warned using a final warning template, such as,  or  before being listed on this page. Users without appropriate final warnings will not be blocked."
 * √ "The vandal vandalized within the last few hours and after the final warning."
 * ''"Do not list here if:"
 * √ "The incident is not vandalism but a content dispute."
 * √ "They have not vandalized very recently (past 24 hours), nor since the last warning ( or ) ."
 * √ "The vandal has not received the full range of test warnings recently (i.e., within the previous week)."
 * √ "The recent vandalism from an IP began hours (or days) after the last warning — it could be a different person."

After doing this, I report the vandal. A little while later the entry is cleared without a block or any intelligible explanation from the WP:AIV list ("list not MT" or "List MT", while important for admins, don't tell the rest of us anything useful). Vandalism reports that don't end in blocks waste admins' time and and can discourage the reporting editors. Even when the right decision is to decline to block, 5 to 10 words of feedback may help reduce inappropriate reports in the future and cut time wasted by admins.

Those cases where an admin does not follow the published blocking criteria and declines to block raises the questions, "Just how many 'last warnings' can you rack up before someone actually blocks you?" and " Can you beat your classmate's record for this sort of thing?" Reduced Wikipedia credibility just encourages more of this stuff.

I know I can always make a "federal case" out of protesting individual WP:AIV decisions, but that wastes time and ruffles feathers. To me, the whole WP:AIV process is about:
 * Upholding Wikipedia's reliability as a source of information for its readers. Someone with thyroid cancer does not need the section on surgery replaced with "Joey has a little wiener".
 * Reducing volunteers' time wasted on cleaning grafitti and protecting theirs and others' work.
 * Maintaining a civil environment in which volunteer editors work motivated primarily by the reward of helping produce something enormously useful.

So here are some small suggestions and observations from a rank-and-file Wikipedian: For every admin, there are 10 to 20 other busy, repeat editors beavering away on Wikipedia so we very much appreciate any help you can give us on this. Thanks, --A. B. 17:10, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Consider using informative edit summaries to let others (including the reporting editor) know why you're not blocking someone. The feedback will be useful. (Besides, we're all supposed to use informative summaries anyway, aren't we?)
 * Follow the published check-off criteria on the WP:AIV page. If they're too strict, then change them. In the meantime, not following the published criteria discourages editors from reporting and correcting vandalism. Furthermore, reports that don't end in blocks will have wasted your time as well dealing with them.
 * If you choose for some reason not to block a vandal who does meets the criteria, go ahead and at least warn them so that they do get some sort of warning (and it's on the record for other admins that, once again, they've damaged an article).
 * I can understand why AOL IP addresses might be problematic, but other shared IP addresses (for instance, schools) -- so what if they lose editing privilege for a few days, weeks or months? Not blocking them just prolongs the problem and makes more work for the cleaner-uppers. Blocking them might even draw some useful adult attention to the problem. Besides -- you're not blocking kids from reading Wikipedia -- just altering it.
 * I have seen shared ips (and individual ips, for that matter) blocked for one month after a lot of vandalism. I guess I could say it is our fault for not reporting shared IPs with a huge background of vandalism to WP:ABUSE. -- ReyBrujo 17:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * New warnings are only seen by the user when they finally load another Wiki page (and even then, only if they take the hint of the big orange "NEW TALK" banner). Because of this, I know that users will occasionally be allowed a brief "grace period" after their "final warning". If there's only one more incident of vandalism and then no vandalism up to the moment that an admin finally reads about it in WP:AIV, it's possible that the final warning actually worked and there's no need to block the user, at least, not this time.


 * Remember, blocks are not meant to be punitive, but rather protective of the encyclopedia.


 * Atlant 17:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * If this is the case, I suggest spelling out these informal policies for editors on the WP:AIV page so they better understand what will and won't happen. As for grace periods, I can see your point about vandals at the, , and levels but do we really owe them much grace beyond that? I'd rather save any grace we have for the folks that clean up after them.


 * As for punitive vs. preventive, I think those two concepts are closely intertwined. Once an anonymous user gets past, they don't seem to be impressed by further warnings from what I can tell. (On the other hand, established members of the community warned for misbehavior do seem to often care about higher level warnings -- but not the anons.)


 * Meanwhile, for what it's worth, neither punished nor prevented, the two anonymous vandals I futilely reported earlier this week have been at it since occasionally since. I started to report them once again but wrote the above note instead. They're not really doing any big damage so far. --A. B. 17:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I've only had my mop for a week, but my biggest surprise was that vandals often do stop after a test4. Whether that's because the warning scares them into compliance or because their ADD makes them lose interest after a while is a separate question. --Ginkgo100 talk · e@ 02:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I have few AIV reports because I take my time to warn the user from test1 to test4, sometimes repeating test2 or test3 if I consider there could have been a mid-air collision between his vandalism and my warning. Since Firefox remembers what I have written in my edit summary box, I can say I have 38 test1, 10 test2, 6 test3, 6 test4 and 3 blatant. Spammers are the ones that don't learn. Once they notice they have been caught, they will spam as fast as possible until blocked, contrary to vandals who do this to get some fun. However, abusing the serious tag is not good. Just yesterday I suggested James086 in his peer review to not use the blatant tag in every revert he did. -- ReyBrujo 03:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This is an interesting observation, but do we owe a higher responsibility vandals or to Wikipedia's readers? We also have to consider all the volunteer-editors busy cleaning up in the meantime as we try to help vandals see the error of their ways. I think the priorities should be on:
 * First and foremost, Wikipedia's reliability and readability for readers outside the community
 * Conserving volunteers' time for more useful and rewarding tasks than erasing graffiti.
 * --A. B. 19:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC) (exasperated volunteer)
 * I personally always try to leave a message why I am refusing a block. The most common reason is that the vandal has stopped.  Many (if not most) vandal IPs are shared or dynamic, and there is usually no point in giving someone who has already stopped an hour ago a 24hour block.--Konst.ableTalk 23:10, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Obviously personalities and block lengths vary between admins. It's very difficult for us to leave a descriptive edit summary, particularly with vandalism in progress. A lot of times, we do leave borderline reports on for further investingation. I turn down very few AIV reports and will block educational IPs with the same long time frames as regular IPs, often until the next academic year. Alphachimp 01:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Gee, that seems way too long. I would figure that blocking an educational IP shuts down the ability of any student at that school to contribute to Wikipedia.  This seems like using a sledgehammer to kill an ant.


 * Thus, I would think that the preventive nature of a block should shut down the IP long enough to stop the vandal from doing further vandalism (I figure 2-4 hours which will be enough to block until the end of the school day). If the vandal comes back the next day, then maybe block for 24 hours and if that doesn't work, then block for a week.  Blocking until the end of the school year means that students can only read but not edit until the following year.  To be willing to do this, you have to believe that students are far more likely to be vandals than valuable contributors.  I don't think this attitude is in keeping with Wikipedia's philosophy towards anonymous editing.


 * --Richard 21:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * While I'm not particularly sure on the issue of how long to block school IPs, I'd just like to add my own observations. I've seen several school IPs (90-95% of high schools / elementary schools and equivalents) whose contribs consisted purely of vandalism. Occasionally it's pretty intensive too. You even get conversations and insults between students going. Warning a school-based vandal almost never works, and the chance that the school will do anything about it seems to be close to nil. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 21:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I really do understand your point, and I considered it quite a bit when I was first blocking schools. You have to realize, though, that many of these grade schools (we are talking mostly about children age 6-12) have little->no good contributions. They come back to vandalize every day, during the middle of the day (EST), when many sysops are at work. AIV is constantly backlogged, and the vandalism never shows any signs of stopping. Much of it slips through the cracks to be discovered later on during the day, or, worse, through a PR nightmare. Blocking these IPs for long time frames shields us from damage and makes an extremely clear point that their vandalism will not be tolerated. Editors who have already established themselves within the community (e.g. they have a username they made at home) are not affected, as these blocks only influence anonymous users. Further, I see these blocks as promoting education. Children can view Wikipedia, but they are freed from a potential distraction from their classwork. Alphachimp 21:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I have also seen this kind of behavior and I agree that the school will probably not do anything about it. On the other hand, I have seen good work done by high school students who work as anonymous IPs and even one who has been nailed by collateral damage from autoblocks (User:Hildanknight).  One important thing is to put a welcome message on the anon's talk page which both welcomes and warns against future vandalism.  I would hope that the welcome might encourage some users to create accounts and thus be able to contribute without being affected by the block on the IP address.  I would still argue for a series of blocks that gradually increase in length rather than going immediately for a "until the end of the school year" block.


 * --Richard 21:27, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course. Sorry if I wasn't perfectly clear about that. My usual block pattern is 24h, 48h, 1 week, 2 weeks-1 month, 3-6 months, next schoolyear. As soon as I find out it's a school, I make the blocks Anons Only, and I usually leave a message whereby the school can contact me if the block is an issue. Alphachimp 21:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Haven't really read, but the title and the first few lines are hilarious, because they're true. Warnings are always : This is your last warning.. Ok boy, STOP IT! OK MAN! FINAL!!!... Okay maybe not, but this time I'm not screwing around!!! We have to do something about this, cause right now its a big bla bla bla. --<b style="color:#006633;">Deenoe</b> 23:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree. If I wanted to vandalize, I could probably get away with it for a while by gaming the system (i.e. going right up to the 4th warning and then backing off for a few days to a week and then coming back a week later for up to 4 warnings again.  Fortunately, most of the students get their ha-has by vandalizing and don't actually learn enough about Wikipedia to know how to game the system in this way.


 * Unfortunately, if time has elapsed, it's not always obvious if the vandalizer is the same person or a new one using the same IP. So, we're stuck giving him/her the benefit of the doubt and going through the 4 warnings again.


 * --Richard 23:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the issue is with the admins on the Administrator intervention against vandalism page. Either they are outnumbered and overworked, or some of them are just being careless, such as the times they empty the list with "blocked" in the edit summary, and the user's don't get blocked. This is extremely frustrating when you have reported a user who's entire talk page is nothing but warnings, who has been vandalising for months, and still hasn't been blocked. It would save everyone a lot of time if each case were looked at carefully before being discarded. Most of the time one can tell if an ip address has been responsible for a string of vandalisms, as these are usually related somehow.Sfacets 23:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I ran into the "All blocked, list empty"/but-not-really-empty situation today which very much surprised me. I left a note for the admin. --A. B. 03:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I've never done that, but I'm sure it happens from time to time. I think a lot of sysops are annoyed when users bring their content disputes to this page. Sockpuppets (which tend to require investigation) can also be irritating. We need to clarify the purpose of this page...namely...to stop obvious, persistent, current vandalism with a quick block. Alphachimp 01:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll speak to this issue. Right now, it's fairly difficult to simultaneously maintain (keep synchronized) the actiual blocks, the messages on the users's talk pages, and the contents of WP:AIV. A computer database guy would say that there's no way to do a proper "two-phase commit" on these pages. So you find that often, multiple admins are working on the same stuff, leading to the admins finding someone they're about to block being already blocked, etc. We really need to improve the way we manage this stuff so that we can avoid exactly these sorts of errors attributable to "updating the databases".


 * Atlant 14:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * A simple protocol would reduce an awful lot of duplication of effort. Before handling a case, simply mark it as "in-progress". The edit conflict system would thus ensure that no two admins were simultaneously working on the same case.


 * There would be slightly more work involved, but I suspect that the reduction in wasted effort due to two admins trying to handle the same complaint would more than counterbalance this.


 * Comments? Jakew 14:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, this is exactly the right sort of idea, at least until someone makes some magic modifications to the Wikimedia software to directly support one-button blocking/notifying/WP:AIV-editing.


 * Atlant 16:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm. I wonder whether others agree? I'm going to copy this to a new section below so that it can be found more easily. Jakew 16:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Disallow editing by anons

 * I think a lot of this could be fixed by requiring editors to have an account and no longer allowing editing by anon. IP addys. L0b0t 01:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I totally agree. --<b style="color:#006633;">Deenoe</b> 01:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, although I sympathize with the sentiment, I disagree and this would take the discussion in a totally different direction and one that does not belong here. I fully understand the desire to stop vandalism by anon users but it is a strong component of Wikipedia philosophy to encourage contributions from anonymous users and many valuable contributions have come from anonymous users. --Richard 01:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Note, for example, User:69.145.123.171. Snoutwood (talk) 01:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * He's an exception. :p <font face="Lucida Grande">Pacific Coast Highway {blah • Happy Halloween! • WP:NYCS} 01:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Especially when they alert us to thier friends sexual prefrences. <font face="Lucida Grande">Pacific Coast Highway {blah • Happy Halloween! • WP:NYCS} 01:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that would be to radical. However keeping anonymous users on a shorter leash (ie stricter vandalism policy) could be a good idea. After all, if someone has the time to edit scores of documents, why can't he/she take the time to fill out the 20 second registration process, or even shorter sign in process? Sfacets 02:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the question as to whether Wikipedia allows edits from anonymous IP addresses is beyond the scope of this particular thread/section -- maybe start a new section below this one to that question? --A. B. 02:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Banning edits from anon IPs is completley against WP:AGF. We should assume that anons come here with good intentions. Why keep thousands of people from editting, destroy our motto, and break one of our sacred policies just to lower vandalism levels?-- Koji Dude  (Contributions) 02:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * One could argue that no one is banning them from editing, all they have to do is sign up. Sfacets 03:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * There is nearly continual discussion about this in and around Wikipedia, you might take it to WP:VP (Village Pump) but I'm not sure how far you will get. It's one of those perennials. It would take a real sea change for that to happen and I don't see it happening anytime soon. Rx StrangeLove 03:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It IS a perennial.
 * Moreover, it is so much a fundamental part of Wikipedia that it has recently been cited as one of the principles of an ArbCom case . This is the principle...
 * 12.1.10 Many edit anonymously
 * For a variety of reasons, a majority of Wikipedians, including many administrators, edit anonymously. It is believed the opportunity to edit anonymously increases participation.
 * Ignore the above text. Hildanknight is right in his comment below.  I misinterpreted what was meant in an ArbCom case|the ArbCom case by "edit anonymously".  A clear case of preconceived notion ruling over actual reading and understanding.  Sorry.
 * --Richard 04:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

This has been discussed in many, many places across Wikipedia and strongly rejected every time.--Konst.ableTalk 04:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Then if anon-editing is cast in stone and not really subject to discussion, perhaps there also needs to be a shorter fuse for blocking vandalistic anons -- that is if Wikipedia's to keep its volunteers and readers. --A. B. 05:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, I can agree to that. I personally think 4 warnings is way too many.  I would go for two warnings: three strikes and you're out for a short block.  Each subsequent vandalism within a short period of time (24 hours) and the number of warning is dropped by one.  That is, after a block, one warning is all you get.  After a second block, you get no warnings, just an immediate block.
 * I wouldn't go for a whole 'nother round of four warnings each time around. That's just wasting everybody's time.
 * --Richard 07:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I think Richard has misread the statement he quoted from the arbitration case. (Note that I've corrected the capitalization of the link he provided - I don't know if it's OK to edit others' comments that way.)

In 12.1.9 of the arbitration case, it is stated:

Users, including administrators, may choose whether to disclose their real-world identities on Wikipedia or to edit anonymously.

On Wikipedia, editing "anonymously" has two meanings. The first meaning is "editing without being logged into an account". The second meaning is "editing without disclosing personal information". The usage of the word "anonymously" in 12.1.9 refers to the second meaning, and it is reasonable to expect that the usage in 12.1.10 also refers to the second meaning. However, Richard thought that the usage in 12.1.10 referred to the first meaning.

--J.L.W.S. The Special One 06:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Examples of "last-warning/extra-last-warning/we-really-mean-it-this-time/don't-make-me-do-it" pages

 * Here are some good "last-warning/extra-last-warning/we-really-mean-it-this-time/don't-make-me-do-it" pages:
 * User talk:204.9.123.251 (block requested today but not imposed)
 * later blocked one month -- thanks Ginkgo100!
 * User talk:207.157.146.66 (last block was Sept. 11 - block requested again today but not imposed)
 * User talk:206.245.186.213 (never been blocked -- 17 warnings in last year -- block requested again today but not imposed -- over 150 edits; I'll bet they've kept people busy!)
 * User talk:69.205.0.91 (3 last warnings -- block requested today but not imposed)
 * --A. B. 03:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * User talk: 210.18.215.131 -- last blocked Sept 15 -- block requested 26 October but declined

Thing is... I've checked two of the IPs, they belong to schools... --<b style="color:#006633;">Deenoe</b> 11:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't understand -- I've seen blocks applied against schools before. Why accept vandalism from schools? I understand this may becoming from shared computers, but do we have an obligation to allow edits from these computers? Peruse the contributions from those accounts and see just how much they've really added to Wikipedia -- and how much they've taken away. Consided how much time has been wasted by volunteers (and former volunteers) cleaning this stuff up. Consider the effect on Wikipedia's readers of vandalism and blanking that doesn't get caught right away. Why put up with this stuff?


 * Should we stop warning these accounts with "You will be blocked" -- by this schools-are-sacred logic, we're threatening an outcome that's not supposed to happen.


 * How often do school administrators complain about IP blocks? The Foundation gets all sorts of complaints and threats every day in the mail but I'll bet school administrator complaints don't constitute a busy category. In fact, to the extent any are aware their schools IP addresses are getting blocked, they're probably glad of it.


 * Finally, when prolific editors quit, ongoing, ineffectively policed vandalism is among the reasons they cite.


 * --A. B. 13:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Correction: I found a school that actually was quite vocal in complaining, the University of Westminster. See . Admins tried blocking this address for chronic vandalism in March 2006 but backed down after complaints by the school. The school even put its own "You better watch out -- we will track down vandals internally" on the talk page -- but the vandalism continued. A great collect of "last warnings" since then. --A. B. 14:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * There are actually a few that do. And actually, one of the school accounts in the UK was shut down due to an admin who is also an admin at the school. I forget which one. I don't see what you are proposing happening. Wikipedia tends to assume good faith and blocking schools because 90% of the users perform vandalism would be assuming bad faith and I just don't see it happening anytime soon. --Woohookitty(meow) 14:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Assume good faith does not require consistently giving a pass. Here's the language straight out of the official policy:
 * This policy does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary. Actions inconsistent with good faith include vandalism, confirmed malicious sockpuppetry, and lying. Assuming good faith also does not mean that no action by editors should be criticized, but instead that criticism should not be attributed to malice unless there is specific evidence of malice. Accusing the other side in a conflict of not assuming good faith, without showing reasonable supporting evidence, is another form of failing to assume good faith.
 * The first sentence is bold in the actual policy as well. --A. B. 14:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * How about no temporary blocks for IP addys. If you abuse from an IP address the block is permanent, if you want to start an account you will be welcome to do so. As for schools, who cares if they complain, the problem is on their end not ours.  Again signing up for an account makes this whole problem go away. L0b0t 14:18, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Good God no. -- Steel 14:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No way. Sometimes multiple people use the same computer. Even my own brother (who, granted, doesn't live with me) once confessed to vandalizing Wikipedia as a "test" to see what the response would be. I would hate for my IP to be indef blocked for that. Some people's IPs change every time they connect to the Internet, and we wouldn't want them to inherit a blocked IP. Also, for technical reasons this would either prevent account creation or be ineffective because vandals could create accounts to get around the block. --Ginkgo100 talk · e@ 19:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Major Vandals need to be stopped right away. The rest of us shouldn't have to waste our time on them. Warn them with a 4, blatant, etc and block their them. They're not worth any more time. Wiki is too lenient with these "users". Rlevse 16:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That's the point, one would be forced to craete an account if one wanted to continue vandalizing, thus making that much more wore for the vandal. This would, I think, cut down on the bulk of the nuisance edits.  The idea is to get people to create accounts, get them inculcated into the wiki way, and grow them into productive members of the community.  I love Wikipedia but I do feel that anon. IP editing will be its downfall.  This is why one can't cite Wikipedia articles as a source for papers in many schools.  As far as other people using the same computer, they can sign up for an account as well.  None of this prevents anyone from reading the encyclopedia, just from vandalizing it. L0b0t 16:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Design contest for best new template

 * Hey -- how about a design contest for the best new template in the category of "this is your last warning and I really mean it so please, please stop, OK?"


 * Heck, I'd even chip in $2 via PayPal to the winner -- and a Barnstar!
 * --A. B. 03:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Stop vandalizing, or I will shoot you.


 * -- Koji Dude  (Contributions) 03:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice start -- it's what I'd use if I could, but I was thinking more along the lines of something a little whiny that would reflect what actually happens. Keep at it, however, there's a shiny new barnstar out there for someone! Here's a place to submit your entries: User:A. B./New warnings I'd like to see


 * Added my "warning" to your page. --<b style="color:#006633;">Deenoe</b> 11:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, the enthusiasm of a new vandalhunter. Thanks for the idea, but the failure of WP:AGF is so huge, so project-destroyingly-massive, as to be unworkable. How do these templates work for users wrongly accused (since they turn a warning into an accusation of malice)? How do they work for over-enthusiastic new vandalhunters using them against established users? What do we do when an established user, confronted by such a tag, blocks the tagger for a week for personal attacks? Some of our greatest editors made simple mistakes in their first few edits. What would we now do without them? How do these templates fit in with WP:BITE? Lots of questions... answers? ➨  ЯEDVERS  20:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * ЯEDVERS, maybe we'll just have to ditch WP:BITE and use WP:EATME for some of these people ...
 * If you look at the page linked above, it's pretty much a joke contest now. Might we just chalk this up to one of those rare times where the opportunity for mindless amusement arises in the midst of more serious work? -- Omicronpersei8 (talk) 22:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Joke?? Joke?? You dare to call this a joke??? --A. B. 23:59, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Anyway, the $2 and the barnstar are real, so keep those entries coming! --A. B. 23:59, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

$2? You'd be surprised what at small amt of cash is as incentive. I know an online ezine that recently started giving out small amounts of money for good writings (e.g., $20 for a good dozen pages of very good work) - the quality skyrocketed. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 20:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought it was the barnstar ... --A. B. 23:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Anyway, to avoid further degrading this policy discussion page, maybe we can discuss these new templates and their implications further on the cotest page

Proposal to avoid duplication of effort
(copied from section above)

I'll speak to this issue. Right now, it's fairly difficult to simultaneously maintain (keep synchronized) the actiual blocks, the messages on the users's talk pages, and the contents of WP:AIV. A computer database guy would say that there's no way to do a proper "two-phase commit" on these pages. So you find that often, multiple admins are working on the same stuff, leading to the admins finding someone they're about to block being already blocked, etc. We really need to improve the way we manage this stuff so that we can avoid exactly these sorts of errors attributable to "updating the databases".

Atlant 14:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * A simple protocol would reduce an awful lot of duplication of effort. Before handling a case, simply mark it as "in-progress". The edit conflict system would thus ensure that no two admins were simultaneously working on the same case.


 * There would be slightly more work involved, but I suspect that the reduction in wasted effort due to two admins trying to handle the same complaint would more than counterbalance this.


 * Comments? Jakew 14:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, this is exactly the right sort of idea, at least until someone makes some magic modifications to the Wikimedia software to directly support one-button blocking/notifying/WP:AIV-editing.


 * Atlant 16:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Repeated Vandalism
this page is being repeatedly vandalized. i'm really not too good at wikipedia code, and i have bad wrists so i can't really afford to type it all out or spend the time necessary to learn it. if an administrator could lock that page out to new members and unregistered members, it would be much appreciated. i am a member of TFN, and i care about the page. ip address is: there may be other addresses involved as well. Quietmind 00:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)Quietmind
 * Semi-protected, but you ought to request it in the future at WP:RFPP. Alphachimp 04:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

2006 World Series
The 2006 World Series page has been continually vandalized over the past few hours by User:66.79.167.173 among others. The vandalism has consisted usually of blanking out the entire page, and adding in some offensive message to the editor.
 * This talk page is the wrong place for such a request. That said, it's a current event, so we can expect a certain higher level of vandalism. Alphachimp 04:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Clarification/expansion of instructions re "username" issues
Sometimes I see an editor attempt to report a username violation on AN or ANI or elsewhere. I'm not referring to borderline username restrictions that would lead to "please change your name," but obviously unacceptable usernames (obscene, racist, "Wheels," etc.) that are due to be indef blocked on sight. The typical response on AN or ANI is that this sort of thing should be brought here to AIV, but there is nothing on the AIV instructions suggesting that this type of report would be welcome here. I'm not raising this because of some theoretical need for the instructions to be perfect, but because I think editors trying to report a problem may become discouraged if they are told to post a report here and then they find that doing so is inconsistent with the instructions atop the page (since there aren't going to be four warnings, etc.). Thoughts? Newyorkbrad 19:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps another subpage to WP:AN. --Ginkgo100 talk · e@ 19:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:AN/U or Administrators' noticeboard/Usernames Agathoclea 20:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Username block requests are successfully reported here all the time. I see no problem with bringing them to AIV – they are generally no-brainer decisions, after all, that are probably overkill for other places. -- Omicronpersei8 (talk) 05:12, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree the reports belong here. The last thing anyone needs is another noticeboard. My point is that where it's generally agreed that a given type of report belongs here, the instructions at the top of the page might profitably say so. I'm not an admin but if the admins who are regulars on this page agree, I can try drafting a couple of lines to add to the instructions. Newyorkbrad 05:17, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Bot reporting behavior
I was under the impression that the bots were programmed not to report a vandal to the page if the vandal was already listed by Anti-Vandal Bot seems to be doing it. What am I mistaken about? JoshuaZ 01:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Questionable user name
The user name User:Do you like my boobies!has been created, from a prior posting to this board it is my understanding that this should be reported here so it can be blocked. TheRanger 02:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, definitely. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 03:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Another user name User:Kenny44likesmen was just created. I am posting here so that someone can take care of a block. TheRanger 03:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Blocked. In the future, just post on the WP:AIV page. Alphachimp 03:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Editors who add then remove their own vandalism
I've been seeing a lot more of that lately; is there anything that should be done about it? Anchoress 16:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * slap a template:test-self on their talk pages? Borisblue 17:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Great, that's useful, thanks. Anchoress 17:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Be sure to revert it anyway. Sometimes an editor will "correct" only some of his vandalism. Alphachimp 19:12, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Both and  are helpful in these situations; also, Alphachimp is correct: be sure it's a full self-reversion. :) <tt style="color:#161;">RadioKirk (u|t|c) </tt> 20:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Missed tag-team vandalism
It may not happen very often, but on the Balboa Academy page, and an anon user were tag-team vandalising on several occasions, and as a result (Admins reverting only to the most recent username edit), vandalism went unreverted a couple of times (all fixed eventually). Just a heads up. Anchoress 18:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Avoiding duplicate reports
I realize the admins tending this are overwhelmed. But a few times I reported someone because the blocking admin did not leave a "vandal now blocked" message on the vandal's userpage. I now know to check the block log first, but sometimes I forget. I suppose the best method would be to have a process that combines blocking with a template being automatically placed on the user's talk page. But unless and until that can be done, I suggest we: 1. Add "check to see if user is already blocked - here's how you do that" to the "what to do before reporting here" instructions. 2. Remember to, if at all possible, leave the "blocked" notice on the talk page when the block is set. Thanks! --Kathryn NicDhàna 21:12, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * good idea! --WikiSlasher 07:32, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Horeca
User Dillyman has posted nonsense on the page for Horeca, I have reverted the page but am unsure as to what the next step is. Clausewitz01
 * The next step is to post a warning on the user's talk page about that how they're edits have been removed and not post nonsense to Wikipedia. If they've vandalised after receiving a final warning, you follow the instructions at Administrator intervention against vandalism. --WikiSlasher 07:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

First strike capability

 * Having a poll here, it is about time that we institue a 1 strike policy for repeat offending sharedips, 1 vandal edit, and a 24 range block, 2 and they earn themselves a 48 hour ban, and so on, could be the solution to our AOL problem. All in favor --Heliac 15:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Support

 * 1) Heliac 15:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Mishatx 16:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC), as long as they can still register to edit. I'd hate to see someone locked from wikipedia because they've been unlucky with IP addresses from their ISP.
 * 3) Alvestrand 17:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC) - assuming that you do mean REPEAT offenders, and that the admin CAN block on first strike, he doesn't HAVE to.
 * 4) <b style="color:#006633;">Deenoe</b> 00:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC) at the condition that we clearly define what is repeatitive offenders (the line to cross).
 * 5) Charivari 04:14, 3 November 2006 (UTC) You may lose some helpful edits, but I suspect there are many more people who would contribute but do not because of disgust at the high level of vandalism that currently prevails.
 * 6) --A. B. 07:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC) -- except for AOL vandals. From looking at my own web site's access logs, AOL users' IP addresses are changing every few seconds. (Except for a few AOL users with cable modem accounts where AOL is tied in with the cable TV company). Otherwise, why show any patience at all with chronic offenders? It just makes work for all the volunteers to cleanup their vandalism.

Oppose

 * 1) Oppose No way. A "first strike policy" deprives sysops of the ability to make rational decisions about the potential impact of their blocks. Preventing account creation holds back thousands of good edits. We don't block AOL, because, amongst the vandalism, there are good contributions. The majority of our long-term shared IP blocks do not block logged in users, and many allow account registration. In short, such a policy is both ridiculous and onerous. Alphachimp 16:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) If the problem is that all AOL users are vandals, then why don't we just block them all indefinitely? Obviously not all of them are vandals, and Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit.  Yes, we have a number of exceptions, but I don't think it wise to add "AOL users" to that list.  Regardless, this has been discussed so much already.  Bring it up on WP:AN if you'd like to see a change; I doubt it will happen though. --Spangineerws  (háblame)  22:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) Strongest possible oppose Oi... Here we go again... If we block them immediately, they'll just get all peeved off and do what they do best. What do you expect? They'll just say Hmmm... I got blocked, so I'd better think about what I did wrong and not do it again. Pbbbbbbbbbbt. Not likely. --172.193.246.175 00:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) "This is not a vote" but Strong Oppose per Alphachimp and Spangineer. Newyorkbrad 00:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 5) Very strong oppose, sorry, but too strict. — Mets501 (talk) 00:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 6) Oppose per Alpha and Spangineer. Many useful edits come from the same IPs, this would unecessarily increase collateral damage. JoshuaZ 00:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 7) This is a vote- Oppose. Badgerpatrol 01:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 8) Very strong Oppose this is would be a step backwards for wikiepedia as it would affect brand new users that are just editing for the first time this would affect WP:BITE.  The effect would be to block a vandal as well as everyone else without any warnings, our three system warning and recent change patrols are stopping these issues qwickly as it is. TheRanger 01:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 9) Oppose  Firsfron of Ronchester  01:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 10) Erm, I can't see how this solves the AOL problem.  If anything, it seems like it will do more harm than good, in that dedicated volunteers will be adversely affected, and if our volunteers are adversely affected, then so is Wikipedia <font color="#008000"> hoopydink Conas tá tú? 01:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 11) Vehement oppose The insertion of another restriction on admin actions is antithetical to what Wikipedia is all about. We are restricting the ability of admins to act sensibly in favor of "sentencing guidelines" that serve the purpose of bogging Wikipedia down in a bureaucracy of rules, regulations, and restrictions. --210<font color="#0000C0">physicq  (<font color="#0000C0">c ) 04:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 12) Oppose. Seriously. Blocks are to stop vandalism, not to penalize an account and try to get people to switch from AOL or register an account if they want to be editors. Often a block to a shared IP is not necessary, and I would oppose any policy that takes that discretion away from admins (WP:IAR notwithstanding). --Ginkgo100 talk · e@ 04:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 13) Oppose. Blocking IPs from AOL one by one is pointless. They can change IPs in an hour, and there's no or little correlation between vandalism from a specified IP today and from the same tomorrow. CP/Mcomm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 04:43, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 14) Oppose - on two grounds: 1) this isn't the place to decide Wikipedia policy, that should be done under WP:VAND, where it's stated, 2) the idea is in the right direction, but it's too rigid. If it could be fixed up, I would support it. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 04:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 15) Since this has sadly turned into a poll, oppose in the strongest possible terms. Basically, this suggestion will mean permanent blocking of several well-known dynamic ISP IP pools, which reduces to us saying, "Your ISP sucks, so we are not going to let you contribute and help us, because we hate your ISP. If you want to help us, switch to someone else." Who the hell are we to demand someone switch IPs? Some users are just not able, whether for economic or geographic reasons, to switch service providers, and taking this attitude is shooting ourselves in our collective foot by not allowing them to help. Tito xd (?!?) 04:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 16) Very Strong Oppose Horrible idea. I never have figured out why users sometimes think we can have hard and fast rules. We can't. We just have too many admins (1000) to police and we have no one to police them. :) It just doesn't work. And besides, 1 strike? Come on. I don't like vandalism either (I am a semi-regular vandalism fighter) but I like strict rules even moreso. As for "fixing the AOL problem", various measures have helped that situation considerably. This just simply isn't needed. --Woohookitty(meow) 12:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Other

 * 1) Voting is evil etc. etc. This should be discussed if anything, but I doubt it's worth the effort. Admins have an amount of discretion anyway so if it was an issue and admin could block something fairly quickly anyway. We have certain "norms" regarding placing of warnings etc. but they are in no way binding, someone can vandalise once and be blocked instantly others may vandalise more with all the appropriate warnings and an admin may still choose not to block them. Admins are not automatons, they are expected to look at a situation and use discretion, not just say "rules is rules". This "policy" would achieve nothing, if there was an appetite to more generally block with less warnings admins can do so now within the bounds of the blocking policy (though they may find themselves under closer community scrutiny). Proposing policy is not a way to get admins to do your bidding, even if you could get 500 people to support this policy you couldn't enforce that admins have to... --pgk 07:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * 1) I think a lot of people think we are talking about a One Strike you're out case, but we're not. We're talking in the event of a case where the vandal is a repetitive one, has already been warned again and again, blocked again and again, and that the principle of not-vandalizing doesn't go through his mind. --<b style="color:#006633;">Deenoe</b> 12:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

16 recent vandals at the test4 level -- an analysis of their edits
Over the last week or two, as I've come across vandals at the test4 level, I've gone back and looked at every one of their edits over a period of weeks or months. That's about 400 to 500 "Jack is a dork/Tony is gay/my school sux" edits I've read. I've made notes on their talk pages as to the percentage of those accounts' edits that were vandalistic. In almost every case it was >75% and usually 90 to 100%. The remaining "useful" edits were usually very minor -- changing "teh" to "the" for instance. The links below will take you to my comments on each one: The majority of this unscientific sample had been blocked before with little impact shown on their behavior. Most accounts are registered to schools. Most blocks that have been administrered have been very short and the IP addresses have been back at it within hours or days. Some have had multiple "last warnings" not yet followed by any block.
 * 1) User talk:72.164.247.214  User:72.164.247.214 (talk· contribs)
 * 2) User talk:209.7.182.4  User:209.7.182.4 (talk· contribs)
 * 3) User talk:168.69.134.1  User:168.69.134.1 (talk· contribs)
 * 4) User talk:209.7.209.91  User:209.7.209.91 (talk· contribs)
 * 5) User talk:206.176.81.3  User:206.176.81.3 (talk· contribs)
 * 6) User talk:193.133.28.100  User:193.133.28.100 (talk· contribs)
 * 7) User talk:207.63.105.2  User:207.63.105.2 (talk· contribs)
 * 8) User talk:216.20.64.85  User:216.20.64.85 (talk· contribs)
 * 9) User talk:205.155.216.40  User:205.155.216.40 (talk· contribs)
 * 10) User talk:158.123.138.50  User:158.123.138.50 (talk· contribs)
 * 11) User talk:207.63.105.2  User:207.63.105.2 (talk· contribs)
 * 12) User talk:195.195.161.242  User:195.195.161.242 (talk· contribs)
 * 13) User talk:AvocadoRevenge  User:AvocadoRevenge (talk· contribs)
 * 14) User talk:209.146.77.35  User:209.146.77.35 (talk· contribs)
 * 15) User talk:212.219.13.74  User:212.219.13.74 (talk· contribs)
 * 16) User talk:210.18.215.131  User:210.18.215.131 (talk· contribs)

I did not compile any numbers, but my impression is that the average vandal makes about 25 vandalistic edits between blocks -- that's a lot of cleaning up our volunteer editors are having to mess with as we go through the 0-1-2-3-4 sequence of warnings. While it's been said here that the sequence is not rigidly required, my experience is that it's very hard to get admins at WP:AIV to block someone who's not cycled through the sequence. In fact, even when a vandal meets all the requirements listed on the WP:AIV page, in my experience, admins normally only block about 2/3 of the vandals I submit.

Because the first few blocks are relatively short, I'm guessing it takes aabout 100 to 150 vandalistic edits on average before the user gets a long enough block to really cut down his flow of vandalism. Once again, that's a lot of cleaning up that's going on the meantime.

Wikipedia's mission is to provide a free, comprehensive, reliable encyclopedia to millions of readers. The primary resource constraint it faces is volunteer editor time available to keep up with all the edits, making sure they're reasonably reliable. Volunteers' time is to Wikipedia what cash is to a business. I think we squander too much of it in our efforts to get chronic vandals to see the light. The 16 above certainly are never going to stop of their own volition from what I can tell.

I believe we owe a higher duty to our readers and our volunteers than we do to the folks at these accounts, even the once-in-a-blue-moon good faith editor. That occasional good faith editor can always establish an account or go edit Wikipedia anonymously from a public computer at some library.

One other comment -- I came across only one heavy duty AOL vandal during this time; I did not bother to warn him. I believe AOL vandals' share of mischief has dropped since I first became active earlier this year. --A. B. 07:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Mercy for the guilty is cruelty to the innocent. JRSpriggs 08:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Vandalism is cleaned up very easily, since good faith editors outnumber vandals by more than 100-to-1. You mock good faith efforts to change "teh" into "the"- the truth is, those errors are harder to fix than just doing a history revert, or doing a rollback. Plus, bots working behind the scene handle a lot of vandalism too. The primary resource constraint of Wikipedia is not editor time to fix vandalism (vandalism currently stays on the page for an average of a few minutes as is) but rather the depth of the editor pool. If you look beyond the Western-centric computer science and pop culture articles you will find that we still need editors who have expertise in math, hard sciences, humanities, arts and editors who live in third-world countries. Thus the reason that we are "nice" to anons is that we know that a lot of people start out with stupid test edits, and eventually become valued contributors- and we need more contributors. Vandalism isn't as damaging to wikipedia as you make it out to be, so we can afford to assume good faith. Borisblue 08:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yikes! I didn't realize I was the bad guy here, Borisblue. I really struck a nerve. --A. B. 21:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Borisblue, as for "Western-centrism", I don't recall that Whois has shown any of those 16 accounts to be outside of the U.S., U.K., Australia and Canada, but I encourage you to actually go check the 16 accounts -- I may be wrong. --A. B. 14:59, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * "Bots working behinds the scenes" are invaluable, but they miss a lot. And some introduce real problems when you get two different vandals back to back. They revert the second vandal's edits back to the first vandal's, then human editors start adding material to the article. This can happen with human reversions of vandalism, but it's much less common; humans usually revert back to a good copy. To revert that stuff -- if you actually catch it (so much slips by) -- you have to painstakingly go and separate out the good edits, revert to a good version, then reinsert the good edits. --A. B. 15:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, what kind of methodology do you use? Admins block something like 150 anons a day, and you seem to be taking the worst 16 vandals over the last few months. Of course this will be pretty bad, since you're taking the extreme worst cases! These are by no stretch of the imagination the typical anon vandal, and my personal experience is that a lot of typical vandals stop their malicious behaviour after test3 or test4. That said, these IPs you brought up should be reported to Abuse reports. Borisblue 09:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Borisblue, my methodology was simple -- these are accounts that have had test3 or test4 warnings that have vandalized the articles I watch and edit in the last several weeks. I did not cherry pick for especially bad cases. This was an unscientific process but I think the sample was fairly representative. I spent many hours on this becuase I thought it would be useful to the Wikipedia community. I did not expect this work to be so harshly received.


 * I have laid it the evidence as easily as possible for others to check for themselves -- links above to those talk pages and the users' contributions. On each talk page, you will find a summary of recent edits. You are welcome to check the data yourself. Before the tar gets too hot and the bag of feather broken open, I encourage folks to actually look at the evidence and see for themselves. --A. B. 21:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I have seen cases (e.g. at Newton's laws of motion which is vandalized many times every day) where one act of vandalism has required several edits by inexperienced people to correct, if it is corrected at all. When I first started monitoring that article there was damage which appeared to have been left uncorrected for months. What do you suppose happens to those articles which are not being watched by any good editors who are experienced with reversion? JRSpriggs 09:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Repeat IP vandals are certainly a problem. But the fact that some of them are also changing "teh" to "the" suggests that they just want to do something - anything.  Mr Stephen 09:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, this is true and I did not count those edits as vandalism. So if an IP account is producing 3 good edits for 25 bad edits, I've noted it in the talk page summaries I produced. --A. B. 15:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps they are vandalizing, taking a screen capture to brag to their friends about ("Look, I changed Holocaust to POOP BUTT BUTT!!! LOLZ"), then changing it back before "anyone notices". - - <font color="DarkGreen">weirdo <font color="DarkRed">actor  <font color="OrangeRed">tundefined<font color="SteelBlue">c -  - 12:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * "You mock good faith efforts to change "teh" into "the"- the truth is, those errors are harder to fix than just doing a history revert, or doing a rollback." -Borisblue


 * Borisblue, per Wikipedia guidance, when I spot someone vandalizing an article on my watchlist, I look at all their edits since their last warning and ensure they get reverted. That's very time consuming even if you think it's not very hard. Add to that warning the user and your chewing up time. --A. B. 21:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know about that. Changing teh into the involves spotting it, editing the page, and saving the page. Not a lot of work. Reverting an edit requires you to spot it, check the last unvandalised edit, revert to it, and post a message on the vandals talk page. Preferrably you should check other contributions by the same user (in case of vandalism), and if they've had a last warning since their last block you can post them over here as well. I really think the vandalism revertion takes quite a bit more work than fixing a little typo. --Lijnema 15:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. The "Fix common errors" project/bot can rectify these types of things without the help of vandals who spend 90% of their time screwing stuff up. --Wolf530 (talk) 16:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with AB, too many admins are too soft on vandals. They miss the basic point, us postive editors shouldn't have to waste our time tracking down and reverting vandals in the first place. Vandals are like child molesters--they deserve no mercy and we shouldn't have to put up with them at all.Rlevse 16:58, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, this will get heated. As someone who has been overwhelmed by fixing vandalism, leaving almost no time to actually edit articles, I can sympathise with the original posting. However, I've never had a problem with someone not being banned after a few warnings. I do think that some articles should be permanently semi-blocked (Booby comes to mind, as does Evolution), and I'm concerned that we're moving towards allowing warnings to be removed from talk pages. All just my 2 cents - worth every penny ;) CMacMillan 17:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * For the life of me, I don't understand why there's an official move afoot to delete warnings over 3 months.--A. B. 15:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, there are those shared IPs. Like with schools, where you can have a user talk page filled with warnings, last warnings, block messages, but where you still need a full warning cycle until you can get them blocked again. To me it just doesn't make sense, when someone's had a last warning, then that should "stick". If someone makes a few vandal edits, goes away for a month, the last warning doesn't count anymore, and they are free to vandalise some more, needing a new "last warning" before getting a block. Personally, I get a little annoyed at things like that. --Lijnema 18:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Some of the above comments are missing the point about shared IPs. It may be the case that 90% of the edits from that IP are vandalism and many of the remaining edits are minor edits. However, you must consider the fact that we are not talking about one person here. There are some people who are trying to contribute if even in a small way and some people who are vandalizing. The question is... which is more important: blocking the vandalism or encouraging the contributors? Having spent some time fighting vandals myself, I understand how frustrating it is. Nonetheless, much good work is done by anon IPs. Short blocks encourage anon IP contributors to open an account. Long blocks will tend to discourage them altogether. --Richard 18:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't believe you can distill it quite so far. It's not simply a case of either blocking the vandals vs. encouraging the contributors... vandalsim begets vandalism, and you also lose proven contributors after personal attacks and the sheer overwhelming number of vandals they revert. If it's distilled an either/or question, then the reciprocal becomes: Which is more important, allowing vandals or losing contributors? CMacMillan 18:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Fighting vandalism takes a little bit more than just making a rollback.

And still I, as most admins, am very reluctant to give long blocks (more than 24 hours) to shared IPs, such as schools, to avoid collateral damage. The whole process can be time consuming, one or more hours a day. And we all know how precious time is. Therefore I’m inclined to support a system where a repeat vandal, after previous final warnings in the past, even weeks ago, gets a block right away with ever increasing periods of time, without having to go through the whole process of warnings again (unless we’re dealing with a shared IP). Repeating final warnings over and over again makes a joke of the whole system. As the proverb says : “Surgeons cut, that they may cure”.JoJan 19:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * One must give a warning or even a block on the talk page of the vandal.
 * One must check the other contributions of the vandal and, if necessary, pick up the pieces and undo the damage
 * One must remove the vandal from the list of WP:AIV.
 * If one blocks a vandal using a shared IP, one can expect an email from other users of that shared IP. Then one has to explain what has happened and why the action was taken.
 * One’s personal user page is always at danger getting vandalised.


 * While I can see your point about wanting to reduce vandalism, I am not sure that blocking anons or shared IPs is the best way to do it. I don't have any hard figures (and they'd probably be extremely difficult to get), but before proactive steps were taken against shared IPs, I'd want to see some hard and solid documentation on the proportion of good IP edits to vandal IP edits. The selection above is certainly interesting, but I think we can all agree it's not a representative sample.


 * For a first step, I wonder if anyone would be able to get such facts and figures together? Justin Eiler 22:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I thought I did that. Justin, you are welcome to review my data or generate your own. As for "representative", as I said, it was the test3 or higher vandals that hit the rather broad, eclectic watchlist (history, geography, technology, science, health) of 170 articles I maintain. So, it's not "scientific" but probably not far off the mark (except for the arts, pop culture and politics). --A. B. 14:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I should add that once I started looking at a vandals edits, they took me all over Wikipedia -- not just the articles on my watchlist. --A. B. 18:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry--I looked at your OP from a slightly different angle (probably because I was half asleep when I read it) than you meant it. For some reason I was seeing an argument against anons in general, not an argument for cracking down on anon vandals faster. I'll go away and have another cup of coffee now. :) Justin Eiler 17:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * My parting comments:
 * I would not have invested all the time in the analysis above had I known how negatively it would be received.
 * I did not cherry-pick data -- these were the accounts with test3 or higher warnings that vandalized the articles on my large (170 articles), eclectic watchlist over several weeks. Once I started analyzing all of a vandal’s edits, I was looking at pages all over Wikipedia, not just my watchlist.
 * I hope readers will go back and actually look at the summaries I prepared on these talk pages.
 * I've tried to back my comments with hard data. I encourage others with differing views to do the same -- it can only shed more light and produce less heat on this surprisingly contentious issue.
 * I'm not out nuke all vandals. My data was about the high volume vandalistic accounts I encountered.
 * This is about chronic vandalism accounts of any sort — not anonymous vs named user editing.
 * There is some slight inaccuracy (<5%) to what I've done -- for example, if someone changes a date from 1847 to 1849 in an article on a topic I don't know much about, is that vandalism? I just went off whether it was reverted. Also, some times, I'd get interrupted and lose my mental count -- so maybe I noted 23 or 25 vandalism edits instead of the actual 24.
 * I think some of the respondents underestimate the sheer frustration many less experienced rank-and-file editors such as myself (3k edits/6 months) feel — both with the problem and with the reluctance of the more established members of the Wikipedia community to take necessary steps to curb it.
 * My hunch is that there's a strong Pareto relationship. Blocking a few chronic vandalism accounts for a very long time may subsantially reduce all vandalism -- as well as admin load (at WP:AIV) and editor load (clean-up).
 * Take a look at the expert retention article and its talk page as well as the list of Wikipedians who are not currently active.
 * There's often more concern about maybe converting vandals into productive editors than keeping the productive editors it already has. Many of these vandals will only "convert" by aging into maturity, not by anything Wikipedia does. In the meantime, their actions have to be addressed.
 * Finally and most importantly, if Wikipedia's top priority is to make freely available useful, encyclopedic information to millions of English speakers around the world, then by extension, the community's first responsibility is to its readers, not its editors. "Wikipedia is not a blog, webspace provider, or social networking site". —A. B. 19:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * A.B., thank you for compiling these statistics. I think that your insights are very useful and the data is a good look at the vandalism issues we're confronting. --Wolf530 (talk) 19:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

In praise of anons (slightly)
I appreciate the enthusiasm for vandalhunting and protecting the integrity of Wikipedia that people above are espousing... but we must remember this is a wiki.

The fundamental principle of a wiki is that anyone can edit it. Easily. With a single click.

We encourage people to register an account and get involved not to set them apart from anons but to lock them in. We live or die by people volunteering to edit. If people don't, kiss the place goodbye.

Now, I never made a single edit before I got an account. But I think people will find that most people here did edit anonymously for a while. And they made their newbie mistakes (strictly speaking 'tests', but often misconstrued as 'vandalism').

So how many future good users would be swept away by any pogrom against anons? Most, I'd think. The test edits are done because people simply cannot believe that someone would put up a website and let just about anyone edit anything on it and have the results immediately available. I mean - where else can you do this to the work of others without being a scriptkiddie?

I'm perfectly happy to block a non-dynamic IP for a long period, treating it as a "naked" user account. But the slightest sign that the IP is shared or is dynamic, then no, I won't and most others won't. The collateral damage - the possibility of sending away the next Celestianpower or Sango123 or JzG - is just too high and too painful to contemplate.

Wikipedia editors tend to suffer from a "close the door behind me" mentality. Editors who started editing after they did are not as good editors as they are. Admins who were promoted after they were are not as good admins as they are. I have no judgment on whether this is true or not (well, yes I do, it's bollocks of the first order, but let's pretend I don't) and can understand the human reactions causing it.

We gain far more and better editors by welcoming anons and trapping them into becoming permanent account editors than we lose by frightening off people who see vandalism. The wish to close the door in some way upon any person because they happen to use the same computer as a vandal is understandable. It's also very flawed thinking. ➨  ЯEDVERS  20:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * ЯEDVERS, my data above is for high volume vandals, not accounts with a test0, test1 or test2. I just don't see myself trying to close the door behind me -- a look at my edit history will show a number of welcomes to new editors, each with a customized message relating to their specific edits. IP editors I encourage to get named accounts. As for "enthusiasm for vandalhunting", I'd say weariness is more apt here. --A. B. 15:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand and agree with your viewpoint. But all that being said, we are not in an optimal situation for what you're talking about. Let me lay out some off-the-cuff example changes that would allow us to meet in the middle here:
 * -Easier vandalfighting documentation. As I've said elsewhere, WP namespace is a nightmare. Too hard to find anything. There's a half-dozen different pages for each type of policy or issue. We need an "occasional editor friendly" set of documentation that gives people very clear guidelines for dealing with IP vandals, and what to expect in return. For example, "If you see blatant vandalism (addition of vulgar words), use X template on the person's userpage. Use X, Y, Z procedures/tools to rollback the changes. If the vandalism continues report the vandal at X page." And, we need to make sure that policy lines up on all relevant pages, so one page doesn't say "Warn 4 times," and another says "Warn once and report."
 * -Easier integration procedures. We need to have a set of very clear templates that allow occasional editors to approach IPs who are not necessarily blatant vandals, and say "Here's why you need to register, (protect yourself against blocking), and here's how to do it. Welcoming committee doesn't seem to be right approach here, but perhaps this could be a sub-project or something.
 * -Agreeance between policy and admin knowledge. Right now, some admins say follow the book to the letter, while others are saying that X, Y, Z situation (blatant vandals, for example) means we only have to warn once. If/when policy is simplified, admins need to be aware that the policies are what they are, and if you don't follow them then you put yourself at risk for recall/deopping, whatever. The point is, we need policies the community as a whole agrees upon. Right now it's clear that there are camps who believe the policies are too stringent on vandals, and camps who believe policies are not stringent enough. We need to meet in the middle.
 * Right now, I've seen three different discussions about similar subjects. RfA, Village Pump, and somewhere else that escapes me :D We need to put together a single discussion page on proposed policies dealing with vandals and hammer all this out. I don't know about everyone else, but I'm tired of all the ambiguity. And to those who say their is none? You're naive :) As I mentioned above, I personally have seen a number of admins arguing over the best way to deal with vandals. So clearly there is no community consensus. We may never have 100% agreement about what to do, but we need to at least get to a point where everyone is mutually unhappy ;) --Wolf530 (talk) 21:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Um, to digest (sarcastically, I'm sorry): We have a big solution coming! Look out for the solution! This is an amazing solution! It will solve everything by being a great solution! Could we now all discuss the issue and find a problem to fit it?


 * Sorry (no, really, it was just too good a line to miss... :) Still, the idea of honing a solution until everyone is unhappy with it is entirely within Wikipedia's noraml way of doing things ;o) And admins discussing an issue, even falling out over it, is not a reason to panic. Even admins are human beings with differing opinions just like everyone else. We just have a couple of extra buttons that the community elected us to have and a secret desire to assimilate the entire human race and upgrade all lower forms of life to Human2.0 in the shortest amount of time. ➨  ЯEDVERS  21:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC) Cabal members, remind me: am I allowed to mention in public point #3 of the charter?


 * We have Cleaning up vandalism, whose prime purpose is to be an editor-friendly guide to reverting vandalism. If there's something not clear there, then feel free to clarify it.
 * As for the integration procedures: that is exactly the purpose of the Welcoming Committee. However, there is no reason why someone would be blocked if they're editing anonymously, unless they start doing something, so that doesn't really solve any issues.
 * However, most importantly, the community has decided time and time again to give administrators the leeway to decide according to their judgment. The Blocking policy gives general guidelines, but in general, most will claim IAR if they have a good reason. I can think off the top of my mind at least several examples of editors who were not given adminship (Ryulong was the last one) because they followed the letter of the rule too closely. So no. In a way, the ambiguity you talk about is needed. Tito xd (?!?) 22:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks Tito :) I've not seen CuV page before, and I think that works just beautifully. My only qualm is that it's clearly not linked-to well enough! I see that it's second-to-last in the "See Also" section of WP:VANDAL, and a few other places -- but for such a good resource, it does seem hard to find! --Wolf530 (talk) 02:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I totally agree with what Wolf530 just said. I've never seen it and it needs to be linked to more. Spread the word everyone! --WikiSlasher 09:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Just a point that this discussion was not specifically about anon vandals. There are plenty of named vandals who get the whole gamut of warn, warn, warn, now-I-mean-it-warn, Okay-now-warn, What-about-now?-warn, nothing. CMacMillan 22:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * True -- it just so happens that my data is based on 16 test3 or test4 level accounts that vandalized pages on my watchlist and they happened to all be anon accounts. There are named accounts out there that vandalize -- they just didn't cross my path those weeks. They've crossed it plenty of other weeks.


 * There's also the special case of spam. I did not include all the spam accounts, many of them named (to avoid tell-tale red links), that I deal with as part of WikiProject Spam. One reason is because my edit list is skewed towards spam-fighting and I thought that work inappropriate to use in the material I presented yesterday. I actively work to reduce spam and I think for a group of amateur volunteers, the folks at the Wikiproject actually do a surprisingly good job of frustrating professional level search engine optimization people.


 * Some of those spammers get to spam3 or spam4. Many are named accounts. I have found admins to be generally supportive and responsive in blocking, often indefinitely, such accounts when needed. This even includes situations where there are multiple accounts producing the same spam but each with only one or two warnings -- admins will IAR, see that they've really gotten >4 warnings collectively and impose a block.


 * As a general rule (with some exceptions) spammers actually do less damage, I think, than normal vandals. They typically add something parasitic at the margins, often as a link. Not good, but not as bad as removing or altering the core text of an article.


 * I just happen to work on spam because with many years experience in technology, technology marketing and management, I think I understand how these people think and I can make a useful difference. (I don't think the way they do, but I've so often met the type in my career that I know the way they think). --A. B. 15:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism?
Can you help me to determine if these last edits in White people are vandalism? They keep changing cited metarial with uncited metarial. And then, one person added stuff which he was explained that it doesnt mean what he thinks it means. See and  Thulean 22:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism again?
Another one. I can not believe quoting Oxford English Dictionary is seen as POV pushing.

dif:

Not to mention he put a whole bunch of uncited meterial back there again and called this all a minor edit. Thulean 22:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind, this user is simply reverting all my edits, without explanation, without regarding citations or discussions, I'm just going to warn him.

another dif: Thulean 22:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Question
I just recently reported an incident of vandalism which had been the first edit from a given IP address since it received a final warning given out five days ago. The reason given for removing the address from the list was no warning in the past five days. Could someone please explain how the policy applies here. I thought that, considering that this was the first edit from that address since it received the final warning, that the final warning would still be in effect. Where was I wrong? Badbilltucker 23:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * IP addresses are often assigned to different users. It's entirely possible that that user wasn't the user which received the original warning. Giving another final warning before reporting is good practice, typically, just to give them a chance to stop and contribute to the encyclopedia. --Lord Deskana (swiftmend!) 23:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * While that is true, there are also many IP addresses which are static. So if all the edits over several days are vandalism, I think we should block the address for a long time. Even if an address is shared, there may be only one person among those using it who is editing and he may be a vandal. JRSpriggs 08:45, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Whether I agree with you or not, blocking policy ultimately dictates me action. --Lord Deskana (swiftmend!) 00:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I just indef blocked on exactly this basis. If someone thinks I went against policy, feel free to reduce the term of the block. - Jmabel | Talk 00:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I personally think that one should never block IP addresses indefinitely, and so I will tend to give harsh blocks to repeat offenders (6+ months for some bad vandals). The guy you blocked was only blocked once before, and I felt you were a bit harsh on the guy. I'm tweaking the block to one week. That okay with you?  Nish kid 64  00:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Xeonxl and User:82.29.130.171
Recently on the anime article, these two users (who could be the same person) added a website used for illegal downloading to the external link section. User:Finite and I have explained why the site shouldn't be there, and yet they continue. What should I tell them? Is there a subst that I can use in case this happns again? Or should I just type a warning by hand? // Sasuke  -kun  27  16:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Never mind. They seem to have stopped for now. If they start acting up again, I'll deal with them myself. // Sasuke  -kun  27  17:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

User: 218.188.3.113
While I do understand that this user only vandalizes once every few days, the vandalism is consistent. The IP address (User:218.188.3.113) has been warned 10 times in the past year (including 5 times this past month). Moreover this individual has been blocked 11 times in the past year. The policy regarding IP addresses is quite vague, but I feel that a blocked needs to be instituted to stop this IP from vandalizing in the future. Andrew4010 04:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * For convenience . I agree. JRSpriggs 08:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I blocked the user for a month. This user only vandalizes. There's no point in not blocking a user just because they edit infrequently. If all the edits are vandalism, then they shall be dealt with consequences.  Nish kid 64  18:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

WAKE UP
Somebody wake up and block 142.227.139.32!!!!
 * As of 7:59, 24 November 2006, this IP has been blocked. Andrew4010 18:07, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * For future reference, please report to WP:AIV for block requests.  Nish kid 64  19:00, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, he was reported already.. I think a user got impatient with reverting edits.--Vercalos 19:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, my bad then.  Nish kid 64  19:17, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

How many "last warnings" does someone get?
This address -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:142.240.200.10 -- has half a page of warnings, including five (!) "last warnings." That user must really consider the admins chumps -- he has even vandalized this page in the past.1 Yet he has received two more "last warnings" since then. How many does he get? Laszlo Panaflex 00:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but see, whereas me warning you a lot of times at User talk:Laszlo Panaflex guarantees that you'll get the message, warning an IP user doesn't guarantee that they'll get it. I use the IP now but in several hours, someone else is.  So the reason we just can't block it indefinitely is because others will need to use it and possibly use it productively.  As you'll see, the IP in question has many blocks on it, the most recent being a month long.  It's not because our policy has "no bite" as you phrased it on the talk page, it's because we try to minimize colateral damage.  Metros232 00:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Metros. However, I'm going to elevate this issue to the next level and file an Abuse Report with this IP. Hopefully we can accomplish something more productive this way. For future reference, this case can be found here. Andrew4010 04:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Berry2466 and User:Berry246 (same individual)
This editor, using two separate usernames, has been reverting my edits in a trolling fashion on both the Carrie Fisher and Harry Connick pages. The issue has been over what qualifies as "Jewish-American". This is not merely a content dispute: his "evidence" that they should be considered "Jewish American" includes a bogus reference link re. Harry Connick (see User_talk:J.R._Hercules). Also, check out the personal attacks this user has left on my talk page. I left a couple of warning templates on {both} his pages, but I'm not sure how to proceed beyond that, especially given that this is an unregistered editor I'm dealing with. J.R. Hercules 22:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey this is nonsense! I read the page Vandalism which he sent me and obviously this has nothing to do with that. As for personal attacks, he has constantly called me a vandal even though I've never vandalized anything! And he keeps removing information even though I've given him sources on his talk page. Instead of replying he called me a vandal again. Berry2466 22:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and reviewed all of your edits and have found no apparent vandalism. In the future, if you are being warned for no apparent reason, try to discuss it with the person that has warned you. Also, this is not the right page to report vandalism. Finally, try to avoid using two different names with editing; sticking to one is best. You can seek arbitration if necessary. -- Andrew4010 01:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

New "undo" function
From Wikipedia Signpost/2006-11-27/Technology report:
 * It is also now possible to undo edits other than the last one, provided that no intermediate changes conflict with the edit to be undone. The interface used is more akin to "manual revert" than rollback: on diff pages, an "undo" link should appear next to the "edit" link on the right-hand revision. When this link is clicked, the software will attempt to undo the change while preserving any changes since then, and will add the result to the edit box to be reviewed or saved. (Andrew Garrett, r17935–r17938, bug 6925)

There is a new button labelled "(undo)" which appears on the right under the edit summary when you look at the diff in a vandal's contributions. This allows you to remove a change without disturbing subsequent changes to the same page. I just found out about it. Have not had an occassion to try it yet. JRSpriggs 10:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * neato! Borisblue 10:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism from School IPs
I'm not an admin and there's a lot of techy and process stuff about Wikipedia I don't know. One thing I do know is that I spend a lot of time patching up vandalism and of late seem to have "specialised" in Anon IP vandals.

Much of the time, these turn out to be schools or colleges and admins are reluctant to give lengthy blocks. This is completely understandable, but when there's a persistent problem, what is to be lost from blocking anon activity only from that IP? It means the vandal has to go through the bother of registering, reregistering and reregistering again each time he gets blocked, while useful edits can still be made from "proper" accounts.

Given my opening comments, it's likely that I've missed a good reason not to, but can't admins seeing a school with masses of vandal history and blocks impose lengthy or indefinite anon only blocks, to save people like me from a lot of repeat work? --Dweller 17:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Eh, it depends on the admin. Some of us do not hesitate to issue long term blocks for educational IPs Alphachimp 18:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Block 165.21.155.17
Block this IP immediately. He received a Final vandalism warning, yet he vandalized a user's talk page a few hours ago. I have reverted his edits, and I am reporting him/her here to be blocked ASAP. Thank you. -- Imdanumber1 ( Talk &#124; contribs) 17:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Wrong page. Read the talk page headers. --Deskana talk 18:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Two questions
One of them is extremely nitpicky. In the directions, it says not to list them if "They have not vandalized very recently (past 24 hours), nor since the last warning (test3 or test4)." The use of 'nor' to me implies that you would list them unless they met both those criteria. If you shouldn't list them if either one is true, it seems like you should use 'or' instead. Or it would be clearer to make them separate bullet points, though of course that would make it longer and less likely that people would read it. Picky, I know.

In other news, I've been removing vandals from the list if I notice that someone has blocked them but they're still up there. As a non-admin, should I not be doing that? Thanks, delldot | talk 16:01, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Since most of the items in the numbered list are phrased in the negative, it might be easier on the eyes to invert the whole thing. (And thereby dodge the original issue.)
 * For the second question: that's a very helpful service, and I can't imagine why anyone shouldn't do it! Melchoir 17:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * In regards to the second question, yes please remove vandals who have already been blocked from the list. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 20:39, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Remember to use a descriptive editsummary ie removed x already blocked by y - list empty / z reports remaining Agathoclea 21:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses! I was bold and took your advice, Melchoir, I hope this works for everyone. If not, you're of course free to revert or edit it. Thanks, delldot | talk 03:18, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * "Neither A nor B" and "not A nor B" both mean the same as "not (A or B)" which is the same as "(not A) and (not B)" as I use them in ordinary speech. In formal language, one would just say "A nor B". See Logical NOR.
 * Certainly, I would not knowingly list an already blocked user. However, if I saw that someone else had listed one, I would not remove him from the list because the removal might be misunderstood as an act of vandalism (trying to cover up another act of vandalism). The extra effort required for the administrator to decide that my removal of it was justified would more than cancell out any benefit. JRSpriggs 11:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * How about including a link to the Block Log in the edit summary? Then it's very easy to check they're really blocked. The other option would be for someone to code a bot to do the job - should be easy enough, check the page every 10 minutes or so and remove anyone that's been blocked for more than a minute (should give admins a chance to get back and remove it so they can explain it in the edit summary if they need to). I have no experience writing bots for Wikipedia, but I might give it a go - could be fun and it's a good excuse to refresh my knowledge of perl... --Tango 12:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You don't need perl, do you? Go .NET!  :) —Wknight94 (talk) 13:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I haven't yet found a need to learn .NET and I don't intend to go looking for one - I still associate it with VB, which I avoid like the plague. If I do write a bot, it will probably be in Python actually, so I can use pywikipedia. --Tango 14:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

About the 'nor' thing, I see that you're right, JRSpriggs, but hopefully the way it is now is OK too? Also, about removing people being seen as vandalism, how likely of a possibility do you see that as being? Seems unlikely to me, especially if I'm the one that listed them in the first place (the usual case) and if I follow the edit summary format suggested by Agathoclea. delldot | talk 15:23, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's likely. The people that monitor AIV will quickly come to recognise your name anyway. Just be very careful not to remove a name that shouldn't be removed, or we'll never hear the end of it. --Tango 15:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * There is no need to create a bot or anything fancy like that. We are already supposed to use the "vandal" template for registered users which yields, for example, . Notice the pointer to his "block log". Similarly, for the "IPvandal" template which we supposed to use for unregistered users, e.g. . When you do your edit at Administrator intervention against vandalism to put in a message containing those templates, just click on the block log and check it when you are looking over your preview before you save the message. JRSpriggs 09:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Any way to block periodic vandals?
The rules say vandals can only be reported here if:

-They have vandalized recently (past 24 hours), and since the last warning (test3 or test4). -The vandal has received the full range of test warnings recently (i.e., within the previous week).

But what if a vandal only vandalizes a page every 2 weeks or more, so that each time they do it, they will not have received a warning "within the previous week"? Is there no way to request a block for such a user, even if the vandalism is very obvious and they keep doing it again and again? Hypnosifl 08:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * If it's blatant and it's the whole of their contributions (or quite close to it), then you might give it a shot and post it here. Otherwise, report it on WP:ANI. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 09:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * If it's a logged in user and all they ever do is vandalise, then they can be blocked indefinitely as a vandalism only account. If it's an IP address, then you probably need to confirm it is the same person using the address each time (for example, do they always vandalise the same pages?) if we're going to do anything. --Tango 13:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for a Long Term Block on 168.102.135.9
This is apperantly from Bishop Dwenger High School. I was reccomended by Meegs to put this on here. I'd say about 95 precent is very clear vandilism, by entering things like penises, and other rude entries. I was told they can't be permanitly blocked, but a long term could stop them. Thank you. --ASDFGHJKL 20:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC) : 168.102.135.9 (talk • contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • block user • [ block log ])


 * It says in big writing at the top of this page not to report vandalism here. Please put it on the actual AIV page, not the talk page. Thanks! --Tango 20:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)