Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template/Archive 1

Hi everyone

a) loving the idea b) seen it first implemented (for the UK anyway) on Channel Tunnel Rail Link c) Dannyboy3 has taken up the challenge at; d) thus i've had a go at Sheerness Line e) Britmax has done the Fawley Branch Line on his userpage
 * Cherwell Valley Line
 * Staines to Windsor & Eton Line
 * Coventry to Nuneaton Line
 * Leamington to Stratford Line
 * Lymington Branch Line

so i was wondering if people bringing it accross from the German wikipedia could point out where we're goping wrong (becasue i don't spak a lot of German!), etc - I'm not happy with how the line looks, i think i need to use BS3 (or a higher number). Pickle 20:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, some thought later, and i think i've cracked the Sheerness Line --Pickle 21:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Made that work, and done two more Sheppey Light Railway and Ashford via Maidstone East Line Pickle 22:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm getting the hand of this - Bromley North Line Pickle 11:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ashford to Ramsgate (via Canterbury West) line done, still having problems rendering how the Ashford layout should be represented. Pickle 13:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * And another closed line - Canterbury and Whitstable Railway Pickle 14:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Just done Kent Coast Line, but am having problems rendering the layout at the Dover end Pickle 18:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

For a few more elaborate examples of this template, have a look at Cologne-Frankfurt high-speed rail line, Hanover-Würzburg high-speed rail line and Niederelbebahn. --doco ( ☏ ) 22:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I like what has been done with the various German lines, but i think the problem at Dover and Ashford is different (or maybe I'm trying to be too detailed or concerned with historic track layouts), in ASCII art form, here is the rough layout i want to show (* = station)

|                      *                    Priory |                      /\                     /  *                 Harbour /   \                --***---*--*          Town, Marine, and Admiralty Pier

because I've already used the first column of the BS3 template, I've only got one column to play with to the right of the line.Pickle 10:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Ashford is worse (i can sort of imagine a solution to the dover issue);

|        -\         /           ---Ashford--- -/       \--                   \                    |

I've done the line that comes down form the top right (Ashford to Ramsgate (via Canterbury West) line), top left is Ashford via Maidstone East Line, the CTRL is the middle line and the SEML is below it (both going left to right), and Marshlink Line is in the bottom right. even when one works out how to show it (rotate so its vertical), but there would need to be 4 columns. Pickle 10:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, the template wasn't really designed for things like _that_, I guess. As the lines get more and more complex, either the level of detail has to be diminuished or the number of columns approaches infinity rather quickly. My best bet would be something like this:

Quite a mess I admit, but the best I could think of... --doco ( ☏ ) 18:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

thanks for the help everyone, Chriscf has done some work on the Dover area - see User:Chriscf/Kent Coast Line and with a little tweaking i think that is resolved. Ashford is going to prove difficult whatever happen and i'll have a play with --doco's example latter. Pickle 14:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I edited Trent Valley Line to have the template. Geoking66 05:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Blank ID parameters
I've amended the BS2 and BS3 templates so that the first two (or three in the case of BS3) parameters are optional - they default to 'leer' (blank space) if omitted. , for example, will now give a straight between two spaces. – Tivedshambo (talk) 07:50, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Brillant idea, that should save some time. Cheers. Dannyboy3 15:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Icon request
If anyone has SVG editing facilities, could they consider making an equivalent to TurmBHFo and TurmBHFu for large stations please? Required for Lichfield Trent Valley on Birmingham Cross-City Line. – Tivedshambo (talk) 17:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Can we also have a more complete set of 90-degree curves for the blue lines, and a horizontal straight, please? That's uSTB2lf, uSTB2lg, uSTB2rg, and uHSTR. (Sorry to be demanding - I've just had a look at SVG editing, and can't make head or tail of it, or I'd do these myself.) Less pressing, but also useful, would be complete families based on STB1lfg, TurmHST (eTurmHST and TurmHST seem to have the wrong labels), tKRZ (covering blue and red lines), xABZlg(U), and STB3lg. Lastly, does anyone have any examples of the use of (a) the double-track icons like evGRENZE (b) ABZlgÜWBo? Many, many thanks. AlexTiefling 13:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I've just learned enough about SVG editing to produce uSTB2lf, uSTB2lg, uSTB2rg, and uHSTR myself. They've now all been uploaded to Commons, and the only English page I could find which needed them has had them added. I'm going to see what else I can get sorted out. AlexTiefling 13:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Addendum: The families based on TurmBHFo, TurmBHFu, and STB3lg (now called ABZ3lg) have now been created, with the exception of split-level stations with disused vertical metro lines. (If there's demand, I'll create them.) The series based on xABZlg(U) can wait - the premise of that entire track design seems to be changing over at the German site, although I don't speak enough German to figure it all out. (Does anyone know the full rationale behind the naming convention?) I'm leaving double track well alone for now - it's probably superfluous. As far as I can tell, ABZlgÜWB and KRZ_Arg are 'joke' entries to show how putting too much into one icon can be too much work. I can produce utKRZ and utUKRZ myself if needed, but any capital-T versions (with the tunnel running horizontally) are well beyond my skills, and must await the creation of tHSTR and a tSTRlg family at the least. The three missing members of the STB1lfg family, and the eight possible part-disused versions of each of them, could be put together if needed, but at the moment I'm skeptical of their usefulness. Comments? AlexTiefling 16:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Bridge
Are there icons where you culd show the start and end of a bridge, instead of the whole thing? Simply south 12:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Subways
For interactions with the Tube, it appears that there are some subway (ie blue) icons missing. See the South Eastern Main Line and the interaction around New Cross with the East London Line. Pickle 18:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Fixed - see above. AlexTiefling 13:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Incidently, are there any U-Bahn icons? Simply south 11:01, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Annoying spaces - a solution
I'm sure I am not the only one who find it annoying that this otherwise excellent set of templates leaves a gap between each line section icon, as illustrated in the upper box on the right (taken from Channel Tunnel Rail Link. So, I worked out what needs to be changed to prevent this, and there turned out to be two things. The first is the use of prettytable-R (which is used in the header for the "main" table); the second is the use of an image size of 20px. Increaseing the image size to 30px and changing the table formatting info to the following: "cellspacing='0' cellpadding='0' style='float:right; border-collapse:collapse; border:solid 1px #AAAAAA;'" ... results in a table like the one on the lower right. No gaps :-)

Therefore, I propose that all the relevant templates have the image size increased to 30px, and that a new template (say Template:BS-start) be created with the revised formatting info, and used instead of prettytable-R.

What do people think? Tom pw (talk) 20:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't get gaps - I presume most people don't or it would have been designed out in the German version. What browser and skin do you use? – Tivedshambo (talk) 22:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * IE7, default skin. Probably what 90% of visitors use. Given the choice between a system that works for some people and a sytem that works for everyone, I thinl the latter is better. Tom pw (talk) 01:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't get gaps either here or on the German version. Also, 30px blows up the infobox far too much, IMO. Maybe the people on de: have an idea about this (there's some quirks when porting templates between wikipedias, such as lacking CSS classes), I'll ask for someone knowledgeable from there to have a look at this. doco ( ☏ ) 01:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I've done some experimenting and I get gaps if I increase text size above normal (View -> Text Size in IE6). I agree that any system should work for all browsers, settings etc, but if we expand the infobox too much we run the risk of having articles which are dwarfed by the adjacent route map. – Tivedshambo (talk) 07:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I get gaps when I view it (IE7 default) but I don't really mind the gaps. It makes it easier to tell the difference between each row, though I guess that's not that hard. I don't like the look of making it 30px at all, its just too big. Now I'm used to this style I'm not sure if it'd look good without gaps, but that's me. --Simmo676 12:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the gaps are caused by Prettytable-R, which is slightly different in different versions of Wikipedia. The Dutch have decided not to use this template for railway strips. Instead they created Prettytable-SP, which does not display this problem. HandigeHarry 15:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * So the Dutch also came up with the idea of using a different template for the table formating. With regards to size... look at the two boxes on the right. The lower one is very slightly wider, and a bit taller. I don't think tweaking the formatting will result in articles being "dwarfed by the adjacent route map" any more than currently. Tom pw (talk) 15:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If the Dutch use a different one that gets rid of the gap, I'd prefer that than the one with huge icons. It may be only slightly wider but they don't look particularly good compared to the normal ones. Remember also that your example isn't very wide to begin with, whereas things like the Tees Valley Line, Birmingham Cross-City Line, Durham Coast Line, etc, are already significantly wider and taller, and so using even bigger icons would make it a lot bigger, and as was said, dwarf the rest of the article.--Simmo676 15:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I have to admit its not a problem for me. Some of the edits i have been doing are some giant templates and with the two comment columns I'm struggling to keep the table narrow enough. Pickle 19:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * [Unindent] Fair comments about the size. Thanks for pointing me in the way of the Dutch example. The table on the right uses nl:Template:Prettytable-SP, with the sole modification of not having a fixed width: "class='toccolours' cellspacing='0' cellpadding='3' rules='all' style='float:right; clear:right; margin:0 0 1em 1em; empty-cells:show; border-style:solid; border-width:1px; border-collapse:collapse; font-size:85%; '" It has no gaps, but retains the small size. Would anyone object to making this the standard for the route-maps? Tom pw (talk) 12:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * If it is satisfactory to the Dutch, it must be satisfactory to anyone. :)
 * Or, more seriously, preferences are personal, not national. There is no reason to have a different appearance in differnt languages. HandigeHarry 13:49, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, no one has objected, so I'ce created Railway line header |(sed the final example on the right) and shall update things accordingly.
 * Looks very good, it also has fixed the broken line issue I had in Firefox when using comments in the station field. Thanks a lot! doco ( ☏ ) 13:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Just tried it on Glasgow Central Railway. Before trying I had IE6 set at text size smaller (and had no gaps). Set the text to normal and then changed the template and viewed on preview. Lost the gaps, but also lost the differentiation between the text sizes in the table. As a result I did not save the changes. --Stewart 13:51, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The difference in text size is still there, it's just a smaller difference. (If we'd gone for slightly larger icons, this wouldn't be an issue). Tom pw (talk) 11:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Can we request new symbols
I need a TurmBHFo (High/Low level station) where one of the lines is closed variant. Otherwise I have to get creative to do Builth Road on the Heart of Wales Line page.Is there a procedure for this? Graldensblud 00:31, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I have added a few new symbols to cope with junction arrangements that I was needing, but not one for the above situation.. --Stewart 10:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What editor did you use - did you just copy the existing and paint pucket/rotate etc? Cos illustrator/photoshop won't handle the SVGs, so I guess I need to explore some freeware - care to recommend? 161.73.37.81 14:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I saved an existing SVG file and then editted manually using an html (text) editor. Used a bit of trial and error and the result if there for you to see - (Image:BSicon exHSTR.svg; Image:BSicon exABZ3lg.svg; Image:BSicon ABZ3lg.svg; Image:BSicon exABZ3rg.svg and Image:BSicon ABZ3rg.svg). One of the files claimed that the original was created using CORELDraw. To date I have not uploaded this to wikipedia commons - would someone who understands the means of linking between Commons and this Wikipedia either advise or help. --Stewart 17:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm no expert but the idea is you upload the file to the commons and then link like a normal image link (you can't upload fair use and some other types to commons). I would be very wary of the Corel file and the copyright hawks out there (again not my area of expertice). Pickle 19:09, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I've now added a family of icons for part-closed high and low level stations. Their names follow the standard format, and the station itself is shown as open unless both lines are closed. I hope the icon you (Graldensblud) need is in among them. I've also produced a family of Metro/Surface interchange icons on the same model, but I wasn't too sure about what their systematic names should be. Currently they're called uoTurm... for cases where the metro is on top, and uuTurm... for cases where the metro is underneath. If we need split-level station icons where the station itself is closed but one line is open, I'm not sure how those would be named either. Anyone understand the naming system better? AlexTiefling 14:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Addendum: Let's not forget that TurmHST breaks the name and style at present. AlexTiefling 15:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your work ;) Pickle 15:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I've added a bunch more, and also renamed the Metro/surface stations to follow the correct naming convention. I haven't yet got a complete set of interchanges where the Metro is the vertical line, but I can add these if there's the demand. I've updated the main index to show the new additions. AlexTiefling 16:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This may be outside the scope of what the template is intended for, for long and remote single line routes it would be useful to have an icon that could represent a crossing loop, perhaps a half circle/or split line, using BS1/3 columns you could also represent closed stations that have become loops. A minor freight station could be used in lieu of a specific loop icon

Image requests Tom pw (talk) 16:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) [[Image:BSicon xABZql+l.svg|20px]], but with the pale red line removed... I think it would be called ABZdgr. (This is for Wessex Main Line). The mirror image would be good for completeness.
 * 2) * Done - the names are ABZlr, ABZrl, ABZgf and ABZfg, and exist in normal, e, x, and ex versions. AlexTiefling 19 :47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) ** [[Image:BSicon ABZlr.svg|20px]], [[Image:BSicon_ABZlr.svg|20px]], [[Image:BSicon_ABZl+l.svg|20px]], [[Image:BSicon_ABZr+r.svg|20px]]... Thanks :-) Tom pw (talk) 22:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) [[Image:BSicon_ABZq+r.svg|20px]] and [[Image:BSicon_ABZq+r.svg|20px]], but with the curve gonig up instead of down. (This is for completeness Channel Tunnel Rail Link)
 * Done. The new files have names beginning ABZ3, and match the STRxx class of curves. AlexTiefling 14:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Can people upload any new images to Commons, not WP:en, so they can be placed in Commons:Category:Icons for railway descriptions? (Those two haven't been placed)


 * Great work ... but now my current version of "spoorstrip" (3.3) does not recognise the new symbols, so I have to edit the text file manually! Please can you advise HandigeHarry, so that he can revise the editor program. Sheepcot 21:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm working on it! And you can always add your own symbols to the Spoorstrip catalog. Just convert the symbols to BMP. HandigeHarry 06:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Could we have a symbol similar to the S-Bhan interchange but with the National Rail logo on it? - I think it would work better here (it's a map of a metro line). Likewise, stations with the Underground logo may be useful for making London Commuter maps. JameiLei 21:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * 'loving the template so far, one of the rare infoboxes I like as I'm not an infobox lover (the possibility of transforming this infobox into a table would be great). I don't quite understand the depreciation issue yet as I've created a few template using Railway line template as a reference, nevermind. I'm however confused with [[Image:BSicon SBHF.svg|15px]] and [[Image:BSicon S+BHF.svg|15px]] where caracteristics seem to have been swapped, I'd assume the stop with the red circle would mean an interchange as it possesses the station style red circle... To continue on this regional rail scheme, would it be possible to created station icons with the 'M' for metro? Maybe one with 'R' for regional? Would it also be possible to expand the concept of this template and have most of the lines in blue so that underground/subways and metros can be catered for too? Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 10:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We already have [[Image:BSicon BHF.svg|20px]], [[Image:BSicon HST.svg|20px]], [[Image:BSicon SBHF.svg|20px]] and [[Image:BSicon DST.svg|20px]] icons for major, minor, subway(=metro) and freight-only stations, so I don't see the need for a Regional or metro icon. (For blue lines, see section below) Tom pw (talk) 19:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm not seeing any icons. Do you mean [[Image:BSicon SBHF.svg|15px]] and co? I was thinking in the lines of not the SBahn logo but another country's arbitrary logo, like suggested above the British Rail arrows, or as I suggested, the 'M' for the Parisian underground... The SBahn logo doesn't seem so appropriate for an interchange station with the Rouen Tramway (see Template:Ligne Paris-Le Havre diagram). Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 11:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * (Image links corrected) I see the "S" in the symbol stood for "S-Bahn" = "Stadtschnellbahn", or "fast city train"... which is to say, a metro or commuter type line (e.g. Merseyrail). (I thought it stood for "subway" - e.g., the Underground). *thinks*. I suggest a generic "M-in-a-circle" for general metro lines (such as Paris'), and also the Underground roundel for use on LUL matters. However, I don't think we should have a seperate icon for "regional". Tom pw (talk) 23:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Icon generator
See ... it should be easy enough to use. You need to have an SVG-enabled brower in order to view the finished product (Adobe do a free plugin). I plan to add support for "blue" lines. Let me know of any problems/querries at my talk page. Tom pw (talk) 19:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The generator now has support for blue lines (and pale blue) in any combination with the red/pale red. Let me know if there's any problems or extra features wanted.
 * I've had a stab at it, good little applet there. I created [[Image:BSicon STRM.svg|15px]] and [[Image:BSicon uHSTR.svg|15px]], I arbitrarily added M for metro and kept the original naming scheme. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 11:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It now does bridges too. (Don't forget to add icons to the list.) :-) Tom pw (talk) 13:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If it's ok with you, I'll generate a few icons with blue lines, upload them and complete the table. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 16:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * And don't forget to tell me, so I can add them to Spoorstrip.exe. HandigeHarry 17:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

software
I played with "Spoorstrip" over the weekend and i was asked to give some feedback here;

1) It adds extra code, due to 3 comments line, the answer is something like if the box isn't filled it isn't necessary 2) it hasn't taken into account of the fact that if you leave a column blank (instead of writing leer) 3) i was "coding" in BS3 but its very hard to add new rows, etc (i did it manually) as it didn't seam to like this 4) some of the symbols didn't match up - i think it was a subway line with a bridge over a mainline 5) there is no ability to scroll down the page so i had to cut and past out after every 30 or so rows 6) i presume the ability to overlay two symbols was some type of rowspan, because while it worked on screen (a great idea!), en wikipedia wouldn't display it, I'm not sure what i did wrong 7) the constant tabbing between tabs was a bit annoying - some symbols common to all tabs are used regularly while others are quite rare

but fundamentally, as someone who hasn't a club about programming, great work in making it, etc i hope these comments are useful Pickle 19:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * 1) Yes, it adds several |||||}} at the end of each line if there are no comments. Does it matter?
 * 2) I do not understand this. The Empty icon is not in a tab, it has a separate button on top.
 * 3) To add new rows, hit Ctrl Insert.
 * 4) This may be due to uncareful design of the icons. What icons do you mean?
 * 5) You can scroll with the arrow keys and (ten lines at once) with Page Up and Page Down.
 * 6) Special templates exist to allow this. I'm afraid they are not available in the English Wikipedia. Furthermore, it doesn't work too well with IE6 (only one of the overlain icons is shown). I can copy the templates from the Dutch Wiki, may be tomorrow.
 * 7) Yes, I agree. I have been playing a lot with the tabs, but I haven't found the final answer yet. However, you can put your favourite icons in a separate tab. Just rename station_BHF.bmp and line_STR.bmp to mytab_BHF.bmp and mytab_STR.bmp. Do not change the letters after the underscore. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by HandigeHarry (talk • contribs) 22:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC). Oops: my name: HandigeHarry 22:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * 2) see Wikipedia talk:Railway line template, problem went away when i started using leer again
 * 3) ;) thanks
 * 4) i think it was UKRZu but i failed to not it down
 * 5) i couldn't use arrow keys within a box
 * 6) it's worth a go, thanks ;)
 * Pickle 22:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * 5) yes that's still a problem. I think I'd better not use the horizontal arrow keys to move to the next comment. I'm thinking of an intuitive solution.
 * 6) I created templates BS-2afb, BS2-2afb and BS3-2afb, so this should work now, if there are no more than three icons in a row. HandigeHarry 07:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) I see that the English templates have made 'leer' optional. Very good! My program does produce 'leer' in its output, so it is compatible with the templates in other languages, which require 'leer'. On input, any unrecognised icon defaults to leer, including a missing icon, so I don't see what the problem is.
 * I think the latest version (3.1) of the program can be customised so that there is no 'leer' in its output. However, my new added templates BS-2afb etc, still require 'leer'. HandigeHarry 08:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, its not a problem as such but some editors like tidy code! Pickle 12:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * 5) In the new version you use Arrow to move within a field and Shift Arrow to move from field to field.
 * 2) I uploaded a file with the name BSicon .svg, which equals BSicon leer.svg. From now on the word leer is optional in all languages. No more need to modify the templates. HandigeHarry 14:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Alt text
Shouldn't each of these images have some meaningful alt text ("junction", "terminus") etc? Andy Mabbett 20:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * And title, for use as a tool-tip in conforming browsers. Andy Mabbett 17:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Spoorstrip : Changing from BS to BS2 and BS3
Is there a way of getting the software to change a BS template into a BS3 template by "blanking" or "emptying" the relevant parts of the map?? I am currently having to manually change the templates. Sheepcot 19:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You can type Ctrl+3 on any line, and it changes to three icons in a row. You can move the icons left and right within the line by typing Ctrl+Arrow.
 * You can also do this in several consecutive lines at once, if you select the lines first by dragging the mouse over them.

Actually, its worse than that. When I edit the "source" data, to get it to a BS3 template from a BS template, I have to add the "LEER" icon. But for some reason, Spoorstrip is reinterpreting this, and changing to the simplest version, which means that it changes it from a BS3 back to a BS template!! Sheepcot 20:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That's not a bug, it's a feature :) When you type BS3|leer|anything|leer it is changed into BS|anything. This displayes just the same. If you enter anything else instead of 'leer', BS3 will remain intact.
 * Besides, the word 'leer' is never output, it is removed. This also displays just the same.
 * HandigeHarry 16:12, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Spoorstrip : SBRÜCKE etc.
I have noticed that Spoorstrip replaces the 'Ü' character with an 'š' character (English Version), which means that when it is copied into WP that it is not recognised, and so has to be changed manually. Sheepcot 19:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hm, I never ran into that. I'll see if I can do something about that. Actually, I am not really grateful to the Germans for using German names. HandigeHarry 16:13, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I just tested in in the English WP, and everything went fine. Perhaps it's caused by your computer's settings, but of course this does not mean that the program is not to blame. However, I do have problems with some other non-ASCII characters, and that should be fixed too. HandigeHarry 16:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Spoorstrip : exHSTR
This appears as a blank cell rather than a disused horizontal section of track. What I mean is that it correctly puts the right text in the source (so WP sees it right), but the program displays it as a blank cell. By the way, do I get paid for de-bugging software! Sheepcot 20:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the file line_exHSTR.bmp is damaged. What is it? It should be a pink horizontal line. If you like you can edit the file yourself.
 * Well, I'll be the one who debugs the software, and I do net get paid. But I am very grateful for your bug reports. HandigeHarry 16:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

When should tunnels be shown?
At Great Western Main Line there are two route maps... the only tunnel shown on the first is Box Tunnel (2,939m / 1 mile 1452 yards), while the second shows tunnels as short as 49 yards. I feel the latter is clearly too small to be included, but I was wondering what the cut off point should be. I personally feel that any tunnel under 1km / 1,000 yards shouldn't be shown... or maybe we should go for 500m/yards. (Also, any tunnel with a WP article of its own should be shown, regardless of length). What do people think? Tom pw (talk) 16:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There's a difference between a short tunnel on the GWR mainline, and one on a local branch, or section, so it's a matter of perspective. Also, some short tunnels may be significant, for one reason or another (site of accident, notable architecture, early date, construction technique, etc.) In this case, the South Devon tunnels are tourist attraction in their own right, though that map may belong on a separate article about that section of the line. Andy Mabbett 16:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The difference is (generally) between what you show for a simple table for a main line (see WCML and ECML), thus on that stage/scale the Box tunnel is probably worth showing. But when you get down to really detailed line, either small branches or something like the Watford DC Line that kind of detail is worth showing. Personally, on bridges, i show motorways and major dual carriageways but not every little road - again the caveat about notability comes in, then it is worth mentioning. I've had the same issue with rivers/canals on the Trent Valley Line IIRC.Pickle 19:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This is the kind of question that I love. It is complex to answer, and nobody will ever be happy with the answer. What to do?  Tunnels/Bridges/Viaducts etc.   I like the idea of "notability", which means that all recognised/important structures are included. So thats solved part of the question.  As for guidance on length, I would use a "proportion" rule.  By this I mean that if the map cover say "20 km" of railway, then any structure (Bridge/Tunnel) should be at least 1% of this total.  So for a  20km railway, then anything longer than 200m should be included, but anything less excluded, unless it meets the "notability" rule (say major roads/rivers etc.).  If we are talking about a 200km railway then this would mean that anything less than 2km would be excluded, which is interesting, as it would rule out box tunnel, were it not for the notability rule.  Similarly, Brunels bridge over the Thames at Maidenhead, and Hanwell Viaduct (both listed structures) would fall foul of the 1% rule.  I guess its a question of "what is right" .... that is very subjective. Sheepcot 20:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm also interested in questions like these. My rule of thumb has been that on simple long-distance maps, no tunnels or bridges are relevant. On more detailed maps like the Watford DC Line or the Thameslink map I'm working on now, I think every named tunnel and junction should go in if possible. Road and river bridges, though, are so common that only reasonably notable ones should ever be mentioned. AlexTiefling 09:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Station links
Slightly off topic, but I've got so fed up of repeatedly typing in a station name twice in links (e.g. Wolverhampton ) that I've created a template to do it. Use Wolverhampton and it will expand the same way. Note that this only works for station articles which are named "xxx railway station". – Tivedshambo (talk) 19:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

New icons
ABZa is probably an error ABZe exABZa exABZe are fine HSTRM is not needed, use uHSTR STRM is not needed, use uSTR STRMlf STRMlg STRMrf STRMrg are not needed, use uSTRlf etc. HandigeHarry 17:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I create the M series because I believed didn't exist. the project page Catalog of pictograms is missing them which I why I created them. Please complete the documentation so no more duplicates get created. <b style="color:#000000;">Captain Scarlet</b> <i style="color:#FF0000;">and the Mysterons</i> 18:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * See Commons:Category:Icons for railway descriptions (and the related subcategories) for the entire set of icons.


 * As for ABZa - I'm not sure what's wrong with this one. It seems to display ok (for me at least) at 20x20, and the source file seems fine, but it doesn't display at full size in the image description page. I've re-uploaded it, then recreated it and uploaded that as well, without success. Any ideas anyone? – Tivedshambo (talk) 19:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * ABZa seems to work now. Possibly a cache needed purging somewhere? – Tivedshambo (talk) 19:13, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, Commons:Category:Icons for railway descriptions is not guaranteed to be complete. I prefer . However, this has another drawback: it contains many icons which have been created by the Germans for purposes of testing, and which are not intended to be used. Why their use is banned I do not know. You also find a very complete catalog in Spoorstrip.exe, and I attempt to keep it up-to-date. HandigeHarry 19:19, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I do my coding by hand. I have nothing against spoorstrip - I just haven't got round to downloading it yet. – Tivedshambo (talk) 19:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The blue icons are in Commons:Category:Icons for railway descriptions/set blue. HandigeHarry 19:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * If we're going to show metro icons on the main page, can we use the u-coded, rather than M-coded, ones, please? The names are complicated enough already. (HandigeHarry: Can you do anything with my queries (in English, sadly) over on the German talk page, please? I'm doing my best to understand.) AlexTiefling 00:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I already do railway discussions in I don't know how many languages. Some time ago I translated all discussions on the French discussion page into English (a German had asked for it). Unfortunately the Norwegians are interested too, and I am unfamiliar with their language. HandigeHarry 11:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've already pointed out thazt conversations on this page led me to believe that the blue lined icons did not exist. The documentation on this project page being incomplete I created the iconsq I believed were missing. Don't ask me to use something that isn't linked! If you guys have the icons stashed somewhere, feel free to add them yourselves using pages you guys no about that aren't documented. All the infoboxes I made were created using the doc present on Railway line template, if items are missing there, please do not blame me for thinking they didn't exist 'ey! ;) <b style="color:#000000;">Captain Scarlet</b> <i style="color:#FF0000;">and the Mysterons</i> 09:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Obsolete icons
Tivedshambo asked for a list of obsolete icons. Well here it is. The order is new|old. Lower case prefixes are omitted. ABZlf|ABKlf ABZlf|STB1lf ABZrg|STB1rg ABZlg|STB1lg ABZrf|STB1rf ABZdf|STBdf ABZdg|STBdg STRlg|STB2lf STRlf|STB2lg STRrf|STB2rg STRrg|STB2rf 2SBHF|2SHBF SBHFl|SHBFl SBHFr|SHBFr uTurmBHFo|uoTurmBHFo UTurmBHFu|uoTurmBHFu UTurmBHFo|uuTurmBHFo uTurmBHFu|uuTurmBHFu eUTurmBHFu|eUUTurmBHFu utENDEa|utWENDEa utENDEe|utWENDEe ueSTR|uexSTR ABZ3lg|STB3lg ABZ3lf|STB3lf ABZ3rg|STB3rg ABZ3rf|STB3rf ABZdll|ABZdl1 ABZdrr|ABZdr1 HandigeHarry 21:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Another new icon please
Been looking at the Northern City Line and the large underground section has an interchange station with the tub, there is thus a missing icon for an interchange station between a underground rail line and tube. Pickle 19:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with tS+BHF? AlexTiefling 20:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Use for canal routes
Would anybody be interested in adapting and extending this set of icons, for use in describing canal routes (I'm thinking particularly of those in the UK). Andy Mabbett 19:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The only extra icons I think you'd need would be for locks (up/down) and lock flights... anything else? Tom pw (talk) 22:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Possibly tow-paths (none, one side, other side, both sides); junctions, moorings, winding holes, wharves, boatyards. We'd really need to ask a canal project group, and perhaps run a pilot on one route. Andy Mabbett 22:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * + Junctions with rivers, reservoirs Andy Mabbett 20:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Bridges with railways, roads, watercourses; tunnels; aqueducts... AlexTiefling 13:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This is now being discussed at the new UK waterways' project talk page, where there is a first-draft example. Andy Mabbett 09:54, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

New icons
I attempted to create my first SVG files. They are intended for a tube line within a railway. Their names begin with the letters 'bub'. After uploadng I find that the result is disappointing, so I will not employ the icons yet. I invite anyone to improve them. HandigeHarry 20:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * * I think it might be better to establish a policy of using only the red icons for lines with mixed use, and to make sure a proper set of junction icons for red-blue exists. Having a third (fifth?) type of line increases the complexity too much. AlexTiefling 13:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Can someone please (pretty please with a cherry on the top) prepare a horizontal version of the icon "LUECKE". I would be eternally grateful. Canterberry 23:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, as you ask so nicely ;-) I've created HLUECKE and its "ex" equivalent. (see right). – Tivedshambo (talk) 17:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much indeed, it is much appreciated.Canterberry 19:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! Expect to see it in use soon... AlexTiefling 21:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I have a further request. We have a symbol for the interchange between ships/trains "TRAJEKT" and "BOOT", but nothing for the interchange between planes/trains (e.g. Gatwick Airport, Stansted Airport).  Anyone up the challenge?? Canterberry 20:00, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * How's this? (FLUG; can't see much need for a TRAJEKT-type icon) –EdC 23:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. A TRAJEKT-type icon will have limited use. However, the FLUG icon, is a masterpiece. Sir, I knight thee "sir FLUG of St. EDc. Your contribution is beyond calculation. Thank you very much. Canterberry 23:56, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Creating
Can anyone create their own pics\icons? Simply south 20:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, with suitable software, for example . However, first check to see whether your icon exists, and try to keep the names consistent.
 * It is even possible with Notepad. HandigeHarry 10:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Spoorstrip: How do I get off the Glasgow metro?
I have just downloaded the spoorstrip program - Thanks Harry!. An excellent idea in principal, but I am having a problem at the moment... Whenever I run it, regardless of language or wiki selected, it loads data from a wikipage about the Glasgow metro! How do I get it to pick up the page I want to work on, and how do I save the results so I can continue later?

I've read through the info that came with it, but can't quite see what to do. regards, Lynbarn 12:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

There may also be another use for this template/program - it could be used at a larger scale, for diagraming individual station layouts, especially if the width restriction could be lifted (the template only works to 3-wide, spoorstrip works up to 5) - it just needs a few symbols for station buildings, platforms, goods sheds, signal boxes etc.  Just an idea, regards, Lynbarn 13:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * My feeling is that at the finest level of detail, there's too much variety for it to be worthwhile using the template. For example, Waterloo station (surface rail only) has more than 20 platforms in its main section, and four more at Waterloo East, with a huge variety of signalling and switching apparatus in the station throat. Even a relatively simple station like Cambridge railway station gets highly complex at this level, and places such as Euston or Birmingham New Street would be phenomenal. AlexTiefling 13:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The Glasgow code serves as an example for novice users. Hit Delete and it is gone.
 * To copy code from a Wiki page: Load the Wiki page and click Edit This page. Click in the source code. Hit Ctrl A and Ctrl C. Now go to Spoorstrip and hit Ctrl V.
 * After editing, you can copy the code back in the same way.


 * There is no particular way (not yet) to save the results temporarily. You can copy the code to Notepad and save it as a TXT file.


 * Template width: All national Wikis are different :(. You can create the templates BS4, BS5 on your English Wikipedia, if you need them. Just copy from BS3 and modify as needed.


 * If you want to picture an entire station layout, you don't only need wider BS templates, but also more icons. Those icons must be created on Wikipedia Commons with the prefix BSicon. The also must be created as BMP files in Spoorstrip. You can do both yourself. Anyhow, whenever I update Spoorstrip, I include all new icons which I found on Commons. HandigeHarry 16:07, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Naming conventions
I've asked this question on the German page, but they (perhaps sensibly) ignore questions in English. Can anyone explain, in reasonable detail, what the naming conventions for the icons - especially junction icons - is? In creating new icons like the forks, I've had to make it up as I've gone along, and this has not always been easy. The German users seem to have some kind of approval process, which has led to the motorway-bridge icon being classed as 'experimental' even though it's used well and successfully on the English pages. Personally, I feel that is too restrictive - but I'm interested to know what others think. AlexTiefling 14:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The naming conventions are originally German. Some letters are:
 * STR = Strecke, line
 * BHF = Bahnhof, station (not to be confused with HBf - Hauptbahnhof)
 * BRÜCKE - Bridge. That Umlaut (spots over the letter U) might be a nuisance.
 * KRZ - Kreuz, crossing
 * Turm - Tower, a two level station
 * ABZ - Abzweig, branch


 * Prefixes are used for disused lines (e and x), tube lines (u), double lines (v and d), tunnels (t). I recently introduced the prefix 'bub' for a tube line within two railway lines.


 * Postfixes:
 * a - Anfang, beginning
 * e - Ende, end
 * l - links, left
 * r - rechts, right
 * Since the strip must be read from the top down, you may find that l and r are used the wrong way around.
 * f - fahrtrichtung, from the top down
 * g - gegenrichting, from down to top
 * o - oben, on top
 * u - unter, bottom
 * HandigeHarry 16:15, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd figured all that, except the bit about reading the template from the top down (!) - but I can't work out how the names of the many junctions (not made by me) are arrived at. AlexTiefling 16:20, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Adding coordinates and microformats
I recently added a list of actions and their coordinates to Digbeth Branch Canal; which also uses the hCard Microformat. I would like to investigate the possibility of adding an extra column, for coordinates, to this template, together with the necessary HTML classes for hCard, but my knowledge of template syntax is limited,. Would anyone be interested in working with me?

I would envisage that, for example,



would become:




 * Andy Mabbett 00:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Is it really necessary to plaster co-ordinates all over every article? Simply link to the article, and ensure the co-ordinates are listed there if anyone wants them. Otherwise the next idea will be to have a column linking to the Network Rail departure boards, a column linking to RailsAroundBirmingham or similar, and what started as a simple strip map on the side ends up filling the screen. – Tivedshambo (talk) 06:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hang on a minute. The Digbeth Branch Canal is an article on CANALS, not RAILWAYS. If the "canals" people want to develop a version of the map for their use, then fine, but to try and integrate it with the railways map is madness. I already think that the map if being used beyond its purpose to draw out "complex" junctions, when that was not its original purpose. Sheepcot 07:39, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I used the Digbeth article by way of an example of layout. There are no ""canals" people here, and no "railway" people, We're all Wikipedia editors and we're all supposed to be working collaboratively. Don't be so parochial. Andy Mabbett 08:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No it's not "necessary" to "plaster co-ordinates all over every article". Where did I say it was? I said I want to look into the possibility of making it an option to do so. Your slippery slope argument is fatuous. Andy Mabbett 08:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Easy now Pigsonthewing, Sheepcot was simply pointing out that what you are proposing is the use of a template for what it was not created and can caue problem on the sheer basis that it was specifically designed for railways on all its intricacies. You should maybe cool down and avoid commenting on Sheepcot by judging his/her response to you. Cheers, <b style="color:#000000;">Captain Scarlet</b> <i style="color:#FF0000;">and the Mysterons</i> 08:30, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I can make no sense of your comment; and once again your tone is unacceptable.Andy Mabbett 08:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You're out of line Pigsonthewing and your response to User:Sheepcot was unacceptable and quite brutal. If you cannot accept the reply of others don't ask for commenting. Using the railway template for canals, road or other linear arrangement is a good idea but you must understand why the template was created in the first place and accept Sheepcot's comment pointing out the fact that this template was designed for a specific use. <b style="color:#000000;">Captain Scarlet</b> <i style="color:#FF0000;">and the Mysterons</i> 08:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Andy Mabbett your tone and langauge is unacceptable, and has no place on Wikipedia. If we need co-ordinates for locations (do we?), then perhaps the best place for them is either a separate table, or on a separate page for each location. As an example, a station (in general) has a page all of its own, so it would be logical to have its co-ordinate on that page. As has been stated to you (repeatedly) the strip maps were developed for railways. If others wish to use it as a basis for roads or canals then great, but "never the twain shall meet". As others have said, the strip maps are tending to get over-complicated, and it was never the intention to try and replicate the "Quail Maps". Sheepcot 09:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "your tone and language is unacceptable" Eh? What on Earth are you on about? "As has been stated to you (repeatedly) the strip maps were developed for railways". Yes. And, as I've said, I used the Digbeth article by way of an example of layout; I want to look at the possibility of including the coordinates of railway features. The issue of adding canal graphics for for use with the unchanged template, is being discussed, quite reasonably, elsewhere. Andy Mabbett 09:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Gentlemen! Gentlemen! If you all take the time to read through some of these comments, I think you will see a degree of inflexibility on all sides. Andy's original question was quite valid and reasonable, and I have tried to answer it positively below - if you can add to that in the true spirit of Wiki, then please do. Otherwise, perhaps least said, soonest mended. Regards, Lynbarn 09:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank your your calm intervention; though I'm not sure how I can be accused of inflexibility; since all I'm asking is to be able to investigate the possibility of us being more flexible. Andy Mabbett 11:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think what you(we) need to find out here is how to embed a call to a template within another template, assuming such a thing is possible witin wikimedia. It may be that some form of escape code is required around the brackets of the inner template, to force the outer template to interpret them correctly. I'm not familiar with this area either, but there will be an example of this somewhere - If I find it, I'll let you know!


 * In BS2 (and BS3), there is, after the km option, two notes fields, and I'm sure it would be possible, should you want, to use one of these to display the co-ordinates. Regards, Lynbarn 09:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I know templates can call other templates. I tried adding a coord, for Hamstead, to a railway map at User:Pigsonthewing/scratchpad5, but that didn't work - please feel free to fix it if you can see where I went wrong. Andy Mabbett 11:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Given the length of the coordinates from the template, I think displaying them inside the main template for railways and stations would result in it looking too messy. For the larger templates relating to lines, adding coordinates to them would make them even bigger and messier. Also given that when viewing the template, adding coordinates to it would not benefit most readers, and would hinder the easy-to-read understand of it. Listing them in a separate table like in the canals article example may be a better idea.


 * However, given that the template may be used for things other than railways (which is what this seems to be about), if the template could be modified without affecting the look it has so far so that canals could have those coordinates added, that'd be fine too. I think Lynbarn's suggestion of just using one of the two notes fields would be best though. --Simmo676 10:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Simmo's remark above. Co-ordinates are liable to clutter a route template excessively, and are not easily read by most users. I do not see the problem with simply recording the co-ordinates of stations and notable features in the articles dedicated to those locations, rather than in the articles for the lines which pass them. And yes, to pick up Lynbarn's point - you can't fight in the war room! AlexTiefling 11:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "Co-ordinates are liable to clutter a route template excessively" Until we have chance to see how they appear, and in what context this might optionally be used, you can't know that. Listing the relevant coordinates for a line on one page, and using the Geo microformat to do so, will allow people to download them to, say, a GPS unit, or plot them on Google Earth, in one go. Also, not all of the points listed on route maps have corresponding articles. Andy Mabbett 11:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "given that the template may be used for things other than railways (which is what this seems to be about)" - No. It's about adding the coordinates of railway features. Andy Mabbett 11:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * My final word on this issue. I have recently started to use the strip maps.  I started out by modifying a couple, and have now started to create them. I shall not be adding coordinate data to any map that I produce, and if I see them on any maps, then I shall cease to contribute to this part of the project. The maps are getting to complex as they are, and do not need this additional information. I will give one concession (I am feeling generous today).  The maps were intended to fit on the page related to a particular line.  If the maps are going to start to expand, then fine, but they will no longer fit sensibly on an article page, and will need to have separate page (stub under the main article).  But if we go down this route, then lets agree what data to put on the maps.  Just as an aside, the Railway Track Diagrams (Quail Maps) do NOT contain this level of information, despite the fact that they show a greater level of detail that railway folk are interested in.  I know of no person who is involved with railways that has any need for coordinates of any kind (apart from ordance survey reference, which is better in my view). Hence I believe the information you wish to add to the maps to be more for your own interest rather than that the type of people that would use it or refer to it. Sheepcot 12:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * If we are going to have coordinates then can we discuss using Ordnance Survey References. At least these can be located by anyone using a Landranger map. By the way, Andy Mabbett has been reverting edits on this page. I guess the argument about coordinates has been won.Sheepcot 21:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Before we consider adding coordinates, can we please discuss what our priorities for map information are. We need a "pecking order". We need to agree what we should include and what should be excluded. Lets agree the data, then look at how it can be accommodated within the format of the map. If we cannot get this right, then we should just shut up shop and go home. ALECTRIC451 21:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well I'd say the most important pieces of information are the icon and the main descriptive label, with information such as (closed 'date') after if applicable. Other information such as mile/kilometre information would be next (which I'd guess is last, given that's all the items it's designed to hold?) priority. Coordinates replacing these would be the simplest decision, should it be decided to use them. As for the pecking order of items on the line, open stations would be top priority, then active main line brances, then rivers, motorways, closed stations and closed branches in no particular order. --Simmo676 23:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Can anyone assist with this, please? Andy Mabbett 17:34, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I have not seen any discussion on the reasons for having coordinates on the railway maps, and what the benefits are. If you added some explanation, then perhaps you might find a little better reaction. Miner2049er 07:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Consider (using a canal page as an example) being able to merge the two tables (and the map is a table) on Netherton Tunnel Branch Canal. I have railway maps where I'd like to try the same; if not on the article page then perhaps on a break-out page. Also, giving coordinates using coord (whether in the map table or elsewhere) generates hCard and/ or Geo microformats. The advantages of these are covered on their respective pages, and the microformat project page. Andy Mabbett 10:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Having looked at your example page, I'm not sure why the table of co-ordinates is useful, much less why considerably increasing the width of the map table to merge the other one into it would be worthwhile. The advantages you cite are all about compatibility with other formats. I just don't get why we should bother in the first place. AlexTiefling 14:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that co-ordinates belong on maps, rather than in site-specific articles. I see the route maps as being analogous to the London Underground map - schematic rather than strictly geographical. Adding co-ordinates would appear to widen the template and undermine the more purely schematic quality of the existing setup. AlexTiefling 10:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * - Once again: I'm asking for help to look at the possibility of adding coordinates as an optional attribute. Andy Mabbett 10:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I understand that. But like Miner2049er, I can't see the benefit of doing it even optionally, and I still think it would have a detrimental effect on the look and usability of the template for the readers on those maps where it does get used. AlexTiefling 10:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * All I asked for was the reasons for having coordinates on the railway maps, and what the benefits are. Can anyone state these, clearly and concisely.Miner2049er 13:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Coordinate-friendly map?
Check out the West Anglia Main Line ... a coordinate friendly map. -- Canterberry 23:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * We need to ensure that EVERY map has this information. The arguments presented for NOT having this information represent a backward ideology akin to "Luddite" thought. We MUST progress. Canterberry 23:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Exaggerate, much? There is no compulsion. Frankly, you have no business telling others what they 'MUST' do. As a skeptic regarding the usefulness of this data, I object to being branded a Luddite. Including things just because we can is not a plan I am keen to adopt. AlexTiefling 09:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * That map is the neatest presentation incorporating coords that I have seen. However, I am still not convinced that they are required, and like Alex, I object to being told they 'MUST' be included on all maps, or that failure to do so implies backwardness. Not really an approach likely to win over many critics, is it? -- EdJogg 10:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The co-ordinates (and for that matter the distances from London Liverpool Street) add almost nothing of value to this map (and hence to the article). As with the thinking behind the London underground map - what matters is which station is next and where you can switch to another service. There is a case for including average journey times between stations and perhaps it is also useful to know the junctions, rivers and major roads that you will pass if you use the service. All the co-ordinates do is stretch the map half-way across the screen and satisfy a geeky need to catalogue data. Meddlin&#39; Pedant 17:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

BSe version of BS2
Template:BSe gives me gray italic text. How do I get that effect for a BS2 map? --Tagishsimon (talk)


 * I think you'd have to either put the grey style manually into the notes parameter (see the coding for BSe for the style code) or produce a new template, BS2e, based on BS2 and BSe. I can have a go at this if you think it's required. – Tivedshambo (talk) 14:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * If gray italic can be set against individual rows, rather than the whole strip, then this would give greater flexibility. I have tried various ways of doing this (including style and tags)for an individual row in a copy of BS2, but just can't get it to work! If anyone gets it working, please let me know! Thanks, Lynbarn 22:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * In fact, BS2e exists on the German Wikipedia. But you can also use font tags and double quotes. HandigeHarry 17:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Complex tunnels
Is there a way to show complex underground routes (junctions, curves etc)? For example, the Wirral Line features an underground spur which travels in a circle (the "Liverpool Loop"). I've coloured it blue for now, but since solid blue indicates trams and light rail rather than underground heavy rail, is there a better way to show this sort of route? Laïka 19:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I always thought that blue was intended for tube lines and S for trams. HandigeHarry 20:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

New Maps ; Hastings Line
I have recently created a map for the line from Tonbridge to Hastings, and would welcome any feedback. With all the discussion about coordinates I have decided to cease any further work till this issue is decided on. It is pointless starting work on more maps when the whole issue of the information to be included is under debate. Sheepcot 21:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Reversions
Andy Mabbett has been reverting almost every comment on this page, so I intend to put a message on the discussion page of every editor for this page. This editor can then be judged and sentenced. Sheepcot 22:10, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Using LUECKE to indicate continuation
Any thoughts on using (LUECKE) to soften ends of lines where they continue on? e.g. Marlow Branch Line. Willkm 11:18, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I was thinking something similar. It'd look nicer for one thing. Given there's no horizontal one it makes it a bit harder to use (though that could easily be resolved with a new icon). Making them all horizontal though looks good, but it makes the template longer on the page.--Simmo676 13:21, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I could realy do with HLUECKE myself - can anyone oblige, please? It's a little beyond my SVG-skillz. AlexTiefling 16:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

UK Waterways WikiProject
Things have gone too far now. The Waterways Tag is larger than the railways tag, and above it, on a page titled "Railway line template". The person that added this tag obviously has no knowledge of collaboration, this is a hi-jack.Sheepcot 13:47, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Your unwarranted personal attack aside, please feel free to amend the waterways project template so that it tales a "small" attribute setting, like the railway one. In the absence of such a setting, I put the UKW template first because it seemed a better fit than putting a horizontal template after a square-ish one. Andy Mabbett 14:14, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Weird glitch on template
For some reason, on the Manchester-Sheffield-Wath electric railway diagram, on FireFox clicking on a link, instead of taking you to a page, causes the template to break apart at any place with a long placename, while these places are broken by default on Internet Explorer. How can this be fixed? Laïka 16:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You could try using shiorter descriptions, or replacing all spaces with  in any long descriptions - this will make the box wider, but all the descriptions will be on one line only. Hope that helps, Lynbarn 16:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I have gone into this one and force Manchester London Road onto one line and split some of the longer descriptions over two lines. (Using IE7) --Stewart 17:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, thanks! Laïka  19:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Waterways icons - split?
With the ever expanding Waterways project and designs of icons, isn't about time this split off and created say Waterways template? Simply south 22:46, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Why? They're exactly the same template(s), just using different icons. Andy Mabbett 22:48, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * ...because they can then have their own set of instructions, incorporating a table of the appropriate waterways icons to use. It should still be possible to reuse the templates though.
 * EdJogg 23:19, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * ... perhaps the same reasons for there being separate versions in the German wikipedia for rail and motorway systems. Lynbarn 09:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Then how do we discuss changes which might effect both uses? Andy Mabbett 23:27, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Discussion could still be carried out here, but we need a seperate legend for the waterways template: for example, on this page, Image:BSicon UKRZo.svg refers to a railway passing over a metro line, while for waterways, it shows a canal passing under a railway. Having both on the same page would be too confusing. Laïka  11:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding the legend link, the waterways templates could use a modified version of Template:BS-table (which contains the legend link), called say WW-table, and in that it would just link to their version of the legend, probably as a subpage of their main page listing all the icons available to use, like here with the railway legend and icons page.


 * While both groups want to use the same BS series templates in their same format it makes sense not to duplicate that template. If one of us wants to add a modification the other one doesn't want though it seems inevitable there'd have to be a split. --Simmo676 10:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I included them in Spoorstrip.exe. There is no reason to separate them from the railway templates. You only make things more complicated. HandigeHarry 09:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the waterways icons are excellent. (I'm a lot less sure about the 'metro within rail line' and double-rail-line icons, for what it's worth.) I think each group should be free to discuss its own specific icons on separate pages, but there's no reason to divorce the two map projects completely - each part can benefit from being part of a larger whole. AlexTiefling 10:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Or how about then renaming this page? Simply south 15:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Wide strips
I have created two new templates - and  - which work in the same way as  and , allowing extra columns to be included. This ties in with spoorstrip.exe, which allows up to five symbols on each row to be generated automatically.

Hope these prove useful, for both railway and canal diagrams. Regards, Lynbarn 11:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow, those should prove very useful! However, I've noticed the small text in the example (e.g. "(for Argyle Line and North Clyde Line)") has the top of the text cut off. --Simmo676 12:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Simmo676, do you get the same effect on other examples, such as the original version of Glasgow_Subway? Regards, Lynbarn 13:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Nope, I don't get it on the original version. --Simmo676 13:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Another small problem: the top left corner of a capital 'W' is missing (see "West Street"). This is a generic problem, as it affects the existing templates too – a fact that became all too apparent one evening when I was dealing with stations of the Woking to Waterloo via Weybridge service (South Western Main Line), adding Worplesdon to the Portsmouth Direct Line, and Wanborough on the North Downs Line :o).
 * EdJogg 12:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Woops! (Sorry EdJogg! ;) I have noticed the "W" problem, but not the Argyle issue, previously on other pages using various of these templates, but I don't see either of them on my example at present - I also get white space between each image on occasions, and think all these may be due to individual browser text size settings etc. A full solution may require re-coding the templates - perhaps varying the image size depending on font size? - to cover all eventualities. Regards, Lynbarn 13:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for creating them – I've put BS5 into use on the North Western Railway (fictional) page (Sodor Railways!), modifying someone else's original to allow the branch lines to be shown on the correct sides of the main line.
 * Incidentally, when you're happy with them, you ought to add appropriate references on the template documentation page.
 * EdJogg 14:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

New icons please?
Could somebody with the appropriate software, skills, and artistic flair please produce some new icons for me? They are horizontal versions of line start/end terminus, both current and closed. the codes are ( I think:) hKBFa, hKBFe, hKBFaex, and hKBFeex.

I tried downloading the existing equivalents, and rotating them on my PC, but that didn't work! Many thanks, Lynbarn 14:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Purpose of the route maps
As the 'German' railway line template is starting to get more popular and used on many UK rail related topics, I think perhaps it's time for us all to sit back and take stock for a moment - and think about what we are trying to achieve with these maps. Who are they for?

User:Concrete Cowboy has questioned the usefulness of the current version of Template:East Coast Main Line. As more and more detail has been added to it, it's become too big and swamps every page the template is transcluded on. Much as I am personally fond of Hornsey railway station, does it really justify inclusion on the main ECML route map? Perhaps it should be restricted to a map detailing First Capital Connect services or the Great Northern route only.

Look at the current map for the Northern City Line. It's not going to make sense for the average Wikipedian. Including part of the Thameslink route adds nothing - and use of the S-Bahn logo is extremely confusing. All this route requires is a fairly simple straight line diagram.

The map accompanying the Watford DC Line page is nothing short of a work of art. I mean that. It's very impressive. But it's far too complicated for the article, with way too much detail. It even includes the AC lines out of Euston.

Those of us with an interest in railways will appreciate the extra detail in some of these maps. But the average Wikipedian will probably expect to see something simpler, more like a route diagram that you would see on board a train.

So who are the maps for? I'd be interested in your views. DrFrench 21:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the best thing might be to use simpler maps on articles and link to more complex maps (possibly with coordinates!) for these who want to see them. Likewise, articles Hornsey could have a map showing local services, with continuing arrows, top and bottom, for "ECML" (like the "WCML " links on the map on Chase Line), and links to the ECML page. the later could have a map showing main ECML stations, and a link to a page, with the whole ECML map, centered, on its own page. Andy Mabbett 21:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * As I've explained above, I feel that pages describing long routes like the ECML should only show the 'headline' information - the stops that intercity trains stop at, and the major interchanges with other long-distance routes. For something like the Watford DC line, much more detail is appropriate. A well-written encyclopedia should have articles which are accessible on several levels. I would hope that railfans could use the Wikipedia articles for reference, but I would also hope that a non-specialist user would be able to identify the key information without undue effort. AlexTiefling 21:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Andy and Alex in that the mainline articles really would get swamped if, as for smaller lines such as the Tees Valley Line, Esk Valley Line, etc., every branch and station (open and closed) is included. So, trimmed down versions would be more appropriate, with the full version on another page. The Watford DC Line's template doesn't seem bad to me (it could have a few lines removed that seem to curve for no apparant reason or just be empty straights). The article itself is rather long, and the line illustrates all the information that could be wanted (bar coordinates, but that's another discussion). --Simmo676 21:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Watford DC Line might benefit from the new 'BS4' and 'BS5' templates? (EdJogg)
 * I think it might well. I'll give it a go. AlexTiefling 08:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Done - the map looks a lot clearer now. I pulled out a few unlabelled bridges and redundant straights at the same time, so the template is shorter overall as well. AlexTiefling 09:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The ECML is an extreme case, which needs special handling. The GW mainline has been split into a number of separate chunks, consistent with the way the lines developed, and each of these shows a reasonable level of detail.  Articles should not really end up with a route map that just looks like a string of pearls, as that is no great improvement on the list of stations which has been prevalent up to now.  I'm sure that simplified diagrams showing just the relevant stations are already available at various TOC sites.  WP is supposed to be for more than travel information, and these route maps provide an excellent means of putting everything in context – which means showing all the interconnecting lines on a route, thus allowing a reader to wander round the railway map, should he so desire.  If the line articles contain no history, then they are again little more than travel guides – the route maps provide a simple way of showing how former (or future) stations, etc, fit in (again context). --EdJogg 00:00, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Watford DC Line, SEML, Chatham Main Line and Brighton Main Line are examples (of me mainly!) the full potential of WP:TRAIL be utilised, which i think is good for that line's page. For the WCML, ECML, MML, etc where the template with the WP:TRAIL table is transcluded into all the stations on the line it is however inappropriate. As per the suggestion above, i believe we should have (for example) the template ECML version of WP:TRAIL, with the "intercity" stops and on ECML page with its own WP:TRAIL with all stations, branches, past and present, etc on (like the Watford DC line). Pickle 03:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This has now been done for the ECML. DrFrench 12:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Legend
A number of maps - e.g. Watford DC Line - have features which do not appear on the Legend. That needs attention. --Tagishsimon (talk)
 * I agree Pickle 03:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed, but with hundreds of symbols now in existance, and more being developed (especially for UK waterways) for different purposes all the time, and even the german railway original still being "experimental", a single legend page to cover all eventualities will be very cumbersome, and difficult to follow.
 * If there was some way to generate a legend dynamically from the symbols used in a particular map, although I imagine this would require each symbol to have a category and description assigned to it to make sense, A challenge for the likes of Harry, the author of the Spoorstrip map generator program, perhaps? Regards, Lynbarn 16:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Image:BSicon AKRZu.svg
Is it me or has the motorway bit turned yellow ??? Pickle 03:40, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not just you. I presume that the Germans are still experimenting. It's red and yellow right now - which would be great for 'A' roads. I wonder if, once they've settled on a colour, we could ask for a pale blue version for UK motorways? AlexTiefling 08:40, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't [think] red and yellow is right for A-roads... should be either green or red. Yellow has no place on a UK road map :-) Tom pw (talk) 16:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "Yellow has no place on a UK road map"...except for the myriad 'B'-roads on OS maps, and perhaps the font colour on (green) trunk road signposts??? -- :o) -- EdJogg 21:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Feel free to borrow/ adapt uAKRZu2. Andy Mabbett 17:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Now the motorway is skinnier, too! I guess the original designer wasn't kidding when he said they were experimental... AlexTiefling 16:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

German BSkm template, and BS template "HI" option
The German originals of these two facilities seem to work differently - they use a CSS class "prettytable" as the first option within the table and class "hintergrundfarbe7" (background colour 7 - pink) to highlight the distance column on certain rows, for example. What en. alternatives are there to enable thses functions? Thanks. Lynbarn 22:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

BS5
By using this, as i have noticed on Template:Brighton Main Line, the writing is slightly degraded. Simply south 11:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you mean the text (as noted in the discussion above), or the quality of the descriptive labels? AlexTiefling 12:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is an example. Simply south 12:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The 'From Shepperton...' line, for example? This is a known issue with the wider template - see 'Wide strips' above. AlexTiefling 12:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

..and the same using BS3, Lynbarn 12:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Now you see it...

..now you don't!!!!

I have edited BS5 (and BS4) to remove "'line-height': 80%'" which just might have something to do with it. :o) There are some other small differences between the 'right hand side' of BS3 and BS5, but that needs expert examination to determine if there's a potential problem.

Now I'll get back to debugging mobile phone software...

EdJogg 13:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you! AlexTiefling 14:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)::..


 * - except that numbers for mileage, when used in the correct column, now appear at full size, rather than 80% as I believe was originally intended, and as is the case with the German version, and BS/BSe/BS2/BS3 I think the original problem occurs when not enough bars are applied to seperate the fields in a row including empty images, placing descriptive text in the field intended for mileage, which the Germans had intended to be smaller. I'm not sure about this, so I will need to check later.  Regards,  Lynbarn 16:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

As I mentioned, there are some inconsistencies between BS4/BS5 and BS/BS2/BS3. If you carefully look for these you should be able to adjust them all to make them work. However, I would be surprised if 'line height' was required anywhere – it should be sufficient to use a smaller font. --EdJogg 16:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Motorway symbols
I've copied the original motorway symbols, as I believe blue is more widely understood than red/yellow, at least in the UK. I've saved them on commons as Image:BSicon AKRZ-UKo.svg and Image:BSicon AKRZ-UKu.svg. See Template:Birmingham Cross-City Line for an example of them in use. – Tivedshambo (talk) 23:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I thought red-yellow-red was a universal standard, and I really like it. But if you feel more comfortable with blue-blue, feel free to do so. I'll include both in Spoorstrip.exe. It is even possible to automatically change each event of AKRZ into AKRZ-UK, if you just edit the file W-English.txt.


 * I included all waterway icons as well. HandigeHarry 21:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

What are the reasons for having coordinates on the maps and the benefits?
I have asked twice (see above) for someone/anyone to set out the reasons for having coordinates on the maps and what the benefits are? So far I note that there has been no response, especially by the editors that seem keen to have them. I re-open the debat here. Miner2049er 09:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * This was originally requested for possible use with these templates when used for UK waterways. There is further discussion about this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK_Waterways/Coordinates + microformats. Regards, Lynbarn 11:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "I note that there has been no response" Not true - you were answered on this page, date-stamp 10:29, 16 April 2007. Andy Mabbett 12:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

"Real Example"?
I don't think that the 'real example' that has been added is a particularly good one. The 'fictitious' example it replaced showed the potential for the template more effectively, and displayed the working code more clearly. Agreed an English replacement was a good idea, but there are numerous examples from the southern half of England that would do a better job. (Cornish Main Line or North London Line anyone?)

EdJogg 08:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed with that, although maybe cut a fair bit out of them as they are rather long, but they showcase a lot more symbols and features of the template than the current one. --Simmo676 08:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * How about the Plymouth to Saltash section of the Cornish Main Line as a good example? AlexTiefling 11:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Gets my vote! -- EdJogg 11:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Real or fictitious, the example should at least give examples of all the fields being used, such as the mileage display. Regards, Lynbarn 11:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Route maps as templates
A number of the Route Maps have been split off to become separate templates, and I'd like to ask three questions about them:

(1) I can see the benefit of templatising (new word!) where the map might be used on more than one page, and it also removes 'arcane code' which might dissuade novice editors from contributing, however it prevents editors from seeing changes to pages on their watchlists arising from route-map edits. Should templatising be regarded as 'policy' for these route-maps, or should they be normally embedded? I think a project policy needs to be determined concerning their use in template form.

(2) Could somone please create a sub-template for the routemaps similar to the 'v.d.e.' that is shown on many navi-boxes? At present it is not possible to see whether the map is templated (another new word?) or embedded, and if the former, it takes many more steps to open it for editing.

(3) Has a category been created for railway route map templates? (If so, it makes sense for them to exist 'by country' from the outset...) Another useful addition would be a sub-template to include the necessary category code. (Incidentally, an equivalent category has been created for canal route maps: Category:Templates for UK Waterways, although I am not convinced that the name nor the hierarchy is correct.)


 * To part answer this -- I couldn't see one yet, and the canal hierarchy is definitely wrong. I'll try to tackle both later...
 * EdJogg 09:08, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

EdJogg 08:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "it prevents editors from seeing changes to pages on their watchlists arising from route-map edits" - users can add the map templates to their watch-lists. Andy Mabbett 09:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course they can. I was 'taking this as read'. The problem is that once a map is moved to a template, the user will not see further changes until he has hunted-down the template (see (2) above) and added it to his watchlist. I was merely highlighting this as a disadvantage of template conversion.
 * EdJogg 09:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, they may not want to be informed of every change to the template, if they are more concerned with the text of the article. I have no problems with templates, particularly for larger diagrams. It does remove many lines of unintelligible code from the beginning of articles. – Tivedshambo (talk) 09:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've put some templates in Category:UK railway maps. Template:Manchester-Sheffield-Wath electric railway diagram has an edit facility, but when I tried adding it to some other templates, I found it was causing some text to wrap, having the undesired effect of creating gaps between the icons. – Tivedshambo (talk) 09:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * That template uses ed right which is not recommended for tables, although they show a workaround. That might be the cause of the odd display, perhaps? EdJogg 13:55, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've created BS template, a template which can be added to the top of talk pages of articles using a railway line template. See example below. I'll add these to relevant articles in due course. – Tivedshambo (talk) 13:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * gives

Routemap template category
...Meanwhile, I have been working on the canal routemap templates. The following was written for the UK waterways project routemap template talk page, but much applies to railway routemaps too...


 * I discovered that template categories should belong together, hence I have created the following hierarchy under<BR>:
 * This last one has not been created yet since that could be seen as over-categorisation at this stage. However, it is expected to be needed, so, with that in mind, I have created the sub-template UK-waterway-routemap.  When added to the bottom of a routemap template (as shown below) this will add the appropriate template category and some generic instructions about the routemap (yet to be written, but could usefully include a link to the page listing the icons).
 * This last one has not been created yet since that could be seen as over-categorisation at this stage. However, it is expected to be needed, so, with that in mind, I have created the sub-template UK-waterway-routemap.  When added to the bottom of a routemap template (as shown below) this will add the appropriate template category and some generic instructions about the routemap (yet to be written, but could usefully include a link to the page listing the icons).
 * This last one has not been created yet since that could be seen as over-categorisation at this stage. However, it is expected to be needed, so, with that in mind, I have created the sub-template UK-waterway-routemap.  When added to the bottom of a routemap template (as shown below) this will add the appropriate template category and some generic instructions about the routemap (yet to be written, but could usefully include a link to the page listing the icons).
 * This last one has not been created yet since that could be seen as over-categorisation at this stage. However, it is expected to be needed, so, with that in mind, I have created the sub-template UK-waterway-routemap.  When added to the bottom of a routemap template (as shown below) this will add the appropriate template category and some generic instructions about the routemap (yet to be written, but could usefully include a link to the page listing the icons).


 * By using a sub-template, it is an easy matter to move all the routemaps to a UK-specific sub-cat in the future, in a single hit.


 * Add following code to end of templated routemap:

Now I would recommend that the existing railway routemap templates should be moved from to a new template-specific category under the existing railway template hierarchy. This then removes them from the article namespace.

EdJogg 13:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've created Category:Rail routemap templates to put these templates in, and template:UK-railway-routemap to add to the template pages as above. Still experimenting a bit, so feel free to adapt as required. – Tivedshambo (talk) 20:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've now sub-categorised as follows:


 * (already in existence)
 * (Irish-railway-routemap can be used for these)
 * (already in existence)
 * (Irish-railway-routemap can be used for these)
 * (Irish-railway-routemap can be used for these)


 * All templates (including a couple of American ones which I haven't sub-categorised) should have categories. – Tivedshambo (talk) 11:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

When is extra 'colspan' needed?
I have noticed that some maps include the following additional text on the same line (usually) as BS-table: |colspan="3"|

Since BS-table already includes |colspan=" 2 "|, when do we need to add the additional text, or is it, in fact, always superfluous?

EdJogg 09:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know of any reason - can you supply an example? – Tivedshambo (talk) 20:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've used a colspan 7 in User:Lynbarn/Sandbox/L&BRouteMap to add a footer across the full width of the table - take it out and the footer spans the first half of the table only. Regards, Lynbarn 20:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I've hunted around, and only found it on South Western Main Line and Slough to Windsor & Eton Line (though there may well be others). In both cases I have removed the offending text with no obvious adverse effects! Presumably a cut-and-paste issue...

EdJogg 23:35, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

S-Bahn/LUL etc. Symbols
The S-Bahn symbols are a bit inappropriate for the purpose they're being used for on the maps - are there copyright issues with using some form of the LUL symbol? The S-Bahn symbol is going to mean nothing to most English-speaking people, and strictly the Underground wouldn't be an S-Bahn anyway, but rather a U-Bahn. I wouldn't suggest a direct replacement though, as the S-Bahn symbol is also being used, for example, for the Glasgow Underground on SPT lines. Willkm 13:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, the LT roundel IS copyright-protected – fiercely! A week-or-so back, I had a quick look-around for alternatives, but even WikiProject London Transport don't have anything small enough for our purposes. (They have some useful icons, but they make no sense when reduced in size.)


 * What we probably could get away with is a pseudo-symbol, for instance: one of the freight depot icons (large open circle) with a blue rectangular bar across the middle. If the bar did not extend outside the outer edge of the red circle, it would not be a copy of the LT symbol, so we ought to be OK.


 * Failing that, some form of 'concentric circle' -type thing would be more obvious, perhaps.


 * EdJogg 13:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I totally agree with Willkm]. The S-Bahn logo is not appropriate for use, teh average English-language Wikipedian will have no clue what they are mean to mean.  It would be better to use the BHF icon (i.e. have no special icon) rather than use a misleading and confusing one.  Don;t forget that you don't need to include an icon on or immediately next tot he track map  - see [[North TransPennine for an example of an airport icon, which is put in the final notes field of the template.  If the consensus is that it is vitally important to indicate an LUL interchange (and I don't think it is necessary in all cases), then inclusing a made-up icon in this field will help reduce the 'line clutter'.  DrFrench 16:03, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Replace the "S" with a "U" (for Underground) and we might be on our way. At least this means a very simple change to the existing icons, which I am sure someone can quite quickly. By the way, we clearly need to keep the existing "S" ones, what I meant was replicate the "S" icons, but with a "U" and create a new subset.Canterberry 16:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I really don't see this clear need for an S or a U icon. Perhaps you could explain why having a suitable symbol in the notes field (as used for Manchester Airport in the TransPennine articles) is not acceptable?  DrFrench 11:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It is a matter of preference not of need. That said, my preference would by to standardise and use icons like BOOT, FLUG and (presumably) LUL and BR (i.e. the old BR logo, used on a tube map to indicate an interchange with a mainline station) in the Notes for the line rather than inline. This seems to me to be what TFL does for its maps. --Tagishsimon (talk)


 * Just had a thought. Could someone draw up a simple black silhouette icon featuring (say) the driving cab of a 1938 tube stock train? This would (hopefully) be clearly recognisable as an undergound train, and could be used following the station name, rather than as a map icon. A legend could be added at the bottom of the map to highlight the meaning of the icon, if required.
 * EdJogg 12:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. In fact, I would like to see interchange to lines not shown on the diagram itself to be standardised in this way. If the only connections at a station are to lines (surface or tube) which are already on the diagram, I'm not sure we need a symbol as well. AlexTiefling 12:15, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * If anyone has the skills to design a tube icon as per EdJogg's request, a good starting point might be the .SVG AIGA symbols on the Commons. DrFrench 12:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Policy page on Commons
I've just seen this policy page on Wikimedia Commons. It seems to be adapted freely from the German page, and does not seem to reflect the way in which the symbols are used in practice by either the English or the Dutch Wikipedias. It also contradicts itself internally, stating in one place that separated but adjacent lines should use a single column, and in another place that experimental symbols (such as all the ones showing two lines in one column) should not be used on active pages yet at all. Does anyone here have any thoughts about how this page could be developed, in appropriate consultation with the seemingly much more cautious German and more ambitious Dutch projects? AlexTiefling 12:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I advise against certain symbols, for example when the name is inconsistent or when a similar symbol already exists. However, the Germans seem to make everything experimental, even the icons which were made by others. I do not object against using the experimental symbols. Once they are in use, they are unnlikely to be deleted. HandigeHarry 16:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)