Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds/Archive 46

Alpine Chough
I'm thinking of taking this to FAC shortly, needs FA get the Chough Good Topic uprated to Featured Topic. Any comments, improvements etc would be welcome  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * About time :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:08, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Will New World vultures or choughs be the first FT about birds? Snowman (talk) 10:32, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Cockatoo now at GAN
'nuff said. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:02, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Alpine Chough now at FAC
It's like London buses - you wait for ages, and they all come at once  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  13:17, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I recall the 266 and 207 (?) near me in Shepherd's Bush being particularly erratic. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:40, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Juvenile Eastern Rosella
File:Platycercus eximius diemenensis juvinile.jpg: Juvenile. Could someone with a better book than me put some better information about this fellow in the article? http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2199/img2109o.jpg is a (poorly composed) comparative image with it next to an adult. Noodle snacks (talk) 08:28, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My book does not mention the juveniles of this subspecies specifically. I have added a general comment about the juveniles of the species. I think it would be worth showing images of the mainland subspecies in the article as well. Snowman (talk) 10:02, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Re File:Platycercus eximius diemenensis.jpg - How was this identified as a male - mentioned in the caption on the species article? Snowman (talk) 13:54, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Mistake left over from an old caption. Fixed now. Noodle snacks (talk) 11:18, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * How was the juvenile identified? Presumably juveniles are rather similar to females. Snowman (talk) 15:32, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * See the image of it standing next to an adult linked to just above. It is considerably paler than any adults I have seen. It also seemed to be begging for food from the adult (don't know if there is any merit in that observation). Noodle snacks (talk) 09:27, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I was hoping you did see it interacting with the adults - I think it would to helpful if you added your observations to the image description on commons. Sometimes a male parrot might supply food to the female. One would think that a bird begging for food might be a young juvenile. Did you hear producer calls? The illustration in Foreshaw (2006) of the juvenile shows green on occiput and nape of neck (like your photograph), but there is nothing in the text about the colours there. Snowman (talk) 10:05, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

6 archaeopteryges on display in Munich these weeks
Among them is what I presume to be "Chicken Wing" (of which we have no pic yet). See here for more. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 11:20, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Merger proposals
I have proposed Emu attacks in Australia to be merged into Emu, discuss at Talk:Emu. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:54, 25 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I held off proposing Magpie attacks in Australia be merged back into Australian Magpie, but the removal of text did (I feel) changed the meaning of segments of text in the swooping section in the parent article, so I have reverted the subtraction back. There is a whole book on the subject of magpie attacks (and many studies), so the daughter article could feasibly be expanded. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:22, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Birds for identification (43)

 * 430. File:Pteroglossus torquatus -Mexico-8.jpg to confirm identification. Snowman (talk) 09:10, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Confirmed. It looks exactly like the picture in Howell and Webb, who say this species is "unmistakable", and there's only one aracari in Mexico.  In fact, according to them, there's only one subspecies in Mexico, P. t. torquatus. &mdash;JerryFriedman  (Talk) 14:44, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you. It is probably enough to say that it is from Mexico in the commons image description. (I am assuming the flickr sets are correct). Does it look like that subspecies? Snowman (talk) 15:34, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't have any sources on how to tell the subspecies apart. It does look a lot like the picture of the nominate subspecies in H&W.  (I was exaggerating when I said "exactly".) &mdash;JerryFriedman  (Talk) 22:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I will jump in here though it is likely detrimental in this case. There have been quite a few "races" erected, described, relumped, and so on for this species.  On gross morphology, especially the appearance of the so-called "tomial teeth" visible on the upper mandible, this would appear to be a bird from somewhere on the Yucatan Penin.  The user does have a photo of the beaches of Cozumel Island, and it might be desumed that the bird was shot during this trip.  One of the races that usually stands muster beyond all the relumping with the nominate that sometimes goes on, would be the race in this zone.  The race in this zone is erythrozonus.  To note, however, that this photo is grossly oversaturated making the mantle and wings appear black, which they are not.  I also retain that the center pectoral spot has an enlarged appearance (the pectoral spot in this race is usually reduced compared with the nominate) because of the saturation.Steve Pryor (talk) 17:21, 18 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 431. Hornbill probably at Kuala Kumpur Bird Park. Snowman (talk) 18:44, 18 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 432. File:Rhyticeros subruficollis -Diergaarde Blijdorp -flying-8a.jpg. To confirm identification. Several hornbills look similar. Snowman (talk) 15:54, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, the species is confirmed. This may have caused some difficulty because of the absence of the casque.  This is a juvenile bird of indeterminate sex.Steve Pryor (talk) 16:23, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * First image of a Plain-pouched Hornbill on the wiki. "juvenile" added to image description without implying corroboration. Snowman (talk) 19:07, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 433. Owl with long legs. Snowman (talk) 15:59, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It is a Burrowing Owl. Speotyto, or Athene cunicularia.Steve Pryor (talk) 16:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Burrowing Owl uploaded to File:Athene cunicularia -Diergaarde Blijdorp-8a.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 19:07, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 434. File:Cockatoo baby.jpg for identification. Snowman (talk) 10:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Cockatiel chick. Rename under way to File:Nymphicus hollandicus -chick -held in hand-8a.jpg. Snowman (talk) 16:32, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 435. Blue bird probably at San Diego Zoo. Snowman (talk) 18:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Tangara mexicana brasiliensis - a young adult. The race is important here since of the five or so generally accepted races of this bird, this is the only one that is ventrally white, rather than yellow (and because of this some have proposed this as a potential split though I think that the proposition has not taken).  Ranges naturally in the Brazilian Mata Atlantica (coastal forest of SE Brazil).Steve Pryor (talk) 08:05, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Damn, I saw this species in Feb and failed to recognise its photo!  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  09:45, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Jim, don't worry about it! I am advantaged only because I have vetted photos for ID for more than 15 years.  A lot of these, including this one, I could ID in my sleep.  It is just practise, and rote memory and nothing more. By the way, I noticed you got down to Serra dos Órgãos.  Did you manage to see the locale's star bird, T. condita?Steve Pryor (talk) 10:37, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to File:Tangara mexicana -San Diego Zoo-8a.jpg on commons without implying corroboration. Snowman (talk) 16:31, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid not Steve, we did get Black-and-gold though, another good bird  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:16, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The subspecies is Tangara m. mexicana. They're never this white-bellied in the wild (even if pretty close – any bird with parts of its colours based on carotenoids should be assumed to be paler in captivity), but the relatively bright blue overall, the turquoise primary edging (clearly more turquoise than the main blue in its plumage), and the lack of extensive pale blue to the "shoulder" exclude T. (m.) brasiliensis. 212.10.93.241 (talk) 04:40, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Are captive birds paler owning to diet or lack of sunlight? Snowman (talk) 08:54, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Snow, I am not yet convinced for various reasons. I have moved to entable further discussion in this sense.  He may be right, however, I have misgivings on both major points that have been made.  In other words, I have to convince myself that some of the plumage differences imputed can not be due to the developmental stage of this bird, and therefore distancing themselves slightly from the full adult normomorph, and I also contest the affermation that wild birds are never this white ventrally.Steve Pryor (talk) 11:12, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Awaiting further discussion. Snowman (talk) 11:23, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * These are taxa I have seen hundreds of times, if not more. So, while I understand the confusion, this is a standard nominate, except for the paler belly commonly seen in the captives. Furthermore, note that this is a full adult; just fluffing itself up a bit to reveal more of the flanks. Juveniles, as is standard for most, if not all, Tangara spp, are duller with less contrasting patterns than adults (indeed, this is one of the reasons why records of the rarely seen Dotted Tanager *always* should be double-checked, especially if made by people with limited Neotropical experiance). In other words, non-adult T. (m.) brasiliensis are even more different from this bird than the adults, and regardless of age the features mentioned in the last post always work (except in chicks, of course). ISIS supports T. m. mexicana for San Diego Zoo, too. Finally, my comment on the belly ("They're never this white-bellied in the wild") in the previous post was about T. m. mexicana and the photo linked directly after that is from Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil (it should be noted that the colour of the belly is rather variable in the Manaus region, as several subspecies come into contact there; I'll here disregard the claim by some of recognizing ssp. lateralis). Other photos showing the typical cream belly in wild T. m. mexicana can be seen here (French Guiana) and here (Amapá, Brazil). The far away T. (m.) brasiliensis is, of course, always white-bellied, as can also be seen on the numerous photos linked in the last part of my previous comment. 212.10.83.114 (talk) 12:12, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I would be interesting to known if it is the diet, lack or sunlight, or something else that causes captive ones to be pale. Snowman (talk) 16:51, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Mainly diet. Excess sunlight, while unlikely to play any significant part in the species discussed here, can have an effect too (cf. Cissa). 212.10.83.114 (talk) 18:04, 24 October 2009 (UTC)


 * On another topic; the Mealy Amazon lives around the Caribbean Sea area and a separate population exists in the Amazon Basin, although it has much larger ranges than the ranges of Amazona autumnalis. I was discussing with someone with an IP number that also began with 212.10 about the A. a. diadema, excuse me if this is someone else. Snowman (talk) 16:51, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Many species, incl. several parrots, have both cis- and trans-Andean populations. That is quite common. But this is quite different from the completely unique situation for A. aumnalis with its main trans-Andean population and an isolated population in the central Amazon without interconnecting population to the north/west. Anyhow, I already covered this in some depth earlier, and while I understand the questions you asked in the end of that discussion, answers were already covered in my earlier comments, incl. why the theories you suggested, while interesting, are incorrect, or at least unlikely and unsupported by current knowledge (and the Asian-Galápagos example is comparable, as this is about biogeography, which is far more complex than just distance). 212.10.83.114 (talk) 18:04, 24 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 436. Vulture flying. Looks like an Old World vulture. Snowman (talk)
 * Griffon Vulture Gyps fulvus  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  07:19, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to File:Gyps fulvus -ZooParc de Beauval -flying-8a.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 11:58, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 437. Dove for identification probably at National Aquarium, Baltimore. Snowman (talk) 16:24, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Chalcophaps indica. Male bird.Steve Pryor (talk) 17:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Emerald Dove uploaded to File:Chalcophaps indica -National Aquarium -Baltimore-8a.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 17:54, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 438. File:Chauna chavaria -Diergaarde Blijdorp -head-8a.jpg. I think this might be wrong. Snowman (talk) 13:43, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Chauna torquata.Steve Pryor (talk) 17:58, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Bad name file listed for deletion and Southern Screamer re-uploaded to File:Chauna torquata -Diergaarde Blijdorp -head-8a.jpg on commons. Image shown on species page. Snowman (talk) 20:52, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 439. Hornbills probably at Cincinnati Zoo. Snowman (talk) 09:07, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Snow, the one to the right is surely an adult male Ceratogymna atrata. For the other one, for lack of good descriptions, I will have to make an educated guess.  If the bill were horn-colored, then I might think it a female of the same species, however, the bill is obviously black, and the casque may be too massive for what could be expected of the female of the species, therefore, I would tend to view the bird on the left as some developmental stage of a male of this same species, not juvenile, but, not adult.Steve Pryor (talk) 09:23, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Amendation to the above comment. Snow, I usually use multiple sources.  In the above comment, I had checked only the HBW.  I went back and checked another couple of sources, notably Ryan's Birds of Africa, South of the Sahara, and on the basis of these other sources, I will amend my analysis of the bird on the left, to an adult female Ceratogymna atrata.  Apparently, a paired couple of the same species.Steve Pryor (talk) 09:31, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Black-casqued Hornbill uploaded to File:Ceratogymna atrata -Cincinnati Zoo -pair-8a.jpg on commons. First photograph on the wiki replaces an illustration in the infobox on the species page. Snowman (talk) 09:52, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Nice photos of a budgie plague...
Some of these photos would be really cool....Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:08, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * ...for a new article:- "Budgie attacks in Australia" ;) --Melburnian (talk) 23:23, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * After seeing the size of those wild flocks, you can sort of understand why lone pet budgies can be a little bit twitchy and neurotic sometimes, can't you? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 23:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you unlink "Budgie attacks in Australia" Some people look for redlinks to make new pages - three are (or were) tooks to search for popular redlinks. Snowman (talk) 12:59, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I have unlinked wikilink without changing meaning. This is just in case the red link might cause confusion. Snowman (talk) 16:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Birds for identification (44)

 * 440. small bird to confirm identification. Snowman (talk) 09:42, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * As titled  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  10:49, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Northern Mockingbird uploaded to File:Mimus polyglottos -wings and back-8.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 13:05, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 441. File:Pyrrhura molinae -Kuala Lumpur Bird Park-8a.jpg to confirm identification. Snowman (talk) 11:05, 24 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 442. Blue bird for identification. Snowman (talk) 21:57, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * A female Irena puella, which population ? Shyamal (talk) 05:45, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Asian Fairy-bluebird uploaded to File:Irena puella -Kuala Lumpur Bird Park -female-6a.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 14:15, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 443. Kingfisher probably at San Diego Zoo. Snowman (talk) 14:27, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Male Micronesian Kingfisher Todiramphus cinnamominus (synonym Halcyon cinnamominus) of nominate ssp cinnamominus. Only the male has completely rufous underparts, and the other ssp pelewensis has white underparts and neck in both sexes  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  17:07, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to File:Todiramphus cinnamominus -San Diego Zoo-male-8a.jpg on commons. Unfortunately, the tip of the tail is not included in this good resolution photograph, but the wiki has two other photographs of individuals at two other USA zoos. Snowman (talk) 21:05, 26 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 444. Small green Arini to confirm identification. Snowman (talk) 09:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 445. Blue and black bird in zoo. Snowman (talk) 15:26, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Asian Fairy-bluebird, Irena puella,  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  16:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to File:Irena puella -Tiergarten Schönbrunn-8a.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 23:58, 28 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 446. File:Anthracoceros albirostris -Kuala Lumpur Bird Park -upper body-8a.jpg to confirm identification. Male or female? Snowman (talk) 23:07, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 447. Eagle or hawk to confirm identification. Snowman (talk) 23:38, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks OK for Changeable Hawk-eagle (Nisaetus cirrhatus) to me <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:46, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to File:Nisaetus cirrhatus -Kuala Lumpur Bird Park-8a.jpg on commons without implying corroboration. Snowman (talk) 11:16, 31 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 448. File:Motacilla alba -perching on reeds-8.jpg Probably a White Wagtail to identify subspecies. Snowman (talk) 17:46, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a Black-backed Wagtail, sometimes considered to be a full species Motacilla lugens, or alternatively a subspecies of White, M. a. lugens. Incidentally, File:Motacilla lugens1.jpg isn't what it's claimed to be, since it lacks the characteristic line from eye to gape <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:39, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * File description of White Wagtail on commons amended. Snowman (talk) 12:04, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 449. File:Motacilla lugens1.jpg for identification. Snowman (talk) 12:08, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a White Wagtail again, looks like M. a. leucopsis to me, but I think Shyamal is your man for these eastern races <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  13:52, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Jim, I agree with your diagnosis of this as well as the previous M. alba. My own experience is actually quite limited and had to go back and look at some photographs and verify the illustration made for the White Wagtail article and was glad to see that it was useful. Shyamal (talk) 16:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * File of White Wagtail tagged for renaming on commons to File:Motacilla alba -Hong Kong-8.jpg without implying corroboration. Is the French wiki wrong as well? Snowman (talk) 18:12, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, the image description as M. a. leucopsis is correct, but the file name and the article it's used in are not <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  05:50, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I corrected the image description yesterday. I will removed it from the French page. Snowman (talk) 10:22, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Birds for identification (45)

 * 450. looks like a pheasant for identification. Snowman (talk) 13:00, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Female Congo Peafowl. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:23, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to File:Afropavo congensis -Safaripark Beekse Bergen -female-8a.jpg on commons. I think it is "Safaripark Beekse Bergen", but some times it is phrased "Beekse Bergen Safaripark". Can anyone confirm name of zoo? Snowman (talk) 16:49, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 451. File:Caracara plancus -Argentina -flying-8.jpg Caracara probably in Argentina to confirm identification. Snowman (talk) 19:51, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * As described <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Southern Caracara used on species page being of better resolution than the previous image in flight. Snowman (talk) 09:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 452. File:Phalacrocorax brasilianus -Argentina -two flying-8.jpg Two birds probably in Argentina to confirm identification. Which subspecies? Snowman (talk) 20:03, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks OK to me. The location suggests that its the nominate P. b. brasilianus, and since it looks quite bulky I'd go for thta unlessanyone disagrees <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Neotropic Cormorant shown on species page. Snowman (talk) 09:54, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 453. Gull probably in Argentina. Snowman (talk) 20:46, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Grey-headed Gull Larus (or Chroicocephalus) cirrocephalus. Article currently lacks a flight shot <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Could it be a Brown-headed Gull? Snowman (talk) 09:37, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Ooops! I don't know what I was thinking of - the brown head is a bit of a clue, but Brown-headed is Asian, so I think it's Brown-hooded Gull (Chroicocephalus maculipennis) <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  13:03, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Brown-hooded Gull uploaded to File:Chroicocephalus maculipennis -Argentina-8.jpg on commons, and shown on species page, which does not have much text. Snowman (talk) 15:10, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 454. Large bird in zoo. Snowman (talk) 00:50, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Great headshot...a rhea (?) but which one I wonder..Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:33, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * ...And they have Greater Rhea and Lesser Rhea at the zoo. Snowman (talk) 20:22, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 455. Looks like a lapwing probably a zoo in Argentina. Snowman (talk) 01:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Vanellus chilensis probably ssp. cayennensis (based on Hayman-Marchant-Prater) Shyamal (talk) 01:24, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Southern Lapwing uploaded to File:Vanellus chilensis -Temaikén Zoo-8a.jpg on commons. This species is not listed on the zoo's website, so it could be a free flying bird attracted by food at the zoo. Temaikén Zoo, Belén de Escobar, Buenos Aires Province, Argentina is far south of the Amazon River and is outside of the range of the cayennensis subspecies going on the wiki page only. I am not saying you are wrong about the subspecies, but I am puzzled. Snowman (talk) 10:16, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Oops, actually you are right. The closer match is lampronotus, cayennensis has a whitish head which should be distinct. The black of the face connects to the breastband in chilensis but this view does not make that that certain. Guess Rabo3 or others should be easily able to tell with greater confidence. Shyamal (talk) 10:37, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Apparently the nominate is found in Argentina, but I do not know enough about it to amend the wiki's species page. User Rabo3 has an excellent track record in identifying Neotropical birds in the series here. I hope that he is not too busy to help out here from time to time. Snowman (talk) 10:55, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The key plumage on its front might be out-of-sight in this picture, and it might not be possible to identify the subspecies visually from what is given in text books. Pending further comments, I have identified it with the species only and said where it was photographed. Snowman (talk) 11:10, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * As in many species, the identification of subspecies based on photos is questionable at best (there are three in Argentina; lampronotus, chilensis and fretensis, though the validity of the last is questionable). I would suggest just limiting it to species in this specific case. • Rabo³  • 14:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It is at Temaikén Zoo and so we have the exact location for this one, which might help. I presume that it is a wild free-flying one. Snowman (talk) 15:12, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * In many cases yes, in this specific case no. The subspecies lampronotus and chilensis come into contact not too far from this region and a level of intergradation has also been documented between them (as correctly noted in the article: "birds from the general region of Uruguay apparently intergrade"). To further confuse matters, the southern fretensis move northwards during the South Hemisphere winter. • Rabo³  • 16:13, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 456. File:Vanellus chilensis -Temaikén Zoo-8b.jpg. From the same flickr series as Bird 455 (see above). Front view of Southern Lapwing  should make subspecies identification easier. Snowman (talk) 13:31, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 457. File:Aulacorhynchus prasinus -Vogelpark Walsrode-8a.jpg. Emerald Toucanet has complicated taxonomy, but some of the subtypes are distinct and it might be possible to identify the subspecies. Snowman (talk) 14:43, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That's a Crimson-rumped Toucanet. • Rabo³  • 14:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Re-uploaded to File:Aulacorhynchus haematopygus -Vogelpark Walsrode-8a.jpg and shown in the infobox on species page being much better than the previous image. Bad name file listed for deletion. Snowman (talk) 14:36, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 458. File:Cathartes aura -Lake Huron -Canada-8.jpg. New World vulture to confirm identification. Snowman (talk) 11:44, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Correct. Juvenile. • Rabo³  • 14:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I wondered if these Turkey Vultures should be called young, juveniles, or sub-adults. Juveniles are not mentioned at all in the text of the FA article on the species. I have shown this photograph there. Snowman (talk) 15:12, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * These terms are so unspecific that it doesn't really matter. I've changed it to "immature" simply because that's the term used in the text of the article. • Rabo³  • 19:12, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 459. File:Molothrus ater -Ontario -Canada -display-8.jpg. Cowbird to confirm identification. Snowman (talk) 12:06, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Correct. • Rabo³  • 14:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I have shown these male Brown-headed Cowbirds on the species page. This displaying behaviour is not otherwise mentioned there. Snowman (talk) 15:12, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Pied Currawong peer review of sorts...
I threw this one up for GA and it was snapped up straightaway. I have buffed it up since and intend to throw it into the snake pit. All suggestions for improvement welcome. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:35, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Possible Good Topic?
What about River martin as a prospective GT? It's a subfamily with only two members, and White-eyed River Martin is a GA already. African River Martin isn't that far off, even has a map. If someone fancies taking that to GA, remembering to keep the headings and structure the same as White-eyed, I'll have a crack at the subfamily article (or visa versa, but the subfamily is not much more than a stub). Any thoughts? <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  16:50, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

....hmmmm...interesting :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:40, 9 November 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I'll take that as project support and start on the subfamily article {: <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak  - </b> talk to me?  13:00, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I can not find any photographs of these species on flickr by making the obvious searches. Of course, there might be some there somewhere not labelled with the species names, but I can not find them. Snowman (talk) 12:11, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * AFAIK, there are no PD photos of White-eyed, nor are there likely to be any given its possibly extinct status. The Oriental Bird Club has some, but they are not GFDL. African Bird club has African River Martin, but they are not PD either. There is no requirement at GA for any images, and even at FA there could just be one. Although it would be nice to have a photo, in practice paintings, habitat images etc are adequate, and barring some real luck, all we are likely to get <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak  - </b> talk to me?  19:03, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Animals
WikiProject Animals needs your help and support please join and help. Could someone please direct me to the Birds Coordinator???  Zoo Pro  05:58, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * We don't really have one. What kind of help is needed? Sabine's Sunbird  talk  06:03, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * General Help,Many WikiProjects are disolving into inactive and i intend to stop that. If anyone here is interested in working on multiple projecst and help clean them up and re-active the projects, please let me know and i will do my best to direct you to the areas needing the most help. I think the biggest problem we have at the moment is on WikiProject Amphibians and Reptiles WP:AAR, it seems to have an extraordinary amount of unrated and orphan articles. I would encourage/beg if you know anyone that is interested or might have an expertise in the area to join and fix the issues. I have only just salvaged the Portal:Animals it was over 12 months since it was last updated. I would like the WikiProject Birds to help with that as it covers all of our projects. In the coming days i will also be appealing to WikiProject Mammals and WikiProject Fishes.  Zoo Pro  10:51, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

True parrots
I've mentioned this before, but this came up in a discussion about taxonomy and nomenclature on a forum I moderate. One of the posters, who is a big parrot fan, asked
 * Wikipedia says that Australasian parrots aren't "true parrots", meaning cockatoos, keas, kakas and kakapos. I'm not really sure what "true parrot" means, since they've still got two toes facing forward and backwards on each foot, hooked bills, and a diet consisting largely of fruit and nuts .


 * I mean, the Australasian parrots were meant to have branched off the evolutionary tree some time back, but who's to say that makes them not "true parrots"? Isn't that like saying an orangutan isn't a true ape?

Our articles are confusing people into thinking that cockatoos and New Zealand parrots aren't parrots. I think the adjective "true" is useful if you have unrelated birds with the same name (true thrushes versus the many other birds that are unrelated) - but what makes a Psittacidae parrot more true than a kea or a cockateil? We don't call the two other families false parrots. Surely the article would be better named Psittacidae or typical parrot. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:25, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem is that the order Psittaciformes is not limited to parrots, but inclusive of cockatoos. But it was argued a long time ago that that page could not be renamed, and hence it required to have an adequate name for the family Psittacidae. Much of the information in the Parrot article is actually rather specific for the True Parrots. But oh well, the parrot pages are often an mess as several different classifications are used for different parts of the order.... -- Kim van der Linde at venus 01:30, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * My fellow poster and I both consider cockatoos to be parrots, in the same way I consider a macaw, or a kea or a lory or lorikeet a parrot. As for the information on parrot, I've been working with both species articles in the HBW to make sure the info was correct for the whole order, but no doubt it could do with some more work. The imbalance probably reflects the imbalance in numbers. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:46, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I just looked over the content, and it seems indeed reasonable. As for the name, I do not consider Cockatoos parrots, but parrot-like. I n my native language, we have a simple word construction for that, but in English, such a way is lacking. I really do not care how the Psittacidae article is renamed. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 01:51, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Heck, if it was sci-fi or RPG-talk, we'd say "Parrotoids" or (more seriously) "psittacoids". Problem is, if the NZ parrots are more divergent, then their appellation of "parrots" becomes more problematic...however, ours is not to reason why...only reflect upon common usage :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:39, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * But is true parrots common usage? It doesn't seem to be. The most common name for the family is the parrot family, but parrot can also refer to the whole order (as say the OED and we do), that isn't very helpful. Given the lack of a common name that is appropriate, it probably should be the scientific name. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  04:08, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You took the words right off my fingers! The problem is trying to use "parrot", a word in common usage for centuries, as a precise taxonomic term.  We have no reason to tell people they're using it wrong or that some species they call a parrot isn't a "true" parrot.  And when there are taxonomic changes, is a parrot not a parrot any more or some parrot ally now a true parrot?  It would be much better for "parrot" to be a set index article sending people to Psittaciformes or Psittacidae, with some guidance for which one people are seeking. &mdash;JerryFriedman  (Talk) 04:28, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, this is what I kind of wanted many years ago when there was only an article for the order and not for the family. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 04:43, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * How are cockatoos and nestorids not parrots? innotata (Talk | Contribs) 18:23, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

[de-indent] The issue isn't what birds are but what a word means. Some people use "parrot" to include cockatoos, notably including the American Heritage, Random House Unabridged, and New Shorter Oxford English dictionaries, whereas for other people "parrot" doesn't include cockatoos, as reflected in the Merriam-Webster definition (which might need a little work) and by 807,000 Google hits for "parrots and cockatoos" and 376,000 for "cockatoos and parrots". I see no reason for us to take a side in article titles on the usage of a word&mdash;especially with the phrase "true parrots", which obviously annoys some people. &mdash;JerryFriedman (Talk) 15:32, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course parrot should include cockatoos. I don't get the point innotata (Talk | Contribs) 18:52, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course, Cockatoos are not parrots, as they have several unique characteristics. (And so we can keep arguing).....-- Kim van der Linde at venus 19:05, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No. No one is saying that cockatoos are the same as other parrots, obviously they are not hence they are afforded their own family. What we are saying is that in English the word parrot can and is used to cover the whole order. Under such a usage calling a cockatoo a parrot is correct, it is a member of the order. Parrot can also mean any member of the order that isn't a cockatoo, or mean the family Psittacidae, or even any member of that family that isn't a lory, lorikeet (or even a macaw - see here. The term is imprecise, as the use of the word in English is. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  00:29, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Kim was just humorously illustrating how the argument could go, I think. Otherwise I agree with you completely&mdash;but I've already said that. &mdash;JerryFriedman  (Talk) 06:31, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh! Sorry, Kim! Sabine's Sunbird  talk  03:19, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

River martin
Now at GAN - I'd better do some reviewing there to shorten the backlog! <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  08:16, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Good articles?

 * I've been working up River martin to GA with a view to establishing a second Good Topic for the project. Any comments, amendments, copy edits etc would be welcome, since I've run out of info to add without duplicating too much of the species' accounts
 * African River Martin also needs to get to GA to complete the set, anyone fancy taking it on, if not I will
 * Bird vision I would have thought was a core topic, and has lots of content. I think that it should be at least a GA, but I've got too much on. Anyone want to rise to the challenge? <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  11:06, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I think "bird vision" is currently rated for WP Birds with "high importance". I would support this being upgraded to "top importance". "Life of Vertebrates" by J.Z. Young has a lot about bird vision, but I have an old second-hand copy. Snowman (talk) 20:18, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

GAN
African River Martin at GAN as well as river martin, so if they get through we can try for GT. Incidentally, people who regularly review/write/improve article probably know about the following useful tools, but just in case <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  08:22, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Dablinks
 * Link Checker

Birds for identification (46)

 * 460. File:Ramphocelus dimidiatus -Ancon Hill -Panama City-8.jpg. A Crimson-backed Tanager to confirm identification. Snowman (talk) 22:21, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 461 File:Thamnophilus doliatus -Panama-8.jpg. A Barred Antshrike to confirm identification. Snowman (talk) 22:37, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, a male <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:05, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Now described as a male in image description on commons. Image shown on species page with other images. Snowman (talk) 09:49, 9 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 462. Duck in zoo or similar for identification. Snowman (talk) 23:44, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Beautiful female Hooded Merganser. &mdash;JerryFriedman (Talk) 06:31, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to File:Lophodytes cucullatus -Vogelpark Walsrode -female-8a.jpg on commons and shown on species page. Snowman (talk) 10:05, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 463. Vulture in zoo for identification. Snowman (talk) 23:46, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Andean Condor, an immature Natureguy1980 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:58, 21 November 2009 (UTC).


 * 465. File:Platalea ajaja -Vogelpark Walsrode-8a.jpg. Roseate Spoonbill to confirm identification. Its head looks more yellow than some of the other images. Snowman (talk) 00:09, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Confirmed&mdash;it's the only pink spoonbill (Firefly Encyclopedia). Howell and Webb say the head is golden buff in the breeding season. (I should add that to the article, but not right now.) &mdash;JerryFriedman  (Talk) 06:10, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Details added to image description on commons and shown in gallery of species page. Snowman (talk) 10:05, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 466. File:Psittacula derbiana-20040821.jpg. To confirm identification. It would be easier if this parrot's front was shown, but it looks like the tail is tipped with yellow. Snowman (talk) 19:55, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 467. File:Psittacula derbiana -Brooklands Zoo -male-8a.jpg. Snowman (talk) 20:36, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * New file of Red-breasted Parakeet uploaded to File:Psittacula alexandri -Brooklands Zoo -male-8a.jpg, and bad name file to be deleted pending comments. Snowman (talk) 23:52, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 468. Crow, rook, or raven for identification. Snowman (talk) 20:52, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Common Raven, an immature, though almost certainly a separate species; the species is in need to a taxonomic update Unsigned line by Natureguy1980 (talk) at 03:00, 21 November 2009 made by this edit
 * Uploaded to File:Corvus corax -San Francisco Bay Area-8.jpg on commons without implying corroboration. Is it the pale areas on the beak that indicate a juvenile? Snowman (talk) 10:22, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 469. File:Pelecanus conspicillatus -Australia -8.jpg to confirm identification. Snowman (talk) 17:50, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Australian Pelican Natureguy1980 (talk) at 03:00, 21 November 2009
 * Thank you for confirming identity. Snowman (talk) 10:06, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Image of White-cheeked Amazon (or Kawall's Amazon)
Thanks to several generous and kind flickr photographers and wiki photographers, the wiki has photographs of the other 29 Amazon parrot species, albeit with some place-holders; see List of Amazon parrots. Has anyone got any ideas of getting an image of the 30th Amazon parrot, the White-cheeked Amazon (or Kawall's Amazon) for the wiki. Snowman (talk) 20:28, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm off to Brazil next year, I'll give it a go! Sabine's Sunbird  talk  02:03, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Anywhere in particular? I had a couple of weeks in the Atlantic Rain Forest, really good, but no White-cheeks there <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  08:22, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * There are different Amazon parrots depending where you visit. Forshawe (2006) indicates a largish range in the Central Amazon River basin for Kawall's Amazon. Another parrot to photograph would be the Lear's Macaw in northeast Bahia, Brazil. Snowman (talk) 10:48, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * My friends and I haven't decided. We have a conference (the big Ornithological Congress) up in the hills above Sao Paulo, after which we are going to explore somewhere - obviously if we do the Pantanal we won't be in the range of this species. At the very least I will be able to get some photos of famous contemporary ornithologists and palaeontologists like Gerld Mayr and Luis Chiappe. Sabine's Sunbird   talk  01:35, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Does it come as a surprise that none of these contemporary ornithologists have articles on them? Perhaps a move to populate this articles might prompt some of them/their students to get into the habit of improving Wikipedia. I noticed recently for instance that we have John Krebs, Baron Krebs but no article on Nicholas B. Davies (photo waiting here) Shyamal (talk) 04:02, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Thrush splits
Unless there are any objections, I'd like to split the Naumann's/Dusky Thrush page and the Red-/Black-throated Thrush page to reflect the split by HBW, BOU, OSME & others. I'll give it a few days - if you feel I shouldn't do this, comment here. Thanks SP-KP (talk) 23:01, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Sounds good if there is consensus among the authorities (but I am an emotional splitter.... :)) Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:34, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I have no objections, as long as there is sufficient information to justify the split. Summerteeth87 16:16, 9 November 2009 (EST)

OK, I've done Naumann's / Dusky - any volunteers to check these over over for errors, copyedit, etc? I'll do Black- & Red-throated some time soon SP-KP (talk) 11:09, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Update: I've done Black & Red-throated Thrush now too. Editors may wish to check other pages that link to these (or the Dark-throated Thrush) page, and change the links if appropriate. Likewise with Dusky & Naumann's. I've done this myself where the correct link is obvious. What I haven't fixed are the interwiki links, as I'm not an editor on any of the non-English-language Wikipedias. SP-KP (talk) 13:52, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Merge Sporophila zelichi with Sporophila palustris
According to the SACC the Entre Rios Seedeater is nothing more than a color morph of the Marsh Seedeater. Therefor it was withdrawn from the South American Bird List in 2009. (i think other committees or organisations will soon follow the SACC) More information here: http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/SACCprop376.html. Similar to the case of Laniarius liberatus (which is a color morph of Laniarius erlangeri) this article should be merged with Sporophila palustris --Melly42 (talk) 14:56, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing it out. However, since no one's jumping on this one, I think we can wait for other committees and organizations, or better yet, for stronger evidence.  The evidence cited in the SACC proposal seems persuasive but not ironclad. &mdash;JerryFriedman  (Talk) 04:30, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * They should be merged. There is no published evidence supporting their continued separation. • Rabo³  • 05:47, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Eurasian Sparrowhawk
Hi. I've done some more work on the Eurasian Sparrowhawk article recently. In August I submitted it for peer review but had only one response. Maias kindly took a look at it a couple of weeks ago and assessed it as B-class. Since then I've added some more information. Can anyone help with how to progress further? Thanks! Bogbumper (talk) 14:31, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You could start checking the article agaist GA requirements for the time being. Put it up as GA Nominee once you are convinced its done. AshLin (talk) 19:12, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

importance rating
I've just found a rather nifty importance scale explanation at WP:RODENT. What does everybody think of adding something similar here? The current importance scale is hard to follow in my opinion. innotata (Talk | Contribs) 00:59, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * As it stands, it is somewhat subjective. My rule of thumb is that a run-of-the-mill species is low, unless it has some significance to up it to mid or high. I can't imagine any individual species being a 'top' though. Families are mid or high, and genera generally mid or low. (note that I might have not followed this myself!). Might be worth looking at all which are 'top' importance and querying additions or subtractions. This might be better done in more detail on the assessment subpage. A rough guide is a good idea though. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:09, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Exactly! The situation at rodents obviously is rather different. What I'd like to know is what pages would be top-importance, except bird. Then I'll add or suggest a scale to the assessment page. innotata (Talk | Contribs) 18:45, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay then - all are wlecome to discuss this in more detail at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Birds/Assessment. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:52, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Sparrowhawk
Bogbumper has put Eurasian Sparrowhawk up for GA, and I'm trying to help out (I can't review since I'm the other major contribtor) I think the subspecies ref to the Internet Bird Collection should be replaced by a link to the HBW, can anyone supply the ref with page numbers please <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  08:01, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I've done it! (I'm in the library; it would be daft not to)Bogbumper (talk) 11:37, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Northern Goshawk
The IOC name for Accipiter gentilis is Northern Goshawk, yet the wiki entry says Goshawk.See http://www.worldbirdnames.org/n-raptors.html I'd change this if I knew how, but I'd also want to bring it up here anyway. Can anyone help? Thanks! Natureguy1980 (talk) 03:32, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

http://www.worldbirdnames.org/n-raptors.html


 * Yeah, I can do this. Question for you all before I do - should Goshawk itself be a dab page, a redirect to this species or a redirect to Accipter? Sabine's Sunbird  talk  04:28, 29 November 2009 (UTC)


 * My vote is that it shouldn't be a redirect to Accipiter. I'd be happy with either of the other two. &mdash;JerryFriedman (Talk) 05:19, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Since there was an existing dab page, I simply moved that to Goshawk. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  05:34, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Sunbird. Since there are a dozen species of goshawk, yes, "goshawk" should redirect to Accipiter. What happens if an Australian types in "goshawk" and get send directly to the Northern Goshawk page with no link to the species s/he may be looking for? Or, perhaps even better, "goshawk" could get its own page that simply says, "Originally used for the species Accipiter gentilis, goshawk now refers to a number of large hawks of the genus Accipiter." Natureguy1980 (talk) 18:00, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * But there are hawks in other genera, and some non-bird things, with "goshawk" in the name. I think the present solution for goshawk, thanks to Sabine's Sunbird and SP-KP, is the best.  It expands on your second suggestion. &mdash;JerryFriedman  (Talk) 18:09, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Just looked at the current goshawk page and think it's perfect. Thanks, everyone. Natureguy1980 (talk) 18:20, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Like it too. It mirrors sparrowhawk, as it ought to. The division is widespread in folk taxonomy. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 21:49, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, I think the "Goshawk dab" (the new dab page) was left in a bit of a mess, and I have done some tidy up work and listing to the dab page, which is not perfect. After a page move its talk page was incorrectly left as a redirect, but I have fixed it now with this edit. I have added the Birdtalk banner with a NA class to the talk page, which I think is appropriate if this dab page it is to be part of the WP Birds. I have added the DAB WP project banner to the talk page as I do for all dab pages. I have also listed some more non-bird pages to the dab page. Snowman (talk) 16:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)