Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Central Asia/Archive 3

Anthems needing translation
Hello! I saw the article for the Anthem of the Kazakh SSR, and it needs translation to russian OR english. Could someone do that? Thanks. -- vonu sovef (wha?) 20:16, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Al-Farabi
Somebody had nominated this article as a WP:Good article and I put on hold tag on it. Can you please help us with it.-- Sa.vakilian(t-c) 03:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I presume that this is the article you're talking about: Al-Farabi? If so, what do you need help with? -- Hux 09:30, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Apologies - I see you already outlined what needs to be done on the talk page. :) -- Hux 09:32, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Terminology
What is the proper name for citizens of Uzbekistan? Are they Uzbek or Uzbekistani? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ProveIt (talk • contribs) 16:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Uzbek generally refers to a member of that ethnic group, but can often be a suitable adjective when talking about Uzbekistan in general. Terms such as "Uzbekistani" or "Kazakhstani" are usually used when discussing specific issues of citizenship and/or identity that affect all citizens of that country, regardless of their ethnicity. That’s just my take on it, other opinions may differ. Otebig 00:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please feel free to comment on this ongoing discussion. -- Prove It (talk) 14:22, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

As Otebig said, the correct term when speaking about the citizens of Uzbekistan is Uzbekistani, the term Uzbek refers to an ethnic group and includes citizens of other countries where Uzbeks live. The distinction dates back to the Soviet period when citizenship and ethnicity where two clearly defined concepts, both of which were indicated in the passport. This remains true today in Central Asia, however the distinction is progressively being lost, in particular when people speak or write in English... Sebastian Stride 22:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Project Template
For some reason when an article is labeled "Category class" with our project template, Template:WikiProject Central Asia, it is automatically added to Category:Unassessed Central Asia-related articles. Is there template coder in the house who can make them assessable? Aelfthrytha 19:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * What should it do instead? --Latebird 20:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It should put them into their own "Category class articles" category (this category also needs creation) instead of into unassessed. Aelfthrytha 22:55, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you give me an example where this happens? Or what are the possible values that indicate "category class"? --Latebird 10:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I've come across templates in the past where assessing as "class=category" comes up on the template as a category on the Talk page of the article, but doesn't get recognised by the code that puts things into assessment categories. However "class=cat" does work both ways.  I don't know if this applies to this template. FlagSteward 17:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Indo-Greek Kingdom
Indo-Greek Kingdom has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. Blnguyen  ( bananabucket ) 08:57, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Central Asian cuisine
Hi guys. Central Asian cuisine is currently a stub that just lists the cuisines of individual countries - I'm sure that it could be built up into a good overview of general trends in the eating habits across the region. It's the sort of thing that's quite hard for an outsider to do, but probably quite easy for a 'local' - anyone fancy it? FlagSteward 17:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

History of Central Asia
This is just to announce that over the next few months, students from Barcelona University and Washington University (Saint Louis) will be improving and adding articles, which concern the History of Central Asia. For practical purposes we will be opening a new project page: WikiProject History and Archaeology of Central Asia, which will then either continue or merge with the existing Project Central Asia. I hope this is OK with everyone. Sebastian Stride 22:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent! But I'd like to see it either as part of this project or a subproject of this one.  --Stacey Doljack Borsody 23:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

That sounds fine. I will include it as a subproject (if I sucessfully learn how to use the wiki tools!) Sebastian Stride 23:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC) 23:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * If you need help with wiki stuff, feel free to hit me up. I don't know how to do everything, of course, but when I don't I can find those who know. And I'd love to see this as a subproject or working group of our project because I think when we get too diffused, we lose strength and focus. Aelfthrytha 03:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks like he created WikiProject History and Archaeology of Central Asia. (SEWilco 17:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC))
 * Please try to coordinate with this project page as there are already so many pages on the history of the region that need attention. Creating multiple pages on the same subject only complicates things.cs (talk) 05:53, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Anyone know what happened with this subproject? It looks like nothing has occurred with it? --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 21:04, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, both the project and the teacher (Sebastian Stride) have been dormant since November. Otebig (talk) 02:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Collaborations/Improvement Drives
Would people be interested in some kind of collaboration/improvement drive? There are a lot of important articles out there which are currently just start or stub class. Some examples include: Islam in Central Asia, Music of Central Asia, Civil war in Tajikistan, Kurmanbek Bakiyev, Central Asian studies, Ablai Khan, Greater Khorasan, and Shanghai Cooperation Organization. Beyond those, I'm sure each of us know a few articles that we'd love to see grow. Could we do a collaboration once a month (or once a week)? What do people think? Otebig (talk) 13:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I personally would love to make a lot of the geography stubs grow, but I don't have any idea where to pursue information. Aelfthrytha (talk) 05:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Standardization of Adjectives
Seems we have a running problem standardizing adjectives for country nationals (Kazakh vs. Kazakhstani, etc.). This isn't good because: lack of clarity and conflicting / confusing category names. Is there any standard on wiki for this? Do people want to adopt a standard? If so, what procedure should we follow in doing that? Aelfthrytha (talk) 04:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I thought a standard had formed, judging from some of the previous discussions (such as here and here). My understanding is that the -stani adjective is used for someone from that country (but not necessarily from the titular group), while people from certain ethnic groups are called by the name (Kazakh, Uzbek). For example, Toktar Aubakirov is in two categories, among others: Kazakh cosmonauts and Kazakhstani people. He is both a Kazakh and a Kazakhstani. I believe most categories and articles have been renamed to reflect this standard. This only applies to the five former Soviet republics, though. The Afghanistan article has had a long debate over the appropriate adjectives for that country (see here). Is there an example of a standardizing problem somewhere? Otebig (talk) 08:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I concur on the difference between adjectives expressing ethnicity and nationality.Doc Rock (talk) 16:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Category:Turkmenistan contains Category:Turkmen people and all the nationality-occupation categories are for Turkmen xxx (except Category:Turkmenistani sportspeople). Ditto for Category:Kyrgyzstan. Category:Tajikistan is more uniform, but there are still categories in Category:Tajikistani people that use Tajik (Category:Tajik composers, Category:Tajik musicians). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aelfthrytha (talk • contribs) 05:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Tajik categories are now fixed, Turkmen ones remain a problem. Aelfthrytha (talk) 19:47, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Mongolia work group
A while ago, someone created several country specific work groups, which have mostly been dormant since then. Because there's a small but persistent number of editors interested in Mongolia, which tend to discuss general topics on each other's user talk pages, I've decided to try to bring the /Mongolia work group to an actual life. I'll invite the most obvious candidates individually, but any other interested parties are welcome to join us or at least put the page on their watchlist. --Latebird (talk) 05:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Workgroups to projects?
Was any of the actual participants here consulted before User:John Carter unilaterally turned all of the work groups into self contained WikiProjects? As far as I can tell, at least the editors interested in Mongolia have no intention of operating a full blown WikiProject. We were very happy that we didn't have to deal with all the administrative overhead. Am I the only one who feels rather disturbed by such an change being installed over everybodies heads? --Latebird (talk) 19:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Central Asia does form a valid category to do research upon. Read any of the Turfan texts and try to cling to vocabulary from one language family! The same is true of history and to some degree of contemporary politics. Thus it is highly suitable to have a coordination platform for these matters, a project Central Asia. And as for the workgroup Mongolia, we're not that much people as to suitably constitute a project. Therefore the recent changes don't look suitable to me. G Purevdorj 22:02, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, no one was really consulted when the projects were created by the same person either. They were initially created to provide separate assessment statistics tables for each country, which can be done with the existing Central Asia project banner, as seen below. The reason for changing the names was, basically, because the future is extremely hard to determine what projects will be created in the future, also very often without any degree of consultation. We have already previously found that projects proliferate uncontrollably. There is in my eyes an unfortunate probability that someone, possibly in response to a major news development, will create a new project for a specific area of one or more of these countries. In such cases, these "daughter" projects tend to list their "parent" project's name, and it gets confusing when one subproject says another subproject is its parent. The only change was in the name of the groups. Please note that all the subprojects of WikiProject Australia also use the name "WikiProject" even though none of them have separate banners. The renaming is simply that. It is unfortunate that the person who started this thread knows as little about wikipedia in general as he apparently does, and that he is choosing to act so obviously on the basis of that ignorance. John Carter (talk) 16:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You make some reasonable points, John, but your last sentence was needlessly antagonistic. Latebird may simply have a different opinion about how best to structure things here. Just because it is (apparently) different from the way things are currently done does not immediately mean that it's drawn from ignorance. - Hux (talk) 01:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * As I understood it, the whole point of the Mongolia work group was having a centralized page for discussing content, instead of discussing on individual user pages, or on the Naming conventions page. Actually, I don't really care about calling it a project or not, just as long as someone else does the rating and maintenance stuff.
 * In the case of Mongolia, there may be another issue in that a Mongolian work group should (IMO) ideally deal with both Inner and Outer Mongolia, and then putting up a banner in articles dealing with places in Inner Mongolia might be feel strange to some people. Yaan (talk) 11:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know anything about these workgroups (where can I find out more info?), but I am feeling rather offended that no one is discussing such major changes here on this talk page. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 20:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Just poking my nose around more while learning about workgroups, from WikiProject_Council/Proposals: "Creating a project: If your project gains support from 5-10 active Wikipedians, it could probably benefit from the organisation boost of having a proper page. Remove it from this list and follow the instructions for creating new projects. If you want to start a page before you have 5-10 active Wikipedians, consider setting up the page on a subpage of your user page until it is active, while leaving the posting here with a link to the user page. " Was also having thoughts regarding the mass-setup of WikiProjects or workgroups based upon modern country names. I'm not clear on the intent but it seems more like a categorization scheme overloading Mediawiki's current categorization features. Went looking for a WikiProject Hungary and found Hungarian_Wikipedians'_notice_board instead. Also found WikiProject_Europe/Hungary_task_force, which hasn't been used by the actual interested participants (from the notice board) in like 2 months. Noting this, I can figure that while it is true that the Mongolia workgroup folks run the risk of someone else creating a WikiProject Mongolia, people self-organize how they wish and the center of "all the action" depends upon the folks who participate. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 17:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposed change to project banner
There is now a proposed variant form of the project banner. It can be seen at User:John Carter/Sandbox2. The results of its use can be seen on that page's talk page. As can be seen, the categories for it's use have already been set up. If the members of this project wish to use the new changed banner, all that would be required would be either cutting and pasting it in place of the extant banner or moving the page. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 21:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Other than the shortened text at the top I'm not seeing what the difference is between this and the existing banner. Maybe you could explain? -- Hux (talk) 22:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * As seen on the talk page, it allows for separate assessment for several of the Central Asia project's related projects, most of which don't currently have assessment data. John Carter (talk) 22:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, got it. In that case I say let's use it. :) - Hux (talk) 01:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This form of project banner has worked great so far in the Africa WikiProject. Admittedly, the Africa WP has a few more sub-projects than WPCA, but still.... It's a good way of coordinating peoples interest within both the parent and the child wikiproject. --Mukk 23:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The project banner got reverted back to the original one (not by me). I added usage notes to the page because they appeared to be missing and I think the majority of people here may not know what options there are. Now, what is wanted in the project banner? The one User:John Carter had made included a bunch of new assessment classes and portal options. Do the assessment guys here want to use those new classes or keep the ones currently in use? (Like FL, Cat, Dab, Template, etc.) Do we want portal options? There also seems to be some semi-useless options like needs-infobox or merge. Can we remove those? I think some of these things can be done without. The proposed banner from User:John Carter added in options for the related wikiprojects. Do we want those? My interest is in adding some project banner tagging for the Tuva task force to include a category or ratings specific to the task force. Do the Mongolia work group guys want something too? Check out the categories the current pb also adds articles to and discuss if they are appropriate. For example, the attention option adds articles to a non-existent category, but there is a single article already a member of that category. Please, everyone take a look at the usage notes I added and provide some input on what we think we need or not. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 01:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


 * As an editor who assessed at least five hundred articles, I prefer the reverted (old) version. The added options don't relate to assessment, but rather to specific omissions. They do make the template more complicated, which makes my assessment process more difficult. The options I do like (and use) are: small, nested, class, and importance. I also do not prefer the links to the related wikiprojects because although I don't plan to interfere with them, I do not think they are useful. Also, I'm not sure about adding tagging for Tuva or Mongolia. In my experience with stub-sorting and categorizing, adding templates tends to result in a pile up of templates. The templates become a never ending end rather than a means to an end, and don't really help articles develop (which I would even say about assessment in general). Aelfthrytha (talk) 06:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Removing unused projects
I've submitted a deletion request covering the following pages, because they are not actually used by anyone: --Latebird (talk) 00:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * WikiProject Kazakhstan
 * WikiProject Kazakhstan/Articles
 * WikiProject Kyrgyzstan
 * WikiProject Turkmenistan
 * WikiProject Uzbekistan

Possible deletion of this project
There is an extant policy of WP:OWN. The members of this project seem to have a view that they can violate that policy. As such, I believe that there is more than sufficient basis for proposing this project for deletion. Can anyone give me any good reason why it shouldn't be? John Carter (talk) 15:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's sit tight on this until the MfD is over so as not to have two fronts in this battle. :) -- 12 N oo n 2¢ 17:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * John Carter: Your post doesn't make sense to me. In the first place, "the members of this project"? Which members? In the second place (and more importantly), how does violation of WP:OWN justify the deletion of the entire project? That's seems rather absurd. -- Hux (talk) 19:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, any project which violates any policy, on the basis of the violation of that policy, can be and is a candidate for deletion, as no page in project space, particularly including a WikiProject, can justify existing to violate policy. In the case of a project, the project is in effect saying that one of its functions is to violate policy, and that is grounds for deletion. Trust me, it's been done before, although I can't find any particular examples right now. John Carter (talk) 19:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "Actually, any project which violates any policy, on the basis of the violation of that policy, can be and is a candidate for deletion" - I don't understand this rationale. If I understand you correctly, if an editor personally attacks another editor on the talk page of a project, for example, the entire project becomes a candidate for deletion. Ditto if an editor uses a unfree image for the project's icon in clear violation of copyright law. Ditto if an editor acts in a manner that suggests they believe they own the project (i.e. your assertion in this particular case). In such situations, the obvious thing to do, imo, is to correct the problem, not to delete the whole project. The latter option is like launching a nuclear missile at a suicide bomber in order to stop him from detonating his bomb. -- Hux (talk) 21:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I seem to be missing a lot of what is going on because no one is discussing stuff on this talk page here. Instead they are just making major unilateral changes on pages I don't watch and then expect everyone else to go along with them.  Seems like poor form to me.  Please do not delete this WikiProject.  --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 19:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Basically, one editor, User:Latebird, on the basis of his statement that he didn't want the Mongolia group to have to create templates, objected to work I was doing to create separate assessments for the various comparatively new extant subprojects which I created, including the Mongolia one. His concern is frankly an irrational one, because the assessments are done by bot anyway. He then subsequently proposed the various non-Mongolian "subprojects" for deletion, as mentioned above, because, basically, he doesn't like them. As such, that user has, based on his own, well, dare I say laziness?, seemed to declare that his opinions are more important than policy, and has seemed to use this project as a vehicle for the violation of that policy. And, yes, if a project can be demonstrated to be a means of violating policy, than the means of violating policy can be considered for deletion. John Carter (talk) 20:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Equally I see basically one editor, User:John Carter, also making unilateral changes without discussion and then you suggest that this WikiProject should be deleted. And to those actions of yours, I object. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 20:05, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Creation of the subpages, their categories, etc., certainly qualifies under WP:BOLD. And I personally object to the willful misstatement above. I did not suggest that it "should" be deleted. I indicated that I believed it could be proposed for deletion, which it could be, and asked for reasons why it should not be. The two are not even remotely equivalent. I sincerely hope that such possibly willful misrepresentations of the statements of others cease. However, I am more than willing to acknowledge that I have behaved inappropriately in this matter. Any parties interested in seeing me consider removing myself as an admin should see the comments I have posted on the top of my user page and specifically the link provided at the word "here" there. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 21:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * While we're busy throwing around Wikipedia policy links, perhaps a review of WP:BURO, WP:IAR, and WP:CON is also in order. I'm not really interested in passing judgment on the issue between Latebird and John Carter.  I just have a belief that proper discussion with major stakeholders on major changes helps avoid all sorts of conflict, regardless of any policy like WP:OWN.  Almost certainly being bold is a good thing on a small scale, but it can also get one into conflict quickly if it isn't balanced with consensus-building discussion.  --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 23:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

If asking someone to cooperate with other people instead of acting unilaterally amounts to "ownership" of a complete project, then I'll plead guilty as charged without hesitation. If accusations of violating policy bear weight even when no specific infractions are demonstrated, then I'm happy to be a violator. If unused WikiProjects, or WikiProjects only used by one person and a bot, make sense, then I'm glad to be senseless. And if disagreeing with someone makes me clueless and inexperienced, well, learning new stuff and making new experiences has always been one of my favourite passtimes.

As to the other misrepresentations of my statements and intentions, most of those are just too ridiculous to refute them all individually. Unfortunately some people, especially in the failed MfD, actually seem to have bought into one or the other, pity for them. But to those who approached the raised questions with even the smallest amount of common sense, whether they agreed with me or not, thanks for trying to keep Wikipedia sane. --Latebird (talk) 12:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * So....what's the status of this currently? Aelfthrytha (talk) 01:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell, there is nothing going on. Just lots of posturing and wikilawyering.  --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 01:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If John Carter has no issue with things as they currently stand then it looks like the matter is closed. - Hux (talk) 09:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposal for new workgroup
I'd like to see if there is interest here in creating a new workgroup for Tuva-related articles. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 18:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I should add, I've created a test page for this at User:Sborsody/Tuva_task_force. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 19:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I moved the page now to WikiProject Central Asia/Tuva task force. There are three of us now.  Ideally a minimum of five people would be good to have.  --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 02:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll get the ball rolling more on this later... on maternity leave now... --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 18:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Is there a way to get consensus versus unilateral decisions - problems with User talk:Latebird?
User talk:Latebird has engaged in several unilateral decisions involving #REDIRECTS, setting up disambig pages that do not follow Disambiguation on issues that he does not fully understand, from my point of view. In my opinion, he fails to understand that Uvs Nuur Basin is the larger area than Uvs Nuur (lake). He feels the watershed (the basin) is a subset of the lake. In reality, the basin is a well known endorheic basin. Further Ubsunur Hollow, not the same as the basin, is an area of important archaeological sites, and is not the same as the lake or the basin, although they are all in the same area. He continues to combine all articles into one. This would be fine if he allowed the original articles to remain for further growth, and set up a main pages with sub pages, if that is his desire. However, I am against the wiping out of the original articles, as well as the mixing up of information that is distinct into one article at his discretion only. This results in reducing of importance of such subjects as archaeological findings and geologically interesting information to one or two sentence items. Mattisse 02:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This pot started to boil over when I reverted two unilateral changes by Mattisse (trying to rename Uvs Nuur into "Uvs Nuur Basin" with a very unhelpful editor note of "added word", and then trying to remove all information about that basin from Wikipedia ). Before my revert of his second edit, which I considered to come dangerously close to making a point if not worse, I tried to initiate a discussion on his talk page. I thought we were coming to an agreement that it makes sense to split the two topics again, which had been merged quite a while ago (by User:Ghirlandajo  on my suggestion). Apparently Mattisse saw a different debate going on, because he began to throw increasingly severe accusations at me, some of which I still don't fully understand (purportedly, I "merged many articles he wrote", details unspecified).
 * In any case, the two (three?) topics were split again (creating Uvs Nuur Basin and Ubsunur Hollow), and someone else also created Uvs Nuur (disambiguation) (mistakenly attributed to me by Mattisse). A discussion between several participants about lake, basin, hollow, depression, possibly some other geographical features and several protected sites in the area is still taking place, primarily on Talk:Uvs Nuur. It's kind of confusing, and I still don't quite understand in all cases which is which and how they differ from each other. Because of that I've only contributed one minor formal edit to the actual reorg myself.
 * Why Mattisse thinks that geographical features could be "subsets" of each other, I have no idea. Why he assumes I would think something similar (just the other way) is beyond me. And do I really "continue to combine all articles into one"? You be the judge.
 * But to hopefully still get something productive out of all this, I'd like to second Mattisses invitation that other people look at those articles and related discussions and try to make sense of what is going on there. --Latebird (talk) 06:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think I have an idea where that "continue to combine all articles into one" bit might have come from. As it happens, when Mattisse split the articles again, he at first just recreated the situation before the merge, when they were entirely redundant. Yet another (so far uninvolved) editor noticed the content duplication and added merge suggestion tags. Once he noticed the ongoing discussion, he of course immediately removed them again. But in the mean time, Mattisse had already spotted the tags, and apparently attributed them to me without checking the facts first. Folks, please be a little bit more careful before throwing accusations at other people, ok? --Latebird (talk) 13:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Latebird!  Mattisse  01:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Could one or both of you point me to an approximate date / edit to look to on the histories of these pages? I'm looking at them now, and there are a lot of recent edits, so it's hard to get a handle on the chronology here. Also, if I delay replying, please poke me on my usertalk, because real life is making demands lately. Aelfthrytha (talk) 06:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The user has since appologized here for making incorrect assumptions, so it's kind of a moot point now. --Latebird (talk) 11:24, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Apology is retracted as User:Latebird continues to disrupt. He is insisting on literal translation of Russian words (no one seems to agree with each other on the translations -- I guess this is more important than writing an article) so nothing is happening except arguing. He is obstructionist and does not discuss content. I hate to desert articles that I originated and  spent a lot of time on, but perhaps this project prefers Russian language speakers to work on articles and is not welcoming of others. I have written lots of articles on Russian areas with no troubles. Hope he goes away as no good article will result from his tactics.   Mattisse  00:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The relevant discussions (I think) can be found on Talk:Ubsunur Hollow Biosphere Reserve. I don't know why Mattisse keeps accusing me of things I've never done (apparently she has difficulties consulting edit histories), or why she objects so vehemently to other people trying to figure out what the articles she contributes to really are about. Level headed opinions are certainly welcome over there. --Latebird (talk) 06:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The main Central Asia map
I was looking over the talk page for History of Central Asia and noticed a few comments about the map. Hux said that, "the main problem with the map is that it's very misleading as-is: it implies that the Soviet definition comprised Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan and that the "common modern definition" comprises only Kazakhstan (and also that the UNESCO definition doesn't comprise any of those states)."

For the "common modern definition", I had the same thought as well. I've made this version of the map, which might not be quite so confusing. Would people be okay with changing this map for the current one? Or, could someone else make a better map? Otebig (talk) 04:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I like your addition to the map. However, I think different colors or darker / bigger border lines might work better. As it is, it conveys the information, but it doesn't visually pop out -- the red disappears a bit on the southern boundary. Alas, I'm no mapmaker. Would it be beneficial find us a map specialist who might be better at these visual elements? Aelfthrytha (talk) 06:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Otebig: I think your version is a lot better than the current one and makes the different interpretations of "Central Asia" much clearer. I agree, though, that the border lines could be clearer. May I suggest making them 2px wide and also antialiased? - Hux (talk) 09:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I made the outline wider. As for the antialiasing, I have no idea how to do that, but I'm sure someone else can (or, as Aelfthrytha said, we could find a true map specialist). Otebig (talk) 10:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I've changed the maps on the pages that have one. Again, if anyone else can improve upon it, please do. Otebig (talk) 03:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the one with the black outline is clearer than the one with the red. Good job! -- Hux (talk) 02:07, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

2008 Central Asia energy crisis
I wrote an article on the current energy crisis in Central Asia, 2008 Central Asia energy crisis, which seems to be increasing in international media. Please contribute if you can. Rigadoun (talk) 21:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Somehow, that looks more like an item for Wikinews at the moment. --Latebird (talk) 03:50, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Latebird taking over articles without consultation or consensus - Is fluency in Russian required?
Is there any way to get help with this? Or is it true that a non Russian speaking person cannot work on these articles, as fluently in Russian is required? If that is true, please let me know and I will stop trying to work on these articles. Regards,  Mattisse  20:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * And where exactly did anyone claim any of this? Certainly not on Talk:Ubsunur Hollow Biosphere Reserve, which is the most likely candidate to have triggered a few rather irrational accusations similar to the above. --Latebird (talk) 08:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I note down below User:Hux is getting "the treatment" now. Mattisse  04:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Trying to make sense of the Uvs Nuur situation
I've been looking into this after reading the conversations above and since we're talking about a number of articles I think it would make sense to reach consensus here, rather than deal with five conversations on five different talk pages. So basically, as far as I can tell, the following articles are relevant to this discussion (descriptions reflect the articles as they currently stand and are not meant to imply what they should be about):

- Uvs Nuur (disambiguation): Disambig page, obviously.

- Uvs Nuur: Article about the lake called "Uvs Nuur", its geography, ecology, etc. Also has sections about the larger Uvs Nur Basin and the UNESCO World Heritage Sites in the area.

- Uvs Nuur Basin: Article about the larger geographical area of the lake's basin. Currently only a two sentence stub.

- Ubsunur Hollow: Article about the geographical hollow that is essentially coterminous with Uvs Nuur Basin, but is part of a larger area of mountainous depressions. Discusses the geography, ecology, and archeology of the area, as well as mentioning its human habitation.

- Ubsunur Hollow Biosphere Reserve: Ostensibly about a specific ecological reserve, but is almost identical to the Ubusnur Hollow article.

Now, while geographically there is a clear difference between a lake, a basin, and a hollow, that in itself does not mean that we must have three distinct articles. Article size is relevant here: there's no need to have a separate article for [topic A] if there is almost no information for it and it already fits within the scope of [related topic B]. (With geographical articles this is even more relevant when multiple topics are largely coterminous.) Should [topic A] expand too much within the article for [related topic B] then at that point it should be spun off to a new article. This is a normal part of the Wikipedia process, as I'm sure we can all agree.

So, based on the above, and what's currently in the existing articles, here's what I propose:

- Uvs Nuur (disambiguation): Remove links that point to non-existing articles (they can be added if/when the articles are created), otherwise leave unchanged.

- Uvs Nuur: Keep in a similar state to current article, i.e. discuss the lake and the flora, fauna, geography, etc., specific to it. Briefly discuss the larger area of the basin and link to that article.

- Uvs Nuur Basin: Keep. Expand to include more info about the basin and add info about the hollow, the biosphere reserve, the UNESCO sites, etc. Briefly mention the lake and link to that article.

- Ubsunur Hollow: Delete and merge relevant info into the Uvs Nuur Basin article since much of the info currently in this article is also relevant to that one. Also, there is already a precedent for having a basin article talk about such geographical features within it (e.g. Amazon Basin).

- Ubsunur Hollow Biosphere Reserve: Delete and merge relevant info into the Uvs Nuur Basin article for the same reason.

Basically, my rationale is that the Uvs Nuur Basin article should function as the "parent" article for topics related to the lake and the geographical region in general. There is enough information about the lake itself, as distinct from the basin, to justify having its own article, but at this point there is not enough to justify having separate articles for the hollow and the biosphere reserve, especially when much of the information in the Ubusnur Hollow article applies to the basin as well. At some point in the future, however, things might change (e.g. we might have a lot more info about the UNESCO sites in the area) and at that point we should spin topics off to new articles and reduce the corresponding content in Uvs Nuur Basin.

Thoughts? - Hux (talk) 02:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Strongly disagreed. Discussions of specific topics must be carried out in talk pages of the corresponding articles. And the discussion is already in progress. before you jumped in with wikilawyering. Project pages are for general organization. Instead of herding people around, why don't you write an article or two instead? `'Míkka>t 04:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. Your opinions expresed above are based on your degree of infamiliarity with the topic, which makes you to easily decide what is important and what is not and how many lines of text there may be. You are badly mistaken and I see no further point in discussing the issue with you. As I have written elsewhere I will return to the topic when the dust settles and do it properly without underinformed bickering, If surgery was like Wikipedia....  `'Míkka>t 04:49, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Minus one participant. Let's silently shed a tear for him and then continue with the actual questions at hand. --Latebird (talk) 04:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Mikkalai: I opened this discussion because it was already brought onto this talk page by another editor and it was clear from the comments that one of the reasons things were messed up is because the issue is being discussed across several talk pages. I opened this discussion up here as an attempt to help solve that problem and added my suggestions as to how the several articles could be ordered better than they currently are. Rather than recognize this attempt to help for what it is, instead I get belligerence and a total dismissal of those suggestions, without any explanation of what's wrong with them beyond the implication that I'm simply ignorant. Frankly I think that says a lot more about the poster's insecurity than anything else. What a wonderful sense of community! What a credit to the collaborative mission of this encyclopedia! *sigh*
 * Rest assured, I won't be wasting my time attempting to help with these articles as it's been made abundantly clear that their self-professed "owners" have no interest in any "outsiders" getting involved and are actively attempting to force them out. - Hux (talk) 11:36, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Minus two participants? Is anyone around here actually interested in discussing the topic? --Latebird (talk) 13:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree with Hux. As a major contributor to the articles (prior to the redirects, name changes, speedy deletion attempts, without notification or discussion) it has been made abundantly clear that my input is not wanted. These article have "owners" who only attack input from outsiders. You are experiencing a taste of treatment I received  from Latebird. Tt will only get worse if you continue.  Bow out.  I advise staying away from any project he interjects himself into.  Mattisse  14:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I've filed a formal complaint about this incessant slandering to WP:ANI. --Latebird (talk) 17:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I haven't followed this issue too closely but I agree with Hux's analysis, especially regarding merging highly specific information into a more general article that is currently a stub. It seems to me like the disagreements may stem from conflicting Wikipedia philosophies. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 02:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree as well, even if I wouldn't proceed quite as radically as Hux. If I understand the terms correctly, then "hollow" and "basin" are different aspects of approximately the same geography, so it makes sense to merge those two back into Uvs Nuur basin, as most of the listed information will apply to both. However, I think there's enough information about the protection status and its history in Ubsunur Hollow Biosphere Reserve to justify keeping that as a standalone article. The UNESCO protected site infobox should go there as well. The stuff about ecology and population etc. does not depend on the protection status, and should therefore only be detailled in the basin/hollow article. I suggest this approach among other reasons to keep the required changes minimally invasive, and in order to make future expansion easier. In any case, all the related articles should be checked with a fine toothed comb for content and sources. A surprising number of factual errors have already turned up. In some cases Uvs Nuur has been found to directly contradict the cited sources, in other cases unreliable sources are/were used. I wouldn't be surprised if the other articles were of similar "quality". --Latebird (talk) 11:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Terminology

 * If we will check Great Lakes Basin we will find an article about N.American Great Lakes drainage basin, so we need be sure about terms meaning. I will prepare (may be today) a map with Uvs Nuur drainage basin and the hollow(mn:хотгор) comparision. And we have a dozen or two хотгор=котловина more in the region from Baikal to Altai and we need a decision concerning their naming (hollow, depression, basin, valley...) Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:19, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Looking at my dictionary, I think Great Lakes Depression is the correct translation of "Их нуруудын хотгор". You'll be better able to tell if it also matches the Russian "Котловина Больших Озер". Or is there a different common English usage? Both Google and Google Books have a small number of references to "Great Lakes Hollow", but much fewer than for "depression". --Latebird (talk) 07:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Depression is possible as plain territory element. Котловина=Хотгор (Kessel in German) is plain surrounded (closed) with mountaines or hills (it has "walls"). So Котловина=Хотгор term was not used out of mountains, very often it is called "intramontaineous" Котловина=Хотгор. If hollow is closer to this sense it would be more correct.

Bogomolov.PL (talk) 09:09, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think that "depression" matches the German "Kessel" (literally = "cauldron") very well. But then, we're dealing with specialist vocabulary, so that dictionary translations may not always be the best solution. Looks like we need a native English geographer to answer that authoritatively. Maybe we can ask the WP:WikiProject Geography for help? --Latebird (talk) 17:56, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Very cool relief map! Some suggestions: For the purposes of Wikipedia, you are the author of this map, not the NASA. This also means that you can decide on your own license (or PD) and PD-USGov doesn't apply (that applies only to the underlying data, but not to what you create from them). The "no commercial use" should also go, as it conflicts both with WP policy and PD-USGov. From a visual point of view, I'd try to shift the color scale a little, so that the bottom of the basin gets a slightly greener tint. That would make the lakes stand out more clearly. --Latebird (talk) 06:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Relief and lakes source data are from NASA SRTM mission, my job was make it visible and add drainage basin watershed line. The Kessel is in Western part of dr.basin, it covers 30,000 sq.km of dr.basin 70,000 total. May be it has a sense add Kessel edge on a map? (And the same type map I can prepare for the Great Lakes Kessel).Bogomolov.PL (talk) 07:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Article History of Xinjiang
Some sweeping changes have been suggested to the content of the History of Xinjiang. Please see Talk:History_of_Xinjiang. An editor has proposed replacing it with the History of Xinjiang/Sandbox. You feedback would be appreciated. Mkdw talk 10:37, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Tajikistan
I'm wondering about WikiProject Tajikistan. When this project was first proposed in November 2006, several editors responded that they felt there wasn't enough interest or it should be a workgroup of this project, and the conversation seemed to stop there. Then in June 2007 it was created by Ibrahimjon, an editor from Tajikistan. As of now it has three members, basically no discussion, and little to no activity as far as I can tell. In the meantime, banners for the project sit cluttering up discussion pages (most of which also have a WikiProject Central Asia banner on them as well). I think it should be merged into this project (like the Uyghurs of Western China project was). I just discussed this with Chris, who is probably the most (if not only) active editor with WikiProject Tajikistan, and he said he'd support a merge.

Considering the intense discussion over the workgroups/projects last month, I want to tread lightly and discuss this before anything is done. How would others feel about such a merge? Otebig (talk) 06:18, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I am very busy due to lack of time. But I believe the project should still be there, since there are many cultural traits unique to Tajikistan. I do not think Wikipedia project Central Asia is necessarily accurate, since it would be like Wikipedia project Europe.  As more English speaking Tajiks perhaps come online, there will be more activity?  --alidoostzadeh (talk) 04:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps more people will be interested in having a separate project in the future (at which point it can easily be branched off again). It doesn't seem like that's the situation now, though, and it would be simpler and more efficient to have it part of this project for the time being. Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Otebig (talk) 05:05, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * My favored option would be to let the project retain the name of "WikiProject", like all the other groups for independent countries have, and just integrate it into the Central Asia project banner. Then, if, in the future, it were to get so large or integrate in separate functions not in that banner, it could create its own, but by including it in the Central Asia banner assessments for this project would be automatically made as well. John Carter (talk) 16:07, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Tuva
FYI: All the Tuva-related articles I could find are grouped now under Category:Tuva task force. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 18:45, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

User:BernardTom
Folks, an extremely uncooperative editor (see his talk page) automatically reverts any changes he sees to about a dozen Kazakhstan articles he believes are his property, and his English is horrid. If any of you are admins, (or if you can explain to him in Kazakh why his actions are unWikilike), can something be done? I notice on his talkpage that several have had the same problems I am having now at Coat of arms of Kazakhstan. Would you folks please look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/BernardTom before it becomes a horrid mess? All are welcome to edit Wikipedia, sure, but he doesn't see what he is doing to these articles. Please help. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * My English is also horrid, but analysis of BernardTom edits shows nonencyclopedic character of some of these edits (see his edits for Zhetysu article preface and geography). He is on a strongely Kazakh position. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 07:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Your English is just fine, and you work with others. I did not mean that as a blanket statement against non native speakers. My Kazakh is horrible, and I would not dare edit at the kz.wiki. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 07:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If you can understand the context you can add statistic figures, maps, images etc., but not text. For Belorussian or Ukranian Wiki if you know Russian or Polish. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 09:10, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I had a quick look at his contribs and most of them seem decent. Perhaps you could link to some specific diffs that you think are problematic? I'll grant you that his English isn't that great (he routinely drops definite/indefinite articles, so I'm guessing his native language is Russian), but I don't see anything hugely wrong with the general content that he's adding, i.e. he's clearly trying to make improvements so maybe it's better to simply build on what he adds and copy edit it up to a more acceptable standard. -- Hux (talk) 01:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If he drops definite/indefinite articles (as me) it is not a sign of only Slavonic mother tongue. Turkic native speakers have the same problem. I've pointed the Zhetysu edits which are not encyclopedic (he erased text portions about Russian presence, this edits are emotionally motivated), but most part of the rest looks decent. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:08, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean about his Zhetysu edit (I assume you're talking about this diff). On the one hand he's doing something that needs to be done - reworking the article from the perspective of its current title, rather than the historical name of "Semirechye". I also think he's right to cut out some of the fluff in the geography section. On the other hand, it looks like he's removed the entire history section along with every reference to the fact that it was once Russian-controlled. That kind of edit is clearly not reasonable. -- Hux (talk) 00:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 07:18, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Sassanid Empire
Sassanid Empire has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. Blnguyen  ( vote in the photo straw poll ) 05:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Project Turkmenistan
Hi, I'm new to this group, but I was interested in jumping right in and working on Turkmenistan-related articles, particularly on Turkmen culture, as I wrote a fairly extensive training manual on this subject while in the Peace Corps. However, it seems that the Project: Turkmenistan page is completely dead, and was nominated for deletion. I know that even with the new Internet cafes, Internet access is almost impossible from within Turkmenistan -- are there any expats from Turkmenistan, or others familiar with the country, who are active on this group? I don't really feel comfortable making major additions, let alone initiating articles, without the help of someone from the area. Also, finding appropriate sources could be exceedingly difficult. There is almost no published information on contemporary Turkmen culture (or contemporary Turkmen ANYTHING) other than that put out by the Turkmen government, and frankly I would not feel right citing the Ruhnama as the basis of a factual article for Wikipedia. On the other hand, the few articles in the Western press often contain blatantly wrong information. What exactly are the citation/sourcing standards for cultural information, and what is the cutoff between common sense/self-evident information and O.R. in this case? I can envision two extremes here. If I say palow is Turkmenistan's national dish and is extremely popular there, there are plenty of external sources I can find documenting this, in addition to my own experience of being fed palow at every Turkmen home I ever visited. I can also say with 100% certainty that running water is available for fewer than 24 hours a week in Turkmenbashy city, but this would be O.R. as I doubt you could find this published anywhere (other than perhaps the blogs of Peace Corps volunteers). But what kind of support would I need to write, say, about Turkmen koyneks (traditional women's dresses, worn by most women outside of cities and required for official/government functions)? If someone could point me to some guidance on this issue, I may try my hand at a few gentle expansions/edits. I will also check out the Turkmen wikipedia to see what kinds of sources they have going over there -- though my written Turkmen has never been more than rudimentary (especially the faux-"literary" language used in newspapers). Anyone interested in working with me on this? Also, incidentally, I'm moving back to Central Asia (to Kyrgyzstan) next week. Most of my friends there are Turkmen students at AUCA, so if anyone needs help with photos, source materials, or whatever, let me know. I'd love to see Wikipedia's coverage of post-Soviet Central Asia dramatically improved, and I'm happy to help with historical subjects too if for whatever something you need is only available in Bishkek. Stuffisthings (talk) 04:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The project was only newly created when someone decided to try to delete it, and it was basically created as a way to help any interested editor just know what sort of information we already have on the subject, however minimal or poor it might be. I acknowledge the level of difficulty getting any current cultural information on Turkmenistan. There was a wonderful piece on From Our Own Correspondent several years ago talking about the same issues you raised above, in which a reporter for the BBC went into Turkmenistan, I think on the invitation of the government, observed the conditions and the sometimes laughable statements of government officials regarding them, returned home and filed his report, and was subsequently told be would not be allowed to return to the country by a cabinet member because he had allegedly "lied" about conditions there. All I can really say is that if you've got any source which can be counted as reliable per WP:RS on anything, that's all we need. I think in this case we will acknowledge that the information can be less than complete, and sometimes official statements might be blatantly false, but all we can really do is the best we can with what we've got. Various other activities have kept me away from doing as much work as I would like on this and honestly a lot of other things as well, but if you ever have specific questions regarding anything, I can at least try to help where I can. John Carter (talk) 15:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

China and PRC articles request to be renamed
User:SmuckyTheCat is requesting that China be renamed, and replaced by the People's Republic of China article at "China". 70.55.88.176 (talk) 08:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's a direct link to the discussion, for those who are interested. -- Hux (talk) 03:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Draft Guidelines for Lists of companies by country - Feedback Requested
Within WikiProject Companies I am trying to establish guidelines for all Lists of companies by country, the implementation of which would hopefully ensure a minimum quality standard and level of consistency across all of these related but currently disparate articles. The ultimate goal is the improvement of these articles to Featured List status. As a WikiProject that currently has one of these lists within your scope, I would really appreciate your feedback! You can find the draft guidelines here. Thanks for your help as we look to build consensus and improve Wikipedia! - Richc80 (talk) 13:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Requesting help over Sakha related pages
I'm asking for help with Sakha related pages over constant problems with Russia team moderators about Sakha members.

Main problems are:
 * Irrational enforced cyrilicisation
 * Harsh authoritarian Eurocentristic positions from Russia team
 * Contant cleanising against the info about Omuk movement. And as the result of it a complete absence of those info here.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yakuts&limit=500&action=history the article are constatly ping-ponged about article title and some parts of content. And as the result of it the whole set of non English language pages are ping-ponged over title the same way too.

Creation of thousands of new articles about places in Asia

 * Note that this was initially posted in WP:Afghanistan but I also believe it has relevance here. Cheers!

Hello everyone! Currently a bot is being prepared to go on to create nearly 2 million articles of villages/cities/towns from all around the world. Afghanistan, being the first country on the list is the first to get that honour and after some tweaking it will go right ahead. A number of other Asian countries will then follow, which will then move on to African countries. However there currently is a dicussion going on at and there are many opinions being held by a number of people. As you guys are going to be one of the first affected, it makes sense that anyone who has an oppinion about the creation of these articles to give an oppinion there. There has been 100 articles created as a trial run for places in Afghanistan and if you are interested to look at those they can be found here: WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/Places/afghanistan/page1. Further information can be found here: WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/Places, User talk:Fritzpoll and of course the village pump link I gave initially. Thanks for your attention. Kind regards!Calaka (talk) 01:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Embassy of Uzbekistan in Washington, D.C.
Not sure where to list new articles for this project, so I'll mention it here.  APK  yada yada  21:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
 * The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
 * The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
 * A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot  ( Disable )  22:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Request Assistance with Kyrgyzstan stubs
I am currently in Kyrgyzstan. I have a camera, and I am very willing to take pictures of anything and everything that is missing from wiki. However, the is very underpopulated compared to the amount of . Could someone please tag the talkpages of stub articles of places that need pictures with Kyrgyzstan? I'd do it myself but the internet and computers here aren't going to help that happen. Aelfthrytha (talk) 10:07, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, will do. I hope you enjoy your time in Kyrgyzstan. I lived there from 2005-2007 and have many happy memories. :) -- Hux (talk) 22:05, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Articles flagged for cleanup
Currently, 2656 articles are assigned to this project, of which 484, or 18.2%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 2008-07-14.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. Subscribing is easy - just add a template to your project page. If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 08:31, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This sounds like a useful tool, I've added it to the project page. Otebig (talk) 04:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It's up and running now at WikiProject Central Asia/Cleanup listing Otebig (talk) 20:18, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Kyrgyzstan photos are here!
Hi all! I spent much of this summer traveling in Kyrgyzstan, and I've finally gotten a chance to upload my Kyrgyzstan photos to flickr. All of them are candidates for improving our project's articles on Kyrgyzstan. I would like your input on which ones are best because I'm not sure which articles to add them to or which photos are best. Please leave comments on the photos -- that way I will know to which ones you refer. Enjoy! Aelfthrytha (talk) 14:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Central Asia
Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.

We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 23:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Kremlin photos now available for use
I have received official authorisation from the Kremlin to use their site materials on Wikimedia projects under CC Attribution Unported 3.0 licence. We are now able to use any materials from the Kremlin website. If used, please upload to Commons, and use Template:Kremlin.ru. This will provide the necessary authorisation on images, and will also place materials automatically in commons:Category:Kremlin.ru. Make use of this great resource. --Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 12:35, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Chinese New Year
There is a content dispute at this article, see Talk:Chinese New Year 70.51.10.188 (talk) 04:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Pashtun people has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. YellowMonkey  ( click here to choose Australia's next top model ) 05:22, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Central Asia SVG map


I've made an SVG map of Central Asia. Please let me know if you have any comments or requests for changes. Thanks. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 17:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The colour for Russia, China etc. looks to "strong", IMHO. Yaan (talk) 13:44, 29 October 2008 (UTC)\


 * Kyrgyzstan/Tajikistan boundary in Fergana Valley is definitely incorrect.
 * Aral Sea is too large, actual area declined (Eastern part especially).
 * Garabogazköl is not shown.
 * Projection shifts Eastern part of the map to the North, map was rotated counter-clockwise.
 * Area definition problem - 5 former Soviet republics are the Western part of the Central Asia (or the Central Asia narrow definition). Eastern part lays inside the Chinese, Mongolian and Russian boundaries.
 * And colors problem - background color is too strong, I see. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 14:34, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Great job, I like it! It's lacking in precision, sure, but then if its purpose is to provide a rough indication that's fine; not every map needs to (or should be) absolutely accurate. Color-wise, I don't see a problem with the color for Russia, China, etc. However, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan should be a bolder color, I think; right now they're a bit lost compared to the other three. I also agree that Garabogazköl should be shown. You also have some border weirdness going on there: it looks like the Kazakh/Uzbek border both crosses the Aral see in a straight line and runs along the southern shore. Which is it? Finally, I disagree that there is an area definition problem: politically, "Central Asia" means these five, FSU republics. The term is universally understood both within and outside the area and since the map title is "Central Asia - political map" I don't see any problem with that. -- Hux (talk) 15:26, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree with all of the above -- both the criticism and the praise. Most important issues in my mind:
 * Fix Tajikistan-Kyrgyzstan-Uzbekistan border in the Fergana Valley: e.g., see the map in Tajikistan for details;
 * Show Garabogazköl on the east shore of the Caspian Sea.
 * Perhaps add a north-south pointer?
 * --Zlerman (talk) 15:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

This map problems listed are mostly coming from the source CIA map (outdated: Garabogazköl is dry, Aral Sea is large) and its projection. Usually in Wiki we are creating maps in Mercator projection, so no need show North arrow. A good idea can be using of the Google Map screenshot (or Yahoo Map where at the satellite image Caspian and Aral seas have more actual shape) for boundaries and lakes vectorising, but Aral Sea shape and Uzbekistan/Kazakhstan boundary we need redraw from the respective Wiki articles. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 17:35, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your help everyone. Yes, I just based it off this map. The map in Tajikistan is based on this one If it's more accurate, I could essentially crop it to the appropriate size, but zoom in and take a look before you answer - it's not very clean at that level. The colours are standards from WikiProject_Maps, so I don't see any reason to change them. I didn't add Garabogazköl because it seemed like quite a small body of water and I didn't think people would be too concerned, but if you think it's important, I can trace it in. I can fix the Aral Sea if you can give me something to work from, and the Fergana Valley, if you tell me what to look for. I've never been to Central Asia and I know almost nothing about it - I decided to make the map to learn about the region, not because I know what I'm doing. thanks again. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 21:10, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "Tajikstan" and "Fergana Valley" in the comments refer to the same thing. This map is correct: notice how the yellow arm of Tajikistan stretches north-east between the purple (Uzb) and the pink (Kyr). This is what you should to to the small turquoise appendage of Tajikistan between Uzb (pink) and Kyr (green): make it longer and make it cover some of the green where it adjoins the pink of Uzb. Hope this is clear. If not, write for more info. --Zlerman (talk) 03:06, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh! Sorry, I'm not sure how I did that. Thanks everyone for pointing it out. It should be fixed now. I've also removed the border line along the south coast of the Aral Sea. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 16:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Dear Themightyquill! Using of the Wikipedia will be a good idea in the mapping process. Using of online Yahoo Maps or Google Map is a good idea also. Using of outdate CIA map is not a good idea, I guess. The world changes.
 * "I didn't add Garabogazköl because it seemed like quite a small body of water and I didn't think people would be too concerned, but if you think it's important, I can trace it in." - you wrote. The Garabogazköl is a large water body (18,000 sq km). It is small at the outdated CIA map you used. Have a look on the Garabogazköl article.
 * "I can fix the Aral Sea if you can give me something to work from, and the Fergana Valley, if you tell me what to look for" you wrote. Have a look on the Aral Sea article.Bogomolov.PL (talk) 07:05, 5 November 2008 (UTC)


 * On Garabogazkol, you may find it useful to consult the map here. It traces the 1930 shoreline, which is supposed to be the same as today's shoreline. --Zlerman (talk) 07:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Here you can find how actual shape of the Garabogazköl cowers the 1930 shoreline, and dryed Aral Sea, and large Sarygamysh Lake.Bogomolov.PL (talk) 10:18, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Using Yahoo Maps and/or GoogleMaps is questionable, since they aren't free content. This has been discussed at Wikiproject maps, and even tracing copyright maps isn't really acceptable. Large vs small body of water is relative, isn't it? Compared to the Caspian Sea, the Garabogazkol is small. At any rate, it's now included, I can make it bigger if it has grown, and trace from this free NASA satellite image, but it won't be easy, and may take some time. Same for the Aral Sea. It's hard to match an image to a map, especially when the most noticeable landmarks (lakes/seas) have changed. I'll do my best. Thanks, TheMightyQuill (talk) 00:46, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * On your problem with the Aral Sea: by looking at the photos in the article it seems to me that the whole central part has now disappeared and we are left with the two appendages top and left. If this is so (check other photos), then really no retracing is necessary on your map -- just deleting a largish portion. On Garabogazkol, it must be added. Look at older maps and photos and do your best to add this very distinctive "bubble" shape to the right of the main contour. Check the proportions (relative to the Caspian) and draw it in as best as you can. But it's a must. Good luck. --Zlerman (talk) 01:38, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "Using Yahoo Maps and/or GoogleMaps is questionable, since they aren't free content. This has been discussed at Wikiproject maps, and even tracing copyright maps isn't really acceptable." you wrote. You are missing using (redraw) and copying (both in a raster or traced raster form). And don't forget the scale of your map - very small scale, isn't it? It is so easy to redraw every shape in this scale. But when I was talking about Yahoo Maps and/or GoogleMaps using I've mentioned checking your map. Yahoo Maps and/or GoogleMaps are completely acceptable as the reference sources.
 * But if you will manually vectorize this map with a generalization of its content and next transform this vector set to any different projection - this should be a new map in every portion, your map.
 * About the Aral Sea


 * Actually there are three basins:
 * North Aral Sea, fed by the Syr Darya river. Outflow from this basin is stopped with the Kokaral dam (southern tip of the basin).
 * Former Shibas bay, small basin to SW from North Aral (half-way from North to South Aral)
 * South Aral Sea, where are two parts: deep Western basin and wet salt pan as Eastern basin. Natural canal connects both parts. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:35, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * An other one problem - Caspian Sea shape . After Caspian Sea transgression a large bay was born at NE shore (former Myortvy Kultuk=>Tsesarevicha=>Komsomolets=>Myortvy Kultuk). You can see it at the satellite imagery of Yahoo Maps and/or GoogleMaps and at the official topomap. This bay is too large to be omitted, I guess. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 09:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * NASA imagery via USGS is here
 * and Southern portion + Northern portion November 3 2008. This imagery is from NASA, so you can use it.Bogomolov.PL (talk) 09:47, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Bogomolov, I'm not sure I understand how to manually vectorize this map. You seem to have a better grasp of this than I do, so feel free to edit my map to your liking. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 15:14, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Almost all existing maps were made by manual vectorizing, not tracing. If you want be active in mapping you need a vector editing soft. May be it is possible to find this kind of soft free - I don't know.
 * "Please let me know if you have any comments or requests for changes" - you said. You've got my comments and requests. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 05:46, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well then, thanks for your generous help. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 20:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Central Asia map: let's be pragmatic
Two major things still need to be done on your map: (a) draw in Garabogazkol; (b) update the shape of the Aral Sea. You have done a great job correcting the Taj-Uzb-Kyr borders in the Fergana Valley, so why not use the same rough-and-ready approach to fix the two remaining items? Your map is anyhow not more than a rough sketch, so I would not strive for cartographic precision -- or you will never finish what you have set out to do. For the Aral Sea you have a great recent photograph (here on the talk page and in the Aral Sea article); use it to update (roughly) the shape of the sea. For Garabogazkol take any old map of the Caspian Sea (from before the dam was built) or any recent satellite photograph and draw it in (again roughly). The result will not be cartographically perfect, but it will probably be better than what you have now. Try it. Show us the next draft of your map. Good luck. --Zlerman (talk) 05:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the vote of confidence, Zlerman. I've enlarged Garabogazkol, and changed the Aral Sea. I don't know if it was scaling, or that the original map was inaccurate, but the North Aral is now quite a bit larger. Thoughts/comments? - TheMightyQuill (talk) 20:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Good work. Much better than before -- although of course still not perfect. Two things to work on before you return to tweaking Garabogazkol: (a) concentrate on Aral Sea, show it to others, discuss -- I am not sure that what you are showing is the true picture; (b) there is a huge lake between the Caspian and the Aral at the Turkmen-Uzbek border (see previous comments), so it would be nice if you could somehow show it on your map (at least as a blue blob, but at the right place). Cheers. --Zlerman (talk) 01:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Sarygamysh Lake was mentioned. And really it is the scale problem with Aral Sea shape. And Myortvy Kultuk bay is necessary. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:17, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I traced the Aral Sea from the NASA photo above. It's probably not perfect, but it's hard for me to adjust for the scaling on the CIA map. I'll see if I can include Sarygamgysh lake. Bogomolov, I'm not sure I understand where Myortvy Kultuk bay is. Can you try to tell me what I'm looking at in the images you've posted? - TheMightyQuill (talk) 01:09, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Myortvy Kultuk bay is here Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:09, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * added, finally. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 16:43, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Lake Tcharvak or Lake Charvak?
Lake Charvak is an artificial lake in Tashkent Oblast, Uzbekistan. It is covered by the article Lake Tcharvak, which uses the French transliteration Tcharvak instead of the conventional and more common English transliteration Charvak. The reason is historical: the article was created in April 2008 around a great photo of the lake, which came from a French source and accordingly referred to the lake as Tcharvak (Lac Tcharvak.jpg). Of course Lake Charvak redirects to Lake Tcharvak, but I still find the principal name awkward and possibly against Wikipedia naming conventions. My suggestion: move the content of Lake Tcharvak in its entirety to Lake Charvak and create a redirect from Lake Tcharvak to Lake Charvak. Is this acceptable? Please discuss below. --Zlerman (talk) 03:55, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:14, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Cautious agree - will defer to those with more Uzbek transliteration expertise. Aelfthrytha (talk) 03:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree. From the link at the bottom of the article, it's "Чарвак" in Russian, which transliterates to "Charvak" in English. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same in Uzbek as well. -- Hux (talk) 16:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This lake in Uzbek is CHORVOQ Bogomolov.PL (talk) 17:24, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism
Could someone take a look at Iradan? It claims that the population of the village is 5 million (roughly the population of the country) and that the area is ludicrously large. Cites a website that doesn't have info. Needs fixing, but I don't want to do it unilaterally. Aelfthrytha (talk) 07:41, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks like a simple mistake based on incorrect reading of tageo.com. The information on this site is for Kyrgyzstan as a whole, not for Iradan. This is fairly obvious from the structure of the page on the screen (and from comparison of the numbers with other country sources). I will see if I can find anything about Iradan specifically, but I doubt it. --Zlerman (talk) 08:19, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Clarification Help

 * Kalmion is an article referencing an ambiguity about Uzbek enclaves in Kyrgyzstan. Can someone take a look and clarify it? Aelfthrytha (talk) 07:44, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Kalmion (Калмион) does not seem to exist. Instead we have Khalmion (Халмион). But this seems to be a Kyrgyz village in Batken Oblast, Kadamjay Raion, very near the border with Uzbekistan. I infer that this is a Kyrgyz village from the numerous complaints by Kyrgyz authorities and people that Uzbekistan taxes transit buses that go from Khalmion to Bishkek across Uzbek territory. Uzbeks would not tax buses from an Uzbek enclave (and Uzbeks would not go to Bishkek), but then maybe I am wrong...
 * I have found a statement in a Kyrgyz source that there are actually FOUR Uzbek enclaves in Kyrgyzstan. Of these four, two are fairly large -- Sokh and Shakhimardan, and two are absolutely tiny, located within the thickness of the Uzbek-Kyrgyz border line on the map. I can see them: one is between Sokh and the Kyrgyz town of Chon-Kara north of Sokh; the other is north-west of Kadamjay (the Kyrgyz town), between Chimion and Vuadil in Uzbekistan. On my map these two tiny enclaves do not have a name: we need a better map to identify them properly. Will let you know if eventually I discover how these two stamp-sized enclaves are called. See also Batken Province for a local list of enclaves/exclaves (more focused than the general list cited in the Khalmion article, but same problems). --Zlerman (talk) 09:20, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Here are two news items (in Russian) that demonstrate the status of Khalmion as a Kyrgyz village, and not an Uzbek enclave: Khalmion and other villages in South Kyrgyzstan now covered by BITEL cellular network and construction of a Kyrgyz bypass highway through Khalmion. Both items are from February 2007. --Zlerman (talk) 13:00, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The four Uzbek enclaves in Kyrgyzstan -- all administratively part of Fergana Province -- are clearly shown on this map. The small enclave north of Sokh is administratively classified as IX, i.e., it is part of Sokh District. Perhaps it does not have an official name of its own. It would be necessary to get a more detailed map to see what villages are located within this small enclave of "North Sokh". I do not have access to such a map at this point in time. --Zlerman (talk) 13:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Anan'yevo has a question about the spelling of the name and legends associated with the town. Also needs clarification. Aelfthrytha (talk) 08:03, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Spelling OK: the name of this place is Ананьево (in Russian), which is transliterated as Anan'yevo. The place looks perfectly legit, on the bank of Issyk Kul', and its area code is 3942, so we can actually call... Will let you know if I find anything about the Saint Matthew legend. --Zlerman (talk) 08:29, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oodles of stuff on St. Matthew's burial place on Google under "Saint Matthew Issyk Kul", but everything seems to be blog level. Even that not necessarily linked to Anan'yevo, but to Isyk Kul Lake in general. --Zlerman (talk) 10:08, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Attention Kyrgyz Speakers
Lots of stubs for Kyrgyz locations (cities, towns, villages) have been created recently. Unfortunately, basically none of them have Russian or Kyrgyz script versions of their names. Could someone or several someones (not me because I would muck it up) start chipping away at them? Aelfthrytha (talk) 19:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)