Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football/Archive 27

Major college football conferences and teams in pre-divisional era
In recent months, made a series of edits to national college football season articles (e.g. 1955 college football season) reorganizing the conference standings templates and adding a designation reading "For this article, major conferences defined as those including at least one state flagship public university and the Ivy League." This has had the effect of demoting the Missouri Valley Conference to minor status and promoting the North Central Conference and Yankee Conference to major status. I believe this contravenes how the teams in these conferences were actually designated. I recall seeing an NCAA document a while back that lists which teams had "major" status from the 1930s until the beginning of NCAA divisions in the late 1950s. Does anyone know where I can find that document?

On a related note, I've been reorganizing 1949 college football season as I've been creating a number of 1949 team season articles to combat the Template:Cfb link call crisis there. In particular, see the "Minor conference summaries" section, which I've cleaned up and expanded from the long-standing version of the table. I plan to create a similar table for the major conferences. Let me know if you have any thoughts. Jweiss11 (talk) Jweiss11 (talk) 18:09, 28 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Yes, I have made the edits mentioned. The status of "major" and "minor" conferences in these pre-divisional annual articles seemed very arbitrary, and so I was trying to come up with a metric that could be used to define the conferences. I welcome any and all conversation on this topic, even if it leads to my changes being reversed or altered. I would also like to see the NCAA document mentioned if it exists. Ben76266 (talk) 21:13, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Even in the years before the NCAA College Division was formed for football c. 1959, the NCAA statitistics bureau (?) drew a distinction for statistical purposes between "major" or "minor" programs. That division has some level of official sanction to it. Cbl62 (talk) 21:32, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Anyone in a article-creating mood?
Hi, for anyone who is feeling an urge to create new articles for this project and for NFL football, there are a ton of requested articles at Requested articles/Sports/American football for a variety of subjects, from players and coaches to rivalries and terminology. Some of these have been lingering around for awhile with no action. Feel free to be bold, help create some new articles and expand Wikipedia's coverage of American football! Fretyr (talk) 16:44, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Junior college national champions
Junior college (Juco) football teams almost never receive the SIGCOV needed to pass muster under WP:GNG. Juco national champions appear to be an exception where sufficient SIGCOV can sometimes be found. We now have a template of Juco national champions in case anyone is interested in doing work in this area: Cbl62 (talk) 03:54, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Kadyn Proctor (and future players doing the same shit)
Hi everyone. As perhaps you know, the MF Kadyn Proctor just re-entered to the transfer portal and returned to Alabama. He was officially enrolled with the Hawkeyes, but... should we add Iowa to his Infobox? I mean, this isn't like the NFL, where players can be members of teams only in the preseason, in CFB there's no preseason.

I think is better not show it in the Infobox, it'd be weird if it is displayed:
 * Alabama (2023, 2024–present)
 * Iowa (2024)

Or


 * Alabama (2023)
 * Iowa (2024)
 * Alabama (2024–present)

Perhaps it's only me, but I prefer just show:
 * Alabama (2023–present)

It is more clear, specially because he does not even play a snap with Iowa (just went to make more money, but that ain't the matter).

Additionally, the transfer portal is out of control, too many players are transferring multiple times in the same offseason. What's the next? (e.g.)
 * Ohio State (2024)
 * Texas (2024)
 * USC (2024)
 * LSU (2024)

IMO, if they don't play a game with any team, it shouldn't be displayed in the Infobox. Sergio Skol (talk) 18:16, 17 April 2024 (UTC)


 * I'd say if they aren't on the team for any games/any part of a season, it shouldn't be listed in the infobox. glman (talk) 18:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Marcus Dupree is listed as going to Oklahoma and not his later transfered school (USM).-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 23:04, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

All-Americans: missing articles
As part of my series on developing redlink lists for likely notable football players (see 1 2 3 4 5 6), I wondered how many selections to the College Football All-America Team are missing articles. It seems only 1889-1895, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2020 are complete. In case anyone wants to work on any, here's what I've got, based on each All-America article (will periodically update over the next few days). Note that I'm only including first-team selections as those are most likely to be notable; I'm also bolding any who were mutltiple-year first-team choices, and italicizing those who were first-team choices by multiple selectors:


 * 1896:
 * Edward Crowdis - Princeton - G
 * Shaw - Harvard - G
 * 1897:
 * John Babcock Moulton - Harvard - E
 * George Winthrop Bouve - Harvard - G
 * George Cadwalader - Yale - C
 * George Young - Cornell - QB
 * Powell Wheeler - Princeton - FB
 * 1898:
 * N. T. Folwell - Penn - E
 * Francis Douglas Cochrane - Harvard - E
 * Leicester Warren - Harvard - HB
 * 1899:
 * H. Wheeler - Princeton - FB
 * Edward G. Bray - Lafayette - HB


 * 1900:
 * Sherman L. Coy - Yale - E
 * James Lawrence - Harvard - T
 * 1901:
 * Charles Sprague Sargent - Harvard - C
 * Marshall S. Reynolds - Penn - HB
 * 1902:
 * Harold Metcalf - Yale - HB
 * Morgan H. Bowman - Yale - FB
 * 1903:
 * Alfred Brewster - Cornell - QB
 * Harold Metcalf - Yale - HB
 * 1904:
 * Chester T. Neal - Yale - E
 * Thomas W. Hammond - Army - E
 * James Bush - Wisconsin - E
 * Short - Princeton - G
 * Walton W. Thorp - Minnesota - G
 * Clint Roraback - Yale - C
 * John M. Haselwood - Illinois - C
 * Lydig Hoyt - Yale - HB
 * Marshall Reynolds - Penn - HB
 * W. C. Leavenworth - Yale - HB
 * Walter L. Foulke - Princeton - HB
 * 1905:
 * F. Hobson - Penn - G
 * David Main - Dartmouth - HB
 * A. Rex Flinn - Yale - FB
 * 1906:
 * Bartol Parker - Harvard - C
 * 1907:
 * Charles H. Watson - Cornell - E
 * Edwin J. Donnelly - Trinity - T
 * W. J. Phillips - Princeton - C
 * Edward L. McCallie - Cornell - HB
 * John Glaze - Dartmouth - HB
 * 1908:
 * Claude Fisher - Syracuse - E
 * George Kennedy - Dartmouth - E
 * Gilbert Goodwin Browne - Harvard - E
 * Rudolph Siegling - Princeton - T
 * Samuel Hoar - Harvard - G
 * Orlo L. Waugh - Syracuse - G
 * Edward Rich - Dartmouth - G
 * Ernest Frederocl Ver Wiebe - Harvard - HB
 * 1909:
 * Lawrence Dunlap Smith - Harvard - E


 * 1910:
 * Lawrence Dunlap Smith - Harvard - E
 * Richard Plimpton Lewis - Harvard - E
 * Edward J. Daly - Dartmouth - E
 * Springer H. Brooks - Yale - E
 * Tom Piollet - Penn State - E
 * James W. "Jim" Scully - Yale - T
 * Lothrop "Ted" Withington - Harvard - T
 * Ralph W. "Bud" Sherwin - Dartmouth - T
 * Homer Dutter - Illinois - T
 * Rudy Probst - Syracuse - T
 * Joseph L. Wier - West Point - G
 * T. S. Wilson - Princeton - G
 * Glenn D. Butzer - Illinois - G
 * Effingham Morris - Yale - C
 * Ralph Galvin - Pittsburgh - C
 * John Twist - Illinois - C
 * Harry Hartman - Syracuse - C
 * Forsman - Lafayette - C
 * James Scott - Penn - QB
 * Schef - Illinois - QB
 * V. Ballou - Princeton - QB
 * James Dean - Wisconsin - QB
 * G. H. Fletcher - Purdue - QB
 * Fred "Tex" Ramsdell - Penn - HB
 * John Rosenwald - Minnesota - HB
 * William Crawley - Chicago - HB
 * Reuben Johnson - Minnesota HB
 * 1911:
 * Lawrence Dunlap Smith - Harvard - E
 * Edward J. Daly - Dartmouth - E
 * A. Harry Kallett - Syracuse - E
 * Chauncey Oliver - Illinois - E
 * Sampson Burd - Carlisle - E
 * Jim Scully - Yale - T
 * Leonard Frank - Minnesota - T
 * William Edward Munk - Cornell - T
 * Sylvester V. Shonka - Nebraska - T
 * Greig - Swarthmore - T
 * Rudy Probst - Syracuse - T
 * Charles J. Robinson - Minnesota - G
 * Ray Wakeman - Navy - G
 * George Howe - Navy - G
 * Horace Scruby - Chicago - G
 * Pomeroy T. Francis - Yale - G
 * Willis "Fat" O'Brien - Iowa - C
 * John "Keckie" Moll - Wisconsin - QB
 * Preston Doane Fogg - Syracuse - QB
 * Reuben Martin Rosenwald - Minnesota - HB
 * Walter Camp Jr. - Yale - HB (yes, the son of that Walter Camp)
 * Clark Sauer - Chicago - HB
 * Jesse Philbin - Yale - FB
 * Stancil "Possum" Powell - Carlisle - FB
 * Wallace De Witt - Princeton - FB
 * 1912:
 * K. P. Gilchrist - Navy - E
 * Francis Joseph O'Brien - Harvard - E
 * Phillips - Princeton - T
 * Rip Shenk - Princeton - G
 * Ray L. Bennett - Dartmouth - G
 * Carroll T. Cooney - Yale - G
 * George T. Howe - Navy - G
 * Gerard Timothy Driscoll - Harvard - G
 * Howard L. Benson - Lafayette - C
 * Henry Burchell Gardner - Harvard - QB
 * Wallace "Butch" De Witt - Princeton - HB
 * 1913:
 * W. H. Fritz - Cornell - E
 * Benjamin F. Avery - Yale - E
 * Francis Joseph O'Brien - Harvard - E
 * John S. Pendleton - Yale - G
 * Jimmie Munns - Cornell - G
 * William Marting - Yale - C
 * Pete Garlow - Carlisle - C
 * Walter Simpson - Penn - C
 * Paul Russell - Chicago - QB
 * 1914:
 * Red Brann - Yale - E
 * Reginald Bovill - Washington & Jefferson - E
 * Edwin Stavrum - Wisconsin - E
 * Pete Maxfield - Lafayette - T
 * Will Burton - Kansas - T
 * Wilbur Shenk - Princeton - G
 * Harry Routh - Purdue - G
 * Boles Rosenthal - Minnesota - C
 * Willard Cool - Cornell - C
 * Alexander D. Wilson - Yale - QB
 * Malcolm Justin Logan - Harvard - QB
 * William H. Tow - Amherst - QB
 * Paul Russell - Chicago - QB
 * Sammy Gross - Iowa - QB
 * Wilbur Hightower - Northwestern - QB
 * Louis E. Pickerel - Ohio State - QB
 * Andrew Toolan - Williams - HB
 * Dick Rutherford - Nebraska - HB
 * Marcus Wilkinson - Syracuse - HB
 * Carroll Knowles - Yale - HB
 * Moore - Princeton - HB
 * Gray - Chicago - HB
 * Carl Philippi - Cornell - FB
 * Campbell "Honus" Graf - Ohio State - FB
 * 1915:
 * Jack "Red" Lamberton - Princeton - E
 * Ernest William Soucy - Harvard - E
 * Maurice M. Witherspoon - Washington & Jefferson - T
 * Nelson "Pie" Way - Yale - T
 * Dave Tibbott - Princeton - HB
 * Red Wilkinson - Syracuse - HB
 * Anderson - Colgate - HB
 * Edward H. Driggs - Princeton - FB
 * 1916:
 * Richard Harte - Harvard - E
 * Charles Highley - Princeton - E
 * William Lippard McLean - Princeton - T
 * DeVitalis - Brown - T
 * Louis Seagrave - Washington - T
 * Walter Herber Wheeler - Harvard - T
 * Lawrence Fox - Yale - G
 * Charles Henning - Penn - G
 * Christopher Schlachter - Syracuse - G
 * Alfred Gennert - Princeton - C
 * Claire Long - Minnesota - HB

BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Many of those listed are persons named to Outing magazine's annual "Roll of Honor". That's not the same as being a first-team All-American. Indeed, Outing selected multiple players at each position without any first-, second-, third-, or fourth-team etc. designations. Cbl62 (talk) 22:20, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Ugh... going to have to re-do this list then... BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

1956 NCAA College Division football season
This article starts with the statement: "The 1956 NCAA College Division football season saw the NCAA split member schools into two divisions" (a reference to NCAA University Division and NCAA College Division). Is that really true? While the University vs. College split clearly existed in basketball, yielding two tournaments in the spring of 1957, I'm not seeing anything in contemporary newspaper articles that indicates the NCAA "split member schools" in football for the 1956 fall season. NCAA football records (here) make only passing references to College Division, such as "For what was then known as College Division teams" in speaking of the pre-Division II era (here, page 63). Clearly, there was a distinction between major-college and small-college programs, but I'm not seeing sourcing that indicates an "NCAA College Division" (especially as a proper name) existed for the 1956 college football season. Input welcome, especially from editors who may be familiar with this era. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 21:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I've raised this before. There was no football "College Division" in 1956 or, if I recall correctly, 1957 either. These articles really should be deleted. Cbl62 (talk) 21:59, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The "College Division" concept was originally created, as I recall, as a mechanism to divide the NCAA basketball tournament between higher and lower level programs. The concept did not expand to football until at least a couple years later. Cbl62 (talk) 22:03, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Prior discussion at User talk:Jweiss11/Archives/2020. We dropped the ball in fixing the error back then, but we should do so now. I continue to believe that the 1956 and 1957 "College Division" articles should be merged back into the general 1956 and 1957 general college football season articles.  Cbl62 (talk) 22:10, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Starting with UPI for the 1958 season, and joined by AP beginning with the 1960 season, there were "small college" polls (as documented in 1958 small college football rankings, and later). But I do not see that the NCAA recognized "Small College" as an official designation or that it existed as a proper name (in a football context), in the way that Division II and Division III did from 1973 onward. I'd be happy to help with any cleanup efforts; guidance / direction welcome. Dmoore5556 (talk) 22:16, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It's been about four years since the prior discussion, but I thought it was arguable starting at some point that there was an NCAA "College Division" through the 1960s. But what I recall being very clear is that there was no such thing as 1956 NCAA College Division football season or 1957 NCAA College Division football season. At a minimum, those two should be deleted and/or redirected. Cbl62 (talk) 22:26, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * An even earlier discussion on the matter in 2009 found sourcing (e.g., this, this, this, this) for separate "University" and "College Divisions" from 1962 forward. See early discussion here: User talk:Jweiss11/Archives/2019. Thus, it is pre-1962 "College Division" articles that are most problematic and appear to be consist of WP:OR. Cbl62 (talk) 22:46, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks—these are helpful, but do not indicate if or when a College Division in football was formally created by the NCAA, leaving us with the distinct possibility it was a term of convenience for media and statistics. Within those cited sources: this source from 1963 uses "college division" in the lower case and speaks of the "so-called university division" (if it formally existed, it wouldn't be "so-called"); this source from 1966 speaks only of a university division in basketball and states that "major" football programs are designated by the Football Writers Association of America; and this source from 1969 makes an extremely dubious statement that college and university divisions were created "33 years ago", which would be 1936. More review is needed, which I'll try to do over the next few days.... Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:29, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The reference to "33 years ago" is to the time period in the 1930s when the NCAA Service Bureau began issuing separate statistics for "major college" and "small college" programs. This small/major distinction had the official imprimatur of the NCAA. The Service Bureau continued to publish these separate "major" and "small" college stats for decades. Cbl62 (talk) 06:07, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that helps. It seems the writer of the 1969 article (this one) confused the longer-standing statistical differentiation with the more-recent divisions. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:43, 7 May 2024 (UTC)


 * The 1960 NCAA records book contains separate sections for "Major-College Statistics" (page 63) and "Small-College Statistics" (page 71). The Small-College review of the 1959 season by Danny Hill of the National Collegiate Athletic Bureau opens with the explainer:
 * I unfortunately don't have any of the records books from the 1950s to check, maybe another editor here does.
 * PK-WIKI (talk) 23:39, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The "small college" vs "major college" distinction is something different from the "University Division" and "College Division". The major/small college distinction dates back to, I think, the late 1930s with the NCAA keeping separate statistics for small college and major college players. Cbl62 (talk) 23:46, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok, in that case the 1961 NCAA book continues the "Major & Small" statistics sections, and has a single "1961 NCAA-Member Schedules" section. I don't have a copy of the 1962 book. The 1963 book still has Major & Small statistics, but then "1963 University Division Schedules and Records" and "1963 College Division Schedules and Records". The next book I have is 1966, which now has "Major College Statistics" and "College Division Statistics", then separate University & College Schedules and Records sections. PK-WIKI (talk) 00:06, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Neutral question — were those books published by the NCAA, or by another entity about NCAA football? Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:13, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Published by the NCAA; the "Official Collegiate Football Record Book". Here is the 1963 guide cover and publisher page but without all of the content. I uploaded the covers and national championship pages from many of these books to the table at College football national championships. PK-WIKI (talk) 00:36, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Published by the NCAA; the "Official Collegiate Football Record Book". Here is the 1963 guide cover and publisher page but without all of the content. I uploaded the covers and national championship pages from many of these books to the table at College football national championships. PK-WIKI (talk) 00:36, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Dmoore5556 and Cbl62, thanks for bringing this up. This has been in the back of my mind to return to for a while. I think what you are proposing is that we merge 1956 NCAA College Division football season and 1956 NCAA University Division football season into one article and the like for 1957, at least. What do we do with 1956 NAIA football season? Leave it alone? If so, is the target of the merge 1956 NCAA football season? Or do we merge all three articles into 1956 college football season? The latter merge of all three articles into one will induce a cfb link call crisis. We still have such crises on many season articles from late 1920s thru 1955. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:05, 6 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Actually, I am more comfortable with renaming 1956 NCAA College Division football season as 1956 small college football season, and continuing such naming through whatever seasons are not well-sourced as having been conducted under College Division naming. (I prefer how Template:NCAA football rankings navbox names seasons.) I have more digging to do, but it unclear that College Division was ever formally defined by the NCAA, other than basketball. If may be justified via WP:COMMONNAME, but certainly not for the 1956 and 1957 seasons. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Dmoore5556, note that articles like 1958 small college football rankings reflect the most common naming of these rankings, and that these rankings included both NCAA (College Division) and NAIA teams. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:12, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks. When instituted in 1958 (source), the small-college rankings covered the 519 institutions not designated as "major" by the Football Writers Association of America (there were 109 such "major" programs). If we were creating 1958 college football articles from scratch, 1958 major college football season and 1958 small college football season would seem to be appropriate (the source notes that with regards to NCAA and NAIA membership, some teams belonged to just one, some teams belonged to both, and some teams belonged to neither). Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC)


 * By 1962, it appears that the "University Division"/"College Division" was a real thing recognized as such by the NCAA. In this 1962 piece, no less an authority than NCAA executive director Walter Byers refers to "our University and College divisions" and notes that there are 140 schools playing football in the University Division and 370 programs competing in the college division. Cbl62 (talk) 06:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks; I've seen that quote, but corroboration is lacking. That is the only newspaper article containing such a statement by Byers—searching newspapers.com for 1962 articles containing "university division" "college division" and "Walter Byers" yields only six hits, and none of the other five corroborate what Tommy Devine of the Miami News wrote. It is implausible that such a structure existed for NCAA football in 1962, yet only one columnist from one newspaper wrote about it. Perhaps there are other articles, using different wording, but I've not been able to find them, at least so far.


 * The most authoritative sourcing I've been able to find, so far, is this document from the NCAA, a 2012 summary of Division II. On page 3, there are the "Regional Championship Results", with a section lead stating "Before 1973, there was no Division II Football Championship. Instead, four regional bowl games were played in order to provide postseason action for what then were called NCAA College Division member institutions. Following are the results of those bowl games:" This document and contemporary accounts of the noted bowl games—of which there are various newspaper articles referring to, for example, the Tangerine Bowl as the "NCAA College Division Atlantic Coast playoff game" (source)—give us solid ground for the 1964 season through the creation of Division II / Division III. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:08, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That strikes me as further corroborating that the "College Division" was a real thing, at least in the 1960s. No? Cbl62 (talk) 00:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 1964 and later, yes. Before 1964 remains murky. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * After a bunch of additions review, I've found there was an NCAA College Division Football Committee; it first shows up in January 1964 (example) and mentions of it can be found in newspapers into 1973 (example) with only a few stray mentions later. This article in August 1963 stated "The college division football program, still subject to ratification at the January 1964 NCAA convention, provides for regional championship games beginning 1964." I will start a new topic with a suggestion, as this discussion is now several layers deep. Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:10, 8 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I have started a page at WikiProject College football/Major vs small college compendium where we can collect findings on a year-by-year basis on which schools were designated by the NCAA Service Bureau as major vs. small. As the NCAA is an authoritative source, this data can be used to split articles like 1954 college football season (also to divide the yearly regional independent templates between small and major. Cbl62 (talk) 00:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It would be nice to see some sort of official NCAA documentation and/or definitive encyclopedic work from the era. I've been building a list of archived official college football guides here: WikiProject College football/Archived yearbooks. The 1971 issue explicitly refers to College and University Divisions. I haven't found any such guides from the sensitive time period (1956–1964-ish). The NCAA website also has a lot of team summary reports from the years in question, e.g. https://stats.ncaa.org/team/108/stats/13015 (1963 UC Davis Aggies football team). While that archived report has a file name that refers the "College Division", the 1963 document itself does not make such a reference. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I think it's worth considering: what makes a "season", to that point that independent articles are warranted? Clearly today there are, for example, independent rankings, playoffs, and even administrative rules (e.g. number of athletic scholarships) that are specific to the various NCAA football levels from Division III through Division I FBS. Something akin to that existed from 1964 onward, with the start of the College Division regional finals and a governing entity (NCAA College Division Football Committee). Prior to 1964, there's a general entity known as "college football", which did not conduct or administer "seasons" at different levels—who was considered "major" seems to have been based on the opinion of the FWAA, there were conferences with a mix of major and non-major teams, and the various teams that competed belonged the NCAA and/or NAIA (sometimes one, sometimes both, sometimes neither). The closest thing to delineate different levels are the "small college" polls of UPI (starting in 1958) and the AP (starting in 1960) and the statistical delineation of major and small-college by the NCAA Service Bureau dating back to, apparently, the late 1930s. But I question whether that's an indication that different "seasons" of competition were taking place, vs. wire services and the NCAA statisicians felt it made sense to look at Notre Dame, Michigan, and Oklahoma differently than Small State College as a matter of convenience or other factors. Dmoore5556 (talk) 17:18, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You make some good points, adding to my second thoughts about trying to create separate articles pre-1964 (or, per my preference, pre-1962) for "major college" and "small college" football seasons. If you conclude that the best outcome is to simply revert to "19xx college football season", I'd support that. Cbl62 (talk) 21:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC) Cbl62 (talk) 21:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Given the uncertainty about major/small split by season, at least based on what we know currently, I feel that "19xx college football season" articles are the safest (as in, they can be well-sourced and avoid straying into original research). The relevant question being, what's the transition point from unified "football season" articles to having different University and College season articles? The Byers quote (here, December 1962) looks to be less of an outlier in consideration of the November 1961 quote noted below (here) although it is still worth considering if there were really different "seasons" of football happening amongst NCAA schools prior to the 1964 onset of College Division-specific postseason games. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:37, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Oregon Webfoots vs. Oregon Ducks
Team articles from 1940 Oregon Ducks football team to 1977 Oregon Ducks football team have just been changed from "Webfoots" to "Ducks" by @User:Carrite.

I'm not sure what the correct team name is for each year, but would like to see some discussion and sources on the move.

PK-WIKI (talk) 17:53, 23 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Neutrally as a point of reference; the program's media guide from 1976 uses only "Ducks" when referring to the team (here, see for example the Outlook article on page 3). Dmoore5556 (talk) 22:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The 1963 NCAA records book lists them as the Ducks. PK-WIKI (talk) 01:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Cleveland Plain Dealer
The Cleveland Plain Dealer is now available digitally on Newspapers.com. Woohoo! Cbl62 (talk) 16:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Most excellent! When my local Dayton papers were added to Newspapers.com, it was honestly one of the happiest days of my life! Jb45424 (talk) 16:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

CfD: Category:1941 junior college football season
Category:1941 junior college football season has been nominated for merging. Please the discussion at Categories for discussion/Log/2024 May 23. Jweiss11 (talk) 14:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

College Division / University Division
From the above discussion... a suggestion: Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Retain existing "19xx NCAA College Division football season" articles for 1964 through 1972, as the College Division regional finals and the NCAA College Division Football Committee demonstrably existed during those seasons, AND
 * For the 1956 to 1963 articles structured as College/University/NAIA, either:
 * a) merge their content into unified "19xx college football season" articles (as already exist for 1955 and earlier), OR
 * b) re-present the content in two articles for each season where the split is between "major" and "small college" (see WikiProject College football/Major vs small college compendium, which should be helpful to such an effort).
 * My thoughts are still forming as we dig into the issue, but here are my takes so far:
 * 1) Agree that the "19xx College Division football season" articles from 1956 to at least 1961 are based on original and/or flawed research and need to be changed.
 * 2) Agree that the "19xx College Division football season" articles from 1964 forward be left as is. I would go further and extend this back to 1962 when we have this quote from NCAA executive director Walter Byers referring to "our University and College divisions" and giving a specific breakdown that there were at that time 140 schools playing football in the University Division and 370 programs competing in the college division. To my mind, this is clear evidence that the "University/College Division" split had occurred by 1962.
 * 3) For the earlier years, I was initially inclined to split them (and probably support the split) into separate "major" and "small" college articles. However, as we've begun to dig in, second thoughts have developed due to
 * (a) ambiguity and uncertainty as to which programs were considered "major" vs "small" (there were inconsistencies in how some teams were classified),
 * (b) uncertainty as to which designators of "major" status we should report. So far, we have multiple and sometimes inconsitent designations by (i) FWAA (unfortunately, we don't yet have its annual lists of the schools it designated as "major"), (ii) the NCAA Service Bureau which divided its annual statistical reports between schools designated as "major" and "small", (iii) AP Newsfeatures' pre-season publication of "major college" football schedules,
 * (c) the split creates an issue as to how we should treat certain conferences. For example, in 1948, only two of five MVC schools (3/9 Border, 4/6 Skyline, 12/16 SoCon) were considered "major". Cbl62 (talk) 09:22, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Cbl62 good insight, thanks. The 1962 Byers quote is still problematic, as a) the Miami News column in question is the only known instance where a writer attributed such a statement to Byers, and b) 140 is an overly high number of programs to consider "major", as other sources (such as the published schedules, example) put the number in the 120s. I would like to see some corroborating source(s), lest this simply be a case of one columnist's notes being off. I will dig some more, as time permits. Dmoore5556 (talk) 14:43, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The 1962 record is not as clear as we'd like, but I see the Byers quote as pretty decent evidence. It's conceivable that the reporter may have gotten the precise counts for either division off by a bit, but it seems unlikely that the reporter (a 30-year veteran reporter and sports editor of a major newspaper) just made up the whole sequence of quotes from Byers about the two divisions. Cbl62 (talk) 23:19, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Here are the relevant pages from the 1963 NCAA records book. PK-WIKI (talk) 22:31, 9 May 2024 (UTC)


 * PK-WIKI, the 1963 NCAA records book content is helpful, thank you. I've done some additional digging, and found a relevant article from 1961, as below. Newspaper mentions of "college division" before 1961 that I've looked through are not specific to football; most are about basketball, with some cross-country mentions. Standard disclaimer that there could be other content, which I've not found.


 * November 1961 article here discussing how the NCAA is "anxious" for postseason football games in the college division.
 * January 1960 article here which starts off discussing football substitution rules, and later makes a mention of college division in the general sense (not specific to football), which I highlight here because it gives a very specific figure for the size of a school then considered "NCAA (small) college division"—less than 705 students. This is curiously inconsistent with other content we see where the major/small categorization in football was decided by the FWAA. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:17, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The pages referenced by PK-WIKI from the 1963 NCAA annual are pretty definitive: the split between the College and University Divisions were a real and official thing in 1963. It would be interesting to see how the 1962 NCAA annual dealt with the matter. Cbl62 (talk) 00:22, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Would you be willing either (a) to share the full range of pages from the 1963 NCAA annual that identify the University Division Schools, or (b) transcribe the list of University Division schools at WikiProject College football/Major vs small college compendium. Thanks for finding this! Cbl62 (talk) 00:34, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No problem, here are the 1963 University Division schedules. PK-WIKI (talk) 01:34, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Cbl62, I agree, it would be insightful to see how things were presented in the 1962 NCAA book. Since PK-WIKI noted above that he doesn't have a copy of the 1962 edition, I just purchased one via eBay, and I'll provide an update here as soon as I get it (hopefully early next week). PK-WIKI, if you later want the 1962 edition to add to your collection, I'd be happy to send it to you. Dmoore5556 (talk) 06:22, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I should receive the 1962 NCAA book tomorrow (Wednesday) and will provide an update as soon as possible. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The 1962 NCAA book (with Sonny Gibbs on the cover) did arrive—I've looked through it, and it does not make any mention of the NCAA having College and University Divisions. What I see is:

If anyone wants other info from this record book, let me know.
 * A section on "Major-College Statistics" and a section on "Small-College Statistics". The Small-College section starts with an explanatory paragraph: "Approximately 110 college football teams, which play most of their games against each other, are classified as 'major-college' teams. ... The football teams of all other colleges and universities comprise the 'small-college' field. An official list is issued annually by the Football Writers' Association of America, the official classifying authority."
 * A single section with "1962 NCAA-Member Schedules". This is presented alphabetically (e.g. Alabama is followed by Albion College), and without designation of whether a team is 'major' or not.
 * As a bit of an aside: final standings for the 1961 season in the Middle Atlantic Conference (MAC, but not today's Mid-American Conference) show that it was divided into three divisions—University, College North, and College South. But these were not new, as the MAC organized itself that way from the late 1950s (source) through the 1969 season. These divisions are visible in Template:1958 Middle Atlantic Conference football standings through Template:1969 Middle Atlantic Conference football standings. Such a structure was (from what I can tell) unique to the MAC and done by the conference itself, independent of the NCAA.

Considering the clear contrast between the 1962 record book and 1963 record book... that looks to be the transition point from no organizational split, to having University and College divisions. Having different record keeping for teams deemed major-college and small-college dates to earlier (apparently, the 1930s) but does not reflect an organizational split. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:08, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I should also add... we are left with an inconsistency for 1962, where the Record Book doesn't show University/College but there's a statement (here) about University/College by Walter Byers. There was certainly a time gap between the issuing of the Record Book (it doesn't say what month it was published, but it's certainly no later than September 1962, and likely a few months earlier) and Byers' statement, which was published on December 12, 1962. It would seem either the NCAA decided late in the 1962 pre-season to implement University/College (that is, it happened after the Record Book was finalized) or perhaps Byers was looking ahead to the 1963 season (he was speaking about a "comprehensive survey" that had not yet happened). I'd be curious as to if anything the 1963 Record Book makes mention of University/College existing during the prior (1962) season, or just in the 1963 schedules. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:27, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

For completeness, there is a source cited in 1956 NCAA University Division football season which states: Before we list those players, we must first note how the NCAA divisions used to be organized. Prior to 1956, there were no Divisions in college football. Between 1956 and 1972, schools were categorized in either the “University Division” or the “College Division”. In 1973, the University Division became Division I while the College Division becamse Divisions II and III. There was another split in 1978, with Division I breaking up into Division I and Division I-AA. In 2006, we saw the new classification of the FBS and FCS arise. That is our current structure. The source is this page on the heisman.com site, published in July 2016 and authored by one Chris Hudson. I view the "Between 1956 and 1972" statement as a well-intended attempt to clarify history, but it ultimately lacks sourcing and does not hold up to scrutiny. His statement would be accurate in a basketball context, but not in a football context, even though it "sounds good".

Next steps
I believe we are at a point where the unified content found at 1955 college football season should be extended through at least 1961 college football season, and the first season to have separate University Division and College Division articles should be either 1962 or 1963. Comments?

Note that NAIA season articles begin with 1956 NAIA football season, so whether that content should be included in the above, or left to stand on their own, also merits some consideration. I have not looked into NAIA football history, so I don't know to what degree the unsourced statement "The 1956 NAIA football season was the first season of college football sponsored by the National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics." is factually accurate.

Lastly, we should also consider whether to make changes directly (WP:BOLD), or via WP:MERGE, or ?

Thank you to all who have participated in this (now quite lengthy) discussion. Dmoore5556 (talk) 20:58, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Upper Midwest Athletic Conference: NAIA or NCAA D3?
I came across a slew of conference standings templates for Upper Midwest Athletic Conference (and began a TfD for a majority of them here for anyone interested in participating). However, I noticed that for the 2002 and 2003 templates, they are included in both 2002 NCAA Division III football season and 2002 NAIA football season, and both 2003 NCAA Division III football season and 2003 NAIA football season. I don't think programs can be part of the NCAA and NAIA in the same season, so could anyone help out and figure out which league these conferences belong to? Eagles 24/7 (C)  19:02, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It was certainly the case at one time that a single conference could include both NAIA and NCAA teams, c.f. Template:1981 Lone Star Conference football standings. That's also a very silly set of TfDs. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The article Upper Midwest Athletic Conference says it joined the NCAA in 2008 from the NAIA. It looks like you added these templates to each of the NCAA and NAIA season articles, could you clarify or source in the article what happened with their league affiliations? And I agree it is very silly that there are so many of these standings templates that are only used in one article, since it defeats the purpose of a template. Eagles 24/7 (C)  21:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It's not silly at all if you consider the principles of consistency and parallelism and think about how articles related to these templates are almost surely going to evolve. The UMAC's website says the conference joined the NCAA in 2008 here: https://umacathletics.com/sports/2008/2/28/History.aspx. The NCAA website indicates that Northwestern (MN) joined the NCAA in 2008 (https://stats.ncaa.org/teams/history?utf8=%E2%9C%93&org_id=30031&sport_code=MFB&commit=Searchthat) but that Martin Luther has been an NCAA member since 1991 (https://stats.ncaa.org/teams/history?utf8=%E2%9C%93&org_id=8597&sport_code=MFB&commit=Search). So in 2002, and a few other years, the UMAC apparently included both NAIA and NCAA teams. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:18, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you think a note should be added to some of these standings templates to indicate which league the team was a member of? I find these mixed-league conferences are confusing to readers (and me). And since these standings templates are being created before team articles, season articles, and other list articles for the programs, context may be needed to understand them. Eagles 24/7 (C)  21:55, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Note of clarification that, at one time, it was not uncommon for schools to belong to both the NCAA and NAIA. I don't know to what degree that was the case "only" ~20 years ago, but this article from July 1958 notes around 120 small colleges were, at that time, members of both organizations. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:54, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Oklahoma Panhandle State was a NCAA Division II independent and a member of the NAIA Central States Football League well into the 2010s. They joined the Lone Star Conference before dropping down to NAIA and re-join the SAC.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 21:27, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Short names for junior college programs
In recent weeks,, , and I have done a bunch work to expand our coverage of junior college football, e.g. 1941 Los Angeles City Cubs football team, 1967 junior college football season, and 2023 junior college football season. An issue that needs some discussion and resolution is the naming scheme for a few junior college athletics programs. I'll kick things off with a couple examples.


 * The Pierce Brahmas of Los Angeles Pierce College: based on Newspapers.com sources from the 1940s to 1980s, the most common short name here appears to be simply "Pierce". Consider the sources cited in these standings templates: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere?target=Pierce+Brahmas+football&namespace=10. But current definitive standings reports from the California Community College Athletic Association (3C2A or CCCAA) employ "LA Pierce"; see here. Our categorization scheme here is currently a mess, employing "LAPC", "Los Angeles Pierce", and "Pierce"; see Category:Los Angeles Pierce College. There is also the added issue of the fight name: Brahmas or Brahma Bulls?


 * The San Joaquin Delta Mustangs of San Joaquin Delta College: the school was known as Stockton Junior College from 1935 to 1948 and Stockton College 1948 to 1963, so before the fall of 1963, I think "Stockton Mustangs" is most appropriate and then "San Joaquin Delta Mustangs" starting then. The school now self-brands its teams as "Delta College Mustangs", but I'm not sure when that started; see here. The CCCAA standings reports linked above still use "San Joaquin Delta". Our categorization scheme at Category:San Joaquin Delta College is inconsistent.

Thoughts on these two to start? Cbl62 may have more examples worthy of discussion. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:00, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I lived for over 20 years in the San Fernando Valley and always heard the school referred to as Pierce College, never as LA Pierce College. I took a photo of the gym years ago (File:Pierce College South Gymnasium.JPG) that refers to it as simply "Pierce College" and denotes the mascot as the Brahmas. Cbl62 (talk) 22:56, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

CFB HOF
I just went through and reconciled the CFB HOF inductee lists with Category:College Football Hall of Fame inductees, and came up with 129 names that need to be added to the category. I don't have time to work on them now, but I figured if someone is looking for a project I can provide the list. LMK. Jb45424 (talk) 00:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Is what needs to be done, simply adding Category:College Football Hall of Fame inductees to 129 different articles? Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes. Jb45424 (talk) 03:20, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * OK—perhaps create a list, similar to (and simpler than) WikiProject College football/CFHOF article improvement campaign, so volunteers can edit as time allows and mark as completed. Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Follow up: WikiOriginal-9 updated 96 of these articles on 17 May, and I updated the remaining 33 today. So the work is done. ✅ Jb45424 (talk) 11:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Conference awards in infoboxes
There is a proposal at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League that editors may be interested in.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 14:00, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Current starting QB navbox
Template:Southeastern Conference starting quarterbacks navbox, what are the thoughts about this?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 03:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Burn it with fire. Changes too often to provide any lasting value. Case in point, 6 of the 14 entries are currently incorrect, as those six players are currently either in NFL camps, or have transferred to other colleges. Ejgreen77 (talk) 03:44, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, delete this per Ejgreen77's reasoning. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:09, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

J. J. McCarthy
See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League. Cbl62 (talk) 21:09, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Service academy football
An A&E biography on Admiral William Halsey Jr. is on and it mentioned how he "played football on one of the worst team's in [Naval A]cademy history." All editorialism aside, I checked his page and it didn't have the Navy Midshipmen category and the WP:CFB tag on the talk page despite having information about his playing days in prose. It makes me wonder how many pages might also have these oversights?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:12, 3 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Probably not that surprising for someone who played pre-Wikipedia and is not primarily known as a football player to be overlooked. —Bagumba (talk) 01:49, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The service academy football teams have included many important military figures. For example, the 1912 Army Cadets football team included Dwight Eisenhower, Omar Bradley, Vernon Prichard, Louis A. Merrilat, Geoffrey Keyes, William M. Hoge, and Leland Devore --  not to mention Tennessee coaching legend Robert Neyland.  For anyone looking for a worthwhile project, improving the service academy season articles (as well as adding CFB tags to player bios) is worth considering. Cbl62 (talk) 01:58, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to lie, I am not very strong at article improvement when it comes to promoting articles to GA, let alone FA. I can write well off Wikipedia, but I am completely unsure what really makes the threshold (and yes I've read the pages about that). But, I admire how the NFL project is working on making lists FLs. I wonder if a good start would be to raise Army, Navy, Air Force, and even the D-III Coast Guard program articles, head coaches, seasons, and bowl lists, to that standard?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 02:14, 3 June 2024 (UTC)