Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation/Archive 31

Albatross (disambiguation)
I've tried explaining about partial matches, and piped links on Albatross (disambiguation). I failed badly, so I am stepping back from editing that DAB for now. (as well as oak (disambiguation) and grey oak). Widefox ; talk 14:27, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Groundhog days
FYI, the Firestone bandit is back at it, adding Diego Firestone from yet another new IP. Two vandal warnings this week...& fairly obviously, somebody who won't take a hint. TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  04:28, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Single-purpose account. Reported. Zepppep (talk) 04:38, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Converting Window treatment from disambiguation page to article
This article should not be a disambiguation page and should be converted to an article. There are no other pages titled "window treatment" (google search). It seems to fit under the category of Broad-concept articles --George100 (talk) 05:52, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You're right. I removed the dab tag. It's now an article. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:16, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Article alerts: Articles for deletion
I fixed all the remaining (four) items in the AfD section. Widefox ; talk 17:21, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Native
This page is a bit of a mess - article plus dab page combined - there is a proposal on its talk page to split it. Pam D  08:03, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Danilovsky District
Here is an interesting page, Danilovsky District, a disambiguation page that, I think, appropriately uses maps to help distinguish various Russian rayons, but that, inappropriately is loaded with footnotes appropriate to the articles themselves. Enjoy. --Bejnar (talk) 01:41, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The page is a WP:SETINDEX, where references may be used. older ≠ wiser 02:07, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I did clean up Danilovsky, though, to avoid having the readers go from the dab page through the set index before reaching an article with information. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:07, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

When to have both disambiguation and set index articles
I know that this project has disavowed coverage over individual set index articles, and I agree that that is appropriate. Still the interface between disambiguation pages and set index articles should be of some concern, and the definition of set index articles is at WP:Disambiguation. Please see a discussion that I've initiated at Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation Set index articles definition and List disambiguation first over set index article with same coverage. --Bejnar (talk) 22:12, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Nabokov (disambiguation)
Should Nabokov (disambiguation) be moved to Nabokov (surname) as it is not a disambiguation page? --Bejnar (talk) 23:47, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ -- JHunterJ (talk) 00:23, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * And then some bright spark deleted the "redirect" hatnote pointing to it! Replaced. Pam  D  07:28, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Mengele (disambiguation)
The Mengele (disambiguation) page is not tagged as a disambiguation page, but rather as a surname page, despite only one entry to an actual surname in the main section, and one link in the "See also" section to a surname page. Should Mengele (disambiguation) be tagged as a disambiguation page? If yes, should the surname tag remain? If not, should it be renamed to Mengele (surname)? --Bejnar (talk) 00:00, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅. Well, deleted, anyway. -- JHunterJ (talk) 00:23, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * And Meņģele parish now added to hatnote Pam  D  07:31, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Rimbaud (disambiguation)
Can Rimbaud (disambiguation) be moved to Rimbaud (surname) as it is not a disambiguation page? with the concommitent deletion of the resultant redirect? --Bejnar (talk) 04:21, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Done speedily, definitely only a surname page. bd2412  T 04:39, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * What about Rimbaud (album)? I'll add it to hatnote for now. Pam  D  07:26, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Cornhole (disambiguation)


The article Cornhole (disambiguation) has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Second term can be found nowhere on the target page.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. GeorgeLouis (talk) 02:42, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Andre and André
These two pages need some attention - overlap, dab/name page unclarity, etc. I'm not in the mood at the moment, but someone might like to take up the challenge! Pam D  07:23, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Proposed merger of two disambiguation pages
I have just proposed that CityLine (disambiguation) be merged into the dab page at City Line. The discussion has been started at Talk:City Line. I'm leaving this note here to get more input into the discussion as I get the impression neither page is massively watched. Thryduulf (talk) 23:08, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * After no objections I've gone ahead and merged the pages to City Line, in doing so I discovered a need for a dab page for Cityliner, which I've created. Both pages are in need of cleanup. Thryduulf (talk) 17:59, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Bag
At some point, bag was turned from an article to a disambiguation page, containing mostly, WP:PTM listings of types of bags. I have restored the article and improved it. Further improvement, to prevent it from being removed again, is needed. bd2412 T 19:02, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Italics within italics
This is a small issue, but one that I come across fairly frequently when disambiguating using hatnotes; when mentioning things that are typically italicised, such as titles of works, ship names, etc. in a hatnote, which is itself italicised, how should the text be represented, e.g., in a hatnote? Example pages:


 * William (The X-Files)
 * Help! (album)

(by all means correct the usage on these pages, but please do address the general point)

Many thanks,

--MegaSloth (talk) 16:48, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't worry about it there, but if you are so inclined, things that are italicized in normal text typically have the italics removed when they appear in italicized text: For the Beatles album, see Help! (album). But getting that formatting right is IMO more trouble than it's worth. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:14, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * In the article Italic type, it says to do it like JHunterJ said above. I can't find anything about italics within italics in the Wikipedia MOS though. I fixed it in Help! (album). It was already right in William (The X-Files) when I got there. Thanks. SchreiberBike (talk) 17:22, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments --MegaSloth (talk) 17:25, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Can a hatnote be used for 2 other articles?
Where there are 2 disambiguated titles in addition to an article at the base name, I favour a hatnote rather than a dab page. I believe this is supported by Hatnote, when it says "When there are up to four other uses – You should generally create a disambiguation page at this point." beside one of its example uses of about. But when I PRODded Iamus (disambiguation), because the hatnote at Iamus makes it unnecessary, it was dePRODded with the summary "(deprod; hatnotes shouldn't cover more than one article; more than one and a disambig page is necessary)". Any thoughts? If a hatnote shouldn't cover more than one article, it's difficult to know why about can take so many parameters. Perhaps I should just take it to AfD. Pam D  23:28, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see the problem with a two-link hatnote. We have all kinds, actually. We have See x, see x and x (disambiguation), see x1 and x2 and x (disambiguation) hatnotes. On the other hand, that's not necessarily a reason to delete the disambig page. Suppose someone wants to point out that the word Iamus has several meanings - shouldn't they be able to link to Iamus (disambiguation) if they intend to point to its ambiguity? bd2412  T 04:11, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Right. A hatnote could be used for two other articles. two other uses is intended for this, for instance. A disambiguation page could be used instead for two other articles. I wouldn't say either of them should be used in favor of the other. I tend to go with the hatnote if I encounter the ambiguity, and leave the disambiguation pages if someone else has created them. If the hatnote is quite long, though, I'll go ahead and make the dab. -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:49, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

A mess of plant leaf size disambigs.
I would like to propose that something be done about the series of pages, macrophyll, megaphyll, mesophyll, and microphyll (along with the redlinked nanophyll and notophyll). The four that exist are disambig pages, but seem too nuanced to really be ambiguous. I propose that they all be merged into a single article along the lines of Leaf morphology (to parallel Plant morphology, although I note that Glossary of plant morphology exists, and leaves much to be desired) or even Classification of leaves by size. bd2412 T 11:42, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

WP:NAMB
There's a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Hatnote about whether the rule against a hatnote pointing from an article with a disambiguated title to the corresponding disambiguation page is a good thing. (ie Should we allow a hatnote pointing from "Foo (something)" to the dab page at "Foo" or "Foo (disambiguation)"). Pam D  10:04, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

db-disambig and Twinkle
Some people may be interested in the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Twinkle (see the section "Notify article creator for db-disambig") about adding a talk page warning message for the creator when pages are tagged with db-disambig using Twinkle. France 3470  ( talk ) 14:08, 18 September 2012 (UTC) --Jerzy•t 06:58, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It's been archived.

AT&T
Maybe you can help. Consensus is that the 1885 corp is AT&T Corporation and the 1983 corp (formerly SBC) is AT&T (aka "AT&T Inc."), a primary topic for AT&T (disambiguation). However there are probably 2000 links to "AT&T" and probably half of them refer to "AT&T Corporation" instead. My concern is that, even after the 2000 links are sifted in the ordinary way, newly created incorrect links to "AT&T" that intend "AT&T Corporation" are highly probable indefinitely and will not be easy to find among the remaining approx 1000 links to "AT&T" that intend the 1983 corp. My proposal is that we have a convention that the remaining links be changed from AT&T to AT&T, which means that there would be no incoming links to AT&T in WhatLinksHere except for new links, which can be filtered as they appear. If we did not change the remaining links, there would be no easy way to spot new incorrect links. Also, per WP:NOTBROKEN, there is no reason not to adjust these links.

I am wondering if there are any other primary topics that have a similar potential for incorrect incoming links and how this may have been handled previously. And how well would my proposal be received from this project as a general rule? Thank you for your attention. 12.153.112.21 (talk) 13:56, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I have no objection to adjusting links to enable easier identification of the rare errant link to a primary topic for which other meanings exist. bd2412  T 23:42, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate your saying that, but this issue has more inertia to overcome before it is fixed. It's true that one person can do 2000 links but one IP cannot do every semiprotected article if they are fielded by a random slice of Wikipedians. So far on semiprotection I've gotten a few accepts, and 3 declines from 2 users. Here is the current list of unsorted bare links to "AT&T", about half or more of which are wrong. The argument is that the other half should be redirected silently to "AT&T Inc." so that new incorrect unsorted links can be quickly fielded on an ongoing basis. Can someone please adopt at least the (currently 3) semiprotected articles at the top of this list, and perhaps follow me as I make further edit requests or chip in with dabbing some of the (still nearly) 2000 links? Thank you. 12.153.112.21 (talk) 14:57, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Discography disambiguation pages.
I am concerned about the following pages currently tagged as disambiguation pages: In each case, the disambiguation page contains only two links, one being a "singles" discography of the artist, and the other being an "albums" discography of the same artist. I wonder whether these can properly be called disambiguation pages at all, or if perhaps some other solution should be implemented for these pages. bd2412 T 23:58, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Crystal Gayle discography
 * Alan Jackson discography
 * Willie Nelson discography
 * Dolly Parton discography
 * Jean Shepard discography
 * Connie Smith discography
 * George Strait discography
 * Randy Travis discography
 * Tanya Tucker discography
 * Kitty Wells discography
 * Dottie West discography
 * Dwight Yoakam discography
 * Category:Lists of lists? -- JHunterJ (talk) 00:00, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * There are enough to justify a subcategory - how about Category:Lists of discographies? bd2412  T 00:50, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Subjectively/personally, I'd suggest that these root pages get redirected to the "albums" page, at which we add a hatnote pointing to the "singles" page.
 * These root pages are never linked to directly - the main article should always list the 2 destinations, not this disambig-like page - and that should be standard. eg Crystal Gayle and Dwight Yoakam.
 * These root pages will also potentially clog up our and google's search results.
 * Maybe ask at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Discographies if that (or similar) could become a recommended-practice? —Quiddity (talk) 02:36, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I dropped a note there, but I don't see anyone coming over to talk about the matter. I would agree to making the "albums" list the base page name, with a hatnote to the "singles" list, since this will keep people who are searching for the albums from having to click a second link. bd2412  T 01:27, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree with the redirect to albums.--Neo139 (talk) 15:56, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Since these really are not disambiguation pages, I don't think this project should have anything in particular to say about what is done with them, other than to insist that they not be marked as disambiguation pages. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 17:38, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * They're clearly "disambiguation-esque" in purpose and format, so even if they weren't tagged with templates/categories, this project would still have strongly relevant advice to offer. Whether a project (or an individual editor) "should" give advice is often subjective, but the quality/substance of the advice should be more important than where it came from. (Ie. do you object to the advice/suggestion offered, or more to the location it is being written at?) —Quiddity (talk) 19:06, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, it's not that I object to discussing these pages here, but you are more likely to find users who are knowledgeable about and interested in the particular topic of discographies elsewhere. And, no, they are not "disambiguation-esque"; a list of articles containing parts of a single artist's discography is in no way resolving any "ambiguity"; the only thing they have in common with disambiguation pages is that they both happen to contain lists of article titles.  --R'n'B (call me Russ) 21:51, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * They are not disambiguation-esque, they are disambiguation. Disambiguation is all about pointing people to the correct article, not the correct topic - after all, articles are split and merged constantly. Here, the phrase xxx discography is ambiguous as to which article to go to, so this page disambiguates that. Ego White Tray (talk) 13:52, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Still, the common sense solution seems obvious to me, and our participation in the disambig project doesn't prevent us from boldly enacting a solution to solve a problem which has arisen out of incorrect use of the disambig tag. bd2412  T 22:39, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * @Ego White Tray, first, please do not insert comments between the existing comments of other editors, as this creates a false impression that the following comment is a response to your comment instead of the comment to which it actually responded. Second, there are two policies which these pages conflict with - WP:DABCONCEPT (which defines pages as being not ambiguous if they address related topics that are collectively capable of being addressed in a single article), and WP:TWODABS, which discourages the use of disambiguation pages distinguishing only two links. This policy applies even if the pages are actually ambiguous, because there is no need to send readers to a third page if the only other possible meaning can just as easily be presented as a hatnote on either of the two links mentioned. The case for that is certainly stronger where the lists are closely related, as they are with products produced by the same artist. bd2412  T 17:47, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Petronella Barker: how to disambiguate?
I've just come across an article titled Petronella Barker actress b.1942. Obviously this isn't an appropriately formatted title. I was going to change it to "Petronella Barker (actress)", but on checking it turns out that the pre-existing Petronella Barker article is also about an actress (born 1965).

What would be the best way to disambiguate these two articles? — Paul A (talk) 02:11, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not sure what is the best way as you have two options. 1) disambiguate on nationality (as one is a Norwegian actress and the other English); 2) disambiguate on year of birth (as one is born in 1942 and the other in 1965). The Banner talk 03:01, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Petronella Barker was born in England, so (British/English actress) doesn't seem best. Petronella Barker (actress born 1942) seems good. TimBentley (talk) 03:08, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

In addition, WP:QUALIFIER seems to suggest that (occupation born year) is an established way of disambiguating two people with the same occupation. I'll go with that, then. — Paul A (talk) 03:11, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Bible disambiguations
Today I encountered this disambiguation page: Abinadab. This is one of four people mentioned in the Bible. This page is so far from what a disambiguation page should be and I honestly have no idea what to do to fix this page. I suspect that there are a whole lot of other pages like this, since there is a huge number of names in the Bible and any name in the Bible justifies either an article or redirect to someplace. I invited Wikiproject Bible to comment and hopefully someone can provide an answer here. Ego White Tray (talk) 13:48, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * We have something exactly for this. Pages listing only names of minor biblical figures with no article of their own should be merged into List of minor biblical figures. Cheers! bd2412  T 19:09, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I have completed the merge. StAnselm (talk) 19:26, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, thanks. Next time I see a page like that, I'll do the same. Ego White Tray (talk) 01:39, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Set-index articles with nearly-duplicated names
Hi guys - just a quick question. We've a few 'set-index articles' with very similar names; for example Diamond-back rattlesnake and Diamondback rattlesnake. The documentation makes it clear that this is a semantic grouping (that is, by the meaning of the titles listed) rather than syntactic (as in normal disambiguation pages - those with titles that look similar but discuss different subjects), but I'm struggling to work out when it is appropriate to merge such sets. Is the intention of the two rattlesnake lists the same or not? - TB (talk) 11:20, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I would absolutely merge these. The name is basically a colloquial reference to the animal correctly known by its scientific designation - like a nickname, and therefore susceptible to minor variations. bd2412  T 13:47, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree with merging. These are unnecessary redundancy and (as they are not synchronized--fraught with potential for confusion). older ≠ wiser 13:54, 6 November 2012 (UTC)


 * They're merged now, cheers. My main hope in posting this here was instruction on how to determine the intention of a set-index article - they lack any obvious definition of the set they describe, and the title is clearly insufficient - a set of things with the same title is just a plain-old disambiguation page.  - TB (talk) 19:16, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Move of dimension to Dimension (mathematics and physics)
I have moved Dimension to Dimension (mathematics and physics) because its content may not be considered, by most readers, as the main topic (see Talk:Dimension), the primary meaning being "dimension of an object", described in the first line of Dimension (disambiguation). Normally Dimension (disambiguation) should be moved to Dimension. But, before this move, it is better to modify all links to Dimension into links to Dimension (mathematics and physics). Due of the number of these links, do somebody know how to do that automatically? --D.Lazard (talk) 10:51, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a pretty verbose qualifier. There isn't a single word that will suffice? But to the other question, tools like AutoWikiBrowser (WP:AWB) will speed up the process of updating all the incoming links, or a Bot requests can be made to have them changed in a fully automatic way. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:15, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that it is a verbose qualifier. I have chosen it because the article begin by "In mathematics and physics, ...". Rereading the article, it appears to be about a single topic that is called "dimension of a space" in mathematics, "dimension of the space" in physics, "number of dimensions" (fourth dimension, for example) or "degree of freeness" in other contexts. For the moment, it seems to me that the best title would be "Dimension of a space". I'll start a move discussion on the talk page on the basis of what precedes. --D.Lazard (talk) 17:15, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Nude Modeling
Nude modeling redirects to Model (art), while Nude model is a disambiguation page. This is not consistent, the meaning of both need disambiguation, since they could refer to art, commercial photography, or porn. The Nude model disambiguation page is incorrect, since it includes a link to Fetish model, which is not about nudity but either someone dressed in fetish outfits or a type of porn. FigureArtist (talk) 13:23, 9 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Good point! Did some fixes & cleanups - DAB pages are for listing existing articles on the topic visitors might likely be looking for, not for long explanations or original research. Please don't take it personally, your contributions were well-intended. --Trofobi (talk) 19:48, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Better, but I still think that Fetish model is out of place, and anyone searching for nude model or nude modeling is thinking Playboy (glamor/erotic but not porn), which is not covered by either Model (art) or Model (profession). Perhaps moving Nude Photography up to a main link and move Fetish down to See Also? FigureArtist (talk) 04:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This all seems very WP:DABCONCEPT-y to me. Why not just have an article on the concept of nude modeling, indicating therein that such modeling can occur for both artistic and commercial purposes, occasionally including fetish purposes? I would guess that there is a rich history of controversies involving nude modeling, and regulation of the practice. bd2412  T 18:12, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * @FigureArtist: A DAB is about which articles exist, where the topic is at least mentioned - the visitor has to decide himself, if that covers some of what she/he was looking for. If a concept article would meet relevance criteria is hard to tell in advance - I would think this could be difficult, because no model is working always only fully nude afaik. But be bold and try it in your sandbox?
 * It is never easy to to priorize a DAB page, when the entries differ from the MOS:DABORDER guidline... I would rather think List of glamour models could be moved up. Or actually all entries here could be moved down to "See also" because there is no real match. Just that would look strange wouldn't it? --Trofobi (talk) 13:08, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Craigslist killer/murder(er)
Could some native speaker help what is the correct or most common capitalization & word? And could someone more into the topic help cleanup this article-like DAB? Thanks :) --Trofobi (talk) 12:24, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Craigslist Killer / Craigslist Killer (disambiguation) / Redirects to this page:
 * Craigslist killer (Isn't this the correct caps?), Craigslist killers, List of Craigslist killers, Craigslist murderer, Craigslist murder (some of these redirs could really be put up for deletion)
 * Someone "more into the topic" could probably be found more easily on Talk:Craigslist Killer. The page could be made into a list article. I have cleaned it up as a disambiguation page-- JHunterJ (talk) 14:08, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're certainly right, sry misused this a bit as a sandbox... - but are you shure the capitalizations "Craigslist Killer / Ripper" are right instead of "Craigslist killer / ripper"? --Trofobi (talk) 12:30, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't this title redirect to an article on murders initiated by Craigslist meetings, listing these subjects therein? This seems somewhat WP:DABCONCEPT as it stands. bd2412  T 15:48, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I totally agree that this yellow press catchline is no good DAB topic. Perhaps better redirect them all to Internet homicide and Lonely hearts killer, there is already enough coverage of all this. By keeping this DAB we only invite more edits like this ,,, ... anytime when a homicide is linked to Craigslist in any media coverage. As this online-ad-forum is only one of many, and it being used by a killer is only one among many other elemts of the crime, we would legitimate having e.g. Twitter killer, Facebook killer, Kitchen knife killer, iPad Killer, Bus stop killer, and any other yellowpress teaser as a DAB or concept article. PS. see also WP:Articles for deletion/Craigslist Killing --Trofobi (talk) 17:29, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * A redirect to Internet homicide should suffice. bd2412  T 17:42, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Good, I left a notice at Talk:Craigslist Killer and will proceed so if no reasonable objections occur. --Trofobi (talk) 21:26, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Swat lead paragraph
In the lead paragraph of Swat, a recent edit by 222.186.101.77 introduced pipes and multiple wikilinks into the lead. I edited this to try to make it conform to (my understanding of) dab page style, but this was promptly reverted. I don't want to get into a revert war, and besides, I'm not sure exactly how the guidelines apply to the lead. Could someone from this project help me understand how to apply the guidelines to the lead paragraph of that article? Thanks! YBG (talk) 06:01, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Human race
The new disambiguation page at Human race appears unnecessary, especially given the hatnote already present on Human. However, the views of other editors would be welcome. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 16:05, 24 November 2012 (UTC)


 * FYI, discussion is taking place at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anthropology. older ≠ wiser 16:42, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Qadesh/Kadesh
I'd like to work with someone more knowledgeable about how to disambiguate the following pages.
 * There are two main disambiguation pages Kadesh (disambiguation) and Qadesh that need to be combined.
 * Then there transliterated terms like Kaddish (disambiguation), Kiddush, Kedesh and Qetesh. Can someone please suggest how they should be treated? All these words come from the same root Q-D-Š used in several languages that don't use vowels so in the original language, Kiddush and Qetesh sound very similar. I thought about using Baal (disambiguation) as a good example of how to handle this. All suggestions are welcome here. USchick (talk) 17:31, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * They all look fine to me right now offhand. The merger of Kadesh dab into Qadesh is well-done. Kaddish dab is a distinct subset and none of the respelled Kadesh dab items need to be confused with the subset of dabs all spelled Kaddish. The articles Kaddish, Kiddush, Kedesh, and Qetesh are well-defined as separate items (the first two of these refer to different blessings). All that's left are the usual tweaks. JJB 20:09, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Nage
I've never made a DAB before, and I'd rather not screw it up. I was recently looking up two different unions, the American Federation of Government Employees (AFGE) and the National Association of Government Employees (NAGE). AFGE links to the appropriate article, but NAGE redirects to Nage, with a hatnote for Nage (food). It's reasonable to think someone might be looking up National Association of Government Employees when they search for NAGE, so I think this oculd use a DAB, but as I said, I don't want to screw it up, and, while, yes, WP:BOLD applies, I'd rather do it right the first time, or have it done right the first time, than it need to be fixed later.--Vidkun (talk) 13:46, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I've had a go: redirect from NAGE to the union; "redirect" hatnote there to the other two uses; add the union to (and cleanup) the hatnote at Nage. There could be another solution involving a dab page, but with only these three uses it seems better to use hatnotes. Pam  D  14:09, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks!--Vidkun (talk) 14:21, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Mammilla (disambiguation)
Hello folks.

I have made very simple disambiguation pages before, but never a complex one. I need your help and/or advice with this one. I started it because there is a sea snail genus called Mammillaria but a search took me straight to the Nipple page with no hat note or any other kind of link to anything else.

However when I started making this disambiguation page it started turning into an article. I tried to rein it in, but it is still a bit wordy, however I want to make it clear what is what. What do you suggest? Should it be an article instead? Invertzoo (talk) 16:03, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I moved the WP:MALPLACED disambiguation page back to the base name and cleaned it up as a disambiguation page. The topics that couldn't be the topic of an article titled "Mammilla" are not entries for the disambiguation page "Mammilla". I left them in the "See also" section, but they could also be deleted. -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:20, 29 November 2012 (UTC)


 * OK JHunter. However, I don't really understand what you mean by, "the topics that couldn't be the topic of an article titled "Mammilla" are not entries for the disambiguation page "Mammilla"." All of the listed links would definitely be included in an article about "Mammilla", a word which means not only "nipple" but also "any nipple-like structure". All of the listed links (except for the unrelated name Mamilla), are about nipple-like anatomical structures or organisms that have nipple-like protuberances, hence their names. Would you mind clarifying what you said, since I may at at some point make such an article? Thanks, Invertzoo (talk) 17:03, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * A hypothetical article about the word mammilla would be a different thing, and possibly run afoul of WP:NOTDICT. But as you noted, disambiguation pages aren't articles, and articles aren't disambiguation pages, so that distinction would need to be made. You could convert the base-name disambiguation page to a term article (and remove the dab tag), if you want to try that. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:08, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks JHunter, if I get inspired and have the time I may try to do that.Invertzoo (talk) 03:37, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Sitter DAB
I edited the "sitter" page with regard to someone who sits for a portrait. Most dictionary definitions (e.g. Miriam-Webster and Oxford) and common usage indicate that the fine art namespace meaning of sitter is linked to portraiture, and is not synonymous with anyone who poses for an artist (a model). I have also edited the Model (art) article to provide references for this meaning. Of course this does not mean that there are no instances of over-generalization to be found.FigureArtist (talk) 16:59, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Firestoned
User:Andrew 3770 has returned to the reintroduction of Diego Firestone on the Firestone dab page... I suggest a block is warranted, since he's made no other contributions, & since this appears to be another account (or sock) of User:AndrewFirestone777. TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  17:04, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * User:Andrew 3770 has now added or rv'd this same add 3 times in the last 3 days, & shows no sign of editing even a single other page...  TREKphiler   any time you're ready, Uhura  13:29, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Luria
Hello again. We have a sea snail article Luria (gastropod). However, if you put Luria into the WP search slot only leads to Luria, which is about the surname. Should Luria become a disambiguation page? If not, then how do we handle this? I temporarily added the sea snail to the bottom of the page, which you may want to change? Thanks again, Invertzoo (talk) 03:34, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I moved the link to a hatnote from Luria to Luria (gastropod), which is one way to handle this. To change from a primary topic (the surname) to no primary topic (a disambiguation page), see if there's consensus at Talk:Luria. -- JHunterJ (talk) 03:49, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, I see... that's rather clever. That should be alright I think, don't you? As long as people can find their way to the snail article it's OK. Invertzoo (talk) 20:57, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

HP
It may be useful to have additional watchers at HP (disambiguation); an editor is trying to rework it to minimized the primary topic (note that there are two entries formatted as primary topics there, per consensus on the Talk page). Thanks. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:05, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There's also a related open redirect for discussion regarding 'hp' as "horsepower". Diego (talk) 12:28, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

HELP WITH THE TOOL (1 minute)
Hi, I have a quick question about the DAB solver tool. I'm probably doing something wrong, so I would appreciate it if you could please tell me what the error is.

The dab page Zhongsheng has 74 incoming links, and I want to clear it.

It has been tagged by the bot with the "incominglinks" template. So I click on the link in the tag that goes to the Dab solver tool. But when the Dab solver tool loads, it says that there is nothing to disambiguate on this page! But that's got to be wrong, because if you go to the page and look at "what links here", you can clearly see that there are 74 incoming links.

Could you please tell me what I'm doing wrong? I want to clear this page!!

Thanks, Azylber (talk) 08:46, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No, your are not doing anything wrong. Due to a recent Toolserver-problem, a lot of articles are still on the list while already resolved. The techies are working on that, but that takes some time. The Banner talk 10:10, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi The Banner, thank you. Ok, I understand. I'll give it a few days and then try again. Azylber (talk) 10:14, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Nobody has a clue how long it will take. Perhaps we should make a list of resolved but unfiltered articles. By now, the only thing you can do is gamble and look at the article. The Banner talk 10:17, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * In effect, I just started the list at User:The Banner/Workpage11, feel free to add! The Banner talk 10:25, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, ok. Zhongsheng is the dab page receiving all the links, and doesn't contain any problematic links itself, so it doesn't belong in your list. Azylber (talk) 10:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Why isn't that page linking for http://toolserver.org/~dpl/dab_fix_list.php?title=Zhongsheng ? — Dispenser 15:47, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've fixed the "incoming links" template. Now it links directly to the fix page for the dab page. Much more useful! Azylber (talk) 15:58, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Another tricky disambiguation situation
Hello once again folks! Here's a situation: there is a sea snail named Ficus variegata Röding, 1798. We do have an article for it under Ficus variegatus, an old spelling of the name, but, right now the title of the sea snail article needs to be moved to Ficus variegata, as per [the WoRMS entry here].

However... there is also a tree named Ficus variegata. And when I tried to do a search for the sea snail, I got taken to the tree article. That article was named Ficus variegata (Tree), so I moved it to Ficus variegata (tree).

I tried to put a better hat note on the tree article and the snail article, the one you see now, but what should be done now? We obviously need a disambiguation page, as both articles names will be spelled the same once the sea snail article name is moved to Ficus variegata. What else we need to do, I am going to leave to you guys. It is too confusing for me. We may need to delete some disambiguation pages I think.

Many thanks, Invertzoo (talk) 01:00, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

UPDATE: One of the gastropod project's other members had a go at cleaning up the situation. I think it is all OK now, but maybe you guys can check and see if you agree, thanks. Invertzoo (talk) 01:29, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The arrangement is fine. I reformatted the entries on the disambiguation page to put the italics only around the title, not the qualifier. I also removed the italics from the title and intro of the dab page; I'm less sure about this though. I don't think that disambiguation page should have italics titles, even if all of their entries are italicized. Other opinions? -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:30, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Question about redirects and disambiguations
Hi all! I recently created an article (About to Die EP) for a Dirty Projectors album. Suppose someone is looking for the article through search and just types "about to die". They arrive at Near-death (disambiguation), to which About to die redirects. Is there some way of letting people who search for "About to die" know about the EP article that I created? I can't very well mention it on Near-death (disambiguation), can I? Thanks. wia (talk) 04:33, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've added a hatnote to the dab page - not sure it's totally standard but seems to work, in the context of a slightly iffy dab page anyway. We could do something with capitalisation, redirecting "About to Die" to the EP and adding a hatnote there to link to the dab page, and perhaps adding the EP to the dab page as "See also", but I think the hatnote solution is probably better. Other editors may differ!  Pam  D  08:23, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've proposed retargeting About to die at Talk:About to die. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:44, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Abbreviate primary topics for an abbreviation disambiguation page?
Should the links to the primary topics be piped to show the abbreviations on a disambiguation page for an abbreviation? See HP (disambiguation), where both Hewlett-Packard and Horsepower have been piped to appear as HP. Here is the abbreviated links and here is the unabbreviated links. This is a discussion on style, so don't please don't discuss Harry Potter. Please chime in. Ego White Tray (talk) 21:41, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note this has nothing to do with piping, but rather on the use of base-name primary topic redirects on "base-name (disambiguation)" pages. -- JHunterJ (talk) 23:47, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I much prefer the page with the abbreviations spelled out. It looks much more grownup than the other one. GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:09, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note also the previous discussions at Talk:HP (disambiguation) and that "When the ambiguous term has a primary topic but that article has a different title (so that the term is the title of a redirect), the primary topic line normally uses the redirect to link to that article." -- JHunterJ (talk) 00:11, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * MOSDAB also says "In some cases it may be clearer to link directly to the redirect target", and I say this is one of these cases. Ego White Tray (talk) 03:06, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

A proposal for discussion before articles with many incoming links are turned into disambigs.
The biggest jumps in the number of disambiguation links usually come from circumstances where an editor unilaterally decides that a page with an arguably ambiguous title should in fact be a disambiguation page, or should redirect to one. This results in instances such as the one yesterday, in which an editor decided to change Meter from a redirect to Metre to a redirect to Meter (disambiguation). Although that was quickly resolved, such moves are not always so easily addressed. Occasionally this also occurs in AfD or RfD discussions where a dispute is resolved by changing an article to a disambiguation page, even though such a change does not accord with the policies developed by this project. I would like to propose, therefore, that the a page that has existed as a regular article for a long period of time (say, a year or more), or that has over a certain number of incoming article space links (say, fifty or more), should be presumed to be the primary topic for the term. In such cases, before any change to the page in question is made, a discussion should be initiated, with this project being notified of the discussion, and a consensus should be reached. This is not to say that the move itself is wrong, since the community has often developed consensus that a term has become ambiguous (as was the case with Android, which is now a disambiguation page). However, I do think that some discussion should be had before a change is made that generates substantial numbers of disambig links. bd2412 T 02:48, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Lots of pages are changed "unilaterally"—not just DAB pages. Nothing wrong with that. After all, WP:Bold. If there is an objection, then you go to the Talk Page. This is normally the way such things are done. I'm not sure that any given editor would be familiar with a rule about fifty incoming links, or a year up on WP to gain seniority. What might be the ill effects of the plan you suggest? GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:05, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This would still fall into the WP:BRD cycle, but it would make it easier for disambiguators to require page-movers to justify making a move that creates a mess to be cleaned up. Of course, a prospective page mover (for a fairly new page) could avoid this rule by fixing the incoming links first. bd2412  T 01:56, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I love the idea of more thought before someone creates a big pile of disambiguation links, but how would this work if the above were policy? Would there be a software solution which would make such changes impossible without previous consensus, or would it be reactive - a change would be reverted when someone notices a big new set of disambiguation links, then some tag would be added to the page to start a discussion to reach a consensus? Thanks, SchreiberBike (talk) 21:57, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Such pages usually make a big splash on the daily report, so they are easy to spot. As much as I'd like a software solution, I think it would be revert and point to the policy requiring discussion, so that the situation doesn't immediately degrade into a revert war based solely on the competing opinions of two editors. bd2412  T 04:30, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Sayyid (name)
The page Sayyid (name) looks like a DAB page to me, but seems to be treated like an article page. A user is having a hard time with the page, and listed it at DRV. The page previously was at AfD. I can see the DRV nominator's point. If you have time, would you work your magic and make the page into a good DAB page. That might help ease some tension. Thanks. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 05:21, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If it were a dab page, we'd delete it as being a partial title match list. This is one of the reasons the anthroponymy project came into being; the article is an anthroponymy list article, and treated as an article page. You can check with Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anthroponymy. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:30, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Primary topic discussion
There is a primary topic discussion underway that may be of interest to this project at Talk:Sinyang, South Pyongan. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 12:01, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Microsatellite
I'm not sure how to approach an apparently needed disambig. Microsatellite is apparently a term widely used both in the field of spaceflight and also in genetics. Currently, Microsatellite is the genetics article, and Microsatellite (spaceflight) is a redir to a sourced article section on the use of microsatellite in spaceflight. Given the apparent widespread use of the terms in both fields, it seems it might be best if Microsatellite became a disambig page, and Microsatellite (genetics) (which is currently a redir to Microsatellit) would become the genetics article.
 * 1) This seems complex in that there are pages in the way of page moves happening. Wondering if someone in the project has some sort of tool (or set of tools) that might make this easier.
 * 2) Also, if the subject should be beat around for a while first, in order to gain consensus, I'd be happy to kick that off; but unsure where to do it to get a balance of folks looking at it. Cheers.  N2e (talk) 04:22, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * See Talk:Microsatellite. There was previously a dab page, and after discussion just 5 months ago the genetics article was moved to the base name.  Pam  D  11:03, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much Pam. That is quite helpful info.


 * Odd, however, that the move away from a DAB page occurred when there was clearly no consensus on the move. I don't know what the criteria are for making such a change, but it certainly could not have been a "consensus" that met the criteria.  N2e (talk) 14:53, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of All the World's Mornings


The article All the World's Mornings has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * This disambiguation page is not needed for 2 articles : both articles are linked, one being an adaptation of the other on screen; there will never be a third page to put here. What’s more, it does not help navigation and the book page should be simply renamed without the mention « novel » to simplify.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. 182.163.42.82 (talk) 00:29, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

RfC on disambiguation-related page
Your comments are requested at Talk:Koch_brothers. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 23:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

RFC on broad-concept/disambiguation dispute
Your comments are requested at Talk:List of Southern Hemisphere tropical cyclone seasons. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 13:42, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Nicola and Nicola (name)
This pair of pages need a thorough sortout, but I mustn't get into it right now as I've got other stuff I need to do off-wiki. A nice little project for someone to pick up. Happy Boxing Day. Pam D  08:41, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:14, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks great! Pam  D  13:59, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

DOI - Disambiguitation Page
This page requires in my opinion another entry: DOI - Department of Information The Government of Malta http://gov.mt/en/Government/DOI/Pages/Department-of-Information.aspx — Preceding unsigned comment added by T2a (talk • contribs) 14:44, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Which Wikipedia article mentions DOI as referring to the Maltese Department of Information? -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:41, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Can someone fix this DAB page?
Skoll (disambiguation) and the articles linked from it need some looking after. It seems like an easy enough job for people used to DAB pages. I came across it when searching for Skol, Vikings which isn't linked from it and should be. Skol, the article I came across after my search, links to Sköll rather than the DAB page. None of the other pages link to the DAB page. In addition, the DAB page starts by saying "Skoll is the mythological figure Sköll". Shouldn't that be more like "Skoll, or Skol, may refer to:"? Ryan Vesey 02:25, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅. Looks like Jokestress fixed the redirects, and the dab pages are now cleaned up. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:56, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Apple (disambiguation)
User:Bkonrad seems to think Apple River (disambiguation), Apple Valley (disambiguation), Big Apple (disambiguation), Golden apple (disambiguation),The Little Apple (disambiguation), and Apple tree (disambiguation) are all appropriate for Apple (disambiguation). I think they are unnecessary and excessive due to WP:PTM. If someone wants to look up "Golden apple" they will type that in, it's unnecessary to have it linked at apple WP:PTM states, "A disambiguation page is not a search index. Do not add a link that merely contains part of the page title, or a link that includes the page title in a longer proper name, where there is no significant risk of confusion". No one will confuse "The Little Apple" for example with "apple". Manual_of_Style/Disambiguation_pages also suggests not to list them, as they are not close enough in spelling or gramatical tense to warrant inclusion. I also fail to understand why s/he would list just 2 DABs for the above Apple cities, but not, say Appleton, what's the difference. I posted on the user's talk page, with no response, while s/he reverted my edits. Thoughts? C T F 8 3 ! 03:43, 4 January 2013 (UTC)


 * WP:PTM offers no guidance on the contents of the See also section of a dab page. Such partial title matches that have some overlap with the ambiguous term are typically included in the see also section. older ≠ wiser 03:46, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * That's why I also created this link which does. Please explain to me which of those 4 bullets compares to confusing "apples" with "the little apple" or "apple tree". Also, if you're gonna add Apple River and Apple Valley, why did you not add Appleton? C T F 8 3 !  04:00, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The language of WP:MOSDAB is deliberately not presented as a comprehensive list or meant to be overly restrictive. The examples given are those most likely to be encountered. Can you conclusively say with certainty that entities such as Apple River and Apple Valley are never referred to as "apple" or that no one would look for them at the apple disambiguation page? I didn't include appleton because I was mostly just restoring entries you had removed, I thought without good reason. I wasn't considering what else might be included. But even so, unlike Apple River or Apple Valley, I very much doubt anyone would refer to any "appleton" as simply "apple". older ≠ wiser 04:09, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * That doesn't make sense! Have you ever heard anyone call Los Angeles - Angeles, New Orleans - Orleans, New York - York, New Hampshire - Hampshire, San Francisco - Francisco? I can go on and on. You don't just cut a key word out of the name of a city or other place. C T F 8 3 !  04:15, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * By your logic we should add Apple Blossom (disambiguation), Apple pie (disambiguation), Apples and oranges (disambiguation), Apple of Sodom (disambiguation), Adam's apple (disambiguation), and every other apple related DAB. Is it just pick and choose on what you want to add? C T F 8 3 !  04:16, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You're making poor comparisons. Has the golden apple of myth ever been called simply an "apple"? Quite likely. Has any of the Apple Rivers ever been called simply the "Apple"? Quite likely. Has the Big Apple ever been called simply the "Apple"? Quite likely. On the other hand, is apple pie often referred to as simply apple? Not very likely. Is Adam's apple often referred to as simply "apple"? Not very likely. Consider how confusing such colloquialisms can be for non-native speakers. While WP:PTM does exclude such tangents from the main listing, there is no harm and some benefit to including terms with overlapping usage in see also. older ≠ wiser 04:35, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Disagree. I find it very difficult to believe anyone has ever referred to, for instance, "the golden apple myth" as "the apple". Ditto for the rest of the examples. If these are "quite likely", it should be easy to find at least one example of them. Yet my considerable Google-fu has failed to turn up a single example. Let's also not use absolutism as a trump for common sense, which appears to be the suggestion. Maury Markowitz (talk) 12:20, 17 January 2013 (UTC)


 * To second what Bkonrad said, particularly when it comes to deciding what might be appropriate in a See also section, but also what goes in the main list, there's always a measure of judgement and discrimination involved. Could this use reasonably be commonly referred to by the ambiguous term alone? If a user comes to this page searching for the ambiguous term, could s/he reasonably be searching for this instead? You're absolutely right, CTF83!, that we would do users no service by larding a dab page with every possible near match. But it is possible to exercise some judgement in the matter and provide users with navigation to topics they might logically be looking for while omitting those that seem highly unlikely. -- Shelf Skewed  Talk  05:28, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * So...is that just a neutral reponse? Who decides what term is close to the main DAB page to decide what to list? Bkonrad, looks like a lot of that is your opinion and WP:OR. If someone asks what kind of pie I want, I say simply apple. I've twice linked what 4 examples are given for the see also section, none of what you type is related to any of those. C T F 8 3 !  05:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Who decides? As with anything at Wikipedia, any editor who chooses to edit the page. Or, if there is a disagreement, as in this case, a discussion among interested editors arriving at a consensus. This discussion should probably be moved to Talk:Apple (disambiguation), unless you are looking for a blanket statement clarifying the guidelines for all pages. But I don't think such a thing is possible, as each page and set of entries presents its own set of possibilities. To stick to the present case and your examples, I think Apple Blossom (disambiguation) and Apple pie (disambiguation) might be useful additions to the See also section, and the other three you mention would not. But as I said, such a discussion probably belongs at the dab page's talk page.-- Shelf Skewed  Talk  06:54, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Well apple dab has been dead for 6 months, so I didn't bother posting there. While the disagreement I'm having is specifically about apple, this discussion can have broader guidelines for what to include. C T F 8 3 !  11:26, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Mont and Mont. as separate dab pages
There's an interesting discussion at Articles for deletion/Mont.. Pam D  22:18, 10 January 2013 (UTC)