Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision/Archive 10

Germany or West Germany?
Hey, WikiProject Eurovision. I noticed that edited a bunch of the yearly Eurovision pages, changing Germany to West Germany. Do we have policy on this? I think that it should be presented as West Germany if they were introduced as West Germany in the contest itself, which will have to be double-checked. (Also, said user changed "spokespersons" to "spokesmen", which I undid per the Manual of Style on gender-neutrality). Mr. Gerbear (talk) 08:48, 19 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I've only just noticed this thread Gerbear, so sorry. Mike22r seems to be out of line with those changes.  Even the official website do not use West Germany.  I've been bold and reverted all his actions accordingly.  Now do we warn him about his errors or leave it be?   Wesley  ☮  Mouse  21:16, 30 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Oops just saw this reply now. I had only warned him over the gender-neutrality thing, but he hasn't come back since May so I think we should just leave it be for now. Mr. Gerbear (talk) 00:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

RfC on the article layout of Eurovision Song Contest by country articles
This RfC will attempt to address what sections and content should normally be included in Eurovision Song Contest by country articles, such as Romania in the Eurovision Song Contest, United Kingdom in the Eurovision Song Contest, as well as Ukraine in the Junior Eurovision Song Contest and so on. Wesley ☮  Mouse  15:33, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

As promised at the previous RfC on the layout of Eurovision Song Contest by year articles, now that the dust has settled, it is time to restart an RfC on the country ones as well (the previous RfC can be found in the talk archives. Like before, at least initially, this RfC will primarily be on a section-by-section basis with discussion on if a section listed should be included or not, and if so, what content should it contain and how should it be formatted i.e. as a table, list, or prose? This would be also a good opportunity to discuss if any sections should be split into sub-articles. The results of this RfC will be used to determine how such articles should be laid out in the future. Please note that this RfC also covers the Junior Eurovision Song Contest and any other sister/spin-off contests covered under WikiProject Eurovision where applicable. Wesley ♦ Mouse 11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Section-by-section
Feel free to add any other sections which need discussion as appropriate. This listing includes a section if it is present in two or more Eurovision Song Contest by country articles, these being articls listed under countries at Template:Eurovision Song Contest. Wesley ♦ Mouse 11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Lead

 * Add comments here.

Infobox

 * Add comments here.

History

 * There are many variations in how history content is presented across articles. Often there is simply a history section, as in Albania in the Eurovision Song Contest as the heading across articles, or there is just an absences section instead (e.g. Portugal in the Eurovision Song Contest), or sometimes history related content is split into several sections, as in Italy in the Eurovision Song Contest. Wesley ♦ Mouse  11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * We should probably standardize what goes in the history section, and some sort of outline on how it should be written, just for consistency's sake. Mr. Gerbear (talk) 06:31, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with you on that one Mr Gerbear. I've posted a few suggestions throughout this RfC.   Wesley  ☮  Mouse  14:05, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Records

 * Sometimes appears, as in Ireland in the Eurovision Song Contest. Wesley ♦ Mouse  11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Seems very trivial and unnecessary. If it can't be incorporated into the history section then it's probably not worth mentioning at all. Pickette (talk) 19:40, 11 June 2013 (UTC)


 * That probably would be better to be fair. It would help to expand the history section.  And some articles do not even have history sections, so this approach would help in creating such sections too.   Wesley  ☮  Mouse  13:53, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not a fan of the records section, at least in the state that it exists in that Ireland article. Not only is it not sourced, but it's actually just trivia. Nothing listed is actually a "record" that Ireland holds. Relevant facts about the country's participation can be in the history section. Off the top of my head, I can think of Greece placing in the top 10 since the introduction of the semi-finals in 2004 (with the exception of 2012) as the type of trivia that would be okay; that fact is also well publicized. Things like Ireland averaged 74 points per contest are way too trivial. Grk1011 (talk) 18:55, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Contestants
Should incorporate links to individual country by year articles. Also, a limit on the amount of pictures that get added? Pickette (talk) 19:40, 11 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Links yes I agree. Pictures, could we not have a "gallery" section towards the end of the article, and place them all in there?   Wesley  ☮  Mouse  13:54, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think we need to include pictures in this section. Have one or two pictures of participants from noteworthy years in the history section. The rest can be on the individual country by year pages. I don't think these haphazardly placed pictures add much to the article anyway. Grk1011 (talk) 18:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to agree with you regarding the images. I had tested something on Ukraine in the Eurovision Song Contest by placing the images into a gallery section, purely for comparison reasons.  But even I think that adopting that option would be overzealous.  What's that phrase?  "Less is more".   Wesley  ☮  Mouse  19:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There should definitely be some sort of limit to pictures. There is a golden ratio of pictures to content, and the only pictures that should be added are those that support content. the  two  sean  17:00, 13 August 2013 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thetwosean (talk • contribs)

Voting history
About the "Most points given" and "Most points received", I think that we should make it clear what points are given and how. I am personally in favor of separating completely points given in finals and points given in semifinals, and I'm not too strongly opposed to keep only points given in finals.

One think I'm completely in favor is removing anything that goes like '' "NOTE: The tables with points from 2004 include points awarded in both finals and semi-finals where the highest point from the final/semi-final is picked." '' I think this metodology is kind of arbitrary and the results are unclear. Not A Superhero (talk) 15:39, 9 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I had mentioned on the old RfC for these that the voting history can be a bit of a hindrance at times. They are constantly a target of IP vandals, and when they do alter them, then we are having to manually re-calculate the voting history (which is now in its 58th year) and goes against WP:SYNTHNOT, which then makes the calculation original research as there is no actual website that contains these overall voting results.  And also it was pointed out last time by CT Cooper that they violate the spirit of WP:NOR and WP:SYNTHESIS.  So I still support a full removal them, unless someone can convince me that they are more valuable than a headache and are not violating any guidelines.   Wesley ♦ Mouse  15:55, 9 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Does this website suffice for a source? I think that it's best to keep this information in the article as it is valuable. Mr. Gerbear (talk) 06:35, 10 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Ooohh something like that would mean that we're not infringing WP:SYHTHNOT, WP:NOR, and WP:SYNTHESIS. I wonder if there is a way that we could protect just these sections from the grubby hands of vandals?   Wesley ♦ Mouse  13:48, 10 June 2013 (UTC)


 * MrGerbear, that website you provided has been an absolute godsend of help. All this week I've done an extensive exercise across all the country articles and updated the voting history sections accordingly using the database from that website.  So if any of them change between now and the next Eurovision, then we are safe to say they're vandalism edits.  I've also been bold and simplified the section headers for these sections.  All of them used "Voting history (19xx - 20xx)".  Why have include a chronological period in the section header?  A simple "Voting history" as a title is very self-explanatory to show what that section is all about.  A very brief prose that I have used (for example "As of xxxx, 'Country' voting history is as follows...").  That allows us to be flexible with the years, and removed the need to include years in the section header.  I've also modified the tables themselves, and the look much better than they previously were.  So I am now more inclined to support these sections existence.  Although perhaps a short paragraph to explain a bit about them would be an even bigger improvement.   Wesley  ☮  Mouse  13:39, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

*Moved from Talk:United Kingdom in the Eurovision Song Contest. Wesley ☮  Mouse  13:36, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I was wondering if we could replace the current voting section on the UK's page with the section bellow that I've designed. The design I've created is minimal and takes up less space, it is optional to look at with a "Hide" or "show" feature and also includes all vote to and from the UK since the 1950's, unlike the current design which only starts from 1975. I believe we should not ignore votes from 1957-1974 as they are a crucial part of the UK's voting history. This new design also shows how the UK's voting patterns have changed over the decades. This design is also perfect for years to come. Please look at the design fully before deciding. :) Karl (talk) 12:37 (BST/GMT) 18 July 2013.


 * X denotes that the country giving or receiving points did not compete in that decade.
 * Andorra, Czech Republic, Montenegro and San Marino are not in the points given by the United Kingdom in the Grand Final grid as they are yet to qualify to a Grand Final.


 * Very strong oppose: The voting history should only show a top-5 per previous consensus that has been in place for many years now, and has worked perfectly throughout. Collapsible boxes in articles are not to be used (see MOS:COLLAPSE) unless they are consolidating information already covered within articles, such as the ones used to show split results on Eurovision by Year articles.  The main results are kept uncollapsible, whilst the split results are collapsed.  On articles such as these, the voting history is not mentioned within the articles, and therefore hiding the content in collapsed boxes would be infeasible.   Wesley  ☮  Mouse  13:24, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Very Strongly Agree: Why should it only remain top-5? People are getting very confused by the current voting sections because;
 * They do not include years between 1956-1974
 * They can't find out how many points the United Kingdom has given to another country that is not in the top 5.
 * The grid design that has been offered is highly detailed and explains what countries gave and received which points within which decade. This design that has been offered gives the reader more information then the lack of which is currently being offered. Whether it's collapsed or not, I think your "dumbing" the readers by refusing to have this... It's like your saying they're too stupid to open or hide a box. "On articles such as these, the voting history is not mentioned within the articles", then can we change this so it is? -_-! Karl 16:28 18 July 2013 (GMT/BST) —Preceding undated comment added 15:28, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No Karl, I am not "dumbing" a reader. It is manual of style policy, there's no ifs and buts about it.  The guidelines state it cannot be done that way.  And a top 5 is by far easier to have rather than "padding" the article with the entire voting history.  If we expand it further, then we're giving the vandals more to vandalise.  Are you prepare to start tidying up after them 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?  The top 5 is precise and sufficient on these articles - which has been the case ever since this project has been in operation.  Also your proposal stipulates you agree anyway, so why emphasis it further by stating "very strong agree"?  Without sounding pragmatic here, but there are strong signs of incompetence or lack of grasping guidelines/policies which are put in place to aid us in how to right the perfect article.  Deviating away from them (in the way that your proposal would be doing) would only make things worse, not better.  Don't fix what isn't broken.  Did you read any of the policy that I linked to above?  If not, then please read it carefully at MOS:COLLAPSE.  Also the voting history on ALL articles cover voting from 1957 to present day.  I know this, as I spent hours and hours tidying up all the voting tables to show the correct voting history from 1957 onwards.   Wesley  ☮  Mouse  16:00, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Hostings

 * Present in Austria in the Eurovision Song Contest and a few others. Wesley ♦ Mouse  11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Marcel Bezençon Awards

 * As I wrote under at the OGAE section and as I wrote above at the ESC annual articles at the location section - presenting only brief-necessery background on this organization, after and in relation, to country's achievements in one or more of it's awards-categories, and blend it as a paragraph alongside OGAE paragraph, split public/jury results paragraph under sub-section "Achivements", and alongside sub-section of "Incidents" - and put all of this under the scope of section "Country's participation in public" or "Country's participation in public and media". אומנות (talk) 22:29, 13 June 2013 (UTC)


 * We do have the history section on some articles (which could do with being expanded to all articles to be fair). But how about a new section "Participation", which we could then sub-section "contestants" into that, and also "Other awards" as a sub-section which will allow us to amalgamate into prose format all the other awards such as MBA, OGAE (if agreed) and Congratulations: 50 Years.   Wesley  ☮  Mouse  13:57, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what is my opinion in regards to "Conrgatulations", it's independent with it's own wide public vote as in every annual ESC + It's inclusion of previous popular songs to compete again for a title a-la "champion of champions" furthers it as more impressive than an annual ESC. On the other hand, "MBA"-"OGAE" are other "token of appreciation" in parallel to each annual contest that has it's own public-jury voting. In other words, I see "50's congratulations show" as it's own glorified ESC edition, and "MBA"+"OGAE" as an addition to each annual ESC edition. Therefore I'm not sure if it's not better mentioning a country's achievement at "Congratulations" at the same general section of contestants through the years, or blend it with Marcel and OGAE.
 * I personaly don't mind calling the section "Participation", but I still think the sub-section should be than called "Public and Media" with including all kinds of acceptance - split public/jury results and I also add now about "betting-odds" (if betting agencies managed to predict a winning country in a certain year, with info about it's odd-relation-numbers according to amount of gamblers - there are articles on ESCToday every year, such as about Sweden before 2012 ESC and few that followed predictions for Denmark before 2013 ESC), also the "Commentators" table is aprropriate as it shows which TV-stations provided media-reviewers that supply explenations and their own opinions to the public during the broadcast. And then another paragraph for OGAE/MBA and other votings. Since I view the other awards as one paragraph within few paragraphs of covering public and media aspects, I think that "Other Awards" title should be sub-sub-section-level and also be called "Other Titles". I think of the Marcel Awards as more appreciation achievemnts in reagrds to acceptance, rather than material awards, and I see a "title"-achievement even more as reflecting in regards to the OGAE. אומנות (talk) 12:29, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Winnner by OGAE members

 * Example: Hungary in the Eurovision Song Contest. Wesley ♦ Mouse  11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Winning a fan poll doesn't seem that important to highlight in such a way. Pickette (talk) 19:40, 11 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Well actually, I think the OGAE sections are just as important of a section as the rest of the Eurovision-related material. It did seem to be in favour by some at the last RfC that this could do with being improved in the way we did on Eurovision by Year articles merge this, the Marcel Bezençon and the Congratulations:50 Years sections together under the header "Other awards". Add a brief prose to explain what they are with a hatnote to direct to the main article. And then style them in the same way as we have on ESC by year articles too.  Besides, some of the songs from national selections go onto OGAE Second Chance Contests and furthermore win those contests.  So we could do with finding a way to tie-together the two (Eurovision/OGAE).  And IMHO the only way we could do that is by using the "country" articles.  Would be a shame to see all that hard work on improving the OGAE articles go to waste.   Wesley ♦ Mouse  02:03, 12 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't think so. The Marcel Bezençon awards and the Congratulations: 50 Years event are created/endorsed by the EBU, while the OGAE voting is just a fan poll for fans and who they pick as the "winner" is irrelevant and pretty trivial. The other contests OGAE organizes are as notable as the various fan contests organized across the internet. Pickette (talk) 13:59, 12 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually you are incorrect there Pickette, believe me I should know - I have been spending long hours researching these so that I can get the respective articles improved to a high standard. The Marcel Bezençon awards have been around since 2002.  In 2002/2003 OGAE were responsible for awarding the "Fan Award", which was endorsed by the EBU.  Since then the award recipients have been decided by the international press, the commentators, and a jury.  Also OGAE is recognised by the EBU as a trustworthy organisation.  The inclusion of OGAE material is just as important to country articles as they are to the annual articles - and with a lot of significant support from a lot of project members in the past in regards to the inclusion on annual articles.   Wesley ♦ Mouse  14:14, 12 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd only include the 2002/2003 Marcel Bezençon Fan award then as that is the only time the OGAE voting was actually recognized as an achievement of some kind. It has since been discontinued for whatever reason. I don't support the inclusion of various OGAE factoids across the Eurovision articles. Just because the EBU has recognized the OGAE as a trustworthy organisation for fans doesn't make everything they vote on or do notable and relevant. Pickette (talk) 14:34, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

So the simple fact that OGAE are voting on Eurovision songs that are mentioned on Eurovision articles means they should be ignored!? Have you forgotten Pickete that we are discussing Country in the Eurovision Song Contest articles here? Marcel Bezençon has its own article, so if we're to no longer include OGAE, then we should no longer include Marcel Bezençon either. We shouldn't be favouring one over the other - they are both as equally recognised as the other, and they are both in relation to Eurovision, which is the main factor here. OGAE is just as notable as the Eurovision Song Contest - so to exclude something that is notable from an article is just utterly pathetic. I think one needs to familiarise themselves with WP:GNG guidelines. Wesley ♦ Mouse 15:21, 12 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Before saying that OGAE is as notable as the ESC (which I don't follow: how does a fan organization match the contest in notability?) are there multiple, third-party, non-Eurovision-centric sources that cover the OGAE? Only then can they be notable enough for inclusion. You also say that OGAE is trustworthy to the EBU, but you link to an OGAE page. We need third-party sources to verify everything. Re-read WP:GNG, sources must be ""independent of the subject".


 * Try taking yourself out of the Eurovision bubble: would you think the OGAE is notable? Mr. Gerbear (talk) 15:26, 12 June 2013 (UTC)


 * In answer to your question regarding third-party sources Gerbear, yes. ESCToday, ESCXtra, and other Eurovision websites all mention and have links to OGAE clubs.  And one only needs to search for OGAE on Eurovision.tv to find that they too show support for OGAE by reading the numerous articles published by the EBU.  We have also used OGAE sources for citing material such as confirmed participation on Eurovision by Year articles throughout the years.  As for the other contests, OK they are organised by a "fan club", but those contests contain songs from national preselections, and unless I have misunderstood the meaning of a national selection for the last god knows how many years, then there is the connection between OGAE and Eurovision, which the two could do with being tied together to add knowledge to the general reader.  And the only way to do that would be via Eurovision articles and vice versa.  Take for example  contest.  Pastora from Spain went to Baku with the song that won the national selection, although she did not win in Baku.  Yet on the otherhand, one of the other songs from the same national final went onto the OGAE Second Chance Contest and won that.  Notability that one of Spain's songs from their preselection process (which are mentioned on Country in Eurovision articles) should really have a mention.   Wesley ♦ Mouse  15:49, 12 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Hardly any source outside of Eurovision fansites mention OGAE contests and fanclubs and the winners of their voting. Eurovision fansites only report on it because they cater specifically to Eurovision fans. In the scope of the contest and the country in the contest, it's entirely irrelevant. The Marcel Bezençon Awards are organized and distributed by the EBU during the contest and are a part of the contest. OGAE voting and their various contest results are only relevant to Eurovision fans. Pickette (talk) 16:33, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Well naturally OGAE will only be mentioned on Eurovision-related fansites - the clue is in the name "Organisation Générale des Amateurs de  l'Eurovision ". You're not exactly going to find them mentioned elsewhere now are you!  The same goes for Eurovision; the majority of news is reported on Eurovision-related fansites.  The Marcel Bezençon Awards were not created by the EBU, they were founded in 2002 by Christer Björkman, who was Sweden's representative at Eurovision .  And if OGAE contest results are only relevant to Eurovision fans, then why do so many former Eurovision participants agree to participate in the respective OGAE contests, and graciously accept the awards they win?  Why do so many representatives also attend OGAE club meetings?  If OGAE is not important to this project, then why do we include them within out project scope?  The fact that it is fan-based is irrelevant here.  The fact that there is a connection between Eurovision and OGAE, needs to be outlined and that connection portrayed across to the unfamiliar reader (one who is none the wiser about Eurovision) about the success that some participants from National Selection Shows, which are organised by the national broadcasters, which are also members of the EBU.  So when we write about Pastora Soler in Spain in the Eurovision Song Contest 2012, and mention that "Quédate conmigo" won the ticket to Baku, while another of her entries from the same selection show "Tu vida es tu vida", which finished 2nd in the national selection, went on to OGAE Second Chance Contest 2012, and came 1st.  That isn't important enough to mention to the general reader?  Well if that's the case, then why bother even mentioning any of the other songs that too part in national selections on these articles?  Might as well be simple and only write about the songs that were only selected.   Wesley ♦ Mouse  16:55, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The fact that OGAE contests aren't mentioned elsewhere is a good reason why they shouldn't be mentioned on Wikipedia either. The fanclub results are irrelevant to the entry and the contest. I don't know why OGAE is in this project's scope, to me it seems like a bunch of fan articles with information only a fan would ever look for. It instills some kind of false importance that a song with no competing stake won an online second chance fan contest. It's way too trivial and irrelevant in my opinion. As for covering national finals, they provide background into how an entry was selected to represent a particular nation; an entry that is actually competing in the Eurovision Song Contest. And the Marcel Bezençon Awards are integrated into the lead-up to the contest and covered on eurovision.tv with a news article and a video recording. Pickette (talk) 17:26, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Wesley, the important thing here is that we must only include things from sources that are independent from the topic in discussion. Things that don't primarily have to do with Eurovision.
 * Also, it's faulty logic in saying that taking a closer look at OGAE's notability would lead to ignoring national selections. They have little to do with each other's notability. Mr. Gerbear (talk) 18:46, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

My view is that both OGAE and Marcel Bezencon achivements are sided with additional but not main value achievemnts, can't be equal to the actual voting and info of ESC evening-shows, but also that OGAE have value and interest for the ESC from public-fans point of view.

Story: I myself was involved in some activities-parties of OGAE-Israel and I saw that after all, it's a very small group of fans (like 70) and that the voting is very casual. Also, there is the simple fact that OGAE and Marcel voting isn't influencing ESC outcome (unlike ESC vote and also national finals that choose entries for forming the international contest, like has been said). Also, the OGAE consists of only hundreds of amateur fans, while ESC vote is based on hundred-thousands of people with maybe millions of text-votes and professional juries with some of them being well-known. On the other hand, OGAE members doing vast activities including making organized trips in different ESC countries as well as bringing many ESC singers (like in 2012 Izabo from Israel and Valentina Monetta from San-Marino attended the party in Israel), and in 2013 it is known that SVT saved many standing-places close to the stage for OGAE mambers, as well that in previous years OGAE members get "journalists-cards" to attend press-centers and get places in the audiance. Overall, during the last years the OGAE is one of the factors that keep ESC alive with it's massive-eager fan support and activities, while some of the public lost interest in ESC compared to older years. And I also agree that it's natural that OGAE news will are mentioned on ESC news sites - since this is their place and connection. Also news about ESC contest itself are mostly mentioned on ESC-sites throughout the year and only mentioned in the wider-media some days before and after the international contest and on a certain country's wider-media some days before and after it's own national contest/selection.

So I agree in parts and disagree in parts with the other views. (And my view relate to both Countries in ESC articles and Annual ESC articles - as I wrote here above at the Location section). Both this OGAE and Marcel awards shouldn't be emphasized equally with different sections and tables like the info and table of the country's ESC entries and voting achievements. They should be mentioned briefly in a regular text of seperate paragraphs under a united section, with focusing on the country's awards in them and then give only necessery background informtaion about OGAE and Marcel Bezencon - so the article stays focused on the relevent issue and not written in a way that it enters the OGAE and and Marcel Bezencon "worlds". Only information about the essence and function of the organization in relations to ESC - without mentioning founders and things as that it's not political/non-govermental. It's enough to write that it's a fan club organization and give reference within the paragraph to the main OGAE article - where all this other details are elaborating on the organization.

אומנות (talk) 22:19, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Hypothetical example with Italy with imaginary examples of winning some Marcel awards, some OGAE awards : Taking achivements and incidents of this country's overall ESC participation and specific entries - in regards to media and public attention and acceptance - and put them on "Italy in the Eurovision Song Contest" article like this:

(SECTION:) Country's participation in public (or: Country's participation in public and media)

(SMALLER TITLE OF SUB-SECTION:) Achivements

(paragraph and table about Public vs. Jury results:) From the year 2008 onwards, the EBU based the Eurovision Song Contest voting on the scale of counting the public votes as 50% and the jury votes as 50% of the outcome, with also publishing after the contest's finals the split results. Here is how the public and the jury voted for Italy seperately since 2008:

(Underneath this paragraph adding a table with columns of Year, Public's placing, Jury placing on final and semi-final - in the case of Italy only final. This table elaborates on the first table that shows the final and semi song's title/language/performer/overall-combined placing - and give the achivement of each song from 2008 onwards from the public and jury's views. However there is no need for scores, only placings - useless to write how many points the song achieved when there isn't introduction of other country's songs from that year to compare with. On the other hand it's good to write placing and in brackets how many songs competed in each year - giving an idea about the quntity, competing field).

(Paragraph about Marcel Bezencon:) In 2007, Italy's entry "La-Li-Pop" performed by "x" and compsed by "Xx", "Z" and "M", won the Composer Award of the Marcel Bezençon Awards for most original composition, as voted by a jury consisting of the 2007 contest's entries composers. In 2011, Italy's entry "Madness of Love" won the Press Award, as voted on by the accredited media and press during the 2011 event, and the Artistic Award as voted on by the commentators, with the Marcel Bezencon organization holding three categories; Press Award, Artistic Award and Composer Award, first handed out during the Eurovision Song Contest 2002 and which are named after the creator of the Eurovision Song Contest - Marcel Bezençon.

(Paragraph about OGAE:) In 2007 and 2012, Italy's respective entries: "La-Li-Pop" and "L'amore è femmina (Out of Love)", won the voting of OGAE - Organisation Générale des Amateurs de l'Eurovision, an international organisation that was founded in 1984 and consists of a network of 40 Eurovision Song Contest fan clubs across Europe and beyond.

(SMALLER TITLE OF SUB-SECTION:) Incidents

In 1974, Italy's entry "Si" by Gigliola Cinquetti was censored from radio and television stations in Italy due to claims of political message before the Italian elections, in 1985 Italy originaly had an entry named "I love Italy" which was accused by critics of plagiarism and was replaced with the entry "Magic ho Magic"...

In my view, this is the most valuable and interesting way to present such public and media information in all ESC articles - capturing it under such section of public and media acceptance and achivements. As for other contests of OGAE (like with the example of Pastora Soler which her song that finished 2nd in the NF won OGAE second chance), my view is that it's not relevent anymore to "Country in Eurovision" articles since it's about songs that didn't reach ESC to begin with. But on the same scale, I think such information can be blend in more specific articles such as: "Spain in the 2012 Eurovision Song Contest" or "Spain's National Final for 2012 ESC" - in a way that shows how this specific national final songs that were performed by Pastora Soler, as comprising this specific national-final event - got accepted and what other awards and titles they achieved within the public and the media.

אומנות (talk) 22:19, 13 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah I think an Other Awards section with a brief paragraph referring only to whether a particular entry was the winner of the OGAE vote is better than letting it have its own section and including a table. But I would only support OGAE facts being referred to when they are in regards to voting for the entries in a particular Eurovision Song Contest. References to contests that the OGAE organize, such as Second Chance, should be left out of all Eurovision articles, in my opinion. The contests they organize are purely fan material of interest to only OGAE members and possibly some other Eurovision fans. Pickette (talk) 18:46, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I have noticed a slight error on my part. I forgot the RfC I rebooted was just for Country in Eurovision; and not Country in Eurovision by Year articles.  When I mentioned about national selection songs that went onto OGAE being noted in articles, it was on the Country by Year articles; to which they would be better included; as it we would be providing informative details regarding a song that took part in a national final.   Wesley ♦ Mouse  12:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Eurovision fans are NOT automatic OGAE members though, which is what I getting at. Pickette (talk) 14:29, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * You should stick to discussing the matter at hand rather than me as a user. Pickette (talk) 15:27, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I've simply been discussing this OGAE matter here. I never made a personal remark about you or discussed anything other than the topic of this particular discussion. Feel free to re-read this discussion. Pickette (talk) 16:20, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I wont comment on that because I'm not going to derail this discussion with stuff like this. I've done nothing wrong here and I've stayed on topic. If you have a personal issue with me, you can comment on my talk page. Pickette (talk) 17:04, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what your question is really? But maybe you can clarify a bit and ask it on my talk page and I'll answer. Pickette (talk) 18:22, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Wesley, I don't know what the history is here between you and Pickette, but I can see nothing rude about the way he has responded to you above. Please could you lower the tone - this is after all a public place for discussing the article. AndrewRT(Talk) 15:28, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, Wesley, I think it's you that needs to take a Wikibreak. I saw no condescension coming from Pickette at all. The first sign of hostility was when you said "OGAE members are Eurovision fans, d'oh!" This was unwarranted; her statement never contradicted that. All she was saying that in the greater scheme of things, OGAE-organized contests are non-notable. And then you say "Calm down Pickette before you give yourself a hernia," after what seemed like a natural, non-offensive response from Pickette. The only attitude I see in this entire discussion stemmed from you, Wesley, which mostly comes from a lack of comprehension in what Pickette is trying to say. Please assume good faith, and keep calm and rational. Disagreement does not equal a personal attack.
 * Also, I chanced upon Pickette's talk page where you both agreed on an Interaction Ban. Does this mean that Pickette is no longer welcome in this discussion, as you are involved as well, Wesley? I find this rather disconcerting.
 * All in all though, I agree with אומנות's format. I do prefer sticking to prose rather than putting things into tables, which is more encyclopedic. Mr. Gerbear (talk) 06:12, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Mr. Gerbear, we are discussing the matter on Wesley Mouse's talk page. If you're interested in knowing what is happening in regards to this, you can look there. For the record, I don't endorse Wesley Mouse's account of the events on AndrewRT's talk page and I've never sent malicious emails to Wesley Mouse or anyone on Wikipedia for that matter. I didn't even know email was possible on Wikipedia until I was accused of doing such a thing. Pickette (talk) 20:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for trying to make amends with each other. Hopefully everything turns out well for the good of the Project. Mr. Gerbear (talk) 00:41, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I've had a bit of an idea regarding this section, and would love to read the views of others. Details on OGAE would probably be better off being included in articles such as Austria in the OGAE Second Chance Contests, although there are no such articles as of yet, and they would probably fail the odd wikipolicy here or there. But if such articles were allowed, then would this be a better solution to the whole OGAE issue? At the end of the day the contests must be notable enough for them to be reported on Eurovision-related websites. What is notable to one may not be notable to another, but nevertheless notability is there. It is like what is common knowledge to one person may not be as common of knowledge to another. And without spreading that knowledge, then we would not be assisting it to become common knowledge to everyone. And then perhaps in articles that this RfC is covering, we would only need to briefly mention them in prose format perhaps using the suggestion that mentioned above? And I still think that mentioning any song that failed in a national final but gained success in an OGAE contest could be worthwhile adding brief detail about, but of course in their respective annual pages such as Spain in the Eurovision Song Contest 2012. Wesley ☮  Mouse  13:50, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Commentators and spokespersons

 * Some variations in the heading across articles.  Wesley ♦ Mouse  11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Congratulations: 50 Years of the Eurovision Song Contest

 * Present where applicable, such as in Turkey in the Eurovision Song Contest. Wesley ♦ Mouse  11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Incorporate into history section? Pickette (talk) 19:40, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd support putting it in the history section. It was a one time event and can be summarized in a sentence or two. Grk1011 (talk) 19:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Other issues

 * Discuss any other issues which don't fit under a section heading here. And I would suggest that all project members be notified of this discussion. Wesley ♦ Mouse  11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I have been invited to comment here by the RFC Bot and come here as an outsider not aware of the history, so apologies if I'm repeating something that has already been discussed.

I am entirely unconvinced of the value of this approach. What is relevant, reliably supported or stylistically desirable will vary considerably over the articles in this section. It would make more sense to write each article individually based on the information that is available in reliable sources and relevant to the particular country and/or year. The danger with the standardised template approach is that we will end up forcing in unsourced or poorly sourced information just because it says so in the template. Hope this is helpful. AndrewRT(Talk) 15:18, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Summary
Since this discussion has expired, I think it is time to officially close it and summarize what has occurred. I was a participant, so any disagreements should be posted below this summary.


 * Lead: No discussion.
 * Infobox: No discussion.
 * History: No clear consensus was established. However, standardisation of what should go in this section for consistency was suggested.
 * Records: Agreement that this section was trivial, and that it should be merged into the History section.
 * Contestants: Agreement to include wikilinks to individual 'Country by Year' articles. Any pictures to be moved.  Any that are relevant to content within the History section be moved there, and the rest from noteworthy years, be moved to a new section at the bottom entitled Picture gallery.
 * Voting history: Voting history should be kept to a top-5 only, with a written prose to explain what these sections are.
 * Hosting: No discussion. Although a written prose explaining what the tables are for would be preferable.
 * Marcel Bezençon Awards: No clear consensus was established due to lack of participation from every member of the project. Only 2 members held discussion on this section, and as a result nothing solid was established in means of layout changes.
 * Winner by OGAE members: No clear consensus was established due to lack of participation from every member of the project. Only 5 members held discussion on this section, and as a result nothing solid was established in means of layout changes, although prose was discussed by some. This topic really needs more input from the entire project in order to find an overall consensus.
 * Commentators and spokespersons: No discussion. Although a written prose explaining what the tables are for would be preferable.
 * Congratulations: 50 Years of the Eurovision Song Contest: No clear consensus was established due to lack of participation from every member of the project. Only 3 members held discussion on this section, and the only solid debate that was established was to incorporate this section into the history section.
 * Notes: No discussion.
 * See also: No discussion.
 * References: No discussion.
 * External links: No discussion.
 * Other issues: No clear discussion was established. However, it was noted that what is relevant, reliably supported or stylistically desirable will vary considerably over articles on a case-by-case basis.  It was also noted that each article should be written on an individual basis, which is true that it should.  But to maintain some kind of consistency on how each article is presented I.E. section-by-section would be logical.

Wesley  Mᴥuse  19:17, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Other awards section: Presenting the "Other Awards" in prose only - this got a significant support, and not a mixture of tables and prose. Under "Marcel Bezençon Awards" you (Wesley Mouse) wrote: how about a new section "Participation", which we could then sub-section "contestants" into that, and also "Other awards" as a sub-section which will allow us to amalgamate into prose format all the other awards such as MBA, OGAE (if agreed) and Congratulations: 50 Years. That was also after and in regards to my proposal under "OGAE Winners" - to present the awards and other public reception within prose only. Under the "Ogae winners" you also wrote: "Perhaps in articles that this RfC is covering, we would only need to briefly mention them in prose format perhaps using the suggestion that אומנות (talk · contribs) mentioned above? So you were positive yourself towards prose only. Also, "Pickette" and "Mr. Gerbear" supported maintaining prose. Pickette wrote: "Yeah I think an Other Awards section with a brief paragraph referring only to whether a particular entry was the winner of the OGAE vote is better than letting it have its own section and including a table. And Mr. Gerbear wrote: "I agree with אומנות's format. I do prefer sticking to prose rather than putting things into tables, which is more encyclopedic.". So out of 4 users, 3 supported prose only and 1 (you) at least positive, if not also in favour, for presenting prose. אומנות (talk) 10:21, 3 October 2013 (UTC)


 * It would appear that you may have misinterpreted the summarising above. It clearly reads " No clear consensus has been established on inclusion/exclusion or the presentation of this section, with various proposals being made . However, the format (" Other awards ") currently used on Eurovision by Year articles with a mixture of tables and prose with full sourcing received significant support .".  This does not mean that everyone who commented on this section gave support, but the fact that one user (myself) did needed to be summarised.  As only 4 editors comments, with a 3-1 split that 1 is significant in terms of percentages (75% to 25% split).  Because no overall consensus was reached, then the method currently in use would continue - and I do not mean merging into "other awards".   Wesley   Mᴥuse  13:53, 3 October 2013 (UTC)


 * It was obvious you would go for your "misinterpreted what I said" step. The "no clear consensus for inclusion/exclusion" isn't relevent at this point, as the OGAE+MBA material currently stays; And 3 editors wrote in favour of prose and 1 (yourself) wrote forward also to blend that material within prose-paragraphs, after you saw my proposal is a good compromise that can soften Pickette and Mr. Gerbear to the inclusion of OGAE details in these articles. Otherwise the discussion would have just stayed in regards to presenting OGAE on countries-articles in tables - when both other editors still clearly objected presenting OGAE details at all on ESC-countries articles. Both I and eventually Pickette supported mentioning OGAE winners with clarifying from the get go that it under the term it would be in a paragraph and not highlighted in a table. And Mr. Gerbear preference to prose rather then tables was also in reply to my proposal. So no, there could have never be any significant support nor whatsoever support to a prose+tables mixture.
 * Furthermore, when I was the only one who supported you in regards to even mentioning "OGAE 2nd chance" contests on specific countries in specific ESCs (as "Spain in 2012 ESC") - you were eager to implement a prose-proposal further to these article-types in order to try and get agreement to include these over there; You self-offered to combine other OGAE's contests awards details within prose-pargraphs and sub-sections - also at those types of articles. Now, that you archived the above discussion and managed to keep your precious OGAE-details at least on the countries articles (until next RFC), you ignore the agreements and discussion-progress that surrounded the prose-proposals, including the one you "proposed". This way all the OGAE material will stay - and within prose+tables as well - so you get your way. The problem is that you had to support using prose and play along with the rest of the editors - speaking of eating the cake and having it too.
 * Also crystal clear, your convenience to reference others to discussions that took place a long time ago and between 3 people with 1-2 split opinions, as the consensus; And now it's convenient for you to dismiss these OGAE-prose discussion that was being held between 4 currently active editors, by claiming you are "a big chunk of %25" compared to 3 others which are "only 75%" with contradicting yourself from before when you also suggested prose-paragraphs. And now you portray your "summarized prose+tables" under the pretence that this is the general outcome.
 * As in regards to your "forum shoping" messages, I realy can't give a thought on what you think with your lack of comprehension of the policies and your false accusations, in light of the fact you go to others pages involving them in discussions in advance, and also use their pages to bad mouth others. I invited 2 editors that were already involved in this discussion to ask them to clarify their position in case of a doubt - because of your presentation of things. I didn't elaborate on it on their pages, and kept neutral with asking them to come here and make their final yes/no. Do you want to get blocked for trying to silence others?
 * If nobody else will care for the consensus that was established here in regards to ESC-countries and the amount of time and energy that was invested in all these prose-proposals (including your own!) that you seek to diminish, so be it. If Pickette and Mr. Gerbear will clarify here again that/if they indeed meant introducing the other awards within prose alone, and still desire to follow it, then this is the method that will be in use according to the discretion shown by this above discussion. If tables will still stay to present such awards - and Pickette and Mr. Gerbear and other users may go back to the start position with saying they don't want OGAE to appear on countries articles at all, I will fully support them. אומנות (talk) 01:24, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Please read WP:NPA - thank you. You accuse me of bullying, when I was only replying to your comment. I closed down this RfC as I was the user who opened it up, which is the correct procedure to do.  And not only that you have the audacity to threaten me?  Are you for real?  Do you really want to be blocked for threatening another user?  You are one brave man. Oh and for the record, consensus was not reached.  3 people were in favour of one proposal, 1 person in favour of another, and 70 other project members did not comment.  So the 70 no comments leave the situation in "no overall consensus" territory.   Wesley   Mᴥuse  10:58, 4 October 2013 (UTC) [UPD] I have rephrased the summary for those 3 sections to reflect the fact that not every member of this project participated and that ideally we need more members to add their input in order to find a reasonable consensus.  With a project membership of 75 and only 5 people overall discussed these sections, means that no overall consensus could be established.   Wesley   Mᴥuse  14:14, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Personal disputes aside, I do think אומנות has a point when it comes to consensus on this issue. You have declared consensus and agreement on a number of topics and issues in the past that have only had two/three people discussing them and some that had varying opinions and suggestions that deviated from the ultimate consensus summary. I think this is just a bit confusing because I have a sense that we're bound to abide by consensus established in the past discussions and deviations from that are not tolerated without further discussion. This seems like a similar discussion to what has occurred in past RfCs where a consensus has been declared, but in this instance the outcome is ambiguous. Also, I've noticed the summary suggests that users have agreed to implementing photo galleries in these articles, but the discussion seemed to be geared more towards eliminating/limiting the amount of pictures rather than shuffling all of them to their own section on the page. Pickette (talk) 02:05, 5 October 2013 (UTC)


 * As this was my first time in closing an RfC, I sought advice from a more experienced user on the closing procedures. Details of what to write were given, and I did state above that I updated the wording accordingly so that it read "no clear consensus" which is the case here.  As for the images, my summary doesn't suggest that users agreed to implementing photo galleries in these articles.  I said that any pictures to be moved (which is what User:Grk1011 mentioned, and he also suggested that any which are relevant to content within the History section be moved there, especially any from noteworthy years.  User:Theonesean stated that some images are important as long as we stick to the golden ratio of pictures to content (which I sort of grasped what he meant).  And the test that I did for Ukraine by implementing a photo gallery section seems to be getting rolled out by another user anyway.   Wesley   Mᴥuse  02:23, 5 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I think if there are any issues going forward, they can always be discussed further on the this talk page in a new section. I do have concerns about the photo gallery additions to these articles, however. I'm more in favour of adding relevant images to the history section than adding a series of photos in their own section at the bottom of the page. Though I would prefer the photo gallery method over a bunch of images framing the article. Perhaps this should be discussed more in order to determine the best way to proceed? Pickette (talk) 02:40, 5 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I would have expected more people to have participated in this RfC to be fair. After all they join this project for their enthusiasm in Eurovision, yet can't be arsed to participate in important debates like these.  And it is always the select few like you and I who end up looking at new ways to improve the articles.  Any ideas on how to get more "member participation" on these things?  It's the same with any RfC the project holds, people don't seem to care about the quality and standard of our articles.  I'm actively looking to find the name of the user who has burdened themselves with rolling out the photo gallery before anything was even finalised.  Found it, User:Karlwhen is setting up the photo gallery sections, whilst at the same time adding sort to articles too, which is actually a good template that I didn't know was in existence.   Wesley   Mᴥuse  02:46, 5 October 2013 (UTC)


 * No wesley, you tried removing a piece (and a big one) of my comment above, and on the same breath replying to that something you deleted with your warnings, and after trying to warn me on my talk page. What I said was in regards to the forum-shoping, not to your reply here, even though of course I don't accept your explenations here regardless. I have no problem you removed the official warning itself, as I know you have read it, and obviously as I'v put back the piece in regards to your consensus-shifts which is a mere fact in regards to your actions that I will definately express. Of course I also removed your threates from your comment, to help you reduce your own braveness-audacity and not get caught. And at this very same chance, I warmely suggest you go to 2014-ESC talk page and remove your snippets towards me and mainly Pickette, were you imply we aren't doing a proper job as contributors, that we just dislike to see things on the lead, and of-course - your speeches about Pickette at the "Kosove-Liechtenstein-Kazachstan" discussion - Since it's obviously so important for you to maintain "high-level" and civility.
 * Now, for this discussion, again, you change your arguments; You tried to determine that there was a significant support to keep mixture with tables, based on your opinion - after you even expressed yourself a proposal to use prose. Now you say that there was support for prose, but that 4 users aren't enough as there are 70+ members. You saw that more people didn't came here all these time and decided yourself to close the RFC. There has almost always been participation of between 3-to like maximum 10 people in various previous discussions. As Pickette said, there is a feeling things can't change. If others didn't participate in this discussion then it's their choice and there will always be another RFC in the future. But the fact that you changing the demands to change consensus with increasing the number of people that needs to be involved, won't encourage more people to participate. Also, nobody said you aren't entitled to close this RFC, but that you are obviously aren't to present a significant support which happenes to be in favour of what you like. And if you don't have the experiance to summarise correctly, next time simply ask in advance another user (preferably an admin), to manage an RFC. אומנות (talk) 04:14, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Pickette and I are actually talking very civilly now, or had you not noticed? I never cast threats to you in my comments, I was merely questioning your threats towards me. Which, for the record, I asked someone to double-check them, and was advised that I was right to place RPA on them, and I was also informed that I was right to question your remarks. It is you now who is showing more uncivil behaviour towards me, than I am towards you. And please do not tell me what I can and cannot do. If I chose to open an RfC then I shall do. You have no right to force me into silence. I would prefer that you and I no longer converse with each other, until you can learn to control your angst. Wesley  Mᴥuse  04:33, 6 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Once again, how so very convenient for you. First you handle the outcome-consensus in totaly different way then you used to before so everything will stay your way - total waste of time and dissrespect of the other project members, and now you claim that you "only question" my actions and didn't threaten me, and insisting on keeping your comment that I may get blocked. It's simply wonderful how everything in your mind adds up to you. And I'm "so very proud of you" that you finally manage to behave yourself towards Pickette. Believe me that I much more prefer to keep away from you, but as everyone explained you before, this is everyone's project and not your own. Obviously you don't notice the number of times and amount of attempts of me trying to compropmise between you and Pickette and make suggestions that you may also (and was) pleased with, and how many times me and others have been patient with you. There is a limit of swinishness that will be tolreated from you. I'v removed your content of warning again, as well as after I removed mine. As for telling others what they can or can't do, you are the master - you think you call all the shots in regards to determine consenus-policies and now further demonstrate how you altering others comments while claiming that your comments are justified and naive. If you will keep on getting your threats back, I will put back my justified warnings to you. And if you keep demonstrating your melicious ungrateful angst further, I will take matters forward. אומנות (talk) 05:18, 6 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Need I have to remind of a previous discussion back in February 2013, in which you were informed by an administrator that "the amount of time that [he] and others spent trying to accommodate your requests shows they were taken seriously" and that editors "were never going to drop everything and accept your radical proposals from the get go" and it's a "reality on this project that when a person suddenly appears and starts wanting radical change, then people might ask questions" and he also noted to you that it is "unfortunate that you choose to assume the worst whenever anything remotely critical comes your way - there is no conspiracy that thinks your here to destroy the project".


 * In that entire conversation you yourself gave me praise and called the administrator as being "nasty", then contradicted your claim by calling me nasty and the admin "wonderful" in the same conversation. You make a claim above that we are losing members in the project and trying to imply that it is of my fault people leave, just like made the same attack at me back in February.  The administrator reminded you, and you actually agreed that he was right, when he said to you directly "as for your claim that new editors are being pushed away - the short answer is that I don't think you yet know enough about this project to make a reasonable judgement. The long answer is that all Wikimedia projects are having issues with editor retention, but actually this project has managed to retain many great editors - Wesley being one somewhat recent example, despite as I think he'll agree with me, some ups and downs in the past.".


 * It would seem that the context of his comment to you would still apply even to this day. Cooper also pointed out to yourself that it was "obvious that you were struggling to follow what [he] and others were saying when we entered into technical details.", and he reminded you about making "attacks against [him] and this project".  Even in that conversation you blatantly accused an administrator of attacking you, when he clearly was not.  And not only that you later acknowledged that you purposely misinterpreted his and other's context, and that you also acknowledged you purposely cast "false accusations" without "checking what someone meant by their comment".  Need I say more...?  At this present time, it does feel as though you are repeating actions from months ago, which makes me wonder if once again they are deliberately being done, especially when you admitted to such back in February.   Wesley   Mᴥuse  18:43, 6 October 2013 (UTC)


 * For someone as that claim to doesn't want to converse anymore, it really seems to be out of his angst to yet again demonstrate the volumes of obsess to deflect own-behavior on others; That's also while talking about being more civil with another user, yet to divert the same malfunctions to other directions, as always. That story from February - yet another prime example of you inviting me to make proposals here, only to go few minutes afterwards to cast suspicious on another page, and highlighting your audacity by insisting and attacking me that you weren't talking about me (as if it matters anyway, the fact remains you spread unjustified negativity as I explained back then). Even after I apologized - so you let go already, you kept trying tackling me; And now you further using this story of all, to make yourself as a victim - which proves you don't learn. The other editor also understood how I felt and expressed some regret while you kept attacking, and need I remined that me and him also kept talking on email, were we both expressed further regrets, as I also wrote and thanked him on his talk page later. And also kept emailing on other stuff as we kept touch. The reason I offered you an apology was as I understood you had angst to justify yourself and as I didn't wanna keep fighting especially with him. And I already said I didn't believe you, on the 1981-ESC talk page discussion after you also jumped on me and others there. Thank you for this example.
 * And now you invite people to participate on an RFC, but then dismissed at first the inputs and agreements by the introduction of different summaries and consensus demands. There are so often times were it's sufficient for you to discuss with 2-5 other users to decide to change matters - with no sign to wait so much further as there are 70+ members. Therefore other editors natural fickle reactions towards your inconstant-wayward ongoing.
 * As for getting the grasp of policies, you have demonstrated very often that you didn’t follow them and that you often can’t handle people disagreeing and explaining you – as with the “location” section, “future-relative” info, confirmation-sources and lead-shaping, to name some areas where I myself discussed and explained some things very patiently and trying compromising between you and others as aforesaid, which you mostly finally agreed with – but yet threw snippets at me and others that tried to discuss with you even agreed and edit changes – also talking about your refusal to “drop the stick” as you advice others. I can go on with other places where you blatantly call others uncooperative, disruptive and so and so – some of them are also people that now you are friends with – so now you are on their talk pages to talk about others, under the claim that you only "seek advice", while telling others they are forum-shopping when they call other users to express and repeat their inputs here, in order to reach consensus. That quite sums you up. אומנות (talk) 23:59, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

It is high time that you dropped the stick and started to keep matters to the main topic of discussion, rather than make threats, personalised attacks, and insulting accusations. There is a difference between "friends", "acquaintances" and "colleagues". Friends you meet in real life, go down to the pub or whatever. Acquaintances are people you know but have not met in real life. And colleagues are people you work with. These people whom you refer to as "my friends", I have not met in real life, so they cannot be friends. However as I collaborate with the here at Wikipedia they are what is known as "colleagues". And most of whom I admire, trust, and value their knowledge with utmost dignity, and thus become known as "acquaintances" of the cyber-world. Surely you should even have understood that by now. And no, I did not attack you back in February, nor did CT Cooper - and even you accepted that in the end. You cannot start to deny now that you never said those things when anyone can see for themselves, it is there in black and white, in your own words. Now if you don't mind I am rather busy with some project work. Go find someone else to throw your insults and personal attacks in their face, as you are now starting to bore me. Wesley  Mᴥuse  01:03, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

So put these sign to yourself, realy :) I have to mention the irony, that I just told you how often you advice others to dropped the stick, yet you keep obsessing yourself as you do now, in your aim to yet again call "silence", and you keep wasting time. As explained to you, If you accuse me of something, which is definately connected to your wrongdoing - then I will definately defend myself and call you up on your behavior. And yes everybody can see black on white your temper and tactics on that old discussion as on this and others. If you reply by presenting a claim to bash me, I will explain and defend myself, unless I won't think it's something melicious enough. Stop contacting me, and I won't have something to reply to. You have other things to do? Go and do. אומנות (talk) 02:01, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

San Marino in the Eurovision Song Contest 2014
Is it still too early to create such an article? I thought about making it but the information announced so far is limited to the announcement of the artist. Pickette (talk) 19:38, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm 50/50 on this one. In my opinion I would say such articles should be created as soon as there is information regarding national selections.  However, others tend to say wait until there is a plethora of details, so that we avoid premature articles becoming victim to the deletionists, who are always so eager to place WP:PRODs on such "minimal" articles (which is a phrase I have seen deletionists use in the past) - although I would probably defend the article if a PROD did appear on it.  We know Valentina has been pre-selected for now, but that's about as much information that we know.  Would it be better to highlight this early information on San Marino in the Eurovision Song Contest for now, and then expand into its own annual article once we know more on the selection process?   Wesley  ☮  Mouse  19:56, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Colour codes for last placings
We could do with reviewing key-colour for last placings (red background) on the 'Country in Eurovision' articles only. As every will be aware, wikilinks are in blue text, and having that on red backgrounds causes chromostereopsis, which has been known to cause migraines and in some rare circumstances epileptic seizures. From a safety prospective, this needs to be reviewed urgently, so that we can make the relevant alterations with immediate effect. Wesley ☮  Mouse  17:17, 30 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Current method on 'Country' in the Eurovision Song Contest


 * Alternatives for last placings

Hm. I have two questions: 1) Is it really necessary for the last placer to be specially colored? And 2) I'm not very sure chromostereopsis on such a small scale would be too triggering, really? Isn't it flashing red-blue images that trigger them too and not still images? Mr. Gerbear (talk) 19:17, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I have no idea why last placing have been specially coloured, in my opinion what is so special about finishing last that it warrants a colour? But hey-ho, I'll go along with the majority if people want to cease using colour on last places.  And still images have been known to trigger seizures too, not just flashing images.  A friend of mine has had many a seizure in the past from still imaged chromostereopsis.   Wesley  ☮  Mouse  19:25, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, exactly. I suggest we do away with the color entirely. If not, No. 4 would be a good alternative. Thanks for the added info about these images. Now I know to be more careful with these in the future. Mr. Gerbear (talk) 20:29, 30 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Grins like a Cheshire cat - I'm with you on the abolishment of using colour to highlight last place. Wonder if others would be in agreement too?   Wesley  ☮  Mouse  21:09, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * In terms of Eurovision there are only two important colours, the qualifying colour and gold for first. Second, third and last really mean nothing.
 * {| style="border: 2px solid red;"


 * But also remember that the table borders can change colour.
 * } --  axg //  ✉  ]] ''' 21:37, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * It depends on the use. If it will be used in the year articles I still don't agree on putting colors (for 1st, 2nd, 3rd and last places). Just the qualifiers and the winner in the final should be colored. If it is for the countries' articles then it's okay. I think that the 6th color should be used for the last places.  Dimitris  ♪  (talk)  21:41, 30 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree with both AxG and Dimitris. Sorry I should have stipulated from the start that I was referring to 'Country' in Eurovision articles which seem to be using colours for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and last place.  The annual ESC articles should remain as they are with only colours to show qualifiers and the winner.  Although I have noticed other language wikis use a pastel-green for qualifiers rather than the colour we use.  Would green be a better option for us to adopt in these circumstances?   Wesley  ☮  Mouse  21:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I think the pastel green would be better, yes. As for the table border colors, I think it would look too different from Wikipedia style if that was implemented for last places in the Country articles. Mr. Gerbear (talk) 00:01, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see the point in changing the qualified colour, it's just a big editing change we don't need as it does not change the nature of the content, and also some use green and some use the same colour we do there's no standard. P.s. I'm a blue person myself.Face-tongue.svg --  axg //  ✉  ]] ''' 12:41, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As for "X Country in ESC", I support introducing colours for 1st, 2nd, 3rd and last places, as it highlights every country's success and failures in relation to the field of other songs - according to the focus of the article on a specific country's ESC histroy. As for the annual ESC articles I prefer only highlighting first place for the winner of X-year. For highlighting last place (on X-country article), I prefer option 6 and then option 4. My opinion is like Dimitris' opinion. Also, I like pastel green but I prefer light-golden-orange like colour. But also as axg mentioned, if there is already a majority of articles that use a certain colour for qualifiers and winner, and 2nd-3rd places (that don't have colours that annoy the eye as red-blue for the last place), than it's better to keep this standard colours and only replace the red-blue of the last place. אומנות (talk) 12:57, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not too keen on color-coding last places. Most of the tables (except for the scoreboards) are sortable, so the last place could be found relatively easy. I like the way it is currently set up (qualifiers and 1st). After all, the emphasis of the concert really is on who wins it all. The other finishing places aren't focused on. I think using as little colors as possible would keep the articles visually clean. Dfizzles (talk) 23:14, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Dfizzles, you have realised we're not discussing the main annual articles, but articles such as France in the Eurovision Song Contest, which do highlight last place.  Wesley  ☮  Mouse  23:20, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

While I like the red we use right now, I admit is quite hard on the eyes, and if there's any possibility that someone might suffer some damage from it, I'm all in favor of changing it ASAP. From the color proposals, I like number 4. I also thought about black, but I'm not sure how readable a wikilink would be over a black background. Not A Superhero (talk) 01:38, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I've added a black test to the proposals for comparison sake.  Wesley  ☮  Mouse  03:35, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, that's a big no from me. (But thanks for considering it anyway) So, I guess pink or pastel orange are our better options. Not A Superhero (talk) 03:46, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Upon reviewing everyone's views on this, it would appear that options 4 and 6 are both preferable. As option 4 is pink (a paler shade of red), would everyone be OK if we went ahead with that choice?  I've implemented option 4 onto Norway in the Eurovision Song Contest, to show how it would look.   Wesley  ☮  Mouse  15:37, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I actually like that a lot! It looks a lot more pleasant.  Mr. Gerbear | Talk 19:59, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I've been bold and rolled it out using AWB across all the articles. So I assume we're safe to say this topic is resolved!?  Thank you everyone who contributed.   Wesley  ☮  Mouse  20:00, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

A-class assessments
Unlike good articles and featured articles which have their own nominations board (WP:GAN and WP:FAR respectively), the A-class review does not. According to the information at WP:ACLASS there are two methods, "basic" and "formal":

For WikiProjects without a formal A-Class review process, the proposal to promote to A-Class should be made on the article's talk page. To be granted, the proposal should supported by two uninvolved editors, with no significant opposes. The review should also be noted on the project's discussion page.
 * Basic method

A more formal review may be useful for some WikiProjects, such as the method used successfully at the Military History project. The method is summarized below:
 * Formal WikiProject review


 * 1) Add   to the WikiProject banner at the top of the article's talk page, click on the "currently undergoing" link that appears then write up your nomination.
 * 2) Add your nomination (via transclusion) to the review section of the WikiProject.
 * 3) Others from the WikiProject review the article.
 * 4) A coordinator from the project closes the review, and (if successful) the article is tagged and listed as A-Class.

Based on the information above, as we do not have a formal A-class reviewing team then we're to go about the "basic method". However, as we're a reasonably large-ish project, I would like to invite members of the project to discuss whether we should form an A-class reviewing section, and thus we'd have be able to operate a "formal WikiProject reviewing team", similar to how WikiProject Military history have theirs set up? The project doesn't have any A-class articles at this present time, although we do have the classification on our assessment scale, and there are a few articles that could be potential A-class. Does anyone have any objections or comments to this proposal? Wesley  Mᴥuse  16:33, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Looking at an A-class assessment at Talk:Lockheed D-21, the classification would only be placed on our project banner, and other projects would remain at GA-class or B-class, until they decide to review for A-class themselves.  Wesley   Mᴥuse  16:37, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't understand what the difference between Good Article status and A-Class article status is? They seem very similar and I'm not sure what including an A-Class article evaluation would add to this project. Pickette (talk) 02:30, 5 October 2013 (UTC)


 * There is different criterion for all 3 quality classifications. GA's are as the label states, a good article.  FA's are articles which get shown on the main Wikipedia page as "featured" from time to time.  An A-class is an article that is better than GA, but falls short of fulfilling every criterion that is required for a featured article.  And after I wrote this, I later discovered that this project has its own A-class request page (WP:ESC/A).  When I spoke to User:Pyrotec who is experienced on assessments for GA, A, and FA, he said that if we were to improve the A-class system then "borrowing" the method at WP:MIL would make submitting requests and reviewing articles easier.   Wesley   Mᴥuse  02:38, 5 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I would support adding this if the benefit is improving articles further towards FA status. And I think perhaps it would be best to test this out with the basic method before establishing a review committee for the formal method. Pickette (talk) 02:58, 5 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Indeed, any article with A-class quality is basically one step away from being a Featured Article, and that in turn will provide information on how to better the article in order to reach FA, for those who are interested. However going down the "basic method" knowing now that this project already has a review page for A's WP:ESC/A, then the basic method is exempt and we're suppose to go down the "formal" route.  Its just a case of now trying to establish, do we keep the A-class request page at WP:ESC/A or move it to a page of its own, like how WP:MIL have with theirs.   Wesley   Mᴥuse  03:03, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll have a play around in my sandbox(es) over the next few days on a layout for the A-class side of things, using some inspirational ideas from WP:MIL. Will post them on here as and when I get chance. Wesley  Mᴥuse  06:51, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Extensive project maintenance exercise
This is a notice to all project members to inform you that I have started an extensive project maintenance exercise, something which I'm sure most of you will agree, is well-overdue. I shall be checking through everything and anything that comes under our project scope, including:
 * ABU Song Festivals
 * Eurovision Dance Contest
 * Eurovision Young Dancers
 * Eurovision Young Musicians
 * Eurovision Song Contest
 * Junior Eurovision Song Contest
 * Melodifestivaln
 * OGAE Contests

I'll be checking article talk pages and adding EurovisionNotice banner on that have not been added to our project, adding any navboxes that have been missed, Eurovision-stub to any that require it, and maintenance tagging on any that also require clean up. Once this task is complete, then our project will have a pin-point accurate account of every article under our scope, a 100% accurate statistical account of quality/importance scale assessment, and not only that we will also have a 100% accurate record of articles that require cleaning-up. I think it is time that this project got back on track, and for that to happen we need to know which areas need improving, and we won't know that until this task is complete. If anyone wants to assist me with this task, then feel free as it will probably take me days, weeks, maybe even a couple of months to complete single-handedly. Thank you, Wesley   Mᴥuse  01:55, 6 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Update - According to the assessment records, we have 4906 articles with a WikiProject Eurovision banner and assessed (although I have done more which are not showing on the stats yet, which takes the total to 4990). The stats also show there is a total of over 21,000 that have Category:WikiProject Eurovision attached to them, which means there is an approx total of 16,000 that do not have WikiProject Eurovision banner on them.  I've managed to get through ESC 1956 - 1958, plus all of the ABU and some JESC articles.  I'll keep on with this, although if anyone wishes to lend a hand then it would be appreciated.  Also as some of you will have now noticed, I've modernised the project's look and navigational features, to provide a more simplistic approach for everyone.


 * The old "blue" look has been revamped to a "beige" colour. Blue is psychologically known to be chilling and depressing, while beige is a neutral colour and known to be more relaxing.  Also there's a new navigational tab bar at the top of every page.  This enables members to skip from one section to another with much simplicity, and without having to keep going back to the main page in order to get to other areas of the project such as "article alerts; list of members; newsletter department; and more" - you can now navigate to these areas easier no matter which area of the project you are viewing.  I'd love to know the views of members on this, and to see if the improvements have made navigating around the project a lot easier.   Wesley   Mᴥuse  16:38, 7 October 2013 (UTC)