Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Indian military history task force

Moving Rajindar Singh to Rajendra Singh
The page created for Rajindar Singh is actually for Rajendra Singh. I have moved the page and renamed it accordingly. Sudhanshu Nimbalkar, Please be careful when we create new pages. This is important that we fact check correctly before we write any information. -- Adamgerber80 —Preceding undated comment added 14:35, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Other tasks
@ User:Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, User:Adamgerber80, User:Mahensingha, User:AshLin, User:Sudhanshu Nimbalkar Sorry if I am pinging all members of this group but tell me dont we work here for articles that will bring pride to India or do we work for articles only on army and stuff. If latter is true then lets do this article personally. This article which is very imp to India is not so good in the way its written. THE ARTICLE IS State Emblem of India This article contains data from Symbols of States of India which too requires cleanup and is already under process by me. Cant we do it! - pls ping me VarunFEB2003 (talk) 06:18, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
 * First of all thanks for your participation and attitude. Apart from the question you have asked there are many things you need to get know first. You didn't ping any of us. You the symbol "at rate of - @" will not ping us to this conversation. You have just wiki-linked our user pages. We'll not know that you have started a discussion, to ping any user you want use the Template:Ping. The template is of the syntax ' '. Replace the example user name with the username you want and by doing so, a notification will be sent to user and he/she'll have a chance to participate in the respective discussion. And another important thing is that you must not use a sub-page template of your user page to sign anything. You must use the four tildes ( ~ ) to sign anything. And now coming to the question you've asked, yes, it is important to deal with the articles you have mentioned but it is not the task of this group. This group is purely dedicated and exclusively created, to create, develop/improve the articles related to the Indian Armed Forces only. And you must not take the article personally. your concern with articles related to India having top-importance may discussed on the talk page of Wiki-project India (Project page:WP:IND Talk page:Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics). Put '  ' on you talk page for any kinds of help and queries.  KC Velaga  ☚╣✉╠☛  11:32, 24 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Ok Kc lets leave it here only ill work on them personalyy i know the ping thing but for some reason @ sign didnt work it works too i have tried. and personally here meant that we work on it not as part of the group but seperately as we work for other articles. You do not wish to do it no problem. and if u could pls be a bit polite - VarunFEB2003 (talk) 17:29, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by being polite? I was so polite, I've just told what we are doing and what is the objective of the group that's it. I too want to improve the articles you've mentioned, but I extensively edit military related articles as I'm interested and have knowledge about them. As I have told before, you could find a editors in those topics on WP:IND. I again insist you to use the four tildes ' (~) ' instead of user template ' '. And you must address the user by their complete username. And it would be good if you don't use the language that is used the social media. I can see that you're using the words - u, pls etc instead of you, please. Please don't use such language as it cannot be understood by all the editors.  KC Velaga  ☚╣✉╠☛  00:40, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

New Articles
Can you give me the sources (if any) of the articles that need to be created. Ill create them. Resigning this post to call in Krishna Chaitanya Velaga Thanks --VarunFEB2003 (talk) 14:20, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Here are the references that help you create articles. I will get to you after I find the others.


 * Army Education Corps (India)||      7
 * Indian Army Remount and Veterinary Corps||
 * Military Farms Service (India)||
 * Indian Army Pioneer Corps||
 * }
 * These are the basic sources to create, how you may find more on a search. Please add the article to the progess made section after you've created them. Remember, not just creation is important but the quality matters as you know it. Thank you for your contributions. Regards,  KC Velaga  ✉  14:12, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Indian Army Pioneer Corps||
 * }
 * These are the basic sources to create, how you may find more on a search. Please add the article to the progess made section after you've created them. Remember, not just creation is important but the quality matters as you know it. Thank you for your contributions. Regards,  KC Velaga  ✉  14:12, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * These are the basic sources to create, how you may find more on a search. Please add the article to the progess made section after you've created them. Remember, not just creation is important but the quality matters as you know it. Thank you for your contributions. Regards,  KC Velaga  ✉  14:12, 4 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks  Varun FEB2003   I am Online 14:15, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * What about the status? Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk &bull;&#32;mail) 11:07, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

I am going on a wiki break will show you my progress once back in October Varun FEB2003    14:28, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you, just wanted to know. Hoping to see you back as soon as possible. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk &bull;&#32;mail) 00:38, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Creativity
Hi, I had a thought of that if it gets free from Incubator we'll need some more things. So I thought of creating userboxes, topicons and our official barnstar. What should be our official image we should be using for these purposes. Moreover should we not have a our projects portal if we become a WikiProject. Keeping these things in mind I thought i'll create them (in my sandbox) after taking review and suggestions. I need some suggestions and the image to be our official logo (or just image). Thanks VarunFEB2003 (talk) 14:20, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for for efforts, I am very grateful for that. Please continue your efforts in creating the userboxes, top icons you have and all the stuff. I'll have a look and suggest you any improvements after. And for the portal, there is no need of portal, all the that we need is get to graduate from the incubator and get recognized as a task force. Regards, KC Velaga  ☚╣✉╠☛  14:38, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I needed the pic to be our official picture before I create all the stuff. And maybe we can create a portal later once we graduate. Thanks a lot. &mdash;  Varun FEB2003      I am Busy    16:45, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I will get back to you with a pic within a day or two. Regards, KC Velaga  ☚╣✉╠☛  23:57, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks.  Varun FEB2003   I am Online 06:43, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * If you check these - User:VarunFEB2003/Template:Indian Military Topicon, User:VarunFEB2003/Template:Indian Military UBX1, User:VarunFEB2003/Template:Indian Military UBX2, User:VarunFEB2003/Template:Indian Military Barnstar I have created these templates with sample pics which will be changed. (The barnstar has parameters) Please suggest improvements.  Varun FEB2003   I am Online 08:42, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi, Did you get the pic? And I love creating templates, can you tell me the names of templates we still need to create and what material they'll contain. It can be added to the worklist if we want. Thanks  Varun FEB2003   I am Online 13:33, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * This image would fine for our group. Regards,  KC Velaga  ✉  13:56, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll see thanks  Varun FEB2003    14:29, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Access to Indian Army MilHist resources
I have access to Military History resources, let me know specific queries or needs! :D AshLin (talk) 12:16, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
 * That's great, please add them to resources section on the project page. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk &bull;&#32;mail) 00:32, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I mean't physical resources such as in GLAMs!
 * Thanks for that. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk &bull;&#32;mail) 13:06, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
 * As you mentioned before that you have access to some Indian MilHis sources. I need some help now. I am in a process of making the Param Vir Chakra recipients to GA status and eventually Param Vir Chakra to good topic status. I have expanded and nominated Rama Raghoba Rane for GAN. But in the review I was asked to add more information. But I couldn't manage to get them. However, I am in the process of retrieving the information, I just thought if you do some help regarding this. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk &bull;&#32;mail) 13:03, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Noted, will work on this. AshLin (talk) 06:11, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Please clarify
Under the 'Open tasks', 'Requested articles' section - Indian Army Judge Advocate General's Department is requested. But a similar page already exists Judge Advocate General (India). Please clarify this request. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 15:35, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
 * This has now been removed. You can add new articles to the requested article section if you wish. Thanks. Adamgerber80 (talk) 22:20, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 00:53, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Please clarify (2)
I created the page National Police Memorial India just now. Will this page fall under this task force? Thank you. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 11:44, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
 * In my opinion it does since the memorial is also about Central Armed Police Forces which comes under this task-force. I am happy to discuss if someone has a different view. Also, I think the article should be renamed to National Police Memorial (India) and a disambiguation page created for National Police Memorial with links to National Police Memorial (Australia) and National Police Memorial (United Kingdom). Adamgerber80 (talk) 22:24, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I would say the same too, that National Police Memorial (India) does fall under this task-force. As you said because of CRPF, but other reasons too such as that the memorial and museum also cover intelligence agencies in India such as Research and Analysis Wing which is mentioned in articles such as the Kargil War and Bangladesh Liberation War. But since I asked this question, I did see a slippery slope in placing National Police Memorial (India) article under a "Military" task force, hence wanted to see what others thought first. Will see what reasoning SshibumXZ gives for saying no. Thanks. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 00:52, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * , nope. Regards, SshibumXZ (talk · contribs). 00:42, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
 * , Please could you give reason/s why you answered no this. Thanks. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 00:52, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * , nevermind, I agree with and  in their reasoning that as Central Armed Police Forces come under the ambit of Milhist, the National Police Memorial (India) should too. My original reasoning would have that as the memorial concerns itself with police forces and topics related to it. Also, I refactored the section so as to make it archiving-friendly. Regards, SshibumXZ (talk · contribs). 07:14, 24 October 2018 (UTC); edited 07:17, 24 October 2018 (UTC).
 * I would say that since the CRPF is clearly paramilitary, is organised into battalions, and engages in COIN ops, and part of the memorial is dedicated to the CRPF, the memorial falls under Milhist. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:20, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Integrated Defence Staff
Anyone interested in collaborating with me on creating an article on the Integrated Defence Staff? The [very] rough draft is located at User:SshibumXZ/sandbox/Integrated Defence Staff (in line with User:SshibumXZ/sandbox/Government of NCT of Delhi v. Union of India et al.) Any and all help will be greatly appreciated. Regards, SshibumXZ (talk · contribs). 07:51, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi. I have made a few additions to the article. I hope they are ok. The content I have added of course needs sorting out and paraphrasing at places, and needs more cites, but I hope the few changes I have made have helped a little. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 19:02, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * , thanks for the help; much appreciated! Regards, SshibumXZ (talk · contribs). 19:11, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Please clarify. Does Pellet gun usage in Jammu and Kashmir fall under this task force?
I created the page Pellet gun usage in Jammu and Kashmir just now. Does this page fall under this task force? Thank you. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 09:50, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Award citation in article
Hi all, a DYK reviewer suggested to copy edit the award citation and mention it in own words. I think the citation should remain like a quote. What is the accepted precedent here. Refer Template:Did you know nominations/Nazir Ahmad Wani -- D Big X ray ᗙ  18:02, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
 * All Param Veer Chakra's have the award citation. But Nazir Ahmad Wani is an Ashoka Chakra winner. In that case I went through a couple of article and they do not have the full cite. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 17:16, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Apology for pinging you but this talk page is dead, and appears like no one is checking it. I would like to hear your thoughts. I checked the BIO of recipients of the highest gallantary award winners from US and it appears as though all of them   have the award citation section that quotes the full citation. I would like to keep the citation on Wani's page. Please let me know your thoughts. -- D Big X ray ᗙ  17:20, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * DiplomatTesterMan Ashok Chakra is the highest peacetime gallantry award of India. It is of same value as PVC. D Big X ray ᗙ  17:20, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the message on my talk page, and also making this page active by starting this discussion here. Yes, it should watched. Coming to the acutal question, it is perfectly fine to mention the full citation as a quote. When there is an official press release or a government website mentioning the statement as the official award citation, we can keep it. I did the same for several GAs of PVC recipients. For instance, Somnath Sharma and Piru Singh. KCVelaga (talk) 17:34, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * 1. As you pointed out DBigXray... I went through some Medal of Honor recipients in the article List of post-Vietnam War Medal of Honor recipients (Kyle Carpenter, Ty Carter etc, yes they have long multiple line citations directly quoting the official citations. So in terms of a standardization across Wikipedia for the highest awards in a country given to military personnel, citations themselves shouldn't be a problem.
 * 2. Do Ashok Chakra citations deserve as much room as Param Veer Chakra citations, yes.
 * 3. Usually citations are not too long. That is, they are not multiple pages in length. So length persay is not an issue considering the importance of what the citation is conveying.
 * 4. MOS:QUOTE isn't a problem too here since - It is generally recommended... Consider paraphrasing quotations into plain and concise text when appropriate ... Phrases like: generally recommended, Consider and when appropriate are being used. Also MOS:QUOTE deals with copyright protected content - "Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea. While quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Using too many quotes is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style and may be a copyright infringement." Is this copyright protected and to what extent... (next point)
 * 5. This leave the issue of copyright itself. Param Veer and Ashok Chakra citations are officially chronicled in the Gazette of India (and a register) as per the official rules and regulations for gallantry awards in India. (Ministry of Defence LINK). Since the "register" is not accessible that leaves the Gazette. So all that is left to be seen is under what under what copyright laws does the Gazette of India function. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 18:00, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * 6. But if the citation has been quoted from a source other than the Gazette itself, under what copyright does that source function and does their copyright have any jurisdiction over the citation itself (i doubt it). DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 18:02, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Gazette is mirrored by several other docs, they are all open license. -- D Big X ray ᗙ  18:13, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * DiplomatTesterMan and KCVelaga Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts on this, I will ask the reviewer if he can reconsider his assessment, based on the accepted precedents on Gallantary award winner BIOs. -- D Big X ray ᗙ  18:13, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The official website of the Gazette of India says:
 * 1. Gazette of India Notifications are published by Department of Publication and are printed by the Government of India Printing Presses regularly. This is an authorized legal document of Government of India. All parts, section and Sub-section of Gazette of India are uploaded in the egazette website by the concerned Government of India Printing Presses which can be accessed free of cost by the general public being available in the public domain.
 * 2.Controller of publication is the authorized publisher, custodian and seller of Government of India Publications and periodicals including Gazette of India and Delhi Gazette with its copy right. It is quality product and economically priced. It undertakes storage, sale and distribution of all saleable publications brought out by various Ministries/Departments. Any infringement of the Indian Copyright Act is a legal offence. Dispute in Book trade, if any, will be settled within the Jurisdiction of Delhi.
 * Which open license are you talking about? DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 18:22, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Note that point 2 is just for publication copyright where the matter being sold, as far as the wordings go. Authorized is the keyword. We are accessing the information the publisher, Controller of publication, publishes as the Gazette, which in itself comes under GODL once published.  DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 18:25, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Government Open Data License see National_Data_Sharing_and_Accessibility_Policy_–_Government_of_India-- D Big X ray ᗙ  18:27, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Ok. As far as I can see just now this should cover it from all angles. ✅ DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 18:32, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Chief of Defence Staff (India)
Chief of Defence Staff (India) is a new article which could do with a bit of expanding, at least the history part for now. All suggestions and collaborations and help will be greatly appreciated.DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 04:41, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Pinging... I just wanted to bring your attention to this article. Any suggestions related to it? Help with expansion? It is currently DYK material too...thanks!DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 04:48, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
 * DTM, this would need expansion so as to have a minimum of 1500KB of prose. I am thinking about "DYK that, India pondered for XX years before making the post of Chief of Defence Staff (India)."-- D Big X ray ᗙ  04:51, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
 * , I don't know; "pondered" sounds, informal to me. What say you? Regards, SshibumXZ (talk · contribs). 19:58, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, whatever the DYK, the article first needs to be expanded as pointed out :D DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 02:22, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * This is the citation for your DYK suggestion - 20 years - India to finally get chief of defence staff, 20 yrs after it was mooted DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 02:30, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * But then this cite says General K V Krishna Rao advocated creation of the post of Chief of Defence Staff in June 1982. JSTOR. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 02:56, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * , I would love to help with the article's expansion; I won't give my word because I have been rather busy, but, watch this space. Also, shouldn't the page's title be Chief of the Defence Staff (India), on the lines of Chief of the Army Staff (India), Chief of the Air Staff (India), and Chief of the Naval Staff (India)? Regards, SshibumXZ (talk · contribs). 19:57, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Pakistan not declaring its martyrs/casualty
I think we all are aware of the issue of "Pakistan not declaring its martyrs/casualty" but I found a good article on this today. This invariably leads to contradictory figures in the infobox sections and other places. -- D Big X ray ᗙ  10:54, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Pinging...User:Kautilya3, DiplomatTesterMan,, , I just wanted to bring your attention to this article.-- D Big X ray ᗙ  10:56, 4 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This of course makes the figures in our articles suspicious. But I am not sure how we can let the readers know (footnote?), but that would also require a larger discussion, more sources, and which articles -- and a lot of other stuff. Happy to hear more thoughts on this. Also pinging for attention. KCVelaga (talk) 04:52, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I suggest a referenced footnote (not inline citation) to the Pakistani casualties very neutrally worded. AshLin (talk) 05:43, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * An Indian magazine article claiming to find the truth about Pakistani casualties, especially a magazine that has had several articles on how India carried out an accurate surgical strike in Balakot, Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, in February 2019, is hardly credible. We will need to cite to third-party (i.e. neither an Indian nor a Pakistani) internationally recognized newspapers, just as the lead in 2019 Balakot airstrike does.  (Pinging )  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  23:12, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I would agree we need third party sources, but that equally applies to Pakistani sources.Slatersteven (talk) 10:20, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I meant this about both country-sources. My point is that if you are going to introduce a statement about official Pakistani figures, which appear inaccurate or POV, it doesn't really help if you are using an Indian source to point that out.  peacemaker67's caution about using third-party sources remains relevant here.  In my view, it is better to not have any casualty figures, if third-party sources do not exist  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  12:50, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

India designates terrorists

 * https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/us-backs-india-naming-terrorists/article29349270.ece

Multiple articles would need to be updated with this new information. adding it here to track the progress. -- D Big X ray ᗙ  06:38, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I wonder how long these related Supreme Court issues will play out - "SC notice to Centre on anti-terror UAPA law after PIL says it is against right to dissent".... India Today DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 12:24, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Special Group

 * Can you share the link of the url you found this image above ? thanks. -- D Big X ray ᗙ  07:59, 24 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Here. Also note that this image comes from a highly credible source: Sandeep Unnithan. &#8212;&#x202F; Vaibhavafro &#x202F;&#128172; 08:41, 24 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks for sharing. I wasn't aware of this, so I am glad that I know about it. I was under the impression that SFF were the SF group involved in Bluestar. but now this makes more sense. -- D Big X ray ᗙ  08:59, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

I just want to tell a few more things since you've shown interest. That Sandeep Unnithan article clearly mentions The Mavericks to be (he distinguishes SFF from SG). What this means is that these people on Quora are clearly Bullsh*tt*ng. What happens next is that people get confused between SFF and SG and make unwanted ad hoc edits to Wikipedia. We need to keep an eye on this (especially since I am about leave for a Wikibreak, you will have to help).

Furthermore, after the reading and comparing all WP:RS on this topic with all WP:Not Rs, I have come to the following conclusion: SG was initially formed as 4 Vikas of the Special Frontier Force, but later became a separate unit. Afterall, what else can explain the transition to this badge from this? &#8212;&#x202F; Vaibhavafro &#x202F;&#128172; 10:11, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I will keep an eye. it will be helpful if you also copy paste this on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Indian military history task force to attract more eyes.-- D Big X ray ᗙ  10:56, 24 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Ok. I am posting all this there. &#8212;&#x202F; Vaibhavafro &#x202F;&#128172; 14:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Note: The above was copy-pasted from my talk page as per suggestion by User:DBigXray. &#8212;&#x202F; Vaibhavafro &#x202F;&#128172; 18:55, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Thiyyar regiment of british indian army
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:The_Thiyyar_Regiment_of_British_Indian_Army

Please review this article as soom as possible Sitush Thushmington (talk) 08:21, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

4th battle of Panipat?
There is no historic proof of this nor do the sources in this articles themselves ever site that something called Fourth Battle of Panipat ever occurred. They don't describe a full fledge battle. Just a mere conflict of interest, not even a battle. What has come now is anyone can claim something has occured and use selective lines from some source to claim that something that never happened has actually occured? This is totally historically inaccurate and fails WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:RS, WP:Notable and should be deleted. The term Fourth Battle of Panipat isn't used in any WP:RS or historical context either but a 2023 joinee (no PA just saying) User:Ronnie Macroni is making up fictional battles related to India like this all across Wikipedia and they don't meet the basic requirements of being encyclopedic historic articles and all meets criteria for deletion. Please prevent fictional battle from becoming Wikipedia articles, this is Wikipedia not wikia/fandom also Fourth Battle of Panipat lacks any credibility unlike the First Battle of Panipat, 2nd and 3rd ones and should be deleted! Dilbaggg (talk) 05:38, 28 April 2023 (UTC)