Talk:Larry Bird/Archive 1

Early discussions

Sorry, but I simply will not allow John Stockton and Larry Bird to be mentioned in the same sentence as great passers of the 80s era. That's like citing the Lambourgini and the Yugo as the classic cars of that time. My goodness. 10/20/05

It's very difficult to compare Stockton and Bird in terms of passing. Stockton's role obviously was more geared towards racking up assists. Bird is 39th all-time in assists per game. There are only about five other players in the top 100 who are within three inches of his height and they all rank below him (Grant Hill is closest at 59th, 5.6 apg). 10/13/06

I revamped this article considerably, to summarize Bird's accomplishments stage by stage (early life, college, early pro years, etc) and to provide more detail (stats, awards, specific game performances). I don't like rewriting someone else's work and usually won't, but as a lifelong Bird and Celtics fan, I had to do it. The previous article was atrocious in its lack of attention to detail (no stats? an exhaustive list of Bird's nicknames, but no descriptions of game performances, such as the Nique-Bird fourth quarter shootout???) and bizarre topics (e.g., the fact that Bird's father "committed suicide with a shotgun"--does it really matter how he did it? And who cares about the Larry Bird exception, which I think was rendered obsolete by the 1999 collective bargaining agreement?). 6/26/05

Actually, the Larry Bird Exception has been incorporated in each of the collective bargaining agreements and expanded to include not only the "Bird Exception," (which is referred to in the 2005 CBA as a "Qualifying Free Agent") but the "Early Bird Exception" (codified as "Non-Qualifying Free Agent"). [1] It is a rather important part of the NBA's free agent system and the terms "Bird" and "Non-Bird" are still very much in common usage when describing these two categories of free agents. [2] How relevant it is to Larry Bird, the player, is debatable though I believe that it marked a paradigmatic change in the way the business of sport was conducted (moving back toward a system which allowed, if not incentized, teams to keep hometown stars and therefore, not alienate fans). 7/13/06

Could somebody put more in about Bird's career? What position did he usually play? What distinctive gifts did he bring to the position (as I recall, not much athletic ability but a freakishly good 3-point shot). --Robert Merkel

"Not much athletic ability" is only accurate if you accept foot speed as the only athletic ability. Bird was extremely strong, even for such a large man and he was capable of moving other players, even very big players, out of position. Also, he had especially strong hands. When you combine these things with his ruthless pursuit of a rebound, these athletic abilities became extremely important. While he wasn't fast, his feet were quick, which gave him a good first step. He also had quick hands and was able to make many steals. He was certainly a below-average jumper for an NBA forward. However, he was extremely agile and could get his body into the right space to get the ball or put it into the basket. This made his jumping more effective. His endurance, which is also an important athletic ability, was exemplary until his back injuries made him a much lesser player in many respects. He had excellent eyesight, which contributed to his shooting and to his exceptional passing. It is very easy to overlook Bird's physical advantages because the cliche is that he was average physically but outworked and out-thought his opponents but that cliche is unfair to his opponents and to the memory of Bird's game. But the main asset he had was that he was totally ruthless. Dominique Wilkins said that looking into Larry Birds eyes was staring into the eyes of an assassin. Will in New Haven

---

With all the great European and other "Caucasian" international players in the NBA today, isn't it a bit odd to say he was the "greatest Caucasian player". It may be true, but it sounds a bit dated (1980's early 1990's when the NBA was over 90% black, now it's less so, and people really thought white people might not be able to compete in the sport for some reason).

Then again, we see so often "best African American ____ " or " best woman ______ " that when the roles are fairly reversed they strike us as odd.

The Bird Exception is still a part of the CBA and is an important element in his legacy. Please, everyone, stop using the word "caucasian." Its scientific aura is bogus; it means nothing more than "white."

In fact, its bogus in this context for a totally different reason - the majority of caucasians are not "white".WilyD 14:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Nickname

Didn't he have the nickname "The Hick From French Lick"? —preceding unsigned comment by 203.26.206.129 (talk • contribs) 18:28, November 22, 2005

It was a self-deprecating name that he called himself--Rogerd 05:50, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Ummmmmmm, i don't know anything about larry bird. do you?

All star every season?

The statement that Larry Bird was an Eastern Conference All Star during each of his 12 NBA seasons is incorrect. He was not an All Star in 1989, when he was injured for the majority of the season. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.251.205.135 (talk) 01:05, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

     yes he was an all-star his twleve seasons, 1980-88, 1990-92.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.87.205.236 (talk) 06:25, 2 October 2008 (UTC) 

Racial Implications of Celtics-Lakers Rivalry

The section on the Celtics-Lakers rivalry is accurate and informative, but it avoids (either intentionally or otherwise) a major focal point thereof. One of the biggest reasons--if not the biggest reason--the country was so fascinated by the rivalry was the racial implications it held. Yes, there were African-American players on the Celtics and Caucasian players on the Lakers, but the most visible participants were White Celtics (Bird, McHale, Walton) and Black Lakers (Johnson, Abdul-Jabbar, Worthy) and that's why so many Americans held stock in the games between the two teams.

Yes, I know the article mentions further down that Bird was a Caucasian in a predominantly African-American league, but that's woefully inadequate. Someone needs to talk about the racial implications of the Lakers-Celtics battle in the appropriate section. I'd do it myself, but this is a very touchy subject that requires a certain diplomatic aptitude I don't possess. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.161.23.60 (talk • contribs) 19:05, November 26, 2005.

I'm not sure how relevant that really is though. There were never any overt racial issues and the Lakers had a massive following from an almost overwhelmingly white fan-base. Boston was coached by a black man who happened to have a white superstar. Johnson and Bird became close friends so I'm just not sure that it is there. Why create something that is based solely on conjecture? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lochdale (talk • contribs) 15:41, December 15, 2005.

I'll tackle the racial implications. Red Auerbach was once asked why he didn't draft Magic Johnson, and was asked if he deliberately drafted "the white guy". Auerbach said that his job was to draft someone that the people of boston would pay see. Boston has a REPUTATION for being racist. (please do NOT flame for this. It's my opinion of how the country views my city. That's all). Anyway Red is a businessman and all things being equal, you have to see his point. (Even if he is selling his product to a bigoted community).

So they drafted Len Bias in '85 for what reason? Last time I checked, Bias was black as was Dennis Johnson and Robert Parish. Further, any chance of a cite for the Auerbach quote or are we just to take you are your world?

Lochdale

What these two teams represented racially is cleverly used in the film "American History X". A white, neo-nazi prison inmate is arguing why the celtics are so much better than the lakers with the Black inmate who of course favors the Lakers. It was also used in the Spike Lee's "Do the right thing". P.S. Happy MLK day to all.  ::Gibbonsk@gmail.com

Regarding the claim that Red Auerbach didn't draft Magic Johnson essentially because the people of Boston preferred white players to black players: Ummm, Larry Bird was drafted 6th by Auerbach in the year before Magic Johnson entered the NBA draft early. That was quite some racial foresight on Auerbach's part, wouldn't you say? (Douglas J. Bender [Elkhart, IN]) douglasjbender@hotmail.com

Come on now. You really believe that the country's fascination with Lakers-Celtics was largely racially motivated? Yes, Boston has a terrible history of racism towards its black athletes, and yes, there were fans who followed Bird and the Celtics because they were pulling for the white guys, but to say that race had a significant thing to do with fan interest at the time is ridiculous. I suppose Bird and Magic elevated the NBA to "America's game" for this reason, in your opinion?

When the NBA talks about the Bird/Magic rivalry, it says that the rivalry was everything: West vs East, Black vs White, showtime vs Blue-collar, easy-going vs trash-talker...race was in there, but so was everything else. People identified with the white, country, blue-collar trash-talker as much as they did the big-city, flashy black guy with the big smile. That article is somewhere in the NBA.com archives, I'll look it up later. My personal opinion though is just noting that race is one of the reasons for the rivalry is good enough - don't make it a big deal. Billybobjoe786 (talk) 11:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Greatest white athlete?

With all due respect, the assertion that Larry Bird may well be the greatest white athlete of all time is a view shared by a large portion of the populous. If you can think of a more accomplished white athlete, in any field, then I would be more than happy to humor you. If, in the meantime, as a compromise, you would be willing to allow me to post that he is, at the very least, the greatest white athlete the NBA has ever known, I would take no issue. Do you mean to suggest that, since Larry Bird happened to be white, his achievements in the sport are any less significant? To me, that discrimination is the very manifestation of what Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. fought so hard to destroy. (unsigned comment by User:68.60.162.97)

If anything someone could make an inherently POV assertion that Larry Bird is the greatest white athlete in the NBA, but to ever try to calculate the greatest athlete in hundreds of sports whose skin was white is fruitless. Are there any instances in Wikipedia of an athlete being called the greatest black athlete? BabuBhatt 07:42, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, it's easy to login in as an editor and it makes it easier for editors to communicate with each other.

I'm moving the discussion over to Larry Bird talk page. BabuBhatt 07:48, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

"If you can think of a more accomplished white athlete, in any field, then I would be more than happy to humor you."

Easy.

Don Bradman

Diego Maradona

Wayne Gretsky

(These three are so far ahead it's embarrassing).

Jack Nicklaus

Babe Ruth

Stanley Matthews

George Best

Michael Schumacher

Johann Cruyff

Lev Yashin

Shane Warne

Pete Sampras

Rod Laver

Larry Bird probably makes it into the top 100 greatest white athletes of all time, but no more.

Well, that discussion aside, I guess I'd like thoughts on whether a subjective statement like that belongs in an article at all. I think not. BabuBhatt 07:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Add Lance Armstrong to that list.

Pardon me, there is a guy named MIKAN here who would like to speak with you David.snipes (talk) 23:35, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Not sure the reasoning behind separating the race but going down that road, there were many great athletes from all sports. Some were named above but there were many others including Cousy, Orr, Pete Webber, Greg Norman, Willie Mosconi, Minnesota Fats, Luther Lassiter, Joe Montana, Ted Williams. We could argue this all day. As great as Bird was, his biggest issue was his body. He didn't have a perfect body for basketball. If you review the tapes of when Larry was on his game in his prime and without injury, he was absolutely the greatest basketball player of all time. He didn't specialize in 1 particualr area. He groomed all areas...and he excelled in all areas. Most ball players are good or excellant in 1 or 2 areas, but was very good in all areas and he turn it up and get it done when the game was on the line and the Celts were down by a few points. Larry Bird was king of winning the games by last second buzzer beaters. I remember being at a Garden game when the oposing team had the ball with seconds left on the clock. People were rushing out the door but I paid $50 from a scalper and I was staying. All of a sudden the other team tosses the ball out and the Celts have the ball with 2 seconds remaining. Everyone in the stadium started sitting back down as they knew, as well as everyone on the oposing team knew it was going to Bird. It went to him and he did it in the face of 2 defenders from 3-Point range and won the game. As great as Jordan or Russell were (and they were superb)they just were not as well versed in all aspects of the game as Bird was. He put his body on the line and would dive after loose balls each and every night and he paid the price for doing that. But that is the only way he knew how to play...100% all out. And if he failed during a game, he beat himself up and would stay after games and work on aspects of his game long after everyone else left. You dont hear or see that - thats greatness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.73.77.6 (talk) 16:24, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

African American Lineage?

isn't it true Larry Bird has common ancestors with Bill Russell? i remember reading that somewhere, can anyone confirm this? --me, you 00:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Bio

The bio of Bird on this page basically stops after his first few seasons. I added headings for the second two stages of his career. Plan to fill in text as soon as I have some time this coming week. If others want to help, please do. --Mackabean 05:14, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

It was there, somebody vandalized it recently, deleting all the content and it slipped through the cracks and I reverted it. Luckily I remembered seeing it there in the past. Quadzilla99 14:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Legacy

The information that was in the legacy section (statistics, notes on trash talking) seemed like it was way more appropriate for the player profile section. So I moved it. I do think there are interesting things that could be said about Bird's legacy with regards to race, the popularity of the NBA, and even the way the game of basketball is played. But I don't think the info in there before really spoke to those larger issues. If I have time this week or next, I will try to put some stuff up there about legacy. But if others have ideas, please feel free to add them. --Mackabean 15:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Recent Vandalism

There seems to be a lot of vandalism on this page recently from 204.184.61.253, might want to keep an eye out for that. (RidleyDragon 21:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC))

Memorable moments

About the game on March 31, 1991 wikipedia says: Bird almost won the game for his team at the end of regulation when his 30-foot 3-point shot just missed after getting a high bounce on top of the rim. It was a long time ago however I remember Bird scored 3 point in last few seconds of the regulation time and sent the game into overtime. Possible I am misleading facts. Article says something like this about the game in next year against Portland Trail Blazers but I am nearly sure that the opponents were Chicago Bulls. Is anyone able to verify this? kuszi 21:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC).

Regarding the March 15 game in 1992, the opponents were the Trailblazers: see [3] Myasuda 02:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Dates, opponents and results are ok, I am not sure about the additional description. kuszi 08:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC).

Trivia Tag

This page has a trivia section, and I will delete it soon, so I suggest that relevant information be included in the article. Black Harry (Highlights|Contribs) 19:52, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Don Mattingly

Larry Bird is not married to Don Mattingly's sister. Mattingly does not have a sister. It is true that Larry Bird married a woman who's last name was Mattingly and she was from Indiana like Mattingly, but they were married in 1989. The referenced article from 1991 (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE4D71730F93BA35757C0A967958260&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/B/Bird,%20Larry) clearly shows that Larry and Don did not even MEET until 1991. Larry and Dinah were married in 1989. Don't you think that Don would have attended his own sister's wedding??? Donaldd23 —Preceding comment was added at 00:49, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Celtics assessment

Should it really be top? Shouldn't it be high? Basketball110 _{what famous people say} ♣ 03:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Top it is. Basketball110 _{what famous people say} ♣ 20:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

was larry bird left handed

was larry bird left handed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.103.239.52 (talk) 02:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Can't link page to Bird's autobiography article

Help! I can't link this article to the article I have created about his autobiography: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive:_The_Story_of_My_Life_(Larry_Bird_book), and neither can I link Danny Ainge's article to the article I have created. I have been successful in showing it as an existing article on Bill Fitch's page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Fitch). Somebody please amend this so that it is reflected correctly. I can't find a way...Mus1978 (talk) 11:58, 5 January 2009 (UTC)MUS

Gia Veltre

The sweetest little girlfriend in the world —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.114.128.57 (talk) 18:22, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

20,10,5 (Points, Rebounds, Assists)

In addition to being the only 20,10,5 player, Larry Bird is also the only player in the top 50 all time for points per game, rebounds per game, and assists per game. Since he is in the top 50 for steals as well, he is consequently the only player in the top 50 for all 4 categories. I believe speaking of the top 50 gives a greater perspective than just stating the 20,10,5 feat. The data can be checked on BasketballReference.com. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcherman2 (talk • contribs) 21:20, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Player Profile

Is it just me, or is this entire section just one guy's opinion? There are only one or two sources, one of which is a commercial and doesn't strike me as all that accurate, and another even says that Bird denied the claims made on the page with no source backing up said claims. Koberulz (talk) 16:02, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Larry Bird/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

* In WPs Basketball, Biography needs references and inline citations plange 23:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 02:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 15:14, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Bio

I added the brief bio section to the right side of the article. Is it better or worse? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.28.163.77 (talk • contribs) 15:46, 4 July 2005 (UTC)

Coaching Record needed

Could someone write a detailed article about Larry Bird's coaching career with the Indiana Pacers? The number of games won, stats, etc? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.177.161.61 (talk) 10:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

File:Larry Bird Lipofsky.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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hello hello hello — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.34.40.96 (talk) 00:53, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

More Pictures

somebody add more pictures of his college and celtic years, and maybe some when he was coaching or more recent

damn right! SOmebody add any pictures at all


The main picture should be something more recent of Larry Bird. I'll edit this if anyone wants me to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sammelliott94 (talk • contribs) 15:33, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Looking for someone to nominate this article for GA status

Does anyone else think this article is up to GA status?--Bigpoliticsfan (talk) 23:47, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Height

Found these cards from the begining of his career that list him at 6'10":

http://www.comc.com/Cards/Basketball/1981-82/Topps/4/Larry_Bird_/1392392 http://www.comc.com/Cards/Basketball/1983/Star_All-Star_Game/2/Larry_Bird/1393290

In addition Larry always seemed to be almost the same height as most players listed at 6'11" so it does make sense. Aloncho11 (talk) 20:49, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Who will finish second 3-Point contest challenge

I have added Bird's 3-Point Contest challenge to the article. Almost all sources claim that at the 1986 NBA All-Star Weekend he walked into the locker room at the inaugural Three-Point Shootout and asked who was going to finish second before winning the shootout. However, one source at NBA.com, which seems to be based on the memory of a 10-year old decades later says that this happened after he won the first two and was preparing for his third consecutive win at the 1988 NBA All-Star Weekend. I am open to advice on how to handle this conflict. However, I think it is very legendary and should be in his bio.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:06, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

The paragraph before in the source in question begins "The NBA introduced the 3-Point Shootout competition during the 1986 All-Star Weekend ...", so I think the next paragraph about the challenge is still referring to 1986, not 1988.—Bagumba (talk) 19:50, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Dominique Wilkins

http://nesn.com/2015/02/dominique-wilkins-shares-great-larry-bird-story-from-early-days-of-rivalry/

Majinsnake (talk) 10:27, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2015

• In Spike Lee's groundbreaking film "Do the Right Thing", the white character Clifton is seen wearing a Larry Bird jersey, serving to contrast him with many of the film's other characters who wear clothing identified with African American sports stars, such as the character Mookie's Jackie Robinson jersey and Nike Air Jordans.

Please add this to the 'In popular culture' section. Several references are listed below:

http://offscreen.com/view/props_right_thing http://www.newyorker.com/culture/sarah-larson/do-the-right-thing-at-twenty-five http://kellimarshall.net/my-blog/10-things-might-missed-do-the-right-thing/

Sjscott77 (talk) 00:53, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. The "'In popular culture" section has been tagged for cleanup, as popular culture content should explain the reference's impact, not just form a trivial list. Refer to Wikipedia:"In popular culture" content for guidance. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 02:00, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Controversy

I suggest that an addition be made to the page in reference to the controversy that erupted regarding comments made by Dennis Rodman and Isiah Thomas in 1987: that if Bird were black "he would be just another good guy"(http://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/05/sports/thomas-explains-comments-on-bird.html). References to the incident show up both on Isiah Thomas's and Dennis Rodman's Wikipedia articles, but strangely not in Bird's. (Thomas's appears under 'Controversy: Michael Jordan rivalry' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isiah_Thomas), Rodman's under 'Basketball career: Detroit Pistons' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rodman)

The wording of the entry could be something like: "Following the emotional seventh-game loss to the Celtics in the 1987 Eastern Conference finals, Detroit's Dennis Rodman made headlines by directly accusing Celtics star Larry Bird of being overrated because he was white: "Larry Bird is overrated in a lot of areas. ... Why does he get so much publicity? Because he's white. You never hear about a black player being the greatest."^1,2 Rodman's teammate Isiah Thomas was then asked if he agreed with Rodman's comments, and reinforced that if Bird were black he "would be just another good guy" instead of being portrayed as the league's best player. Thomas later said he was joking and just supporting his teammate.³ Bird defused the controversy by saying he held no ill will toward Thomas: 'The main thing is that if the statement doesn't bother me, it shouldn't bother anybody.'⁴

References: 1. Puma, Mike (February 21, 2006). "Rodman, King or Queen of Rebounds?". ESPN. Retrieved August 31, 2008. 2. Bruce, Newman (May 2, 1988). "Black, White — and Gray: Piston Dennis Rodman's life was complicated by racial matters long before his inflammatory words about Larry Bird". Sports Illustrated. Retrieved August 31, 2008. 3. http://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/05/sports/thomas-explains-comments-on-bird.html 4. http://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/05/sports/thomas-explains-comments-on-bird.html Sjscott77 (talk) 22:50, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

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Red Auerbach quote

Auerbach's opinion does not belong in the very first sentence of the article. It is definitely not a basic part of Bird's life/fame, and creates a very misleading impression of Bird's status. It should either be moved down into the article or replaced with "Bird is considered to be one of the greatest." TheFix63 (talk) 20:49, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

It definitely shouldn't be replaced with weasel words, so moving it seems to be the only option for now. —LOL ^T/_C 02:29, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Why move it at all; just because one person who apparently doesn't know who Red Auerbach was says so? Red Auerbach knew more about basketball than any living person, ever; and I hate the Celtics! 72.173.169.25 (talk) 16:46, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

So every time people say "one of the greatest," that's weasel wording? There are literally countless articles which say the same thing, It is a perfectly acceptable and uncontroversial replacement for an unacceptable and controversial quote. TheFix63 (talk) 16:58, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

No, "is considered" is weasel wording (see Examples), and "one of the greatest"—without an explicitly stated source—is POV/OR. Prevalence does not imply acceptance, so that replacement is not an option. Also remember that we can't "combine" sources to reach a conclusion, per WP:SYNTH. —LOL ^T/_C 21:00, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Amazing how of all the NBA players with entries on Wikipedia, the only one with absurd complaints about "weasel words" in regards to a player's greatness is the entry for Bird. I could type in the name of any given hall-of-famer and read "one of the greatest players" of all time in the opening paragraph and not read a single complaint in the talk section, but for some reason, when it comes to Bird, particular individuals act as if such an accolade should not be used in reference to Bird. The entire entry is treated this way, with any proclamation of Bird's greatness being challenged for some odd reason, as if Bird is not one of the greatest players of all time. Furthermore, the notion that Auerbach's quote about Bird is misleading in regards to his status is, for lack of a better word, stupid. I challenge you to name any well-known basketball authority who doesn't consider Bird as one the top five or ten greatest players ever. The assertion that claims concerning his greatness are misleading in regards to his "status" as if Bird was just an above-average player, and that's it, is more revealing of the anti-Bird bias of a particular editor than the pro-Bird bias of someone who wants to include Auerbach's quote. But the most laughable is the complaint directly above this, as if multiple citations haven't been provided attesting to Bird's deserved place in the pantheon of all-time greats. The lack of consistency from this supposed "encyclopedia" is fuc*ing joke. And speaking of jokes, perhaps some of those who have spent so much time criticizing the Bird article (some of the criticisms, before they were removed, read as if they were written by Isiah "Bird is only praised because he is white" Thomas)could spend some time reading the absolutely ludicrous Jerry Lucas article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.141.152.117 (talk) 09:19, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

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