User talk:Captainda
April 2017[edit]
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Misleading information about the stoppage of tributary payments by Akitoye and Dosunmu[edit]
You are providing inaccurate and misleading information about Lagos' stoppage of tributary payments to Benin. Please see Page 90 of Prof Robert Smith's "Lagos Consulate" and desist from suppressing properly cited information.
Link provided here - https://books.google.com/books?id=VuZwqbFl5lsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=lagos+consulate&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-iOTx347VAhUKaD4KHa4ADTwQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=rebuffed%20by%20Akitoye&f=false
"Little now remained of its past power and glory, and the last attempts of the Oba of Benin to persuade the rulers of Lagos to pay the traditional tribute were rebuffed by Akitoye and Dosunmu (though, as was seen above, there are reports that payments were made by Kosoko at Epe)." Kunkuru (talk) 21:37, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
July 2017[edit]
{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 22:09, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Captainda (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
Request reason:
First, I believe I have been blocked because of the have attempted to reverse the undos that have been applied to my edits by user Kunkuru. Second, I believe that I have been civil in all my comments and that I have responded directly to the requests made by Kunkuru. For example, the request to read page 90 of Lagos Consulate was complied with and I responded with my opinion on the particular reference. Third, while I appreciate the Kunkuru's contributions to this topic, it appears that he or she is of the opinion that my edits are not in good faith considering the language that has been used in undoing my edits and on my talk page. I believe that I have made good faith attempts to present information that is backed up by references. A more open disposition to a varying view point may be needed to see that my contributions are actually meaningful. That said, my response to the Kunkuru on this matter is thus: First, your conclusion that Akitoye rebuffed Benin in his first reign is not backed up by any evidence. The page 90 of the Lagos Consulate book that you rely on can be easily interpreted to refer to his second reign since it mentions not only Kosoko at Epe, but also Akitoye's immediate successor, Dosunmu. Second, Kosoko who ruled after Akitoye's first reign, specifically told the British that "Lagos was under the Oba of Benin and that it was only that Oba who could deal with foreign powers concerning the status of Lagos"[1] In addition, Consul Beecroft wrote to the Oba of Benin declaring that "Kosoko, by opening fire on a flag of truce, had declared war on England" and therefore had to be replaced by Akitoye. He threatened that Kosoko had till the end of the month to surrender otherwise "Lagos would be totally destroyed by fire". [2] These are 2 different sources that show that up until Kosovo's reign, Benin still held sway. After Kosoko, under Akitoye's second reign and the subsequent reign for his son Dosunmu, the tributes stopped. This is supported by page 90 of the Lagos Consulate. So, unless Kunkuru has evidence to substantiate the claim that tributes stopped during Akitoye's first reign, the undos to my contributions should stop. On a related topic, Kunkuru asserted that British authority only commenced in 1861; and that neither Akitoye nor Dosunmu were under "British authority". I'd suggest that Kunkuru re-reads Akitoye's Wikipedia page where it is stated as follows: Jean Herskovits raises the possibility that Akitoye may have committed ritual suicide, fitting the traditional pattern of rulers taking their own lives after failing to meet expectations; Akitoye may have realized that his bargain with the British rendered him ineffective and established British authority over Lagos.[3] Notice that Herskovits referred to "British authority". Also note that Akitoye died in 1853, well before the formalisation of that authority in the Treaty of 1861. In conclusion, I hope I have been able to show that my contributions are substantiated by reason and by references. I have neither "suppressed cited information", nor "provided misleading information" as accused by Kunkuru, my fellow and able contributor. I therefore humbly request that I be unblocked and allowed to continue making my contributions
Decline reason:
Both you and Kunkuru (talk · contribs) were clearly engaged in an edit war. Neither of you stopped reverting and instead, took the dispute to the article's talk page. Therefore, the block is appropriate. Yamla (talk) 23:42, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
Response to Kunkuru[edit]
You appear to be fixated on a single, misinterpreted source (page 90, Lagos Consulate) to support your wrong premise that Benin's authority over Lagos had been lost during Akitoye's first reign as Oba. You have neither given a reason for the "rebuff" nor established any conflict between Benin and Akitoye during the first reign that could have led to "Lagos exercis[ing] more independence from Benin" (as you wrongly opined in Oba Adele's wikipedia entry). You even went as far as to state in your request for unlocking your wikipedia edit rights that "It is incorrect, not factual, and misleading to update Wikipedia with any words that suggest that Akitoye was ever under British authority." This is very surprising as it not backed up by fact or by various sources. It is actually quite alarming that you would make such a wrong and misleading statement that is totally lacking in basis or fact.
Find below just a few sources on de facto British authority after 1851 and the loss of authority by Benin as a result:
'The conclusion of the Treaty of 1861 was followed at once by the formal annexation of the port of Lagos as a “Colony and Settlement” , and it is noteworthy that this step was held at the time to amount to no more than the grant of formal authority to a Government “which for 10 years had already been in the hands of the British”'
'In 1851, Britain established a protectorate over Lagos that put an end to Lagos' s former allegiance to the Oba of Benin'
'...Eko, a military camp established by Oba Orhogbua but which had been ceded to the British in 1851 with the new name Lagos. Although British authority had been established, the Oba of Lagos still paid tribute to the Oba of Benin.'
If it is your opinion that all these authors are wrong, then I cannot argue any further.
In my previous posts, I have also provided sources that show that tributes were still being paid by Kosoko before he was deposed in 1851 by British forces. So your unverified conclusion that tributes were stopped in the 1840's is false.
Your interpretation of page 90 of Lagos Consulate is faulty. The time reference in the book was post-1862 as mentioned on the last sentence of that page 90. The rebuff mentioned on the page, when taken together with information from other sources, could only have set the timeline to post-1851; and the reasonable explanation for the rebuff, again based on stated fact, was the defeat of the last loyal, royal subject of the Oba of Benin in Lagos, Kosoko. Once Akitoye was installed by the British without the support of Benin, then it makes sense that the Benin's authority will wane and eventually disappear.
In conclusion, with these few points of mine, I hope I have been able to...(I'm sure you know the rest)
We learn every day.
Unreserved apology from Kunkuru for being too rigid![edit]
I hereby tender my apology for being too rigid regarding page 90 of Prof Robert Smith's text. Smith provided a footnote to another author: AFC Ryder, whose text"Benin and the Europeans: 1485-1897" unambiguously confirmed that it was indeed during Akitoye's second term that the tributes to Benin were rebuffed. I do disagree with your characterization of "British authority" over Lagos prior to 1861 however.
Lagos remained a Sovereign entity until its annexation by the British in 1861, though it entered into an alliance with Great Britain with the 1852 Treaty. I believe this is the point I was stuck on. I have updated the text on the Oba of Lagos page and will now update the other articles to reflect the fact that the stoppage of tributes happened during Akitoye's second reign. I hope you accept my olive branch. Kunkuru (talk) 01:33, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
The Greatness of the Kunkuru Olive Branch[edit]
Kunkuru, courage and greatness usually go hand in hand. You clearly have both. So your apology is a most welcome gesture and whole-heartedly accepted.
Let me use this opportunity to gain your insight regarding Ashipa.
Why do you think Ashipa is not listed as the first Oba of Lagos on Wikipedia? There are several sources outside Wikipedia that list him as the first Oba. Even his Wikipedia entry (which you authored) states that Ashipa "received a sword and royal drum as symbols of his authority from the Oba of Benin" and the "sanction to govern Lagos". No source that I have read suggests that Ado, his successor, received a fresh sanction and a new set of symbols of authority from Benin. All Ashipa's descendants have relied on the original mandate as their right to the throne. So, normally, Ashipa is, or should be, the first Oba of Lagos.
Also, the fact that the first royal seat was at Iddo should not disqualify Ashipa as the first Oba of Lagos since Iddo remained a part and parcel of the kingdom. See page 4, last sentence of 2nd paragraph, Lagos Consulate
Looking forward to your response
Ashipa should be noted as the 1st Oba![edit]
Bros (chai I will hear word if you are a woman - ha ha) good to hear from you. You know I actually thought about listing Ashipa as the 1st Oba at the time I authored the piece however I paid deference to the list of Obas of Lagos on Wikipedia which didn't list him as Oba. Since Ado was Ashipa's son I see no reason why Ashipa shouldn't be noted as the 1st Oba as records don't place him in any lower hierarchy to his son to please go for the update.
In addition to page 4 of Lagos Consulate, I just looked up 'Preface to Modern Nigeria: Sierra Leonians in Yoruba' by Jean Herskovits and she notes on page 64 that "When Ashipa came to Lagos as the first Oloriogun, sanctioned by the Oba of Benin, he received a sword and a royal drums symbols of his authority, and he was accompanied by a group of Bini "officers" who were to preserve the interests of Benin".
Finally Patrick Dele Cole notes (while recalling the Benin myth of the Lagos conquest) in "Modern and Traditional Elites in the Politics of Lagos" (page 12) that both Ashipa and Ado were viceroys over Lagos.
Case closed! Please update my guy! Kunkuru (talk) 00:36, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Re: Ashipa[edit]
Thanks Kunkuru for the useful feedback. Actually, Ashipa was on the first list that was updated on Wikipedia until it was changed by a contributor.
And yes, "Bros" is perfectly in order!
Copyright problem on Christopher Okojie[edit]
Content you added to the above article appears to have been copied from https://www.esanland.org/2016/03/dr-christopher-g-okojie.html. Copying text directly from a source is a copyright violation. Unfortunately, for copyright reasons, the content had to be removed. All content you add to Wikipedia must be written in your own words. Please leave a message on my talk page if you have any questions. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 13:52, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
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