Talk:Amon Amarth

Member term history
Seems like we're having member term history problems. So let's stop editing that section now and try to work this out the best we could. See Themgoroth's profile at metalstorm.ee; for Amon Amarth it says 1988-1991 and not 1992, therefore it is a contradiction. Also, here is Amon Amarth's page: just for reference. Though I fear this might just be a mirror of wikipedia informaition. Can anything be found out there that remotely shows when they were a member? FireCrystal (talk) 23:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Not Viking Metal
Amon Amarth is not viking metal, viking metal is a mix of viking themed folk metal and black metal, amon amarth is viking themed melodic death metal, so, they are not death metal, and just because a website says they are, that dosnt mean that they are, theres websites that say slayer is death metal, slayer isnt death metal, if you believed every single site and citedit on wikipedia, than the pages would be cluddered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.10.54 (talk) 04:23, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:TRUTH Wilhelm Meis (&#9742; Diskuss &#124; &#x270D; Beiträge) 05:25, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Nico's lastname
Wondering this hasn't been asked so far, but anyway Nico's lastname in the musicbox is "Mehra". However across the discographies an former members the his name is "Kaukinen".

Can someone provide the correct surname (Kaukinen seems a valid lastname, Mehra is some middle name, nickname, etc?) - ideally with some reference.

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.176.40.110 (talk) 17:50, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I think Mehra is a nickname, and I'm pretty sure Kaukinen is his actual last name. More importantly to the encyclopedia, however, the Amon Amarth web site and allmusic.com (two reliable sources) agree that his name is Nico Kaukinen. Wilhelm Meis (&#9742; Diskuss &#124; &#x270D; Beiträge) 19:02, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Consensus on Viking Metal or not
I see we are still going back and forth over whether or not the genre Viking Metal should be applied to Amon Amarth. I'd like to see some consensus building on this issue rather than just reverting back and forth, because as far as I can tell, no solid consensus has ever been reached on the issue at this talk page. Please remember that Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought, so wikipedians' opinions don't count, only reliable secondary sources count. Thus, the challenge is this: if reliable secondary sources can be produced that directly state Amon Amarth plays Viking Metal, then the genre should be included in the article; but if those sources can be demonstrated to be unreliable sources (following the guidelines established at WP:RS, not our own opinions), then the genre should be excluded from the article. !votes to include or exclude the Viking Metal genre are okay, but please be sure to include your rationale and cite reliable sources, WP policy and editorial guides, etc., because votes don't count in the end; discussion is what matters here. Thank you! Wilhelm Meis (&#9742; Diskuss &#124; &#x270D; Beiträge) 18:16, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
 * These internet sources all call the band Viking metal:, , , , , , . The following book sources also the identify the band as such do to its lyrical focus: Extreme Metal: Music and Culture on the Edge on pages 106-107 and Medievalisms: Making the Past in the Present on pages 108-109. Finally, we have statement by the band disputing the "viking metal" claim, similar to those already in the article: . The band's position is very well stated in the article, but the other side, the use of the Viking metal label, needs detailed discussion as well. For the record, the band is listed on the list of Viking metal bands, in case anyone does not know that.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 03:03, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree with 3family6. There are *plenty* of sources confirming that the band is regularly referred to as Viking metal in the press. It should absolutely be included on this basis, per the sources provided above. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:02, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Despite not using my account for two years, I received an email about a message on my page inviting me to contribute to this conversation. It's good to see you around Blackmetalbaz. Don't know if you remember me but we used to work together now and then years ago, mostly on black metal pages. In any case, I disagree with your position on this (sorry). Yes, there are sources referring to Amon Amarth as Viking metal. Part of the reason I left wikipedia was because users could often find idiotic sources to support their positions, whether they were right or not. While sources can be found to support the Viking metal label, many more can be found that simply refer to the band as playing death metal or melodeath as this article now states. Whatever the decision here, I don't even care about the band or anything, I still think it's absolutely wrong to call this band Viking metal, a style of music which emerged out of the black metal and folk metal scenes. Stylistically, Amon Amarth has nothing in common with these bands, besides their metal "roots." Many sources refer to them as Viking metal purely based on their lyrical content, which does not make a genre of music. Fans and critics are always doing stupid shit like that, though. You can find fans and critics saying Moonsorrow plays vampire metal, Finntroll plays troll metal, a number of bands play pirate metal (Alestorm being the most well known despite the fact that they play a mix of power, thrash, and folk metal). Over the years I've heard it all. There's plenty of examples of this kind of crap. It's not even rare, it's pretty common. That doesn't make it any more correct or any less idiotic. This is exactly the argument that is going on here. While certain lyrical content may be associated with music subcultures, what a band chooses to talk about in their lyrics has nothing to do with the genre they play. Stylistically Amon Amarth plays melodic death metal. Their music has nothing in common with the Viking metal subgenre. It's just that simple. Navnløs (talk) 14:33, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I can understand Navnløs leaving the project partly because “because users could often find idiotic sources to support their positions, whether they were right or not” (and the meaning in “reliable sources” is twisted, which is why I always use quotation marks here); see my talk page where I criticised that certain users (Baz included) seem to see see nothing but the project’s rules (that was no discussion with Baz but they fit the bill), and pointed out that “[s]ticking too much to certain rules […] turns out to be a huge problem” which led to quite a few clashes with certain users. On the German project, Unleashed and Amon Amarth are not part of the Viking Metal article, they are just mentioned as Death Metal bands with similar topics. By the way, Faust (Emperor) called Unleashed (along with Disharmonic Orchestra, Therion, Napalm Death, Afflicted, Entombed and Gorefest) a Life Metal band back then (From the Nordic Wastelands. Emperor. In: Putrefying Mass, no. 2, 1993, p. 16.).
 * Navnløs may disagree with the definition through lyrics, but that’s exactly what Black Metal started with; for the first wave, Mercyful Fate are a good example, and for the second, compare the Finnish, Greek and Norwegian styles that have nothing in common, yet Archgoat, Rotting Christ and Mayhem were all considered to play Black Metal because they were about Satanism. But I don’t really care about Viking Metal as I only like a few bands and hardly ever followed that scene, and I don’t care about Amon Amarth. But I doubt I have many references on Viking Metal, so I asked a user on the German project (where I am more active than here) whether he could help out. I’m planning to look through Rock Hard site (I can already tell that the current issue has an article on Amon Amarth, and the introduction mentions them as a Death Metal band [p. 23], and Mike Trengert, who signed them for Metal Blade Records, liked them because he is into simple Death Metal see here), Metal Hammer archive (thanks to Achim Raschka) and the Legacy site, and I will post my results later. --217 /83 10:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you (all of you) for your responses! Navnløs, I hope you will continue to contribute here, at least for a while.  If you (or anyone) have a couple RSs delineating the history of the genre and how Amon Amarth is outside of that history, I think including that info would benefit the article far better than simply placing (or omitting) an entry in the infobox.  It seems to me that the truth of the matter is that, as you say, there are many sources (even generally reliable sources) calling them "Viking metal" on the basis of lyrical content and not knowledge of the genre and its history, so plenty of sources can be found to support including the genre, but Wikipedia works on verifiability, not truth, so we can't just ignore these sources because we don't like their conclusion.  The path forward is to find reliable sources that explicitly counter inclusion and explain the difference between Viking metal's history and Amon Amarth's roots.  Ultimately, I think the Right Answer is to say Amon Amarth's inclusion in the Viking metal genre is controversial, giving references to "RSs" calling them VM, the band members denying it, and other RSs explaining the difference in a way that is understandable to those readers unfamiliar with the genre. Wilhelm Meis (&#9742; Diskuss &#124; &#x270D; Beiträge) 15:35, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

First: Welcome back Navnløs! Second: As the Viking metal article describes, the origins of Viking metal did arise primarily from black metal. However, David W. Marshall in Mass Market Medieval: Essays on the Middle Ages in Popular Culture says Viking metal includes symbolism of black and death metal (pg. 65), and cites both the black and death metal scenes in late 1980's Scandinavia as origins of the genre (ps. 62, 63).-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 19:25, 24 June 2013 (UTC) Another point: While the assertion that Viking metal primarily emerged from black metal is supported by reliable sources, it also is complicated by the then highly interchangeable use of labels in the 80's extreme metal scene by media and journalists. Prior to the Norwegian wave in the early 90s the terms thrash, death, black metal, and even speed metal were often used interchangeably and black metal was initially only a lyrical distinction. However, even if we ignore this, Amon Amarth did not even form until 1992, after Viking metal already emerged as a genre. Genres evolve, so it is perfectly reasonable for a band like Amon Amarth to be labeled Viking metal. Emo initially meant a form of post-hardcore, but now is practically interchangeable with pop punk. My point is, Bathory, pioneered the style in the late 80's  (ignoring earlier, non-extreme contenders like Heavy Load), so while Amon Amarth formed in '92, the style had already developed, and newer bands like Amon Amarth and Unleashed could be considered a new evolution of the style, taking the lyrical themes of a black metal offshoot and applying these themes to a death metal sound.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 23:23, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
 * In 1992 Viking Metal was not an established term (I didn’t use “genre” because Hammerheart etc. do not really sound like e. g. early Enslaved). I can only recall Enslaved and Mock (from Norway, too) using that term, and maybe Quorthon did, too; for Enslaved using the term, there are a few flyers and of course Frost and Nordic Metal – A tribute to Euronymous, and for Mock see Tales of the Macabre, no. 1. For Unleashed see above. --217 /83 10:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Further note: I already referenced Pugh and Weisl's Medievalisms: Making the Past in the Present, but I'll elaborate further. Not only do the authors identify the band as Viking metal, they seem to consider them a major pioneer in the style: "Bathory was soon joined by other groups such as Amon Amarth and Ensiferum, each offering its unique perspective on a musical genre and mythological world..." (pg. 108-109).-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 00:15, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * What Ensiferum play is disputed, too. I never heard anybody claiming Amon Amarth were a major pioneer of anything. All Bathory, Amon Amarth and Ensiferum have in common are their lyrical content and the fact that they play Metal, so there is no common “musical style” here. --217 /83 10:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Amon Amarth is NOT viking metal. HAVING LYRICS TO DO WITH VIKINGS DOES NOT MAKE YOUR BAND VIKING METAL. That's like a pop punk band writing about "death" so they're automatically a "death metal band" for that reason. Not to mention by the resolution of lyrics, lyrical themes never determine what your genre is. That's just stupidity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.232.153.138 (talk) 23:29, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Please make a cogent, policy-based argument based upon reliable sources (or dealing coherently with the reliability of existing sources). All I see here is a weak argument based on WP:TRUTH and WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. We've all heard the "HAVING LYRICS TO DO WITH VIKINGS DOES NOT MAKE YOUR BAND VIKING METAL" argument many, many times before. It's lost any effectiveness it ever had, IMHO. So please, let's move on and talk sources. Wilhelm Meis (&#9742; Diskuss &#124; &#x270D; Beiträge) 03:00, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Have you ever heard of Christian metal? And as I mentioned above, black metal often originally applied solely to the lyrical inclination of the band.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 00:27, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * And later ideological Satanism, and there are still people who stick to that; see comment about first and second wave above. --217 /83 10:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Never have I ever heard any lyrics determine the genre of the band. I mean have you heard this band called Happy Days? They're a black metal band from the USA that have lyrics with NOTHING but revolving around depression and suicide. There's even instrumental black metal. Lol it's pretty stupid why anyone would think that viking metal is just "ogm they talk about vikings = viking metal" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.232.153.138 (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Then you never heard about Anarcho-Punk, Fun-Punk, Rock Against Communism etc.? For Black Metal, again, see comment about first and second wave above. --217 /83 10:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Or Straight edge, or Porngrind or Goregrind.--Sheep18 (talk) 11:54, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I actually wanted to edit my last message and add at least Porngrind and Goregrind, but you were faster. Straight Edge is a good example, too; thanks for these.
 * Looks like this conversation is mostly dead, but I wanted to point out that most of those are not genres, they're movements (especially with straight edge and rock against communism) or music "scenes" that deal with certain ideologies or lyrical content. None of them are genres, though, except arguably anarcho-punk. Those other supposed "genres" either don't have a specific sound associated with them (RAC and straight edge) or belong to other genres (pornogrind and goregrind not really being any different than grindcore, for example, except for a more specific lyrical focus).98.255.209.55 (talk) 08:28, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, as mentioned above, I would go through a few German magazines. Thanks to Trollhead for telling me that there was a Viking Metal article in Metal Hammer, april 2011, and for this link (Imke von Helden, Department for Scandinavian Studies, Albert-Ludwigs-University, Freiburg, Germany); haven’t read the whole thing myself yet, but here’s a quote: “There are many ideas about what constitutes Viking Metal: descent or music, image, ideology or historical correctness.” Von Helden seems to see Amon Amarth as a Viking Metal band. The Metal Hammer issue contains an interview with Amon Amarth, too, which claims that the Metal scene categorises them as a Death Metal band though Amon Amarth now think the term doesn’t fit them anymore (referring to an earlier interview, see below); the Viking Metal term is not mentioned one single time during that interview. Reference: Anzo Sadoni: Amon Amarth. Der Pakt der Nordmänner. In: Metal Hammer, April 2011, p. 35. It is followed by the Viking Metal article by Robert Müller, who claims that Viking Metal’s history is quickly told: there’s none; quote: „An und für sich ist die Geschichte des VIKING METAL schnell erzählt: Es gibt keine.“ And he points out that stylistically, Amon Amarth don’t fit in. Reference: Robert Müller: Viking Metal. Das Phantom mit dem Hörnerhelm. In: Metal Hammer, April 2011, p. 38. According to Müller, the whole thing started with Manowar’s 1984 album Sign of the Hammer which mostly dealt with Nordic-heroic topics; then not much happened besides a few “bizarre” exceptions like Viking’s Do or Die. Then in 1988 Bathory (after releasing three albums that were important for later Black Metal) adopted such topics on Blood Fire Death, and Johnny Hedlund started Unleashed in 1989; their first album Where No Life Dwells followed in 1991. According to Müller, both albums had the potential to procreate epigones like Sign of the Hammer but Death Metal had its identity crisis and was too left-wing and cosmopolitan for Nordic heritage, and Bathory were too far away from the mainstream. The whole thing really started with the Norwegians, especially Enslaved with Viking topics on their 1993 EP Hordanes Land, whereas later releases and bands like Helheim, Thyrfing and Windir adopted more and more mythological and esoteric views. Then Müller comes to what he considers to be the death blow of Viking Metal as a distinct genre: Helheim’s Jormundgand ended with an ambitious track, but that one was not really compatible with Metal and therefore brought no musical re-definition. According to Müller, all that was left for the crowds was to meld with the emerging Pagan Metal scene: to add Folklore elements, not to care too much about the historical or ideological background, and swing round the drinking-horns. So here’s a scene that’s musically identifiable, but the Viking identity was lost. For that history stuff see p. 38f. According to Müller, Amon Amarth did pretty much the same thing as Manowar and Unleashed: taking great Metal and adding a horned helmet, and stylistically, they are perfectioning what Allegiance (Swedish band, no article here) did on Hymn till Hangagud in 1996; the same year, Amon Amarth released their hardly noticed first EP Sorrow Throughout the Nine Worlds, but for many, they had perfected their style only with The Avenger in 1999. Müller considers the sound to be the heritage of Bolt Thrower. And he points out that he can’t and doesn’t want to name Amon Amarth as one of the founders of Viking Metal since where there are no imitators, a band can only stay unique. There is also a list of five milestones: Sign of the Hammer, Blood Fire Death, Where No Life Dwells, Enslaved’s Eld and Amon Amarth’s With Oden on Our Side which he calls the breakthrough not for a non-existing genre but for its most important band. He also mentions Bolt Thrower’s The IVth Crusade as a sixth milestone not because of its content but as the blueprint for Amon Amarth. For the part on what Amon Amarth did and on the milestones see p. 39.
 * The Metal Hammer artist profile calls Amon Amarth a Death Metal band, as do e. g. Florian Krapp’s live report (Florian Krapp: Amon Amarth. Siegreiches Silvester. In: Metal Hammer, March 2009, p. 62f.), the Twilight of the Thunder God studio report (Florian Krapp: Amon Amarth. Mit Thors Hilfe. In: Metal Hammer, September 2008, p. 24f.) and the 2008 interview which also references that they don’t see themselves as a Pagan Metal or Viking Metal band (Florian Krapp: Amon Amarth. Götterdämmerung. In: Metal Hammer, October 2008, p. 29.); I didn’t list every live report etc. here, hope it’s okay. In a 1999 interview, Martin Wickler claims Amon Amarth once called themselves a Viking Metal band (Martin Wickler: Amon Amarth. Auf Rache aus. In: Hard Rock & Metal Hammer, October 1999, p. 118.), and in 2004, Johan Hegg called the Viking Death Metal term a very good description of their music (Gunnar Sauermann: Amon Amarth. Fröhlicher Blutrausch. In: Metal Hammer, October 2004, p. 65.). In 2011, Johan Söderberg called Amon Amarth a regular Heavy Metal band with Death Metal vocals, as the new albums shows according to him (Gear of the Dark. Nordischer Metal-Gladiator. In: Metal Hammer. March 2011, p. 113.). They are called Viking Death Metallers (Anzo Sadoni: The Unholy Alliance III. Unzerstörbarer Kult. In: Metal Hammer, January 2009, p. 25.) or even the kings of Viking Death Metal here, Viking Metallers there and Viking Metal giants when they raffle off a few t-shirts (Schatzkiste. In: Metal Hammer. June 2011, p. 14.). All Metal Hammer reviews (hope you don’t actually need a list) list them as Death Metal, except that one listing them as Melodic Death Metal, and Müller calls their style Viking Death Metal.
 * I need a break now; I will go through the Rock Hard and Legacy sites when I have the time to do so. --217 /83 22:03, 30 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Wow, that's some really nice research! Some of that would be really good for the Viking metal article. More to the point, I think this proves that the question of whether Amon Amarth is Viking metal is a robust and complicated one.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 12:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I hope I can take care of the Viking Metal article soon; I thought of that myself. For the band article, I suggest something like: “Amon Amarth are a Swedish metal band. Their musical style is generally referred to as melodic death metal, but they are also sometimes classified as Viking metal due to their lyrical content. The band themselves once called their style ‘Viking death metal’ but nowadays reject the Viking metal term.” Something like that for the introduction; it can and should be elaborated below, as part of a section on musical style and lyrics. But I’m not sure about the box and category. --217 /83 14:12, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a good idea for the style section, it's pretty much along the lines of what I thought. Yeah, I don't know what to do about the infobox. The band can probably be categorized as Viking metal though.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 15:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Johan Hegg himself has stated in an interview with the Metal Web that they play death metal, not viking metal, and that very line from the interview is cited on Amon Amarth's own wikipedia page, aswell as another quote from the band's biography where Hegg states that the band does not associate themselves with viking metal, precisely because he associates that genre with norwegian black metal. "In our mind [this term is] very much associated with bands that come out of Norway who are playing a very black metal oriented music and that’s not what we play. Sure, we have the same inspirations when it comes to the lyrical themes but musically we’re a completely different kind of metal so it’s tricky" is the quote from Johan Hegg used on the wikipedia page on Amon Amarth, so we've at the very least got conflicting entries where one suggests it's not viking metal but it is on the list. The band's own comments and the many Metal Hammer reviews referenced in an earlier comment that class it as death metal or melodic death metal should outweigh the many identifications of Amon Amarth as a viking metal band based solely on lyrical content. The reviewers are, after all, the professionals. End of facts: In my opinion you cannot base a musical genre solely on lyrical content. Any source that does so should be disqualified as a reliable source; if f.ex Britney Spears or 50 Cent would write and sing/rap a song about vikings(ludicrous as the idea might be), that would not make the song a viking metal song, or even a viking pop or viking rap song. It'd just be a pop song or a rap song. I know it's a very unlikely example, but it's still the same situation. All this aside, it doesn't really look like we're reaching much of a consensus, still :| 83.85.115.132 (talk) 23:04, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd like to point out that Leaves' Eyes have many Viking-themed lyrics as well, but nobody classifies Leaves' Eyes as Viking metal purely based on lyrical content (and Scandinavian folk influences); that would be patently silly. (To say nothing of Led Zeppelin's "Immigrant Song"!) I agree that Viking metal (if one insists on recognising such a genre at all) is and remains the style pioneered by Bathory's Hammerheart, and to call completely standard melodic death metal "Viking metal" if it has no black metal, folk or symphonic influences at all is just nonsense; uninformative blabber by journalists who know nothing to say about music, which seriously calls their competence into question and disqualifies them as sources. See Leaves' Eyes: If I described their music (let alone "Immigrant Song") as "Viking metal" (hell, at least they have symphonic and Nordic folk influences and occasional semi-harsh vocals!) I would be seriously misleading people and defeat the whole purpose for which genre terms are invented in the first place: to describe, in a nutshell, music. Clueless music journalists keep failing to understand this, misrepresenting and misapplying genre labels to the chagrin of people who are actually knowledgeable about music, or at least experienced enough as listeners to recognise the trademark sound of a genre (it's hard to believe journalists can't do the same, but perhaps they do not care or professional music journalism these days is mostly about acting as promotional mouthpiece of the big labels, which is probably closer to the truth from what I've heard from people with inside knowledge of the biz). Rant over. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:47, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Amon Amarth discography
 Split  - Discography section is becoming long with respect to the remainder of the article and should be split. Thoughts? --Jax 0677 (talk) 12:26, 6 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree. Do it. 65.123.148.34 (talk) 21:47, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - I like to wait for the first and last day of one month to pass (in this case September 30, 2013) before I split out a discography, unless it is something that I inserted myself, in which case I will usually allow one week. --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:47, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Viking Metal??
People keep adding viking metal to the genre section. I agree with them being Death Metal and Melodic Death Metal, but viking metal is a totally different genre related to black metal. Eg: bands like Bathory. Amon Amarth's music is nowhere near the style of Bathory or any other true viking metal band.Please provide proper sources. Even Johan Hegg mentioned in this article that they do not consider their music to be viking metal at all.Knightrider abhi (talk) 04:38, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct, unfortunately, some people's mindsets are incapable of accepting such a simple concept.TenaciousDio (talk) 06:12, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Stop adding Viking Metal
As many have stated before, viking metal is a black metal subgenre. Amon Amarth are a death metal band. If you want to add viking metal, yo're going to need sources and consensus.BrainPower3 (talk) 19:37, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * There are plenty of sources calling Amon Amarth Viking metal, and there aren't many (if any) sources other than the band itself which say that Amon Amarth isn't Viking metal - it's reaching a consensus here on Wikipedia the proves a problem.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 20:41, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * That my be right, but viking metal is considered a black metal subgenre. Amon Amarth is widely considered to be a death metal band by most sources. Death and black metal have very little to do with each other. Their lyrics do talk about Norse mythology, but viking metal is defined by musical style and not just lyrical themes. BrainPower3 (talk) 07:28, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * That I know (I've been one of the major contributors to the Viking metal page here on Wikipedia). But concepts of genre, and which bands belong under a genre, often change, and Wikipedia should change to match what sources say.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 14:17, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Viking metal - again. Hopefully for the last time.
I recently restored "Viking metal" to the infobox, as that seems to be the consensus that emerged here. Another editor challenged this, and I regret to say that we got into an edit war. I've refrained from editing the page for now, and currently Viking metal is not listed in the infobox. However, I managed to find some sources that should definitively settle the issue once and for all.

In The Metal Void, a publication that came out of the Heavy Metal Fundamentalisms conference, there is an article, "Metal for Nordic Men: Amon Amarth’s Representations of Vikings," in which Florian Heesch clearly and in extensive detail describes Amon Amarth as Viking metal. On page 72 (87 in the PDF nav bar) he writes: "The Swedish band Bathory had a large impact on the spread of interest in Norse topics, starting with the album Blood Fire Death (1988). Bathory also used the appropriate Viking imagery. Musically, Bathory where influential on black metal as well as on death metal bands. While receptions of Norse myths where mostly important in black metal, especially the Norwegian black metal of the early 1990s, and the younger pagan metal, bands as the Swedish Unleashed made the topic fit into death metal before Amon Amarth appeared."

The article "Barbarians and Literature: Viking Metal and its Links to Old Norse Mythology" by Imke von Helden also clearly identifies Amon Amarth as Viking metal, and von Helden writes, in her opening paragraph, that "Viking metal is a comparatively young subgenre of heavy metal music. There are difficulties in defining it, because the definition - apart from certain elements like anthem-like choruses - is not based entirely on musical features and overlaps with other metal genres. The music derives from the also Scandinavian-coined genres of black and death metal. It is furthermore closely linked to another subgenre called pagan metal, which deals mainly with Pagan religions and lies in a broader context where not only Old Norse mythology is dealt with, but also Celtic myths and history, fairy tales and other elements of folklore. Traditional instruments like the violin or flute are used more often in pagan than in Viking metal music." von Helden further writes, on page 258 (273 in the PDF navbar), "During the 1990s, Swedish Amon Amarth added a new dimension to the definition of viking metal by means of their death metal style of music." In a previous article, the paper she composed for her presentation at the Heavy Metal Fundamentalisms conference, von Helden writes "Though most Viking metal bands have a black metal background, Viking metal is defined by topics rather than music. That is why death metal bands like Amon Amarth and Unleashed are often included in the league of Viking metal bands." - Page 34, 45 in the PDF navbar.

Those three sources above (technically two - Heesch and von Helden) I think definitively settle the argument.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 15:40, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

There is a sourced definition of Viking Metal, you are using the 'moving the goalposts' fallacy to adapt the definition to suit your own delusion. You need to prove that AA's music is objectively Viking Metal, not someone who stretches an already established music genre's definition to include a band with no musical connections to that genre, just because of personal incredulity. Its like me changing the definition of Black Metal just because there is a Power Metal band that uses satanic lyrics. Black Metal = "Black Metal and a couple of Power Metal bands", is the same as Viking Metal = "Viking Metal and a couple of Death Metal bands".....???

You see it simply makes no logical sense, nothing any 'source' can say can change logic and objectivity.

You then change the infobox, and then give the edit war warning to someone who changes it back to how it was, where as it is you who is edit warring by adding unstable information... god this page could really do without you.

You are an absolute idiot. TenaciousDio (talk) 06:13, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It was both our faults for the edit war. I only changed the infobox to match the outcome of the above discussions, and in light of the new sources I provided immediately above. As it is challenged, I will refrain from reverting again. I have not moved the goal posts or committed a fallacy - I have provided sources that definitively speak on the matter. I have provided sources, the ball is now in your court to show source supporting your position. Please provide sources indicating the music genre's established definition.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 15:47, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

NOTE: For now, as it has proven a consistent source of instability, I have removed the genre field from the infobox entirely. That always seems to be the target for revisions, not the actual article content.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 16:00, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not very knowledgeable about this subgenre of heavy metal, but as far as the press go, I remember that last summer I've read a review by Joel McIver in Metal Hammer about their latest album, in which he elaborated that Norwegian mythology was key lyrical subject in Amon Amarth's songs. If I recall correctly, he named the band Viking metal, but I'm not sure if a review on one album can secure a spot in the genre field. The band describe themselves simply as death metal (and/or melodic death metal), which, according to me, should be featured in the opening sentence description.--Retrohead (talk) 22:23, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Retrohead, for your input. The opening sentence description does right now mention that the band is melodic death metal.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 04:18, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Sourcing Amon Amarth as having been described as Viking metal in reliable sources is trivial; it took me approximately 10 seconds to find this statement on Allmusic: "Melodic death metal legends who also rank as one of the most influential bands in the Viking metal movement." Note as always that individual editors' opinions about the source are irrelevant, provided it meets the WP:RS criteria, which Allmusic biographies (although not the sidebar) do. Another editor has also provided quite a number of sources that appear to pass the relevant criteria as well. Editor opinion about what constitutes "Viking metal" is meaningless; WP is concerned with verifiability, not "truth" (as things like music genre are intensely subjective). If the band has been described by reliable (for WP values of 'reliable', not 'agrees with editor X') sources as Viking metal (and they clearly have), the term should be included. Also, note to one of the editors above (they of the "you are an idiot" comment): read WP:CIVIL before you get blocked from the project. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:23, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Do not remove Melodic Death Metal
Why the need to remove something that is undisputed? Everyone agrees that AA are objectively melodic death metal, whether they believe they are also Viking or not. Just because Viking Metal is a disputed and unstable tag doesnt mean you should remove MDM. The opening sentence even describes them as a 'melodic death metal band', having it in the infobox causes no harm.

Lets keep the controversial tags to the genre analysis in the article, but keep the undisputed, objective, absolute genres in the infobox, that way, both genres are recognized, and no one argues. TenaciousDio (talk) 05:14, 7 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Removing the field entirely is the best course unless a permanent consensus can be reached. The field has been removed before because of contention. If left in, some editors will continue to add Viking metal (I don't mean myself, but if you look in the history, anons have done so before) and others will continuously object. The opening sentence says the band is melo-death, so you still know what the band's primary classification is.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 04:17, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Removing Viking Metal is the best course unless a permanent consensus can be reached on that. Melodic Death Metal has nothing to do with the viking metal dispute, it is permanent, it is objective, it is established, it has not caused contention. This page is more accurate and stable with it in the infobox. You cannot remove it just because you dont understand how Amon Amarth are not viking metal, and why viking metal is not worthy of the infobox.

Lets keep the controversial tags to the genre analysis in the article, but keep the undisputed, objective, absolute and established genres in the infobox, that way, both genres are recognized, and no one argues.


 * Sure, I'm fine with that. I was just trying to find a compromise and avoid future contentions. It's not that big a deal either way.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 15:22, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Non-viking Vikings
While doing research for an essay I came across an interview with Johann Hegg that I found rather interesting. It's a general interview but in it he mentions that he is actually an atheist. For him the source material that he pulls from at times (in the interview case he is referring to the Edda) is just something philosophically stimulating and interesting to think about. I'm not sure but I kind of feel like that's something that should be included in the bio of a "viking metal" band. I have included the exact bit from the interview I am refering to and a link to the entire thing.

JH - Unfortunately, when I was a kid, they didn’t teach you almost anything about the Viking history and heritage. You didn’t get to read the Edda or the Younger Edda in school. You got to read a few stories just to know that “this is it.” It was just a very small thing, not a big historical thing. That’s how my interest started, reading that in school, and then I started looking into it. My sister was a lot into it, and she’s five years older than me. She, of course, inspired me a little bit, as well. When I was eleven or twelve, I borrowed the Younger Edda at the library in my hometown, a small village. I went to the library and borrowed it and read it, and I thought it was fantastic. When I got a bit older, I went for the Poetic Edda. There were these Danish comic books called Valhalla, which were describing some of these really cool old mythological stories, and I loved reading those. It was a lot of stuff like that, as well.

http://www.norsemyth.org/2010/08/interview-with-johan-hegg-of-amon_12.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by CorySelfInvictus (talk • contribs) 02:09, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The article does already have an fairly extensive quote from that same source, so I think more could be worked in. I wouldn't get too specific, though, as the article is about the band as a whole, not just Johann Hegg. Many, I would even venture to say most, pagan/Viking metal performers would have atheistic viewpoints, so it's that that unusual at all that Hegg's an atheist.-- 3family6 ( Talk to me   &#124;  See what I have done  ) 03:49, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

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Number of studio albums
The opening paragraphs say they’ve made 11 studio albums, but The Greatest Heathen Army’s page says it’s their twelfth album. SswampyOasis (talk) 13:52, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We must have failed to update it regarding The Great Heathen Armys release. It is abundantly evident that the band has 12 full-length albums and not 11. Mungo Kitsch   (talk')  21:18, 27 November 2022 (UTC)