Talk:Antonio Margarito

Sources for nationality
All the references to and all the External links to this Article, say that Margarito is Mexican. To obtain a Mexican citizenship is very simple if both your Parents are Mexican, All you need is a valid id of any nation your from & copies of both parents birth certifacates. Almost every Mexican American Boxers does due this to get Huge Tax Breaks when they fight in Mexico. Yet Margarito is different because he's married to a Mexican, has lived his entire life in Tijuana. That's why no one can produce any valid Source to prove that Antonio is any thing But Mexican. In the Lead of this Article I think we can all agree that it's fine to leave Mexican American since he holds citizenship in both countries. But he's better known as a Mexican, Please feel free to Show Some Source so we can all discuss this further.--Polvo (talk) 23:44, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Your words, "That's why no one can produce any valid Source to prove that Antonio is any thing But Mexican." Here you go, and I quote, "And even after Margarito, a U.S. citizen with an American passport, changes his address, that's likely to remain the same." That's the LATIMES, please PROVE that he is a Mexican citizen with a reference to him obtaining citizenship or traveling on a mexican passport. Thank you. BrendanFrye (talk) 23:52, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * So why does Every single External Link have Margarito as a Mexican National. He still has his American passport but he also has Mexican citizenship. But is he known as an Mexican or a American. Check all the references to and all the External links to this Article, they almost all refer to Margarito as being Mexican.--Polvo (talk) 00:08, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Because it is more profitable to be represented and sold as a Mexican fighter than an American one. This is common practice in boxing and now in MMA. Anyway, please PROVE that he is a Mexican citizen with a reference to him obtaining citizenship or traveling on a mexican passport. Thank you.BrendanFrye (talk) 00:13, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Guess there is no talking with you. Your constant revisions have left me without the ability to assume good faith. Please stop vandalizing the article by adding unsourced and false information. BrendanFrye (talk) 00:16, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * He still has his American passport but he also STILL has his Mexican citizenship. Boxrec.com is a Very Trusted Site. Margarito holds a six week Camp in the U.S. but spend all his other time in Mexico. My argument is that Antonio is both a Mexican & American citizen but he's better known as a Mexican.--Polvo (talk) 00:42, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Please prove that he holds Mexican citizenship. I'm pretty sure that he doesn't. BrendanFrye (talk) 00:44, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely ridiculous conversation here. He was born in California. He is an American by the only definition there is: citizenship. Anyone born in the US is by definition American because they are American citizens.

Savagedjeff (talk) 04:45, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

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Request for Comment about Antonio Margarito's nationality
I and other editors have been unable to resolve our differences regarding how to list the nationality of Antonio Margarito (AM). I hereby request neutral editors to take an objective look at the issue before it devolves into an all-out edit war.

Nature of issue
The following facts are undisputed (I believe):
 * AM was born in California, USA
 * AM was raised in Mexico
 * AM has lived the majority of his life in Mexico
 * AM has a US passport and citizenship
 * AM is listed by BoxRec and all major boxing governing bodies (WBO, WBC, IBF) as Mexican

The issue is centered around a single source, namely a January 23, 2009 article in the LA Times: "It's safer in the ring for Antonio Margarito". In this article, it is established that AM has a US passport, but the article repeatedly refers to him as Mexican and states that AM "is 100% Mexican and he'll continue to be 100% Mexican," even after setting up residence in San Diego, California.

Statement by
(and before him ) insist that since AM was born in USA and has a US passport, AM is American and American only, demanding that other editors produce evidence of AM having a Mexican passport and/or citizenship. AM's listing by governing bodies are deemed unworthy sources for nationality. Dual nationality and concepts of national identity cannot be considered without producing governmental paperwork, in their view. All efforts to present AM's nationality with any reference to Mexico have been immediately reverted, pending what I consider an unreasonable burden of proof. AM, by all accounts, considers himself Mexican and so does every source I can find.

A smaller issue, is whether BoxRec is solid enough of a source to presume that AM moved back to Mexico, following his time in San Diego. BoxRec is normally considered authoritative, but not good enough for Danggoshdarn, who will only recognize the LA Times article because it specifically talks about AM moving house and no profile or boxing record can supersede this article.

Thank you for your time. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 18:37, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

P.S. Most of the discussions have taken place on user talk pages, if editors want to see our failed efforts to resolve this on our own. --SVTCobra (talk) 18:41, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Antonio Margarito is an American. The article should clearly indicate in the lead that he is an American.  Boxing governing bodies do not convey to citizenship to people.  Reporters do not give people citizenship of a country. Governments and only governments are able to define the terms to meet to be a citizen and to convey citizenship. And the government of Mexico has not given him Mexican citizenship. Therefore, he is not a Mexican and remains an American.  In his heart, he may be a Mexican, but he remains an American until the Mexico gives him Mexican citizenship.  The time he spent in Mexico does not make him a Mexican citizen either.  There are plenty of people who have been in countries extended periods as permanent residents.desmay (talk) 01:16, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Compromise - I believe that based on the amount of reliable sources that describe him as Mexican, there is room for compromise here - born in America, he self-identifies as Mexican, per MOS:IDENTITY. “I am a Mexican. I would never quit,” Margarito said. - "I'm a Mexican and there's no way I was going to quit. I fight until the end." - I'm a Mexican, - you will have a new Mexican champion on the 13th. Additional reliable sources describing him as Mexican - Antonio Margarito, the tall Mexican slugger - The tough Mexican puncher - Controversial Mexican Antonio Margarito - Margarito, the Mexican star - Mexican opponent - Mexican champion Antonio Margarito - In the end, Mexico's Margarito - Mexican fighter Antonio Margarito - Mexican boxer Antonio Margarito - Mexican Margarito - typical Mexican fighter Isaidnoway (talk)  16:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Interjection by SVTCobra Boxing's governing bodies are perhaps not as highly regarded as the IOC, but they do not simply let boxers fight under whatever nationality they happen to write down on a form. The WBO, IBF, WBC are sanctioning serious events and require identification and other documents from their participants. If AM fights as a Mexican, he has, in fact, proved to them that he is a Mexican citizen. If a fighter is a dual citizen, they likely let him/her choose which country. The point I am trying to make is whether we trust those organizations less than a single LA Times article? Now, I don't distrust the LA Times, I don't even dispute that AM is also an American citizen. However, there are no secondary sources that support the claim that AM is American. Even the LA Times, asserts that he's "100% Mexican". For how many WP biographies have passports been demanded for proof of nationality? Or has WP trusted other authorities? Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 17:05, 30 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Comment: I, too, would like to see something more than just the LA Times article. Basic WP:UNDUE. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:32, 30 April 2017 (UTC)


 * He is American The founding country always has precedence. It is international law. I think even if he defines his own birthright as being Mexican, well fair enough. But he is most definitely American for our purposes. scope_creep (talk) 19:56, 30 April 2017 (UTC)


 * American by any standard that wikipedia sets Born in America, travels on a US Passport, and has US Citizenship. All verified. I'm shocked that we are even having this discussion as it is so clear cut. There is literally zero proof that Margarito is a Mexican national, has Mexican citizenship, has a Mexican passport, or was born in Mexico. Zero proof or reliable sources certifying ANY of those things that I just mentioned.  Danggoshdarn (talk) 21:47, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
 * If you guys can find something like this (Oscar de la Hoya receives Mexican nationality) than the problem would be solved. But I don't think you guys can because I'm pretty sure Margarito is not a Citizen or National of Mexico. http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue2/2003/03/14/133817-deadline-to-reclaim-mexican-nationality-looms/ Danggoshdarn (talk) 21:55, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Danggoshdarn, you are misintepreting that article, which is about someone who had renounced their Mexican citizenship, which was the case for every Mexican citizen who became a U.S. citizen prior to 1998. That does not pertain to Margarito at all. In fact, the reverse pertains to him: he was born in the U.S., yet from what I am reading about Mexican nationality law, if one of his parents was a Mexican national born in Mexico, then he has automatic Mexican citizenship from birth. That said, we would need proof of his parentage. Softlavender (talk) 07:38, 14 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Comment - There are other sources that mention Margarito being born in Torrance, but they also clearly state he grew up in Tijuana, Mexico, and say he's a Mexican (see refs listed above as well), which is completely omitted from this article which is contrary to WP:NPOV - all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. Considering the amount of sources that say he is Mexican (which is a significant amount) and was raised in Mexico and him self-identifying as being a Mexican, I'm surprised WP:NPOV is being ignored in this article. Seems like to me if editors want to identify him as being an American, they shouldn't have any problem finding some sources stating he's an American to support their arguments. Sources and references: born in Torrance but grew up on the hardscrabble streets of Tijuana - was born in Torrance in southern Los Angeles County but was raised in...Tijuana - Born in Torrance, CA but raised...in Tijuana - was born in California...raised in...Tijuana - was born in Torrance, Calif., but raised in Tijuana. - born in Torrance, Calif. but is a resident of Tijuana - American-born fighter who lives in Mexico - American-born Mexican fighter - Nationality: Mexican, Born: Torrance, California, U.S. - Place of Birth: Torrance, California, Nationality: American, Mexican - The fighter grew up in a cramped hillside house in Tijuana's hardscrabble Zona Francisco Villa,. As it stands now in the Personal life section, which says that Margarito is a U.S. citizen with an American passport and was born in Torrance California, currently residing in San Diego California with his spouse Lorena Margarito, can not be verified using this source that is cited there. The article needs to be updated to comply with WP:NPOV, there is plenty of room for compromise here folks. Isaidnoway (talk)  16:15, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
 * American, self IDs as Mexican  d.g. L3X1  (distant write)  13:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment What the lead sentence states should depend on how reliable sources commonly refer to him. WP:BLPLEAD states: "The lead sentence should describe the person as he or she is commonly described in reliable sources". Citizenship is not paramount, instead, we should look at how the subject self-identifies, and how reliable sources identify the person. WP:BLPLEAD also states: "In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident" (emphasis mine).  LK (talk) 10:02, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: Sources appear to overwhelmingly refer to him as Mexican and he self-identifies as such, therefore the lead should emphasise this, but his American citizenship should be mentioned in the same sentence. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 11:44, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree hence my ¡vote.  d.g. L3X1  (distant write)

Comment: I hate to belabor the point, but the WBO, IBF, and WBC determined that he could fight in their events as a Mexican. Therefore, Margarito did present to them legal documents to show that he is a Mexican citizen. They do not let boxers just choose which country they represent willy-nilly. While none of them disclose what documents they have seen, I hardly consider the LA Times to be more credible than the combined WBO, IBF, WBC. Also, it would have been extraordinarily easy for Margarito to have obtained Mexican citizenship while a child in Tijuana as both his parents are Mexican. Those who insist that he is only American boggle my mind. I thank you all for your time and comments. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 23:58, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment It seems there is no single-adjective solution to describing Margarito's nationality. I'd suggest something like L3X1's proposal.  The lede should describe him as "a professional boxer who is United States born and identifies as Mexican." or something like that.  The "Personal Life" section should be retitled "Early and Personal Life" and should give the biographical details of his birth, upbringing, and residency as an adult; currently, that section seems unduly tilted towards establishing and proving that he is a US person.  --DavidK93 (talk) 19:59, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Mention both For lead identify him as a American while also mentioning he self-identifies and fights as a Mexican. Perhaps also add into infobox something that mentions as a fighter he is representing Mexico, while leaving his Nationality as American. Or simply list both under Nationality as it is done with Oscar De La Hoya WikiVirusC (talk) 13:16, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * "Therefore, Margarito did present to them legal documents to show that he is a Mexican citizen." This seems to be a misperception. The fact that a sporting authority allows an athlete to compete under a certain flag is not proof of their citizenship. See, for instance, Felix Sanchez. That said, if either of Margarito's parents was a Mexican national born in Mexico, then he has automatic Mexican citizenship from birth, according to what I have read about Mexican citizenship laws. But we would have to have proof that at least one of his parents was a Mexican national born in Mexico. Softlavender (talk) 07:27, 14 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Leave the term out, or else "American who self identifies as Mexican"  I find the arguments for "Mexican" here the weakest, but it is more important to provide the sourced specific info (passport, known citizenship, where he has lived when, what he self-identifies as) than some overall contested characterizing word assigned by Wikipedia editors.  North8000  (talk) 12:56, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * American, self IDs as Mexican as others (e.g. L3X1, LK) have said. Furthermore, I agree with DavidK93 that the exclusive emphasis on his American citizenship and no mention of his self identification as a Mexican in the Personal Life section is contrary to WP:NPOV and smacks of POV pushing. Jschnur (talk) 22:50, 21 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Comment As I've commented before, Wikipedia's standard for inclusion of material is from Reliable Sources (RS), not from Government sources. If some reliable sources identify him as Amerian, while others identify him as Mexican, then the article should reflect that (e.g. Mexican and American), both in the lead and in the body. If it is undisputed (and supported by RS) that he self-identifies as Mexican, that carries a lot of weight, since a subject is a reliable source on himself, as long as the issue is not controversial (in the real world, not on wikipedia)) or self-serving (see WP:ABOUTSELF). LK (talk) 01:50, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Mexican, born in America. If other sources for 'US', apart from the brief mention in LA Times can be found, then "Mexican-American, with dual citizenship". The vast preponderance of sources say 'Mexican'. There is no 'birth/passport takes precedence' rule on WP, rather the opposite, the rule is nationality when became notable (eg A. Hitler is German, not Austrian) and this person is clearly known as a Mexican boxer and identifies as such. Pincrete (talk) 19:49, 26 May 2017 (UTC) … … … ps the present sources for 'American' fail verification, if I had not come across the 'LA Times' discussion above, I would have chosen 'Mexican' alone. Even in LA Times, a number of times he is referred to a 'Mexican'. Pincrete (talk) 20:00, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
 * We cannot state that someone has dual citizenship without reliable proof of that. His ethnicity may be Mexican, but unless he has Mexican citizenship we cannot state that. Softlavender (talk) 06:58, 14 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Comment: There is no indication in this wiki article that AM was raised in Mexico, nor that he has lived the majority of his life in Mexico. So please do not list those as "facts", much less "undisputed". There is also no evidence in this article that he self-identifies as Mexican. The word Mexico/Mexican only exists once twice in the body text of this entire article, and one is as the location of a comeback fight. Also, BoxRec is not a reliable source, particularly not for nationality. It is WP:USERGENERATED. Softlavender (talk) 05:39, 14 June 2017 (UTC); edited 13:43, 15 June 2017 (UTC) after new citation/info was added to the wiki article

NO, HES MEXICAN. Born and raised in Mexico, everyone knows that, that's why everyone calls him a Mexican. Haven;'t you seen he has Mexican flag on shorts, theres your proof. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.239.220.7 (talk) 12:36, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Mexican American. Seems fairly straightforward. Softlavender (talk) 09:05, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with and fully support having it as Mexican American, which is loose enough to mean several things. Whatever else there is to it (the U.S.-born aspect) can be expanded upon in the Personal life section. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:26, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree that Mexican American is accurate and I'm fine with the current edits on the page. However, that phrase in the lead along with the "American" in the nationality sidebar won't last long and will quickly be changed to "Mexican," at least from my experience on this page. Danggoshdarn (talk) 15:31, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The article is now semi-protected so that the edit-warrior cannot edit it. Softlavender (talk) 15:37, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * MacDreamstate just added Mexican to the nationality section on the infobox. Why would you do that? I thought we at least somewhat agreed on Mexica American. Danggoshdarn (talk) 01:33, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Both words as in Mexican and American or Mexican-American. Let's be clear as Mac Dreamstate is already inserting Mexican into the nationality section of the article. Danggoshdarn (talk) 01:43, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Let's be clear that I've just posted at your talk page clarifying why I (mistakenly) made my edit. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:40, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Both words. "Mexican American". That was the closing suggestion, supported by Softlavender, Mac Dreamstate, and Danggoshdarn, who seemed to be on opposite sides of the question originally, has marginally more support than "American who self identifies as Mexican", and is noticeably shorter, all good reasons. "Mexican and American" would probably also work, but didn't get as much support. However, that's secondary, the main point of the consensus was that he should not be referred to as simply one or the other, since we have noticeable sources that back up each. If you really want, you can have a separate discussion about whether or not to use the " and " or the "-" forms, but that's really splitting hairs (and hopefully would find a different person to close!). Until such a discussion, if there is a dispute, let's leave it as "Mexican American". --GRuban (talk) 17:38, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why Mexican American was removed from info box now. Before the rfc it was just a back and forth between having one or the other in, after the rfc closed both were added in, why are we removing it now? WikiVirusC (talk) 17:51, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I can explain what at least triggered that. I'm convinced I've seen some WP:BLP-related guideline which discourages "[Nationality]-[Nationality]" from infobox fields, and to use line breaks or plainlist instead; lead sections working in a different way. So I was just going on that, albeit from a hazy notion. User:Danggoshdarn then took exception, probably thinking I was taking liberties or editing in bad faith, and zapped the field completely. I don't have a problem with that, either—the nationality field for Carl Frampton has been omitted for ages now, due to so many drive-by edits listing him as Irish, Northern Irish, or British. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:48, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I see, I just didn't understand the wording of the edit comment (As the nationality changed from Mexican American to both Mexican and American...). It just threw me off since the decision of the rfc was to make it Mexican American, and "both Mexican and American" is just another way to say it. WikiVirusC (talk) 19:56, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with leaving it as Mexican American like I said before and WE ALL AGREED ON. However it was changed within the first 24 hours of the closing of the RFC, just like I said it would be. Give it another week or two and American will get deleted and it will just say Mexican. Also, "Mexican American" and "Mexican and American" are two completely different things. I don't understand how people can't grasp that. Danggoshdarn (talk) 00:33, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

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