Talk:Arrowverse/Archive 11

Crossover titles
Why do we use quotation marks for the titles of crossover, as opposed to italics? When a season is named, we use italics to title it, given that it's a collection of episodes, and we use the quotation marks for the titles of the episodes. Same concept here; each crossover is a collection of episodes. We use italics for other collections, such as Elseworlds, and per MOS:ITALICTITLE, italics are used for serials (a serial has a continuing plot that unfolds in a sequential episode-by-episode fashion), the equivalent of a crossover of multiple episodes. -- / Alex /21  00:08, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Any comments? -- / Alex /21  09:52, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll comment just to maybe get this rolling but I don't really have a lot to add. I can see your point regarding the serial, however I'm not sure what the original intention was at MOS:MAJORWORK when they used the ambiguous word "serial", as even according to the linked article, that word has very different meanings. When used as a replacement for "miniseries", then that is basically just repeating "TV series", and even when the meaning is "non-episodic TV series", such as almost any modern TV series, that is still the same meaning. However, if the meaning is a "story-arc that span entire television seasons or even the full run of the series" then that is something different, which might be similar to this situation. I think that in order to get an answer to this, this question should probably be raised either at the MoS page or TV project page with a link to the discussion in both places, as I don't think there are enough watchers here that are also knowledgeable in this area. --Gonnym (talk) 10:06, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Cheers. A good example of a series is something like the serials listed at List of Doctor Who episodes (1963–1989) - a group of multiple episodes that each have an individual title, while the overall serial has an overall title as well. I believe the crossovers to be identical to this given situation; while they span different series, they are a group of episodes that come together under a single title. -- / Alex /21  10:18, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm familiar with the Doctor Who serials, buy my point was, and sorry if I wasn't clear in my explanation above, that I'm not sure if the intention of "serial" in the MoS was meant to be "a group of episodes sharing a story" or a MOS:ENGVAR "correctness" for "miniseries" and "non-Procedural drama" that is now causing confusion. For what it's worth (and using the first 2 google news result, so take with a grain of salt), Screenrant uses italics for the TV series and the comic version of Crisis on Infinite Earths and uses normal text for Arrowverse and the crossover title; and comicbook.com uses italics for the TV series, normal text for Arrowverse, and quotations marks for the crossover title.--Gonnym (talk) 10:30, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry for not responding sooner, but I don't think you're thinking that they are like serials would apply. We should be looking at Minor works (any specifically titled subdivisions of italicized major works) are given in quotation marks at MOS:ITALICTITLE, MOS:NOITALIC, and MOS:MINORWORK. The crossovers are all storylines or chapters of the larger work (the individual series), so they should be in quotes, not italics. Just because the titles are spanning multiple series doesn't make them the "major work" in my eyes. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 06:59, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
 * No worries, happy to discuss. I wouldn't consider these minor works, as they are major groupings of minor episodes. They'd be more of a mid-level work, I guess: main series (major), crossovers (mid-level), episodes (minor). Per MOS:MINORWORK, a minor work could be: Single episodes or plot arcs of a television series or other serial audio-visual program: "The Germans" is an episode of the television programme Fawlty Towers. If one referred to the MINORWORK entry above, which is Chapters of a longer work (they may be labeled alternatively, e.g. sections, parts, or "books" within an actual book, etc.), I would point to split television seasons that have names, such as List of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. episodes, List of Shadowhunters episodes, List of Gotham episodes (and further seasons), List of Heroes episodes (and further seasons), etc. All italicized.
 * It's exactly how the comic issues, such as the original Crisis on Infinite Earths, is made up of smaller, minor issues; these crossovers are made up of smaller, minor episodes. The term serial still, in my opinion, applies to these crossovers, given that each "has a continuing plot that unfolds in a sequential episode-by-episode fashion". -- / Alex /21  07:15, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
 * But I think you could still consider the crossovers storylines, which would mean quotes. I forgot to mention in my first comment, but you sort of touched on it in your response. If we look to comics as an example (and I'm jumping to Marvel) let's look at Civil War (no formatting here on purpose for the moment, but that article has all kinds of formatting problems). There was Civil War, which was a comic book published so that's italics, but that was also telling the storyline "Civil War" (quotes), which was told through the main book, plus various tie-in comic books. So I think the same can be said for this. Arrow, Flash, Supergirl, Batwoman, and LoT are the "comic books" telling the storyline "Crisis on Infinite Earths" in the episodes "Crisis on Infinite Earths Hour One", etc. The second crossover might be clearer, with Arrow and The Flash telling the storyline "Heroes Join Forces" in the episodes "Legends of Yesterday" and "Legends of Today". As to your point about split television seasons, to me in that instance we are looking at just a longer show title/subtitle situation, which is why italics is used. So Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Ghost Rider being like Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, or Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:45, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * A crossover is both telling a storyline and is a grouping of episodes that tell that storyline. So, yes, you have the "Crisis on Infinite Earths" storyline, but you also have the Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover, which, as you said, are made of the episodes "Crisis on Infinite Earths: Hour One", etc. The article for the Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover concerns the crossover, that is, the grouping of episodes; the storyline will be listed in just the Plot section, and the crossover itself and made up of everything else in the article The first crossover makes things even clearer: how do we have both "Flash vs. Arrow" the episode and "Flash vs. Arrow" the crossover? If I said "Flash vs. Arrow", what does this refer to? It's ambiguous. It should be "Flash vs. Arrow" the episode and Flash vs. Arrow the crossover (which also contains "The Brave and the Bold" the episode). -- / Alex /21  01:54, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I still don't think by its definition, we can call the crossovers "serials/miniseries", because they are still parts of the normal TV series. I wouldn't suggest Gorilla City (The Flash) use italics, because that's a storyline, which MINORWORK says should be in quotes. And while the crossovers are "bigger" in scope/content, they are still storylines. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:23, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Serials are definitely part of a regular series; for example, every episode listed at List of Doctor Who episodes (1963–1989) is a serial, as it is an overall storyline that is comprised of multiple episodes. See the episode tables. (Until last year, the article was called List of Doctor Who serials). Still, none of this explains my final concerns in my previous comment, on how we made episodes and crossovers that match in title and formatting. -- / Alex /21  23:05, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I see the Dr. Who example, but I'm still not convinced it's a similar instance here. Maybe the solution is no formatting? So the hierarchy would be:
 * Series (Arrow)
 * Crossover title (Flash vs. Arrow)
 * "Episode title" ("Flash vs. Arrow")
 * Thoughts? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:35, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Definitely no on this version. --Gonnym (talk) 19:31, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It requires some formatting, we can't have it as just plaintext, as it is a piece of work. -- / Alex /21  23:47, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

My vote would still be for quotes then. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 05:06, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Same. - Brojam (talk) 05:06, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 * So, there's no further arguments... Right. Quotes it is, but I don't see anything supporting that, except for "let's just do this". -- / Alex /21  06:39, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Given that another editor went and converted them to italics in a separate edit, I believe it might be best to start an RFC on the issue. -- / Alex /21  00:06, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Whoops, I didn’t realize the consensus was against what I had done. I had only seen the talk page as of that last one from the 14th. I apologize.--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 04:06, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Request for comments on crossover title formatting
Should crossover titles use italics or "quotes"? RfC relisted by Cunard (talk) at 02:00, 9 February 2020 (UTC). RfC relisted by Cunard (talk) at 23:37, 28 December 2019 (UTC). 12:12, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Survey

 * Italics Summarizing my points in the discussion above, when a season is named, we use italics to title it, given that it's a collection of episodes, and we use the quotation marks for the titles of the episodes. Same concept here; each crossover is a collection of episodes. We use italics for other collections (it's exactly how the comic issues, such as the original Elseworlds and Crisis on Infinite Earths, are made up of smaller, minor issues; these crossovers are made up of smaller, minor episodes.), and italics are used for serials (a serial has a continuing plot that unfolds in a sequential episode-by-episode fashion), the equivalent of a crossover of multiple episodes. An example of series can be seen at List of Doctor Who episodes (1963–1989) - a group of multiple episodes that each have an individual title, while the overall serial has an overall title as well. Per MOS:MINORWORK, a minor work could be: Single episodes or plot arcs of a television series or other serial audio-visual program: "The Germans" is an episode of the television programme Fawlty Towers. If one referred to the MINORWORK entry above, which is Chapters of a longer work (they may be labeled alternatively, e.g. sections, parts, or "books" within an actual book, etc.), I would point to split television seasons that have names which are italicized. The first crossover makes things even clearer: If I said "Flash vs. Arrow", what does this refer to, episode or crossover? It should be "Flash vs. Arrow" the episode and Flash vs. Arrow the crossover. -- / Alex /21  12:12, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Not major, leaning Quotes - From reading the above discussion I do see Alex's point and I also do recognize that there seems to be some muddy part between between a major work and a minor work which might(?) need to be addressed, possibly with a new style, as I agree that since the guide says Single episodes or plot arcs of a television series or other serial audio-visual program, we have an issue where both the episode and the story arc share the same name and style, making it indistinctable.
 * I'd also argue that Alex raises a valid point that since television seasons are covered at Chapters of a longer work (they may be labeled alternatively, e.g. sections, parts, or "books" within an actual book, etc.) (emphasis mine), we are currently incorrectly italicizing them, and if changed to quotes, would again, make the style the exact one as episodes and harder to tell them apart.
 * One other point related to this discussion, Television and radio programs, specials, shows, series and serials uses the word "Serial" here, but that word as I explained above in the previous discussion has different meanings which change the context drastically from a major work (such as in The Buddha of Suburbia (TV serial) or Batman (serial)) to a minor work (such as The Reign of Terror (Doctor Who), which is multi-episode storyline, but only one part of the first season of Doctor Who). Since that word has vastly different meanings, it should either be clarified or just be removed to remove confusion.
 * From the above, I think the correct route is to correctly group "seasons", "serial arcs", and "storylines" and handle them the same way, as they are all "medium/median/intermediate" (word TBD) works. --Gonnym (talk) 14:03, 18 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Quotes: Per some of the points I stated above, these crossovers are still story arcs within each series, so per MINORWORK, storylines should be in quotes. Looking back to the comics, yes the comic book Crisis on Infinite Earths was italicized, but if you want to talk about it and include all the additional tie-in books, then you are talking about the storyline, which would be "Crisis on Infinite Earths". I agree with Gonnym that Alex brings up a valid point that there is some muddy-ness to what is a major work in italics and what is a minor work in quotes. But from the current definitions we have at the MOS, these should be in quotes. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 23:10, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Quotes per Favre1fan93. - Brojam (talk) 04:22, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Discussion
I support the simplified Arrowverse description as the now “Earth-Prime” as opposed to massive entire DCTV/Film multiverse being put under that label as it now basically includes every continuity. Really I don’t want to think, “hey, Superman Returns and Batman 89 are Arrowverse. It’s dumb. The Arrowverse/Earth-Prime description is what I support. Matthew Solomon Ryder (talk) 22:05, 15 January 2020 (UTC) Constantine never was a part of Arrowverse. IKhitron (talk) 21:50, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Arrow
 * Flash
 * Constantine
 * Supergirl
 * Legends of Tomorrow
 * Black Lightning
 * Batwoman

Links to Character Descriptions
I have a question related to the section "Recurring Cast and Characters". In the table there, almost every character has a link to a description of who they are. I'm wondering if there's a specific reason that such a link doesn't exist for Gideon or the Anti-Monitor, as both have descriptions in other locations (ie. List_of_The_Flash_characters/ List_of_Legends_of_Tomorrow_characters and Anti-Monitor, respectively). I suspect that the reason for Gideon not being linked might be that you can't have two links on the same text (though both references do link to each other - note that if this should be changed, the Legends link is more complete/of greater priority on that page), but the Anti-Monitor actually has a full page devoted to the character. Could someone please clarify? Thanks.

(My suggestion would be that perhaps there should be links there, but I thought maybe there was a reason that this was not so.) --Sailor7sakura (talk) 19:32, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Colors of the series' seasons
May I ask a question about the colors of the series' seasons? By what degree of accessibility and contrast are the different seasons' colors listed in the tables here were chosen? I'm mean, I'm aware the fact that they were actually taken from the original articles on the Arrowverse series', but I'm asking here because I have a discussion on the parallel article in the Hebrew Wikipedia (Where the same colors are included as here) with a user who assiduously claims that the seasons' colors were chosen at random, meaningless, and without regard to the Community Accessibility. The Gargoyle King (talk) 07:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Per Manual of Style/Television, season colors are generally selected based on a prominent color in the series logo or season poster. So they aren't "random". As well, since many of these shows exist in the same color palettes (dark green for Arrow, crimson for The Flash, red/blue for Supergirl etc.) secondary colors on posters have been chosen. For example, Arrow (season 4) takes from the yellow sky to help differentiate it, while The Flash (season 1) takes from the light blue background. All of these have passed the accessibility and contrast guidelines set forth in WP:COLOR so that user is incorrect in saying they fail those. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:32, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * And to add, as far as I know, other language Wikipedia's basing articles off the English one don't need to copy what we do here. So if other colors work better for readers at the Hebrew site, I think it would be fine for you to adjust as necessary. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:36, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Saw the respond just now. Thank you for the detailed answer and have a nice day. The Gargoyle King (talk) 18:36, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Series overview
Why was the series overview and the sidebar taken out? Is there a reason? It made the article way more ergonomic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Audace1234 (talk • contribs)
 * It was vandalism. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:50, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Stargirl
Is Stargirl not part of the Arrowverse? The show technically premiered during Crisis and creators and cast have already openly speculated on potential crossovers in the future. Jmj713 (talk) 15:00, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Citing a reliable source is the best way to determine that. DonQuixote (talk) 15:41, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It is part of the new, larger Multiverse established in Crisis as with the other series shown (Titans, Doom Patrol, Swamp Thing), but since it does not exist on Earth-Prime and there have not been any sources stating it is part of the Arrowverse, no it is not. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Here are a few: 1, 2, 3, 4, and specifically about the potential crossovers: 1. In fact, Stargirl apparently was supposed to debut on The Flash and not just as a quick cameo: 1. Anyway, there are plenty of reliable sources talking about Stargirl as part of the Arrowverse already. Most importantly we have this  explicit quote from Geoff Johns: "We're thrilled to be a part of the Arrowverse" 1. Jmj713 (talk) 18:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Any comments anyone? Jmj713 (talk) 17:28, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I appreciate that you cited sources. Thanks for that. Apart from that, I'm going to leave the decision to whatever consensus forms. DonQuixote (talk) 17:32, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This is the Supergirl question all over again. After Crisis, per the creators of the series, the "Arrowverse" are those series originating on the CW and now existing on "Earth-Prime" - Arrow, Flash, Legends, Batwoman, Supergirl, and Black Lightning. Any other series seen in Crisis (Stargirl included), are part of the Arrowverse multiverse and are noted appropriately in the proper sections. We aren't saying Titans or Doom Patrol are now Arrowverse series. Remember, Stargirl is a DC Universe series first, and per more info you can find on the Stargirl page, having it air on CW came way later in the production cycle as well as throwing in the appearance in Crisis. That was never the original plan, and we most likely wouldn't be having this conversation if the series wasn't picked up by the CW to air after its DC Universe premiere. It would fall in the same category as Titans and Doom Patrol (which it should be in). And while many reliable sources use the term "Arrowverse" in their coverage, particularly because of its association with the CW, that doesn't not mean that it accurately supports it being an Arrowverse series (again the original Supergirl question all over again). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:01, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I get that and I'm not saying other shows that appeared in Crisis (like Doom Patrol or Birds or Prey) are part of the Arrowverse. But what do you make of that Geoff Johns quote? Jmj713 (talk) 00:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Again, look at all the additional information and context we have, Johns is clearly talking about being in the multiverse. Once again, this is exactly back when Supergirl first started and the creators said basically the same thing: We hope we can crossover, work with the other shows, etc. Same sentiments here, so at this time, no, Stargirl is not part of the Arrowverse and should be contained to just the Crisis crossover section as it is. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

No, it doesn't take place on prime earth post crisis. JoeLuke125 (talk) 10:00, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

The CWverse
According to WP:OFFICAL, when an official title is different from the most commonly recognizable one "It should always be provided early in an article's introduction, bolded at its first mention and, where appropriate, italicized" (for example the Mueller report article). The official name for the Arrowverse is the CWVerse, as per multiple official and independent     sources dating back to over a year ago. I have attempted to fix the article's introduction and make it more inline with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, only for it to be undone multiple times because I "fail[ed] to cite a reliable source". This excuse is patently false, my edits included a citation for a ScreenRant article which states "the Arrowverse is no longer and that it's now called The CWverse" and that because the most commonly used name is still Arrowverse "this will likely lead to a situation where the universe is called one thing officially, but another entirely by the majority of people who watch it" (luckily we have WP:OFFICAL in case of this exact scenario). ScreenRant is also not an unreliable source, it is cited multiple times already on this page and more importantly the very citation I was using was not even removed by DonQuixote when he undid my changes. 174.91.120.107 (talk) 00:19, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * My bad. I missed VoiceBox64 adding a source because JoeLuke125 removed the cited text. However, a reminder, the onus of providing a source is on the editor adding new information and doing so at the very start is recommended. Cheers. DonQuixote (talk) 00:56, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

The CWverse name isn't even new, it's not the first time they used it with this latest promo. And here's one article using it all the way back in May 2016. So yes, the start should absolutely read: "The CWverse, commonly known as the Arrowverse, is an American media franchise and a shared universe..." Jmj713 (talk) 17:56, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * That was used by the Inverse, not any of the producers or the CW. I'm adding in info about it now that I think could clear some things up. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:23, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Ok so based on what I added in here, the TVLine source helps clear up that "The CWverse" is more the name of the superhero programming block on the network, not the new name for the universe. It might beg the question of then examining the scope of this article (which currently is covering all of the series on "Earth-Prime" and the others aka Stargirl mentioned in the Multivese section) to see if that needs to be adjusted at all (I don't think it does). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:50, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you're splitting hairs with this programming block vs. franchise distinction. Yesterday's promo specifically refers to Earth-Prime and the Spectre's actions in Crisis when it says "From one hero, an entire universe was born... The CWVerse". You claim in the new subsection that Black Lightning "was not part of the universe" when last year's ComicCon trailer came out, but even if it wasn't public at the time, the people in charge clearly considered it to be in a similar situation to Supergirl on Earth-38 as they were already working on giving him a big role in Crisis and putting him in Earth-Prime going forward. Lastly, Stargirl isn't set on Earth-Prime, but many many people involved with the show have repeatedly referred to it as an Arrowverse show, so I don't think it's inclusion in the trailer is a deal breaker at all. To me, and to many independent sources (including Matt Webb Mitovich of TVLine who starts his article with "The CW seemingly is looking to rename the Arrowverse aka its slate of DC superhero shows", implying the franchise and the programming slate are synonymous), it's pretty clear that now the official name for the subject of this article is The CWVerse.174.91.120.107 (talk) 21:22, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * That's why I said, it may be beneficial to reexamine the scope of the article. The sources do make it pretty clear "The CWverse" is the programming block name, not the franchise name. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:48, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * No, the sources certainly don't make it clear "The CWverse" is the programming block name, not the franchise name. In fact every source you cited uses the two terms interchangably:
 * ScreenRant says "A new trailer for The CW's universe of DC superhero shows calls it the CWverse, as opposed to the Arrowverse, the long-established name for the popular block of programming";
 * TVLine says "The CW seemingly is looking to rename the Arrowverse aka its slate of DC superhero shows";
 * And SuperHeroHype says "In 2012, one year after ending Smallville, The CW revisited Oliver Queen with Arrow, a show that gave way to an entire shared universe of small-screen superheroes that eventually became known as the Arrowverse [...] Now, The CW has just offered proof that they’re about to retire the Arrowverse title for good [...] The new spot blatantly refers to this programming block as The CWverse."
 * The only time any of the articles ever make a distinction between the two terms is when TVLine speculates that The CW "have arrived at a different POV — possibly [...] because Season 2 of DC’s Stargirl will be a CW exclusive, and that show is not even an indirect spinoff, yet is, as I put it, “Arrowverse-adjacent.”". 174.91.120.107 (talk) 22:17, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, regardless if it's the official name or not, WP:COMMONNAME still applies, and that would be Arrowverse. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:49, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, WP:COMMONNAME still applies and the article name should absolutely not change, but WP:OFFICIAL applies too and it states that when an official title is different from the most commonly recognizable one "It should always be provided early in an article's introduction, bolded at its first mention and, where appropriate, italicized" (for example the Mueller report article). 174.91.120.107 (talk) 22:17, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * In fact, WP:OFFICIAL also states that even when an official name is disputed it "should also be [...] similarly introduced in the article introduction" 174.91.120.107 (talk) 22:35, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Introducing a new marketing slogan doesnt make it an official name. Spanneraol (talk) 23:33, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Can you provide a reliable source that this is just a marketing slogan? Because I've got over a dozen that this is an official name change. 174.91.120.107 (talk) 00:47, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * All of your sources are just different media outlets speculating.. nothing official from any of the showrunners. Spanneraol (talk) 01:05, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * From WP:PSTS, "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources". Any comments or tweets by showrunners should only be used if we can't find any independent sources. 174.91.120.107 (talk) 01:35, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Just a reminder, you also have to remember due weight and context. DonQuixote (talk) 02:31, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Frankly, I feel like WP:DUE only helps my case. There are now articles on ScreenRant, SuperHeroHype, TVLine, Batman-News, We Got This Covered, CBR, Den of Geek and more, all reporting that The CWverse is the network's name for this series of shows. This is the majority viewpoint among reliable sources and I have not found an article disputing this, yet we are giving undue weight to a small line buried in the TVLine article speculating that this might be because of a distinction between the franchise and the programming block. 174.91.120.107 (talk) 03:05, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Most of those websites are fan sites without any credibility.. i mean calling We Got This Covered a "reliable source" is just laughable.. and all of them are just speculating.. they don't actually quote any official sources. Spanneraol (talk) 03:51, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * TVLine is a trade, it doesn't get more credible than them in terms of TV reporting and the official source is the promos The CW have released over the past year. I'll point you back to WP:PSTS, Wikipedia articles should primarily be based on independent sources and their author's "analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources." In this case, Matt Mitovich's synthesis of the primary evidence provided by The CW is that "The CW seemingly is looking to rename the Arrowverse aka its slate of DC superhero shows." 174.91.120.107 (talk) 04:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * All of the reliable sources on the promo are currently in the section I created, and I was also able to find articles from CBR and Den of Geek that mentioned the promo but had no commentary that the ones in article currently presented. As stated, we have yet to hear how the producers/showrunners call this. Given it's the network using this, it adds more precedent to the fact that it is a marketing/programming block name, which the sources discuss (in addition to speculating it's a new name for the universe). We cover both of these, but do not give the great weight you are trying to that it is the end all be all new universe name. - 15:04, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry but what's the exact distinction between "programming block" and franchise? In other words, what distinction do you draw between Arrowverse and CWverse. I mean in real-world terms, not Earth-Prime. Jmj713 (talk) 15:21, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Perfect Strangers and its spin-off Family Matters constitute a franchise. TGIF is a programming block that contained both plus others. That could be the same with Arrowverse and CWverse. We probably need more sources to clarify this. DonQuixote (talk) 15:29, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * But TGIF were all completely separate shows. The 2019 CW promo clearly states "1 Universe" meaning all the shows shown are part of the same universe. Jmj713 (talk) 15:39, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, what said is correct. Or in terms of everything here, the "programming block" for 2020-2021 would be Swamp Thing, Flash, Supergirl, Legends, Black Lightning, Batwoman, Stargirl, and Superman & Lois, but the "franchise" is Flash, Supergirl, Legends, Black Lightning, Batwoman, and Superman & Lois. Or looking back to say 2019 when the first promo released, the "block" would have been Arrow, Flash, Supergirl, Legends, Batwoman, and Black Lightning, but the "franchise" was all but Black Lightning. They are "1 Universe" of DC shows, which per the recent DC FanDome shows they are fully embracing the multiverse, but that doesn't mean they are all part of the same franchise. I also agree that more sources/confirmation is needed to specifically know how we should put the term in the lead, if at all, and clarify that information in the "Name" section, which covers it both as the new name for the franchise, or simply the marking/programming block name. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:42, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know, it sounds like you're reaching and inventing distinctions that aren't there. To me the franchise are the DC shows shown on the CW and promoted by the network together. Swamp Thing isn't promoted by the CW as the rest of the DC shows. The network is explicitly marketing the franchise we know as the Arrowverve as the CWverse and they include Stargirl. This is not up for debate. What seems to be up for debate is whether it's up to the network to decide what is and isn't part of their universe, but I would say it's only up to the network to decide that. Jmj713 (talk) 17:59, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree that calling all the DC superhero shows a "programming block" is a stretch at best. Block programming refers to a set of shows running back to back to hold on to the audience, as was the case with ABC's TGIF or NBC's Must See TV. I can't think of an instance where it applies to thematically similar shows stretching across different nights. It seems pretty clear that The CW is evolving the name of the property with the ending of Arrow and the post-Crisis shakeup, so it makes sense to include The CWverse in the led (even if the article title remains Arrowverse for now). Carter (talk) 18:11, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Here's an idea that might help resolve this dispute, how about we follow the example of Birds of Prey (2020 film) and add "Also known as The CWverse" in a footnote in the lead. Similar to the situation here, BoP was renamed post-debut by the studio without any acknowledgement or recognition by the Director or any other creatives. By using "Also known as" instead of "Officially called" we recognize the disputed nature of the change by some editors here, and by hiding it away in a footnote we can respect WP:OFFICIAL by introducing the disputably official name in the introduction, without giving it an undue placement. 70.53.115.58 (talk) 18:14, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree, but I would go with a more encyclopedic version I posted above: "The CWverse, commonly known as the Arrowverse...". There's nothing undue about using the official name. It's also a fairly commonly used unofficial term. You can see it here used from 2016 to 2019. Comparing with the other unofficial names, it seems that Flarrowverse was fairly popular when it was just Arrow and The Flash, and Berlantiverse was pretty popular around the same time. But more recently it's mainly been CWverse. Of course all this pales in comparison with Arrowverse, and that's what the article title should remain. But we should absolutely acknowledge the official name. Jmj713 (talk) 18:39, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with 's suggested wording and placement. It makes no sense to hide CWverse in a footnote. Carter (talk) 19:17, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I disagree. I still feel we need more context and sources to clarify what exactly this is in relation to the franchise. We have many secondary sources assuming it's the new name, but that just that, an assumption. I'm still of the stance that we keep the info as presented in the "Name" section and avoid including anything in the lead until it is more clear what this name is. We are not doing readers any disservice at this time by excluding it from the lead. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:43, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

The Name section isn't completely accurate, as the CW had a promo in 2019 with the name CWvwerse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtKwJQVmEuQ Jmj713 (talk) 00:31, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Needs to name CWverse, it's more accurate and used for the network.OscarFercho (talk) 01:00, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * That's in there. TVLine mentioned it and is covered in the section. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:04, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I would agree with Favre1fan93 that we need to wait for more context before we change the name. Clearly, The CW are attempting to market the shows together under the banner of The CWVerse, but that does not automatically make that the franchise name for the shows specifically covered by the Arrowverse moniker. We need more input from those directly involved in the various shows production, which will more than likely come when promotion for new seasons begins. Until then, we should leave the article as it currently stands. AutumnKing (talk) 15:30, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

You're not helping, Oliver! Jmj713 (talk) 18:49, 5 September 2020 (UTC)


 * FWIW, the DC Fandome this weekend (which was filmed back in July) had a panel called "Crisis on Infinite Earths: Behind the Scenes of the Arrowverse Crossover panel" so that's a pretty good indicator that name is still used for the franchise. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:13, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

See the above discussion. Moving again may be considered edit-warring and be reported. -- / Alex /21  23:57, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Taskforce
Would it be worth creating a WikiProject Television Taskforce for the Arrowverse articles? -- / Alex /21  03:49, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's any harm to it. I'd be interested/involved. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 13:48, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I've created the bare bones at WikiProject Television/Arrowverse task force, now it needs expanding and formatting into a full task force. -- / Alex /21  03:23, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

List of Arrowverse episodes
Now, hopefully, for something a little less controversial. The current Lists of Arrowverse episodes is not very helpful, it's basically a disambiguation page. I was thinking it would be much better to redesign this to be an actual list of episodes for all Arrowverse shows, split by television seasons. So it would list all episodes in airdate order for all series in the franchise, split by the television season, similar to something like this. Since this is based strictly on airdates of an interconnected franchise, I don't believe this would fall into any kind of OR. Thoughts? Jmj713 (talk) 17:02, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Per the article's title being a "Lists of", it's essentially a "list of lists", so how it is formatted now as a quasi-disambiguation page is correct. We definitely should not alter it to what you suggested. - Favre1fan93 (talk)
 * Yes, we'd move it to List of Arrowverse episodes. Jmj713 (talk) 18:28, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Strongly disagree, that's just complete funcruft and trivial. Lists of Arrowverse episodes is helpful in that it was indeed designed to be a disambiguation page, same format as Lists of Star Trek episodes and other "Lists" articles. It may not be OR, but what encyclopedic value does this add? -- / Alex /21  01:32, 26 September 2020 (UTC)