Talk:Arrowverse/Archive 5

Crossovers table
Following AlexTheWhovian's suggestion to have a discussion about the layout of the crossover table, here is a draft table that I've created based on the current table and using a few elements from Chicago (franchise). This new table adds the crossover titles and displays the information in an easier to understand format. - Brojam (talk) 18:29, 13 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm fine with this. The only thing is, the title of the crossover should not be in bold. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:04, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Though, I would still support having the description on a separate row like ShortSummary, since it "squishes" the content too muc in the table with more columns. Alex&#124;The&#124;Whovian ? 00:02, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I might actually prefer Alex's suggestion more, having the summary be a separate row under the series and title columns, with the TV season and ref columns rowspaning. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 05:00, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree it does seem a bit squished having the description on the side, but by having it under on a separate row, it becomes very confusing (unless we make the border between each crossover a bit bigger sorta like the episode table). Do we even need a description? Since they will all have separate article pages, I'm not sure why we necessarly need to have it? Also, why is it TV season, shouldn't it be the dates that the episodes of the crossovers aired? - Brojam (talk) 17:58, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Here is a markup of Alex's suggestion. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:16, 14 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Actually, a few slight adjustments, per below. Left-align the summaries, remove the bolds of the crossover titles, keep the "Season X, Episode X" format, modify the widths. Thoughts? Also, the first column should remain as the TV seasons; the specific dates are unnecessary for a general table that summarizies the episodes. (I also hid the references/notes in all the tables to remove the annoying references preview.) Alex&#124;The&#124;Whovian ? 06:03, 15 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I just have some slight adjustments that I'd make:


 * Like I said in the article, listing what part of the crossover each episode is, is just redundant, as they are all already in order. If that becomes a problem in the future then we could change this, but we don't need to prepare for the future like that when it is so easy to make the adjustment when the need arises. - adamstom97 (talk) 09:26, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Crossover title in the second column does look better. However, it will become a problem in the future, with Legends of Tomorrow now moving to the same night as The Flash, so it's better to accommodate for this now, while the discussion is still in place, so that we don't need to worry about it. Even just a small (1), (2), etc. could be used, so that it doesn't force more lines. Alex&#124;The&#124;Whovian ? 09:33, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Something less obtrusive like that would probably be fine, I just don't want to make a mess of it unnecessarily. This table is already reasonably complex (hence the extended discussion, trying to get it right). - adamstom97 (talk) 09:45, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * So, we can agree on this? Alex&#124;The&#124;Whovian ? 09:57, 15 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, this looks good. Much better moving the crossover title to the second column. Although, Legends of Tomorrow will most likely move again next year (probably on the same night as Arrow), I still find it important to indicate the parts of the crossover. - Brojam (talk) 15:58, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm also fine with the most recent version. Somewhere we should just make a note along the lines of "The number in parenthesis next to the episode titles indicate which part of the crossover it is." since we are removing "part" there. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:57, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Good point. - Brojam (talk) 03:26, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

 List indicator(s)
 * A dark grey cell indicates the series was not apart of the crossover event.
 * The number in parenthesis next to the episode titles indicate which part of the crossover it is.
 * I know all of the episode titles for this year's crossover were "Invasion!" but is the crossover title not "Heroes vs. Aliens" which is what was in the initial promos? -- Ice (talk) 03:53, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes and No. Check the sources used in the crossover's article; "Invasion!" was the name of the crossover, as mentioned by the showrunners, and "Heroes v Aliens" is listed as "Also known as" in the infobox. And since we all agree on the layout of the table, I'll implement it in the article. Alex&#124;The&#124;Whovian ? 07:46, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Crossover Inclusions
At what point do we include or not include crossovers into the table? The musical crossover has been included, which will be the tail-end of Supergirl (same as "Invasion!"), then the one episode of The Flash, making the crossover itself only one episode. Then there is "Worlds Finest", another Supergirl and The Flash crossover, that isn't included in the table - in these two examples, the two crossovers are basically the same format: the two characters appear in the same one episode, one of which is crossing over to the other series. Is there a reason for the inclusion of one, and not the other? Alex&#124;The&#124;Whovian ? 14:56, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Well at the time, it was assumed that the musical crossover would be across both. But now that we know it will mainly only be on The Flash, perhaps just some prose would be acceptable, along with prose for "Worlds Finest". - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:50, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Constantine as part of the Arrowverse (plus animated series)
The CW has ordered an animated CW-Seed Constantine series, which will be a continuation of the NBC show. It'll be produced by Greg Berlanti and will star Matt Ryan. Several sources are now officially claiming it's part of the Arrowverse (although I would argue it's pretty undeniable at this point):http://ew.com/tv/2017/01/08/the-cw-revives-constantine-animated-series/, http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/constantine-animated-series-at-cw-seed-961873, http://collider.com/constantine-cw-seed/Oraklebat (talk) 17:29, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * If it's CW-related and Berlanti produced, it is definitely Arrowverse related. On an unrelated note, I'd like to imagine the consequences of John realising that Manny is the leader of the Brujeria.  Kailash29792 (talk)  17:45, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The animated series is part of the Arrowverse for sure, the live-action is still unknown. The sources just say that Constantine is returning, that necessarily that it is a direct continuation of the live action version. It is very possible, and I am now tending to believe as such, but that would be WP:OR at this time. So TLDR, the animated series can be added, the rest should stay as indicated until more clarification is revealed. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:13, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * If the animated series isn't a continuation of the live-action series (even if it is set in the Arrowverse and has Matt Ryan returning), I might believe that there are two John Constantines, one of them being from a different Earth stranded in the Arrowverse. Kailash29792 (talk)  03:18, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * A flag of caution, in-universe arguments don't hold up well against real-world arguments. All we know at the moment is that the 2014 series isn't part of the Arrowverse but the 2017+ series (animated and/or live action) will be--so arguments like "one of them being from a different Earth", etc. are misguided. DonQuixote (talk) 03:57, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I beg your pardon? It was confirmed by the producers that the Constantine appearing on the Arrow episode "Haunted" was the same one from the NBC series. So if the upcoming animated series is part of the Arrowverse but not the NBC series, it can only mean that there have been two Constantines. Kailash29792 (talk)  04:35, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * it can only mean that there have been two Constantines.
 * That's a logical fallacy and original research as well. The Arrowverse is a collection of shows. They can put whatever character they want into the shows--even characters from other unrelated shows. If the producers and writers say that Constatine from an unrelated show is the same Constantine in the future Arrowverse show, then that's their prerogative, so there's no "it can only mean that" about it. DonQuixote (talk) 05:35, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Why do people continue to A) deny that NBC's Constantine was directly retroactively incorporated into the Arrowverse's shared reality, B) treat Supergirl as if it's some separate thing even though it's been explicitly stated that the term "Arrowverse" refers to the entirety of the shared reality that spun off of Arrow, including its internal Multiverse, and C) forget to include the 1990s Flash television series as being explicitly part of the Arrowverse's internal Multiverse and therefore part of the broader shared Arrowverse reality?DigificWriter (talk) 01:41, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Because Wikipedia is a general encyclopaedia and is written from a real-world perspective. That being said, A) real-world history trumps in-universe interpretation, B) sources contradict that, and C) real-world history trumps in-universe interpretation. DonQuixote (talk) 02:02, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
 * A) How are statements from Wendy Mericle and Marc Guggenheim (both of whom unequivocally said that Matt Ryan's appearance on Arrow retroactively connected that series and NBC's Constantine to each other) not "real-world perspective"? B) Greg Berlanti specifically said that the term "Arrowverse" is officially used to encompass the entirety of the Multiversal reality that they've established/developed, including Supergirl (and the 1990s Flash series, which, as per "Welcome to Earth-2" also exists as part of the Arrowverse's official internal Multiverse); C) The very fact that The Flash used actual footage from the 1990s series establishes a direct connection between the two series (beyond the aforementioned fact that the '90s series exists as part of the franchise's internal Multiverse), as does the fact that we've now seen Amanda Pays, Alex Desert, and Vito D'Ambrosio all reprise their Flash '90s characters on the new series, which, again, has been explicitly clarified by Greg Berlanti to be covered, officially, by the term "Arrowverse". At this point, refusing to acknowledge these facts is just being selective with the truth.DigificWriter (talk) 03:14, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
 * A) Please cite your source as the sources in this article say nothing like that. B) Please cite your source as the sources in this article say nothing like that. C) They're called easter eggs and fan service. And the rest what you mention is original research and synthesis--that is, your personal interpretation of fictional works.
 * And Wikipedia is about verifiability not truth. If you can cite your sources, then we can discuss them, otherwise they're just your opinions and interpretations. DonQuixote (talk) 03:25, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) The sources in this article do in fact confirm Guggenheim and Mericle explicitly stating that Matt Ryan's appearance on Arrow linked it and NBC's Constantine, as both producers confirmed that Matt Ryan was in fact playing the same character as seen on the NBC series; 2) I cannot find a source now, but I do know that Greg Berlanti used the term "Arrowverse" to encompass the entirety of the shared multiversal reality that's been created across Arrow, The Flash, Legends, and Supergirl in an interview; 3) Using actual footage of John Wesley Shipp to establish that the world of the '90s Flash series exists as part of the internal multiverse that's been created for Arrow, Flash, etc. does not fit the definition of either the term "Easter Egg" or "Fanservice", nor does using actual footage of Mark Hamill as The Trickster to establish concrete fictional history for the "Earth-1" version of that character. Bringing Pays, Desert, and D'Ambrosio back to play the exact same characters they played on the '90s series also doesn't fit the definition of either of those words. Including a Green Lantern Power Battery in an episode of Arrow is an Easter Egg, and bringing in actors like Dean Cain, Teri Hatcher, and Laura Vandervoort to play brand-new characters on Supergirl is "Fanservice". Wikipedia can continue to ignore these facts, but it lessens its credibility as an actual source of information.DigificWriter (talk) 03:51, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) The sources in this article do in fact confirm Guggenheim and Mericle explicitly stating that Matt Ryan's appearance on Arrow linked it and NBC's Constantine, as both producers confirmed that Matt Ryan was in fact playing the same character as seen on the NBC series;
 * No, that's synthesis. A character crossing over to another show doesn't make it part of the Arrowverse--it just makes it a crossover. See for an example of unrelated shows crossing over.
 * 2) From this article Kreisberg also confirmed that, despite the series moving to The CW, the title character's universe would not be integrated into the Arrowverse.
 * 3) Using actual footage of John Wesley Shipp to establish that the world of the '90s Flash series exists as part of the internal multiverse that's been created for Arrow, Flash, etc. does not fit the definition of either the term "Easter Egg" or "Fanservice"
 * That's your opinion. From WhatCulture: The Flash Season 2: 28 Easter Eggs & References You Might've Missed/18. The Portal To Earth-2
 * Wikipedia can continue to ignore these facts, but it lessens its credibility as an actual source of information.
 * Again, see WP:TRUTH. DonQuixote (talk) 04:09, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

, I will support your theory of "Arrowverse" meaning a multiverse (rather than just Earth-1) if you provide us with primary sources (i.e. a quote from Berlanti or his team). As for Ryan's Constantine, the upcoming animated series is indeed set in the Arrowverse, but not confirmed to be a continuation of the NBC live-action series. Though Berlanti and co may have stated that the Constantine seen on "Haunted" is the same one from the NBC series in terms of continuity, this could be retconned once the animated series is confirmed to not continue the NBC series. Kailash29792 (talk) 09:02, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

LoT Season 3 Star
If this is indeed true, it's going to open up a whole new bag of worms concerning related/connected/multiverse shows. --  Alex TW 09:59, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * You know today is April Fool's Day and Kryptonsite NEVER posts real news on April 1. :)   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  13:31, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I find myself fooled, then! But the link to the interview with Rotten Tomatoes appears valid, so someone is coming. --  Alex TW 20:20, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The idea is true, because that was announced like 2 or 3 days ago. Everything else that they talk about is a joke. They used to do this religiously when Smallville was on the air. It was good reads and sometimes their jokes turned out to be true. Still a joke.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  21:26, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

CW Multiverse
That is the name this DC Comics site has used to refer to the otherwise unnamed multiverse comprising of Arrow, Flash, Legends, Vixen and Supergirl, albeit informally. Is it worth using? But first of all, is it really the official DC Comics website? -- Kailash29792   (talk)  06:53, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
 * It looks like the official DC Entertainment website, but this particularly article is a blog post tagged "Fan News", so I'm not sure how reliable it is. It also doesn't use the term Arrowverse, which we have established is the official term for the specific universe. I am also hesitant to use a term like "CW Multiverse" because everything we have so far indicates that projects not on the CW are part of the same multiverse—we have been told, if not shown so far, that the DCEU is in the same multiverse as the Arrowverse, as is Powerless (referred to as "Earth-P" by its EP). See here. - adamstom97 (talk) 09:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)