Talk:Arrowverse/Archive 9

Moving the Multiverse section further up the article
I would like to open a discussion to move the Multiverse section further up in the article. I tested a WP:BOLD edit but it appears to be more constructive to open a discussion instead.

I would argue that the multiverse concept is a foundation stone of the Arrowverse franchise, most notably in its separation of Supergirl from Earth-1, but also in the other significant Earths that the franchise has encountered more than once (Earth-2, Earth-3, Earth-19, Earth-X). Producer Geoff Johns is cited in the Development section that way back in October 2014 he said what makes the Arrowverse fundamentally different from franchises such as the MCU is the multiverse concept that they would soon be introducing.

Also, there are a number of mentions of the multiverse through the article, but the article provides no prior context for the concept until the Multiverse section footnoted at the end of the article. My original thoughts were to have it as a sub-section in the Development section, but does anybody have other ideas as for a better location? I don't believe that the multiverse concept should be reduced to a footnote when one of the franchise's main series (Supergirl) itself straddles the multiverse. Maybe we could integrate it as a sub-section within the Crossovers section (maybe renamed "Multiverse and crossovers")? – Nick Mitchell 98 talk 12:31, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Edit: Pinging regular contributors. – Nick Mitchell 98 talk 02:28, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * "Soon be introducing". That indicates that the Arrowverse was not initially created with the multiverse in mind, and thus, it shouldn't be listed so early in the article under development, and certainly not before the table of series themselves. Having a "Multiverse and crossovers" section, and then "Multiverse" and "Crossovers" subsections would be redundant; perhaps merge them and rename the section to "Expanded setting"? -- / Alex /21  02:37, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I think "Expanded setting" sounds a bit too similar to "expanded media" which would be a more accurate term for off-screen media such as novels and comics. But I like your thought pattern, something along those lines would definitely work. – Nick Mitchell 98 talk 10:41, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm going to merge the sections as discussed under either "Expanded setting" or "Franchise setting" (i.e. "the setting of the franchise") if that's acceptable and there are no additional suggestions? – Nick Mitchell 98 talk 03:17, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Edit: Done. – Nick Mitchell 98 talk 12:34, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Recurring cast - R
A lot of the cells of the Recurring Cast table have a superscript R in them, but the key does not explain what this means. -mattbuck (Talk) 11:17, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I fixed it... just added "R" as a parameters to the template that generates the legend. —Joeyconnick (talk) 01:22, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

The Flash (1990)
It would seem that after the crossover that the 90s Flash show should at least be included with Constantine under the crossover section, (though you could now argue that it is as much an "arrowverse" show as Supergirl is). Does anyone object to it being included with Constantine? Jedi Master Bra&#39;tac (talk) 10:53, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * This is an excellent question the likes of, and  may have the answer to. Or has it been answered? -- Kailash29792  (talk)  16:24, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
 * You would need to show that reliable sources commonly and consistently consider the 90s Flash a part of the Arrowverse. DonQuixote (talk) 17:38, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Don is correct. Just because JWS was wearing the costume from the 90s doesn't automatically make that show part of this universe. The difference with Constantine is that they've said in the past that it's the same character, his show just wasn't connected to the universe.  That has more to do with legality than anything.  We have to be careful not to confuse fan service with actual connection.  If they come out and say it is part of the multiverse,  then it would go down with Constantine.    BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  03:46, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Also then, shouldn't The Flash (1990) be removed from the infobox? - Brojam (talk) 08:42, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, I would believe so. We don't know at this time that it's the 90s universe of the Flash, not simply fan service by putting JWS in that suit.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  13:23, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Creators
Should the creators of each individual show be included in the infobox as creators of the Arrowverse? Personally, I feel that we should include the creators of Arrow because they're the ones that created the universe and the others just expanded on it. JDDJS ( talk to me  •  see what I've done ) 02:49, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Crossovers sections
The crossover entry in the infobox should only be for series that have crossed over multiple times, such as Constantine (in Arrow then Legends) and The Flash (1990) (in The Flash then Elseworlds). If we add every series that's going to crossover in Crisis on Infinite Earths, then the list is going to get very large. Keep it simple.

Same goes for the Crisis on Infinite Earths entry in the crossovers table; we don't need to list every crossing-over series and every returning cast member. Keep that for the Crisis on Infinite Earths article - it's bound to start filming soon, so the article will be moved to the mainspace really soon. For now, keep it to Draft:Crisis on Infinite Earths (Arrowverse). -- / Alex /21  01:51, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Superman Returns
Could someone edit Superman Return’s page to show that it has a planned crossover with the arrowverse — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:42:C300:48E0:7111:5B8A:723D:E3D (talk) 20:09, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The ambiguity as to whether it’s really the Earth of I/II/Returns advanced so far, or just a Kingdom Come Earth with Routh as Superman is what’s holding up such addition--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 21:42, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Please provide a source that backs up your requested edits. -- / Alex /21  00:57, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Untitled Arrow Spin-off
and i would like to question how it is to soon to list this show? i get things in development don't necessarily make it to series and that's why i put it under an In development section on the table and as this page is all about the arrowverse and its history it should be listed here and if the show doesn't make it to series it should be moved to an un-produced section or something similar that's why i don't think its to soon to list. thoughts? (TheMBProject (talk) 19:07, 26 September 2019 (UTC))
 * When the series itself goes into production. See Assignment: Earth where even a back-door pilot didn't lead into a series proper. DonQuixote (talk) 19:18, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * sorry i'm not fully following with this can you be a little more specific?(TheMBProject (talk) 20:28, 26 September 2019 (UTC))
 * When they start producing a season of the series because even a back-door pilot (such as the Star Trek episode above or the handful of back-door pilots in Highlander: The Series (season 6)) doesn't guarantee the production of a series. DonQuixote (talk) 20:36, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * ok but that doesn't makes sense, as of right now the show is in development series order or not there is a pilot airing as part of arrow's final season and should be listed as in development, if a series is ordered it would still be in development like it is right now and if it becomes a series that airs move it under ongoing series and if it doesn't move it to a un-produced series section.(TheMBProject (talk) 20:57, 26 September 2019 (UTC))
 * Dude, seriously. Even if it's in development, it won't necessarily develop into a series (see the above examples). When they actually start production of season 1, then it'll be the proper time. It's not that hard to understand. See also Wonder Woman (2011 TV pilot). DonQuixote (talk) 21:02, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Also see List of television series canceled before airing an episode. DonQuixote (talk) 21:07, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * and how hard are the words in development and un-produced to understand? in development does not mean series ordered.(TheMBProject (talk) 21:07, 26 September 2019 (UTC))
 * That's actually the point. Un-produced series are not noteworthy in-and-of-themselves. DonQuixote (talk) 21:12, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * but it is when you are covering the history of the arrowverse(TheMBProject (talk) 21:22, 26 September 2019 (UTC))
 * Unless it pans out into a series, no--otherwise it's just an episode of Arrow. DonQuixote (talk) 21:29, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Also, see WP:NORUSH. We can easily wait a year or two without jumping the gun. DonQuixote (talk) 21:39, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Im sorry but yes it is even things like The Office (American TV series) list and talk about un produced spin offs like the The Farm (The Office) it is worth listing the arrow spin off as in development and moving it to an un produced section if nothing happens with it as the episode and potential show are part of the arrowverse and its history. a back door pilot does mean that a show is in development if it goes somewhere or not. (TheMBProject (talk) 21:41, 26 September 2019 (UTC))
 * But if they don’t pan out there’s no way for the hypothetical article to grow and would just be a stub with nothing really substantial to justify the article’s existence--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 21:44, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * why would you need to spin it out in to its own article if it doesn't become a show you would have a section here on the arrowvesre and you would have the episode article from arrow (TheMBProject (talk) 21:47, 26 September 2019 (UTC))
 * It's already mentioned in this article and in Arrow (TV series). There's no need to put it in a table on equal footing with actually produced spin-offs. DonQuixote (talk) 22:41, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Has it been ordered to series yet? No? There's your answer. -- / Alex /21  00:28, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
 * What part of series order does not equal in development do you people not understand?(TheMBProject (talk) 02:46, 27 September 2019 (UTC))
 * It's already listed in the Development section, and a backdoor pilot does not equate to a series in development. What do you not understand about that? -- / Alex /21  02:50, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

For The Record
Casting Gags, Mythology Gags, and Prop Recycling are tropes that do not count toward official crossovers. Saying Smallville has already crossed over with the Arrowverse because they put the Green Arrow suit on Earth-90, the Earth of a completely different preceding show, does not make it so--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 06:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Completely agreed. No reliable source confirms that the Green Arrow suit on Earth-90 is or was part of the Smallville universe, and even if it was, it was such a brief cameo that it barely counts as a crossover. -- / Alex /21  06:38, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * And as I stated in my edit summary and implied with the trope invocations here, it’s already been shown that elements can be exactly identical between two different Earths, though the circumstances of the two fulfilled examples (The Trickster and the Kent Farm) were very different, the former unintentional and the latter very intentional.--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 06:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Black Lightning
Since Black Lightning has appears in CW's Arrowverse promos and will cross over during Crisis, the only ongoing DC show to do so, doesn't that mean it's part of the Arrowverse? I suppose we'll know for sure once the crossover airs, but I think it is. Jmj713 (talk) 16:22, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 * You would need to show reliable sources commonly and consistently referring to Black Lightning as part of the franchise rather than just being part of the crossover (see The Simpsons and Family Guy where different franchises on the same network have had a crossover). DonQuixote (talk) 16:31, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 * It could just mean that a version of the Pierce family appears but not necessarily the same family from the television series. It's a multiple universe crossover after all. Esuka (talk) 22:06, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Probably the safest thing to do is wait until after Crisis airs when sources should give us a more difinitive answer. Supergirl wasn't added to the official list of shows (was previously listed in the Crossovers section) until Dec 2017/Jan 2018 despite having crossed over multiple times before that point. Once Crisis airs we should hopefully have a clearer view of the Arrowverse-proper versus the rest of the multiverse. – Nick Mitchell 98 talk 01:33, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Deathstroke: Knights & Dragons
The Den of Geek source clearly states, concerning Deathstroke: Knights and Dragons, you should also expect to see airings of existing CW Seed content, which consists of animated Arrowverse offerings like the recently-announced Deathstroke: Knights and Dragons. Yes, it does also refer to Constantine: City of Demons, which was initially considered an Arrowverse property and was thus listed as such, until later sources explicitly stated that it wasn't an Arrowverse property and was thus removed as such. Here, we have a source that states that Deathstroke: Knights and Dragons is currently considered an Arrowverse property and is thus listed as such. Until you have a source explicitly stating that it isn't an Arrowverse property, the series is allowed to be listed here, as it is reliably sourced. Please partake in this discussion and gain a consensus for its removal if you disagree with it, instead of edit-warring over the content. -- / Alex /21  04:31, 10 September 2019 (UTC)


 * I see and totally get where are you coming from and I hope you can see where I'm coming from, in the den of geeks article in the same sentence that lists Deathstroke as part of the arrowverse it lists Constantine city of demons as part of the arrowverse which to me makes the article not credible as confirming the Deathstroke as part of the arrowverse, now if it said Constantine city of demons and arrowverse offerings like Deathstroke,vixen,the Ray I would take it more as a confirmation that Deathstroke is part of the arrowverse, as for now I don't think that the Deathstroke show should be listed as part of the arrowverse until something comes out saying that it's 100% part of the arrowverse. (TheMBProject (talk) 13:14, 10 September 2019 (UTC))
 * Thank you for responding here instead of reverting again. The Den of Geek source does indeed list Constantine: City of Demons, and it's still not wrong - Constantine: City of Demons was previously an Arrowverse property, and thus the Den of Geek source is right in listing it. It may fail to say that it is no longer considered an Arrowverse property, but that does not make it any less reliable. Den of Geek is used as a source in over 2,600 articles, so it's clear that the site remains a reliable source. -- / Alex /21  13:33, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * ya no problem I'm always down to try and work things out. I just want to make it clear that I'm not saying den of geeks isn't a reliable source just this article,and the reason I say this is that yes you are correct that Constantine city of demons was originally intended to be a arrowverse property but it came out in 2018 a has not been part of the arrowverse for over a year and with a little Googleing it not hard to see that and so it seems like the media thinks that every animated dc property on cw seed or coming to cw seed is part of the arrowverse and that's why I don't think that this article is a good place to list Deathstroke as part of the arrowverse from. I think it would be better to wait for a statement from someone who is tied to the arrowverse then a journalist writing an article about the announcement of a new dc cw seed show and so I don't think that Deathstroke should be listed until something like this pops up, and by all means I would love to see this as part of the arrowverse but at this point I just don't think it should be listed. (TheMBProject (talk) 14:56, 10 September 2019 (UTC))
 * I've read your reply, but "it seems like" is not a reliable source, it's original research and personal observation; I don't see anything backing up that statement. If we waited for someone "official" to comment on anything, we would be relying primarily on primary sources, which is not recommended on Wikipedia. We use secondary sources all the time. This article would be bare and barren if it only consisted of statements from someone tied to the Arrowverse. Should we remove the whole "Crisis on Infinite Earths" section, based on that thought? You'll need to gain a consensus from multiple editors to work the article that way. Until then, the content remains, as the content and the sources have not been disputed since their inclusion. -- / Alex /21  15:14, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * And I get that but not every dc property on cw is part of the arrowverse. Constantine city of demons and Black lightning now black lightning might be joining in the crossover but are both dc properties on cw that at this time aren't part of the arrowverse. which shows not every dc property is part of the arrowverse. As for what you said about crisis multiple sites have reported on the same thing make that information more legit where den of geeks is the only place I can find that reports that Deathstroke is part of the arrowverse, as well in the same line they say Deathstroke is part of the arrowverse they give false info on Constantine city of demons being part of the arrowverse other articles I have read even say the there is no mention of if Deathstroke is part of the arrowverse. And yes I get when I say "seems like" isn't reliable but that's you and me talking but if you sit down and do the research den of geeks is the outlier and not the majority which makes the den of geeks article not a reliable source.(TheMBProject (talk) 17:18, 10 September 2019 (UTC))
 * Thank you for your opinion, but I am arguing the same point back and forth and have presented my points; I'd rather not keep repeating them to you. Please gain a wider consensus for its removal. Thank you. -- / Alex /21  23:29, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * And i thank you for your opinion but i ask you to please do you research and see that the den of geeks article is the only one that lists deathstroke as part of the arrowverse (TheMBProject (talk) 02:29, 13 September 2019 (UTC))
 * And that is your opinion. Gain a consensus for it. -- / Alex /21  02:33, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Personally, I do agree with TheMBProject. Looking at the sources, we have Den of Geek mentioning Deathstroke in the same breath as Constantine as part of the larger franchise, but right next to it is Screenrant going out of its way to explain how it's not. They point out how different this iteration of the character is from the one seen in Arrow in regards to how it would contradict established canon, and even uses the phrase "audiences can expect to meet a totally new Slade in Deathstroke: Knights & Dragons." Babspage (talk) 19:27, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
 * you tell me to Gain a consensus here on this talk page it is more then just me yet you still undo my edit and tell me to Gain a consensus what more do you want.(TheMBProject (talk) 02:44, 27 September 2019 (UTC))
 * And yet, no other editor of the hundreds of editors who have edited this article have had an issue with it or tried to remove it. Just you. So, no, you have far from a consensus, so stop your edit-warring. -- / Alex /21  02:52, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
 * its almost like there are big editors like you who throw your weight around see one thing that proves your point and anything that goes against your point you undo and threaten people with a ban from editing and people don't want to deal with that. References for deathstroke one says "audiences can expect to meet a totally new Slade in ''Deathstroke: Knights & Dragons and the other has miss information and if you look at other web pages no one other then den of geeks says its part of the arrowverse so yes i have a problem with deathstroke being listed here.(TheMBProject (talk) 03:07, 27 September 2019 (UTC))
 * Please remain civil during discussions; attacking editors because you disagree with them may result in them not wanting to discuss with you further. You are the only editor that has had an issue with the content and removed it, that's why you need to gain a firm consensus for its removal, instead of edit-warring, which was not responded with with a "threat", you were notified that you are actually violation Wikipedia policy. The phrase "totally new Slade" does not indicate in what way he will be new; can you point me to where it says he will be portrayed by a different actor, or set in a different timeline, or a source that specifically says it's not an Arrowverse series? I can and have provided a source that it does. All I see on your end is your own personal speculation and your own personal view on the sources provided. -- / Alex /21  03:10, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
 * sciencefiction.com does miss report Constantine CoD as part of the arrowverse which you have defended den of geeks for. but also report "The previous shows were part of the same continuity as the “Arrowverse” live-action, but there was no mention as to whether ‘Deathstroke’ would be." (TheMBProject (talk) 03:31, 27 September 2019 (UTC))

So, it's alright for your source to "misreport" information, but when the source that I provide apparently does the same, it's not acceptable and therefore cannot be used? I quote you: it lists Constantine city of demons as part of the arrowverse which to me makes the article not credible. I recommend that you look at your double standards here. Besides, the source you have provided was reported on May 16; the Den of Geek source was reported on July 30, hence providing more up-to-date information and thus making the source you have provided out-of-date and obsolete. Please provide a recent source that explicitly states that it is not part of the Arrowverse, not one that states that there was "no mention". -- / Alex /21  03:47, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
 * hey im just playing by your rules and i also pointed it out instead of trying to pull one over on you. the den of geeks article is more recent yes but doesn't offer any new info on deathstroke that other web sites don't, other then the word arrowvesre. show me another web site that claims its part of the arrowverse only 1 out of 3 of the References on this page claim its part of the arrowverse.(TheMBProject (talk) 05:03, 27 September 2019 (UTC))
 * No, you're not. You're setting standards for other editors, and then going back on them yourself. Don't use the source if you don't think it's reliable, then, if you're not "trying to pull one over". Only one reliable source is needed to back up content, and I have provided it. You're clearly deflecting, as you are faced with this source and able to provide absolutely zero of your own, as the one you have provided is unreliable by your own standards. If you have nothing to provide other than mere back-and-forth banter, zero sources, and personal attacks, then you clearly have nothing to contribute to this discussion, and you're doing nothing but beating a dead horse. -- / Alex /<sub style="color:#008">21  05:09, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
 * If there are conflicting sources as to whether or not it takes place in the Arrowverse, it doesn't get included until we have a confirmation from the CW themselves. It's not complicated.  Dark Knight  2149  02:04, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 * A source has confirmed it's not part of the Arrowverse, so that's this problem solved. Sorry that you joined the party late. Also, The CW would be a PRIMARY source, which we try not to use too much of. -- / Alex /<sub style="color:#008">21  09:53, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 * The reason I bring it up is because I just removed Deathstroke: Knights and Dragons, which redirected to this article.  Dark Knight  2149  17:49, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Series overview
I converted the table to a series overview (now that the template supports multi-series franchises) for exactly the same reason we convert a normal raw wikicode table to a series overview, for standardization. Yes, so the table requires an info header, that's barely a reason to revert. Instead of mass reverting a valid edit, an alternative could have been put forward for the title "Series details". -- / Alex /<sub style="color:#008">21  23:26, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , comments? -- / Alex /<sub style="color:#008">21  06:37, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry been a little busy. I get trying as much as possible to change raw wikicode tables to templates, but in this case I don't feel like there's a benefit in this change since is just adds an unnecessary and redundant header row to the table making it clunkier and since the raw table itself isn't really that complicated to begin with I would just keep it as is. Is there any way we could have the  parameter disabled when multi-series franchise option is selected? - Brojam (talk) 19:39, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I've been thinking of removing infoheader in all series overviews, it's really not that necessary... I'll whip up some examples and take a look later. -- / Alex /<sub style="color:#008">21  22:07, 12 October 2019 (UTC)