Talk:Assata Shakur/Archive 3

RFC

 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"convicted of crime" or "convicted criminal"? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:51, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Convicted of murder

 * ✅ People are convicted of crimes, the wording is important. The Central Park Five were convicted of rape, they weren't convicted rapists. Even confessing to a crime does not make you a murderer or rapist, the Central Park Five confessed. The wording has a godlike absolutism to it. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 03:03, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with the two neutral !votes to date that the core of meaning is the same between the two constructions, but in my estimation they are not perfectly identical in terms of how well they convey encyclopedic tone. It's not a particularly drastic difference, either way, but enough to make the call between the two to feel obvious enough.  S n o w  let's rap 07:20, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Bot summoned. I don't fully understand which two wordings are competing in this RfC, as the prompt is slightly different than the two categories. I agree with how it is written currently in the article: "Assata Olugbala Shakur ... is an African-American activist, member of the former Black Panther Party (BPP) and Black Liberation Army (BLA) who was convicted of murder in 1977." I think this is the best written format. FuriouslySerene (talk) 14:56, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Agree that "was convicted of murder" is the more encyclopedic wording. That's a statement of fact. "Is a convicted murderer" is not quite equivalent, since it means "is a murder, and was convicted"; WP cannot actually know whether Shakur really is a murderer, only that a court convicted him of murder. Many people are convicted of things they did not do. Doesn't seem likely in this case, but WP is not omniscient and should not be written as if it is.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  04:06, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Per . Best, FoCuS contribs ;  talk to me!  14:02, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Summoned by bot. I don't see any major difference, but the current usage is fine. Coretheapple (talk) 18:39, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Per SMcCandlish, 'convicted of … ' is more neutral, factual and clear. Pincrete (talk) 22:16, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Convicted murderer

 * (add opinion here)

Neutral

 * Both seems fine to me. Once one is convicted of murder, it is okay to call him, convicted murderer. What is more appropriate to use in a sentence depends on that sentence (Google news search results for Convicted of murder and Convicted murderer). Anup   [Talk]  23:46, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Both mean more or less the same. Once you are convicted of a crime, you are a convicted criminal. 🔯 Sir Joseph 🍸 (talk) 17:58, 14 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080611130142/http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/fugitives/dt/chesimard_jd.htm to https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/fugitives/dt/chesimard_jd.htm
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160306153434/https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2013/may/joanne-chesimard-first-woman-named-most-wanted-terrorists-list/joanne-chesimard-first-woman-named-to-most-wanted-terrorists-list?utm_campaign=email-Immediate&utm_medium=email&utm_source=fbi-top-stories&utm_content=220749 to https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2013/may/joanne-chesimard-first-woman-named-most-wanted-terrorists-list/joanne-chesimard-first-woman-named-to-most-wanted-terrorists-list

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Consistency of subject's name
It was disconcerting to read this article and find that the subject's name changes, sometimes from one sentence to the next. She is referred to as Assata (in violation of use of first name), Shakur, Byron, and Chesimard. There appears to be no consistency, even in historical context. I suggest that she be referred to as Shakur throughout, since that is how she is named in the title. Akld guy (talk) 21:52, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

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James Harper perjury
This article states, in wikipedia's voice, that James Harper admitted perjury on the stand. Harper appears to be a blp http://nypost.com/2017/06/16/wounded-trooper-wants-cuba-to-return-cop-killer-to-us/

The sources for this claim are: 1) NYTimes op-ed by a Shakur advocate says "lied". This may support inclusion of "Taylor, a supporter of Shakur says Harper lied" but it is not a claim the Times is making in its own voice. 2) Joy James's book. James sources the claim to the foreword to Shakur's autobiography, and makes *no* claim to having independently checked this claim. Once again, this is a source that is unashamedly pro-Shakur and should be treated as such. 3) Alix Kirsta article in the Times (from 1999, over two decades later). Quality unknown.

OTOH, the New York Times and other local newspapers covered the trials at the time. You'd think that Harper admitting perjury on the stand would make it into their coverage, but I can't find anything. This article is very tender to Shakur, and carefully describes her only as a "convicted" murderer, even though she was convicted in a court of law. Why are we directly accusing Harper of perjury, who was never tried let alone convicted, with such flimsy sourcing? NPalgan2 (talk) 21:41, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Does this article really merit FA status?
Here is an entire paragraph: "Trooper Harper's official reports state that after he stopped the Pontiac, he ordered Acoli to the back of the vehicle for Trooper Foerster—who had arrived on the scene—to examine his driver's license.[146] The reports then state that after Acoli complied, and as Harper was looking inside the vehicle to examine the registration, Trooper Foerster yelled and held up an ammunition magazine as Shakur simultaneously reached into her red pocketbook, pulled out a nine-millimeter weapon and fired at him.[146] Trooper Harper's reports then state that he ran to the rear of his car and shot at Shakur who had exited the vehicle and was firing from a crouched position next to the vehicle.[146]"

This entire paragraph is sourced to assatashakur.org! This information may or may not have been contentious at the trial, but a wikipedia article should not rely on assatashakur.org for sourcing, let alone an FA. The article was promoted in 2008. Considering the James Harper perjury issue (see above), I have little confidence in the process that led to this article's promotion. I am going to put this article up for review. NPalgan2 (talk) 21:52, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Another example
This article says: "The prosecution contended that Shakur shot and killed her companion, Zayd Shakur, and "executed" Trooper Foerster with his own weapon.[131]"

From the NYTimes article cited: “He [Foerster] was executed with his own weapon,” Mr. Barone said. Trooper James Harper was wounded in the exchange and a companion of Mrs Chesimard was shot dead…. Police authorities contend that Mrs. Chesimard shot and killed Mr. Costan [Zayd Shakur], who had been wounded in the exchange of gunfire with Trooper Harper."

Police authorities is not the same as 'prosecution'. The police may have said Assata killed Zayd, but the NYTimes does not support saying the prosecution at the trial said this. NPalgan2 (talk) 22:27, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Literal Nazi website referenced
This article links to COINTELPRO by Paul Wolf. But it was hosted on a Nazi website called Zionist Occupation Government's Nightmare: "This site is extremely politically incorrect. Zog's Nightmare promotes true National Socialist views. Website content is protected by American free-speech laws. Zog's NIghtmare can be scary to mentally-confused whites or the unclean hordes of the racially-challenged." WTF? NPalgan2 (talk) 13:29, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
 * In any case, is Paul Wolf a reliable source? We're supposed to be using reliable published sources, not word doc files floating around on random internet sites. NPalgan2 (talk) 13:31, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure about the reliability of the source generally, but I did edit the citation with a better (non-Nazi) link to the doc. Google Scholar is a pretty good source for alternative versions of articles like this. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 08:51, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Tupac
Assata Shakur (born JoAnne Byron) is often said to have been Tupac Shakur's(step) godmother/aunt. Can anyone do better? NPalgan2 (talk) 03:36, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Assata's mother's name was Johnson.
 * Her father's name was presumably Byron but I can't find any information about him)
 * Assata Shakur had one sister, Beverly born in 1952 after Assata's parents divorced.
 * Tupac's mother was Afeni Shakur (born Alice Wiliams, the daughter of Rosa Belle, a homemaker, and Walter Williams)
 * Mutulu Shakur, Tupac's stepfather, was born Jeral Williams. He is often said to have been Assata's (step)brother but I can't find a cite and it seems unlikely.
 * It just seems that Mutulu and Afeni were close friends of Assata and she is sometimes vaguely said to have been Tupac's godmother.

Sourcing issues
Sourcing issues: Six times in the article Ward Churchill's book is cited. Churchill was fired for fabrication, so maybe we need a better source: "On May 16, 2006 the University released their findings; the Investigative Committee agreed unanimously that Churchill had engaged in "serious research misconduct", including falsification, fabrication, and two of the three allegations of plagiarism.[4] " NPalgan2 (talk) 06:39, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Also cited 6 times is Langston University Gazette. Once again, not RS. NPalgan2 (talk) 06:59, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

RNA undue weight?
The article, before I started working on it, says she joined the RNA (based on secondary source), but she just seems to have gone to a party and "become a citizen/got a new name" (like getting your fortune told?) and never thought about it again. reedit to make it clear her involvement was really peripheral unless there's evidence of more involvement? NPalgan2 (talk) 04:12, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
 * REMOVED NPalgan2 (talk) 19:33, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Problem
The NYTimes says:

Trooper Harper said that Joanne D. Chesimard, 26, was seated in the right front seat of the car he stopped, Mr. Squire was in the right side of the rear seat of the two‐door automobile and their companion, James Costan, 32, who was killed in the shootout, was behind the wheel of their automobile, which bore Vermont license plates.

We follow this in the article, saying Zayd Shakur was driving, and obviously he was the one killed. But it seems that the NYT got it mixed up, because literally every other source says that Acioli was driving and was searched by Harper and Zayd and Assata were the passengers. NPalgan2 (talk) 01:44, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Note that later on in the article, we correctlysay: Trooper Harper's official reports state that after he stopped the Pontiac, he ordered Acoli to the back of the vehicle for Trooper Foerster—who had arrived on the scene—to examine his driver's license. (which contradicts the earlier part) NPalgan2 (talk) 01:46, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
 * FIXED NPalgan2 (talk) 01:53, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

More on supporters' reasoning?
Though this article has plenty of information about critiques of the U.S. government's actions against Shakur and about defenses of her, it has virtually no details about the many, many prominent people who find her to be inspiring and praiseworthy. Instead, such paeans are offered without the reasoning behind them. That raises more questions than it answers, since it's hard for many people to square such views with even those facts of her life that are not under dispute. A good example of this is the quote, "When I use Assata’s powerful demand in my organizing work, I always begin by sharing where it comes from." No mention is made of what demand is being referred to here. (The source links "demand" to an speech that has many recriminations, but - in my reading - no demands. The closest thing to one is, "There is, and always will be, until every Black man, woman, and child is free, a Black Liberation Army.")  Likewise, the letter from Maxine Waters to Fidel Castro is linked to but its content is not used in the article. More from those who admire and defend her as a person, not just offer criminal defense of the charges she faced, is sorely missing from the article. Someone familiar with these (and sources for them) could improve the article greatly. Calbaer (talk) 03:12, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

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Lead Section
The lead currently reads that the Black Liberation Army is an "urban Guerilla Group". Several sources indicate that it is in fact a domestic terrorism organisation. Calling it an "Urban Geurilla Group" would be WP:SYN or WP:POV. I have changed it to reflect the correct designation. I've also re-added that Shakur is currently wanted for Domestic terrorism by the FBI and that she is only woman to ever be added to the 10 most wanted list. This is most certianly noteworthy and should be in the lead. The comment about the prosecution not "needing to prove that she fired the shots". Its inserted as a qualifier to cast aspersions on the conviction and has been removed Fusion2186 (talk) 23:32, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
 * From the washPo article you link "To law enforcement, Shakur is the killer convicted in the execution-style slaying of New Jersey State Trooper Werner Foerster in 1973. She is the Black Liberation Army leader busted out of prison by her comrades two years into a life sentence, a domestic terrorist implicated in a string of crimes and a key part of organization that waged war on police. To her supporters, ..." Note that the article does not judge between the two perspectives. Wikipedia articles are supposed to be neutral, fact-based and objective.
 * * "The comment about the prosecution not "needing to prove that she fired the shots". Its inserted as a qualifier to cast aspersions on the conviction and has been removed " I inserted that as it is not clear whether Shakur was convicted of firing the shots that killed Foerster (or wounded Harper) or whether she was convicted as her presence was considered to aid and abet Acoli's shooting of them. The lead summarises the content of the article. NPalgan2 (talk) 23:48, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, wikipedia generally avoids calling organisations "terrorist" in wikipedia's voice, but prefers to note that people call it terrorist. An article quoting the FBI calling the BLA terrorist is not enough on its own to call it that in a wikipedia article. NPalgan2 (talk) 00:07, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

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Imprisonment
It says that Shakur was transferred to Alderson on April 8, 1978. The very next paragraph says that on March 31, 1978, the max security section was closed and Shakur tranferred out. Only problem is that is more than a week before she supposedly was transferred in. I can see the source for the second part, but don't have access to the source for the first date. This should be deleted or fixed. TMagen (talk) 13:05, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

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"The FBI has added her to its list of "Most Wanted Terrorists"."
This needs a reference/source/citation.Merrisr (talk) 20:36, 11 March 2018 (UTC) nevermind, I found it, will add. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Merrisr (talk • contribs) 20:43, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Why do her supporters argue her trial was unfair?
The article states in the lead "...in a trial her supporters argue was unfair." but then dies a poor job of explaining why they argue this in the main body of the article. I suggest this article be improved to better explain why her supporters believe she received an unfair trial. --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 18:28, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:22, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Assata shakur.jpg

Condense/break out trials
Too much (in my opinion) of this article is devoted to the details of her legal charges and trials. I think the accounts should be condensed on this page and that the detailed information deserves its own page. DoSazunielle (talk) 17:12, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Chesimard vs Byron Birth Name
This article uses "JoAnne Deborah Chesimard" as Ms. Shakur's given name, but the box with her picture and biographical info lists her given name as "JoAnne Deborah Byron". Did she have two different last names? Is "Byron" a typo/vandalism? 2600:8802:5200:3830:98BE:3480:6362:B223 (talk) 03:07, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

frequently cited source fails to meet Wikipedia standards
I was briefly reading the article, and found that this is one of the more frequently cited sources:


 * Williams, Evelyn A. (June 25, 2005). "Statement of Facts in the New Jersey trial of Assata Shakur Archived 2006-12-14 at the Wayback Machine". The Talking Drum Collective. Retrieved on 2008-05-09.

It's from an advocacy page set up by Chesnard's aunt, who also served as one of her former attorneys. It's published by The Talking Drum, which states on its home page: "The enemy is intensifying its efforts to catch our beloved Sister Assata. We must make sure every visitor to this site knows and can defend the honor of Sister Queen Assata." This is not an RS by any stretch of the imagination, and citing it violates not just WP:RS, but also WP:NPOV. It goes without saying that any information in the article that cites this source and for which there are no RS needs to be removed. Thanks! Elle Kpyros (talk) 17:19, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

potential newer source?
https://abcnews.go.com/US/assata-shakur-convicted-killing-police-officer-wanted-fbi/story?id=63076257 "FBI eyes convicted killer 40 years later Civil rights activist turned convicted murderer, Assata Shakur, continues to be a "top priority" for law enforcement officials, even 40 years after she was broken out of a Clifton, New Jersey, prison and fled to Cuba." IrishLas (talk) 23:49, 31 March 2022 (UTC)