Talk:Beat 'em up

Missing Refference / Broken Link
Refference 29 to back-up "Street Fighter '89" has a broken link —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.51.47.174 (talk) 08:02, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Discussion
The "Fighting game" article was split into this and the Versus fighting game articles. The 'fighting game article is now a disambiguation page. --Mikademus 11:41, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

This page should be moved to Beat 'em up as the apostraphe is a replacement for "them" and it also follows the pattern of the previously existing Shoot 'em up --Larsinio 16:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge
SURELY this should be merged with the entirely different article for beat em ups spelled without the apostrophe! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.172.186 (talk) 16:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

New Category created
Hello all! I have created a new category. Use this for all non 2d/2.5d beat em ups like Die Hard Arcade --Larsinio 18:37, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Beginnings
This section needs to be merged with the following paragraph which contradictingly lists Double dragon as being more important. In the West I think this is true, as Double Dragon was much more popular than Renegade ever was. Far too much detail is given about Renegade however, and the "right punch/left punch/jump" buttons is not something that is commonly used (if ever after it). -- larsinio  ( poke )( prod ) 20:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * How about "precursors" instead of "beginnings"? I think Renegade, while not a beat 'em up in its own right, was certainly a huge influence on the genre, especially because the same team who made Renegade went on to make Double Dragon next, using what they'd learned from making Renegade. Luvcraft 05:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Kung Fu Master
Please stop adding Kung Fu Master to this page; while it is certainly a "game where you beat people up", it is unequivocably NOT a "beat 'em up"; it lacks Z-axis movement, multiplayer, non-boss enemy HP, and weapon pick-ups. There are over 100 different games that DO have all (or almost all) of those defining features, so it's not like the genre needs to be expanded to include games with none of those features. Luvcraft 22:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Wasn't it you who added the z-movement as a required aspect? I have read no sources limiting 2D-scrolling fighting games -that is, beat'em ups- to only those which affords 2.5D motion, or those with "Z-axis movement, multiplayer, non-boss enemy HP, and weapon pick-ups" for that matter. Before Double Dragon and the bunch there were other games that should be counted to the genre, and Kung-Fu Master is one of them. You progress side-ways, it scrolls, you fight with martial arts. I.e., an early beat'em up. Can we have some consensus or good sources and we wouldn't risk fights over original research? However, this can be resolved without edit/revert wars and bad feelings. We simply edit the history section where we mention some of these games and how they eventually evolved into the typical kind we tend to think of today. Mikademus 18:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The rationale is that, since there are over a hundred games that DO have Z-axis movement, it is confusing to also include games without it. If you drop the Z-axis requirement to include Kung Fu Master, you should also include Shinobi, Rastan, Ghosts 'n' Goblins, and Super Mario Bros.. Those are all games where you scroll along a 2D plane and fight enemies. At that point you're just including ALL 2D, sidescrolling games. The Z-axis movement, again, is present in over 100 different "beat 'em up" games, which indisputably makes it a defining feature of the genre. Luvcraft 18:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * So you are saying Kung-fu Master is a Run'n Gun game? My position is simple: I've never seen the definition you're advocating anywhere. Show me external references and all is green. Otherwise it would appear to be arbitrary and original research, and Z-movement is nothing more or less than a prominent feature of many (or even most) of the games of the genre. Mikademus 21:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

After the debate here I have scorged the 'net for takes on and definitions of beat'em ups (using various search combinations of f.i. "genre", "beat'em up", "definition", "double dragon", etc etc) and of the few that are to be found none mentions Z-movement as a requirement for the genre. For instance, everything2.com defines "beat'em up" as "Name given to a genre of video games in which you control one or more characters and have to beat up one or more opponents, commonly using some kind of Martial Arts, or large pointy objects. Made popular mainly by Street Fighter 2", or take this german definition:
 * Beat ' em UP is a computer game genre in which bodily violence, often in the form of different asian-inspired combat arts, is employment; usually unarmed, but partly also with close-range weapons. In some games characters with supernatural abilities occur (for example telekinesis, increased speed or superhuman jump capabilities). [Beat 'em up (englisch für "Schlag sie zusammen!") ist ein Computerspiel-Genre, das den Einsatz von direkter körperlicher Gewalt in Form von verschiedenen, oft asiatisch inspirierten Kampfkunst-Stilen thematisiert, meist unbewaffnet, teils auch mit Nahkampfwaffen ausgestattet. In einigen Spielen kommt es vor, dass Spielfiguren noch über übernatürliche Fähigkeiten verfügen (beispielsweise Telekinese, erhöhte Geschwindigkeit, übermenschliche Sprünge).] (From Web definition of "beat'em up")

On the other hand, there are several independent examples of sources that list Kung-fu Master among other non-Z-movement-featured side-scrolling fighting games as beat'em ups. Further, in Wikipedia we divide fighting games into versus fighters and beat'em ups, if Kung-Fu Master and other similar titles is not a Beat'em Up, what is it?! It is certainly a fighing game but equally certainly not a versus fighter. We can't invent genres, and it fits here, especially since no souces contradict this and multiple sources in fact substantiates it. I have updated the definition and inserted a paragraph in the history section to reflect this. If there is more controversy about this it should be settles by peer review and a consensus vote. Mikademus 18:31, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Kung Fu Master may not even be the first one. There is "Jackie Chan in Project A" for MSX, released also in 1984. Since Kung Fu Master is from December, and Project-A is based on the movie from 1983, chances are Project-A was released first.SLotman (talk) 01:11, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
 * If this site is correct, then the game is from March'84, which would make it actually the first instead of Kung Fu Master.SLotman (talk) 01:21, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Another hint pointing to Project-A as being the first: this site says Spartan-X (original name of Kung Fu Master) was first released "as a tie-in based on the Jackie Chan film Wheels on Meals". This movie is from August 1984. I guess is pretty safe to assume Project-A came before Kung Fu Master.SLotman (talk) 01:28, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
 * So... 5 years later and nobody has anything to add? You guys should change the page to reflect that Jackie Chan in Project-A (for MSX and PC-88) was the first beat'em up insteadof Kung Fu Master! SLotman (talk) 03:37, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Spikeout
Who, exactly, thought it would be a good idea to have Spikeout redirect to this article?--John 00:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Why not? It is a beat 'em up. I'd like to know who keeps deleting all the obscure beat 'em ups from the database. Check your facts before you start erasing things I spend my precious time painstakingly uploading here. - xenodolf

Original Research?
Is there any sources to support the name of this category? It seems to me that this whole thing should be merged into side-scroller.
 * Well, problem is, side-scroller is not a genre, it's a style of gameplay which many genres are part of, such as side-scrolling platformers, side-scrolling shoot 'em ups, and side-scrolling beat 'em ups. 213.67.210.82 11:12, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Etymology
I would be interested in learning how the "beat them up" label came into play - apart from obvious reasons. I assume I'm right in thinking beat 'em up was followed by shoot 'em up and then sneak 'em up - but what originally inspired the "'em up" label for gaming genres? I realise this is quite a nonspecific point but I can't think of a better place to put the discussion than here. Yeanold Viskersenn 04:20, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Scrolling fighter
Might it be a good idea to change the the name of this article to the more descriptive and accurate "scrolling fighter"? Beat 'em Up can also mean Versus Fighter in certain areas. It also just reads better. JohnnyMrNinja 10:40, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The opening lines in the article already makes clear the distinction between the two genres of games, and explains that the American term is used in the article. I don't see why the title should be changed. --70.143.32.196

Not all beat 'em ups "scroll". The Dynasty Warriors series is most certainly a beat 'em up and it uses a conventional behind-the-character view. The term scrolling fighter applied to beat 'em ups only during the earlier 2D days when that was the most common style of game-play for the genre. - xenodolf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.190.4.79 (talk) 13:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

God Hand
Would God Hand be an acceptable example of Modern Beat 'Em Up? FlameAdder (talk) 08:36, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes. God Hand is one of many modern beat 'em ups; alongside The Warriors, Urban Reign, Beatdown, etc. - xenodolf

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hack and slash
I suggest changing "hack and slash" in the introduction to "slashers", since "hack and slash" is applyed to both rouge games and action RPG as often as it is applyed to slashers. Netrat (talk) 09:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

the term "hack 'n slash" has been around since the days of Golden Axe. I know rogue-likes also use the phrase for whatever reason but I believe the term is already too ingrained into the gaming community to attempt changing. besides, if you were to simplify it to "slashers" it would be confused with maniac-killer style horror movies that already use that term. - xenodolf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.26.233.31 (talk) 22:57, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

"brawlers"
Although it's more rare, these games are often called brawlers. See, , , ... Don't have time now, but if no one gets around to it, I'll add these refs. (Particularly the last one, which makes it 100% clear.) Randomran (talk) 14:49, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I've heard the term, but then you have stuff like which uses "brawlers" as an umbrella term for both beat 'em ups and fighting games. bridies (talk) 15:01, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting. That's the only place I've heard/read that. Still, rather than not mention it at all, I think it's safe to put it somewhere in the definition of the genre (and the lead) -- because it is something that the genre is sometimes described as. I won't push it too hard though. Randomran (talk) 15:05, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. bridies (talk) 15:15, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Wot, no Castle Crashers?
Really great work on this you guys, coincides nicely with the release of Streets of Rage 2 on that mega drive pack :D Have you looked at Castle Crashers, or discounted it? It's the only notable example of a traditional beat 'em up that stands out recently. Someoneanother 15:44, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I hadn't heard of it, but it does indeed look like it would fit in nicely next to Viewtiful Joe. I'll get to it a bit later on. Or here's a good review if anyone else wants to: . bridies (talk) 16:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, Done. bridies (talk) 20:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I added a little comment about MadWorld too, since it's getting good reviews and kind of meditates on the conventions of the genre. Somehow, when a genre starts to parody itself you really get a sense of what it's all about -- which is great for writing articles about the genre. Randomran (talk) 01:35, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah I was going to mention Madworld also, but I couldn't find anything calling it a beat 'em up (guess I didn't look hard enough). It was in the previous, horrible version of the article. bridies (talk) 01:41, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the article looks pretty complete by my standards. Thankfully, it's easier to write a history section for a niche genre. Randomran (talk) 07:59, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent stuff, the addition of God Hand and Madworld as well has rounded that section off nicely. It's really great to read this, beat 'em ups were by far the most compelling reason to visit arcades in my yoof. Someoneanother 10:47, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You know, I remember when we started on this article I was like "god these games are so corny". But as I worked on it, I remembered that I played at least half of them, and wasted so many darn quarters. Something about them captured my imagination. Anyway, thanks for the feedback! Randomran (talk) 16:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Reverts
Re this. I fail to see why the Street Fighter (or even Final Fight) in-game universe is at all relevant to the history of beat 'em ups. Secondly please read WP:RS; Wikipedia is not a reliable source and flyers are primary sources. bridies (talk) 09:54, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Final Fight not originally 1-to-1 fighting game
The source that was cited for this information is incorrect. You can see the source with the print ad that still carried the Street Fighter '89 title and you can clearly see the gameplay is still a beat 'em up. Unless someone can find and OFFICIAL source that actually confirms that it used to be a 1-on-1 fighting game, I would appreciate if people would stop adding this back in, because it's not factual. Kiwisoup (talk) 18:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The source doesn't actually say that exactly. My bad. bridies (talk) 05:12, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Chuck Norris Superkicks
Somebody should include Chuck Norris Superkicks (Xonox), a scrolling karate game from 1983 on the Atari VCS 2600.

Belt scroll redirect?
Belt scroll (including its talk page) redirects here but it's not mentioned here at besides as a see also link (which obviously is circular). --Enmoku (talk) 03:11, 17 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Originally,I created Belt scroll page.JohnnyMrNinja simply deleted and redirected it here by he claimed "Dictionary entry, redundant to beat 'em up. Besides In Japan they don't call them belt scroll, they call them 日本語",and add no explanation to this article.He doesn't know "ベルトスクロール" is directly written in Katakana same as "Internet" written as "インターネット" in Japanese,which is phonogram therefore not original Japanese word.


 * Japanese developers and game culture played central role in Beat'em up genre ,especially with Golden Age games.Almost of them are referred to as "belt scroll" action game in Japan and people affected from it.It's useful word because of easily refer Double Dragon style games.For example,Double Dragon,Final Fight,Street of Rage are belt scroll,but Kung-Fu Master,Fighting Force,Zeno Crash are not belt scroll.


 * Last version of "Belt scroll" article before deleted by JohnnyMrNinja is "Belt scroll is a video game genre that is side-scrolling action with downward camera angle. The character is able to move not only sideways but also vertical to depth within limited area.


 * This term is mainly used in Japan. It comes from the conveyor belt-like viewpoint." I think this explanation should be merge with this article.

--射丸蔵 (talk) 21:51, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Onward Section...Missing Major Games Class
Does anyone else think games like Marvel Ultimate Alliance or Duke Nukem Manhattan Project are the spiritual successors to this genre? I think MUA and X-Men Legends have become the modern beat-em up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.54.72.116 (talk) 14:25, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Jagged85-related removals
Let me illustrate what I'm talking about here, starting with the various mentions of early games:
 * Samurai is sourced to KLOV. This source doesn't mention "beat 'em up", and it doesn't indicate any significance or relevance to this genre. No critical commentary at all, just a general description of the game.
 * Jagged 85's additions of Super Spy are the subject of multiple complaints across various articles. Like those, here it's sourced to allgame and doesn't give any commentary of any significance to the beat 'em up genre. Pretty sure it doesn't call it a beat 'em up.
 * And ditto with Crossed Swords. This one isn't so bad, as the allgame source at least has some critical commentary, but it doesn't call it a beat 'em up and doesn't mention any significance to the genre.
 * Arabian Fight. As with so many of his other additions, Jagged 85 wrote that this game was "notable" when the source said nothing of the sort. It says "The most interesting feature of Arabian Fight is the use of scaling", so maaaayyyybeeee that merits a mention, but it also says: "The gameplay of Arabian Fight is distinctly average. Once the appeal of the graphics has worn off, it becomes apparent that little time was spent in fine-tuning the gameplay, which is very repetitive. There is little variation as the player progresses, and the whole game has a rather rushed feel to it. It is very reminiscent of Sega's earlier DD Crew." Pretty much the exact opposite of "notable".
 * Bruce Lee is source to allgame. Jagged85 made no mention of any significance to the genre, and neither does the source. In fact, the source doesn't even call it a beat 'em up. So just wtf is it doing here? bridies (talk) 16:04, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
 * And lets not forget Chinese Hero, again sourced to a KLOV entry, with again no mention of "beat 'em up" let alone any claim of significance to the genre. bridies (talk) 16:08, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Confusing?
In the opening paragraphs, it says:

"The genre has been less popular since the emergence of 3D-based mass-market games..."

In the History section, the article says:

"Despite these releases [DYNASTY WARRIORS, YAKUZA, etc.], game reviewers started to pronounce that the genre had died off."

But then the last paragraph in the History section begins with:

"In recent years, the beat 'em up genre has seen a revival in the form of popular 3D hack and slash games in the style of Devil May Cry (2001 onwards), including Ninja Gaiden (2004 onwards), God of War (2005 onwards), Heavenly Sword (2007), Afro Samurai (2009),[52] and Bayonetta (2009)."

This is confusing. Has the genre died off or not then? Can DEVIL MAY CRY and GOD OF WAR really be classified as beat-em-up games? If "Yes", then the last statement contradicts the above statements. Both DEVIL MAY CRY and GOD OF WAR are incredibly popular franchises which have sold millions worldwide. GOD OF WAR itself is a system seller. I would hardly call them representatives of of a "dying genre" or "less popular". They have incredible presence within the video game industry. If we were to judge the popularity of beat-em-up games based purely on the aforementioned franchises, then clearly the genre is flourishing.

I'm guessing what the author (or authors) is trying to convey here is that modern action games like DMC and GOD OF WAR, while not pure beat-em-up games, have taken inspiration from the genre. Or maybe the beat-em-up genre has not died off, but has been incorporated the 3-D action adventure genre, which has enjoyed immense popularity in recent years. It's the "pure beat-em-up" genre (simplistic action games like FINAL FIGHT, STREETS OF RAGE, etc.) that is disappearing, with more complex action games like DEVIL MAY CRY rising in popularity. However these newer complex action games owe their roots to the beat-em-up genre. I think the article should make this distinction clearer. For example, how about saying "3-D action adventure games like DEVIL MAY CRY and GOD OF WAR have taken inspiration from classic beat-em-ups to create a new 3-D action genre which is flourishing in the market." or "The classic beat-em-up template inspired modern 3-D action games like DEVIL MAY CRY and GOD OF WAR, which have enjoyed immense popularity in recent years." The way it reads now, it's a little misleading. 76.235.21.169 (talk) 01:25, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

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