Talk:Beethoven and Mozart

Comments

 * Beethoven remarking this <???>, begged for a theme for improvisation, and, inspired by the presence of the master he reverenced revered so highly, ...
 * This appears to be a direct quote, or a published translation thereof, hence I was loath to edit it. But the struck out words are cause for concern. I’ve indicated my preferred alternatives, except for the first one.  I don't quite understand what "remarking this" was meant to be saying.


 * Hi JackOfOz, I think we're free to use a more idiomatic translation provided we check the German original. Doing this, I found that Pauline Townsend had used "remark" (in 1882) to translate German "merken."  I think "notice" would be a better translation in present-day English.  Townsend's "reverenced so highly" is her translation of German "hochverehrt" and your suggested "revered" seems better.  I verified these in a German dictionary, then put them into the text.  Opus33 (talk) 17:22, 10 January 2011 (UTC)


 * [Beethoven's] first surviving letter, to a member of a family in Augsburg that who had befriended him ...
 * Likewise. But it's not clear whether it was the family that befriended him or the family member who befriended him.


 * Here we're stuck, the Grove is written in English. Maybe there is some other source that says the same thing more clearly. Opus33 (talk) 17:22, 10 January 2011 (UTC)


 * In the Influence section, we should also be mentioning Mozart's Fantasia and Sonata in C minor being a direct model for Beethoven's Pathétique Sonata in the same key. --  Jack of Oz   [your turn]  21:51, 8 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Done. Thanks for spotting these.  Opus33 (talk) 17:22, 10 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your quick response, Op. 33. --  Jack of Oz   [your turn]  06:10, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Mozart Jupiter as source for Piano Concerto #1?
Hmm. The source was merely a web page (now deleted), not a scholarly book or article. And there is another available hypothesis, namely that the scheme with which the two works begin is just a standard item in the musical language of the classical period.

Assert the tonic with A! Make less-assertive but interesting reply with B.  Assert the dominant with A!  Return to tonic with B.

The Haydn E flat piano sonata (#48) does this. Beethovens' Opus 2 No. 3 does this. Mozart's 39th does this. Mozart's 40th does this. There are more in my head but I can't immediately remember the work titles. I'll bet readers of this page could think of many more.

So I took the reference out. If there's a published peer-reviewed source that makes a convincing case for influence/modeling I'd be fine with it going back in. Opus33 (talk) 17:42, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I want to believe this meeting
But neither Mozart nor Beethoven wrote one word about meeting one another, you'd think that they should have, but honestly? 108.196.187.166 (talk) 20:11, 1 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Correction - nothing survives of the writings of either man of such a meeting. Since so little is left, especially in the cast of Mozart, or either man's contemporaries, for that matter - some letter or diary could easily have contained such a notice and has been lost. 68.19.9.224 (talk) 01:49, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

It seems: one stance - like biographer Otto Jahn's was from Romanticism and Humanism that how we wish they could meet together and befriended happily in Vienna, so that Beethoven's later time wouldn't be so painful. Indeed, we can try to imagine: for meeting a life-supervisor, how hard Beethoven put himself into crazily waiting and searching in the streets of Vienna during those weeks...just for every possible indication to a meeting and a true understanding by Mozart... I am a piano teacher & learner that I also have the experiences searching for better learning opportunities and a confirmation of my own heart... I can understand Beethoven's heart. From humanity, how we wish they could meet with each other, even just one moment! Indeed, they really did, but in the power of each other's influence, and the fields-accumulation of music, which might not in the reality. Many Beethoven's works in this period have the similarities with Mozart's - this point was also an evidence. We cannot say: they are plagiarized, though Beethoven almost sensitively feared it too much. You knew, in the same period, how stressful other composers felt about being together with the greatest genius Mozart. They feared too much 'to be like Mozart...' but cannot get away... Therefore, I think we should see Beethoven from more humanities and self-forgiveness.

Solomon and Grove Dictionary's view could be from Realism that it was really uncertain - without any documentary supports and even third-person witness... It's so cold that Beethoven's life got into depression and ill-heath, partly because of his mother's & father's death & illness, and partly because of... We can also feel: after Mozart, what a life-strike Beethoven has spent over in his growth. This is another way historians might strongly write down on papers. However, they were also 'uncertain' without too many documentary supports... All I wish is: in the sunny & holly& joyful part of Beethoven, there is always a Mozart near Heaven...Jason M. C., Han (talk) 14:12, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

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Name Change to "Beethoven and Mozart's relationship"
As we all can see, the title of this article is "Beethoven and Mozart".

I propose changing it to "Beethoven and Mozart's relationship".

Why?

Because when the title of the article has the format of "Person A + Person B" (like in this case), it is done to show that these two people are not notable enough to have individual articles, so, they are put in the same article.

To understand what I mean with the paragraph above, check these articles out: Jules and Gédéon Naudet and Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

In other words, the title is misleading because this article is about the RELATIONSHIP of Beethoven and Mozart, not about their biographies (as is the case with the two articles listed above).

Thoughts? Jam ai qe ju shikoni (talk) 11:12, 3 September 2020 (UTC)