Talk:Bella Ramsey/Archive 1

Archive 1

Official website

Can I suggest this is removed as a hyperlink, as the website has clearly not been updated for at least 6 years. CountdownChloe (talk) 19:01, 17 July 2022 (UTC) --CountdownChloe (talk) 19:01, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 January 2023

Change she pronouns to them 69.178.59.85 (talk) 05:13, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: see above section Cannolis (talk) 05:16, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 January 2023

Exchange She with Them as they do not like to be gendered, stated in "personal life" 88.90.121.161 (talk) 20:28, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

 Partly done: Changed "she" to "Ramsey" seems safer. Revert if needed. - FlightTime (open channel) 20:33, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 January 2023

Change pronouns referring to Bella Ramsey from feminine (she/her) to neutral (they/them) to align with their non-binary status. Gabonicman (talk) 03:04, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

This is a repetition of a recent edit request. See the discussion above. –small jars tc 19:00, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Non-binary

Has anyone looked at the source for the statement that Bella is non-binary? I don't follow actors and actresses that much so I'm just going by what Wikipedia requirements state but shouldn't the source actually state they are non-binary or wouldn't that be a SYNTH/OR issue? Bella may very well be non-binary and may not use gender specific pronouns but we need an independent source that specifically states that. The New York Times article sourced to that statement does not even use non-binary in it from what I read. I don't have an account but I was able to print screen the article and read it. I'm going to search for a better source and leave as is for now. If I can't find anything I will revert the latest edits changing the pronouns in the article and possibly remove the statement until a proper source can be found. Verifiability to an independent secondary source is the key. --ARoseWolf 17:28, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

NBC News

Metro

UK Daily

I would consider these three sources one because they are basically a repeat but they confirm that, in reality, Bella doesn't really care about pronouns. The articles themselves refer to her as a she and that means we should follow the sources. I have reverted the edits changing her pronouns and will add these sources to the non-binary statement to further support that statement. --ARoseWolf 17:42, 13 January 2023 (UTC) Correction: I will not add the Metro source as it is considered generally unreliable per WP:RSN. --ARoseWolf 17:48, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

I would strongly urge you to examine the biases that led you to insist upon exclusively using "she/her" pronouns for this actor when they have stated that they use any pronouns. "I use any pronouns" does not mean "please exclusively use binary pronouns for me." Rather, when someone uses any pronouns alternately, they actually want people to use all of these pronouns. I understand that you want to select one set of pronouns for "clarity". However, the decision to exclusively use the pronouns that correspond to the individual's assigned gender at birth effectively erases this person's trans* identity. The singular pronoun "they" can be used to describe anyone precisely because it is gender-neutral, and thus would not be incorrect to use to describe Bella Ramsey even if they were, in fact, a woman. If one pronoun is used on this page, the correct choice would be "they/them."

Media articles frequently misgender nonbinary people and, in fact, THEIR choice to only use "she/her" pronouns for Bella Ramsey is lazy and incorrect. I don't see why Wikipedia should reproduce an error motivated by lack of care towards nonbinary identities and/or ignorance of the same. Anonymous emu (talk) 02:48, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia uses reliable sources and what they say in those sources. If you disagree with the use of reliable sources then maybe this isn't the right project to be editing. To use pronouns not found in reliable sources when the subject clearly states they don't care what pronouns are used is WP:OR no matter how lazy you may think the reporting is. --ARoseWolf 20:29, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Two excerpts from a recent GQ magazine interview with Bella Ramsey, published on 13 February 2023:

#1: "In January, she revealed in a New York Times profile that she self-defines as non-binary. (Ramsey says she doesn’t mind what pronouns are used for her, and elected to use she/her for this interview.)"

#2: "Ramsey may not define herself as a woman, but that doesn't mean that playing women isn't a gratifying experience, or is something that makes her uncomfortable. “This is what bothers me more than pronouns: being called a ‘young woman’ or a ‘powerful young woman’, ‘young lady,’ but I'm just not [that],” she says."

1.11.10.69 (talk) 23:24, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2023

change the "she/her" pronouns to "they/them" pronouns as bella ramsey is non binary. Exploding frogs (talk) 09:44, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Please take a look at the Pronoun use section above, and feel free to contribute towards establishing a consensus for this change. If a consensus can be found, then please make a new request if another editor does not make the edits required. Thanks. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:41, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2023

Bella Ramsey's birthday is September 30, 2003, which I found several references like this: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm8165602/ 136.158.78.197 (talk) 12:30, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

We would need reliable sources; IMDB is mostly user-generated content and not acceptable for this type of material. Sam Kuru (talk) 12:39, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2023

They use They/Them pronouns (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/11/arts/television/bella-ramsey-the-last-of-us.html) 92.1.206.155 (talk) 22:43, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 23:08, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Pronoun dispute March 6

I have requested a third opinion from one whose judgement I trust -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 22:46, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 March 2023

I'm personal life paragraph one noted Bella identifies as non-binary. The second paragraph then goes on to gender her. This should be changed.

This: Ramsey describes herself as a Christian, saying that her faith helped her when she was struggling with anorexia nervosa. In 2020, she ran a YouTube channel and related Instagram account called United Hope where she shared her faith.[25][26][27] Ramsey plays the guitar and sings.[28]

Should be changed to: Ramsey describes themself as a Christian, saying that their faith helped them when they were struggling with anorexia nervosa. In 2020, they ran a YouTube channel and related Instagram account called United Hope where they shared their faith.[25][26][27] Ramsey plays the guitar and sings.[28] 92.1.136.166 (talk) 21:28, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

• There is no consensus to make this change yet, but you are welcome to join the ongoing discussion above at #Pronoun use. Levivich (talk) 21:31, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Bella’s Prounouns

I think the article should be adjusted to respect Bella’s pronouns. He goes by any pronouns but in the article I only see “She”. Seems kind of disrespectful. Annajbalc (talk) 21:01, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Switching back and forth between different sets of pronouns within the same article is confusing to readers and should be avoided. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:49, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Bella often elects to use she/her pronouns in interviews so I don’t think it’s a huge issue. 84.70.187.200 (talk) 19:11, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

yea, only cause some people are too dumb to understand “all pronouns” 70.68.88.130 (talk) 19:12, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2023

Bella goes by all pronouns (he/she/they). Source: New York Times article titled “In ‘The Last of Us’, Bella Ramsey Might Save the World.” Where they say: “I guess my gender has always been very fluid,” she said. “Someone would call me ‘she’ or ‘her’ and I wouldn’t think about it, but I knew that if someone called me ‘he’ it was a bit exciting.” Now, if she sees “nonbinary” as an option on a form, she will tick it. “I’m very much just a person,” she said. “Being gendered isn’t something that I particularly like, but in terms of pronouns, I really couldn’t care less.” 84.70.187.200 (talk) 19:09, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

• No change is requested. Also, please scroll above to see previous discussion. S0091 (talk) 19:13, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2023

The purpose of my edit request is so that I may alter the pronouns used in the article to refer to the individual in question. Given that Bella Ramsey has recently come out as non-binary I feel that it would be respectful to refer to them by they/them pronouns. However if they have previously stated that they prefer to go by she/her pronouns or if they didn’t specify which pronouns they preferred, then feel free to ignore the request. 78.16.193.79 (talk) 20:19, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

seems Ramsey has not given a preferred pronoun so nothing to be done Cannolis (talk) 21:20, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Birthdate

There is a lot of discussion if their birthday is the 25th or the 30th september but on an instagram story Bella stated that two of their best friends (Lena Dunham and Luis Felber) got married on her Birthday, and they got married on september 25th. I'd like to change their birthdate but i don't know how to correctly reference this. Can anyone help me? Almaljv (talk) 00:11, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

I suggest you start by reading Wikipedia:Citing sources, Wikipedia's guidelines for how to cite sources. But you should be aware that tweets are usually not considered to be reliable sources, see Wikipedia:RSPTWITTER. Grachester (talk) 00:28, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Also your inference that Ramsey's birthday is on the 25th is clear original research and cannot be used as a source. Grachester (talk) 00:32, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. If Ramsay had said in a social media post something like My birthday is on 25 September, or made a Happy birthday to me post on 25 September that could be acceptable per an unambiguous WP:ABOUTSELF statement. But because the post you're referring to requires interpretation and foreknowledge that Dunham and Felber got married on 25 September, it would be original research to cite it in the article I'm afraid. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:06, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Actor or actress?

Should be actress as long as she even partially uses she pronouns from time to time. 2003:F1:4F11:40F2:28F2:27E9:FB50:22F7 (talk) 13:08, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I disagree, because "actor" is not gender specific, whereas "actress" usually refers specifically to female actors. "Actor" is correct for anyone, regardless of gender. Kelseyem (talk) 02:39, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 July 2023

I would like to add bella’s real birthday which is September 25th 2003 2A00:23C6:A296:7301:5875:AB99:BC9:63BD (talk) 00:43, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 01:58, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Pronoun Edit Request

I propose reverting the "They/Them" back to "She/Her" due to the following reasons,

She was nominated for the "Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama Series", which according to my understanding of English actress means a female actor. And she has stated that it does not cause any harm to do so.

I see this is an heated issue but we must aim to maintain parity on what is an actress. NotPixel (talk) 17:33, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

No. The nomination of Ramsey for the gendered category has drawn some pretty widespread condemnation of the Emmys for this (NME, The Independent, PinkNews). Ramsay has said that they were "uncomfortable" with being defined with either gendered lead award category.

MOS:GENDERID is also very clear here that we use the pronouns and gendered words that the article subject uses. In this case, it is still they/them and the gender neutral term actor. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:54, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 September 2023

their birthday is september 30th, and it is only listed on here with the month and year 2600:1009:B189:4184:84D3:1B9A:9E4E:2AF3 (talk) 06:12, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 06:29, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Have they changed their name? Is Isabella their dead name now?

Isabella is a female given name. Since Bella identifies as non-binary, have they changed their name? If so, their new name should be in the article instead of Isabella. 76.65.45.114 (talk) 04:56, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Bella has not publicly indicated anything of the sort, so there's nothing to change at the moment. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 05:31, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 December 2023

Change Hilda from 2018-Present to 2018-2023 as it has ended. Hyacinthuces (talk) 05:16, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 05:18, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Pronoun use

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This article should be adjusted to use they/them pronouns, and describe them as an actor instead of an actress. Both are the neutral terms for a gender fluid. Gender neutral is the most appropriate way to address someone unless you personally know the preferences for their gender expression or perception, which for some can change day to day. The neutral term is the most respectful assumption to make simply because it is commonly known that they don’t like being gendered.

(I’m saying this because I don’t know how to make the edit myself, but if I did I would.) But, from what I understand in other subjects or comments is that you need a citation to make a change? I don’t think that applies or is appropriate here and I hope that’s not something that’s a required citation for something that is required for anyone who exists outside of the binary. Bella shouldn’t be singled out for their preferences over something that is pretty much assumed of most celebrities, regardless of whether they are cis or trans. 2604:3D08:4F7A:1000:953D:E643:510E:A0D9 (talk) 00:31, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Strongly agree. Frankly, acknowledging someone is non-binary and then exclusively gendering them based on how you perceive their gender "for consistency and clarity" is completely unacceptable and fucking insulting. This shit keeps happening for articles about enbies, and it needs to stop. Dfsghjkgfhdg (talk) 21:48, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with this as well. I think there is a rough consensus forming around changing this article to use they/them pronouns, when reading all of the contributions since 13 January 2023. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:45, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Strongly disagree. You are manufacturing a consensus when multiple uninvolved editors have been following policy and denying the edit requests. If the subject does not express any preference, we use the pronouns most reliable sources use. They/them are not the only pronouns that someone who is nonbinary or gender fluid can use. Ramsey has literally said that she does not care which pronouns people use. It was a direct and explicit quote in a reliable source. IronGargoyle (talk) 20:23, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

IronGargoyle is correct in this matter. If Bella had said "use these pronouns" and it was stated as such in reliable sources then we would have something to move forward with. Bella didn't because Bella doesn't care. Wikipedia relies on what is stated in reliable sources. Changing Bella's pronouns to something other than what is used in reliable sources is WP:OR. We are not guaranteed to be shielded from being offended in life and Wikipedia is not a place to "right great wrongs" through activism or any other means no matter who it is that is offended. We rely on verifiable content as defined in reliable sources and included by consensus through collaboration. --ARoseWolf 20:38, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Ramsey has also said, in the same interview in the New York Times, that if someone called me 'he' it was a bit exciting and that Being gendered isn’t something that I particularly like.

As for manufacturing a consensus, I'm afraid I don't see it that way. I see multiple editors expressing that we should use gender neutral pronouns in the article. Some through edit requests, and others in the three separate discussion sections. And I see a smaller number of editors disagreeing with using gender neutral pronouns in the article.

With regards to what pronouns reliable sources use, they too seem split. Of the three used in the footnote, The Mary Sue uses both she/her and they/them, The Toronto Star uses they/them exclusively, and UK Daily uses she/her exclusively.

When looking at other recent reliable sources published after the New York Times interview;

• NME, New York Times, BBC, Elle, CNN, The Independent, The Times, Deadline use she/her
• PinkNews, GQ use she/her and they/them
• Nottingham Post, Out Magazine , Gay Times, Them.us, Out, IGN, Joe, News.com.au use they/them
• Today, Deadline, Eonline, USA Today avoid pronoun use entirely

So how would you describe the current usage in other recently published reliable sources? I would lean towards split, with a weak preference towards they/them.

If you believe there is a split, with no consensus between sources, then how should we handle this article? Should we default to she/her? They/them? Should we use she/her, they/them, he/him interchangeably? Or should we take the James Barry solution and follow Bella's preference to avoid being gendered by not using any pronouns in the article? Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:02, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Again, Ramsey was explicit about not caring about pronouns. Yes, Ramsey said that she doesn't like being gendered, but there are other ways to be gendered besides pronouns and she clearly set pronouns aside as an issue that was not important to her. The list of sources you provided feels very cherry-picked (and misrepresented—a number of the "avoid pronoun" articles actually do use she/her). I searched for "Bella Ramsey" in Google News and nearly every recent article from a major reliable source uses she/her. When we consider what sources are most reliable, we need to consider the potential POV bias that the sources have. Many of the sources that you mention using they/them for Ramsey have a narrower topic focus and could very likely have an editorial bias for increasing the usage of they/them pronouns when other pronouns could equally apply. There's nothing problematic with that editorial goal, but it's not Wikipedia's job to help these publications in their quest to right great wrongs, and the bias does need to be noted. IronGargoyle (talk) 04:02, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

True, there are other ways to be gendered than pronouns. We could be using gendered words like "actress" like we currently do in the lead and infobox, though we do also use "actor" in the Career section. Regardless, as an editor who is familiar with and edits several LGBT+ BLPs, it seems odd that we can recognise here on the talk page that Bella does not want to be gendered, but then consistently gender them as female through pronoun use and some gendered words.

I do not believe the list to be cherry-picked. The two criterion for the search was that it was an article on/about Bella, and that it was published after the NY Times interview on 11 January. If there's any that I've missed, I'd be happy to see them added to the list and reconsider, but as far as I could tell at the time I had covered all of the major RS who have published since that interview.

Of the sources that use they/them exclusively, four are LGBT+ focused publications yes. I don't know if I would consider that biased though, just more specialised in this content area. In the same way that we weigh peer reviewed journal sources higher than media sources in general, we do generally weigh specialised media sources higher than generalised media sources on their specialist subjects. I think we can however do without the claim that sources which use the singular they are on a "quest to right great wrongs", as the tendentious editing essay doesn't really apply to sources and so doesn't really help us with this situation.

As for the avoid pronoun articles being categorised wrong, I can see I made a mistake with Deadline, and maybe E Online which has a single gendered pronoun in it but otherwise seems to avoid pronoun use, but I don't see any pronouns in Today or USA Today that are not in quotations from others. Sideswipe9th (talk) 04:26, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I think changing actress to actor makes sense because it fits the spirit of Ramsey's discomfort with non-pronoun-gendering. I've made that change. Beyond that though, you are just repeating the same arguments that Ramsey's discomfort with gendering somehow extends to pronouns, when we have it from her directly that it doesn't extend to pronouns.

I appreciate your acknowledgement that you missed some she/her usage in the supposed "avoid pronoun" articles. You missed more. The Today article refers to Ramsey as "she" in the title (!), and USA Today uses "her" and refers to Ramsey as an actress. I think you forgot to strike out E Online, which you admit also used a gendered pronoun. It also should be noted that these are relatively short articles that cover other aspects of the show besides Ramsey. The articles would not be expected to have many pronouns, no matter which pronouns were being used. These repeated errors lead me to have little confidence in the fairness or impartiality of your citation dataset.

The idea that specialized publications should be given more weight in this case is just not true. MOS guidelines on this topic focus on using recent and reliable sources. We are looking for what general usage is. Comparing specialized mass-media sources to peer-reviewed academic sources is misguided. IronGargoyle (talk) 06:47, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Bella never said, "I do not want to be gendered." The articles very clearly state Bella doesn't care, meaning it doesn't matter. The majority of sources use she/her pronouns so that is what Wikipedia should use until there is evidence presented that Bella wants something different and then we can have that discussion. I would like to add that the "smaller" number of editors you see as opposing the alteration of the pronouns for the moment carry more weight because our arguments are based in policy. Tbh, I'm all for Bella being referred to as she/her, he/him, they/them or any other pronoun if that's what was found in the reliable sources. What we have in sources is the use of she/her and they/them with the only mention of "he" being in reference to it being exciting to be called that. Wikipedia can not make anything to be that is not there. Minimalizing reliable sources in favor of the ones that seemingly support your position and trivializing the policy based arguments of other editors is not the direction we want to go in. Also of note is that some of the IP addresses may be SPA's who are only here to change the pronouns and do not understand how Wikipedia works. They only see what they believe is something wrong and set out to fix it. Wikipedia might be full of inaccuracies and "wrong" information found in reliable sources because Wikipedia is not about supporting any particular version of "truth" except what is reflected in those reliable sources. --ARoseWolf 14:12, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

There is a very ongoing issue on Wikipedia, unfortunately, of cis editors using any excuse they can to come as close to misgendering people as Wikipedia policy will allow, and ignoring both well-known best practices surrounding both names and pronouns and ignoring consensus from other editors to insist on keeping things as close to not acknowledging trans people as they can. I saw something very similar recently with an editor who bent over backwards to insist that it was absolutely fine to say on Kris Jenner's article that she was married to "Bruce Jenner" and insisting that the *consensus* was that he was right despite not being able to produce and evidence of that fact and every single other person on the talk page telling him he was wrong.

It does not promote "clarity and consistency" to insist on using only one set of pronouns for someone who has *clearly and consistently* said they use multiple pronouns. Best practice in the trans community for years has been to vary pronouns when talking about people who use variable pronouns. Far more importantly, the person who started this thread is absolutely right to suggest that it's kinda suspect to choose for "clarity and consistency" to *solely* refer to a non-binary person with multiple pronouns as the pronoun most likely to contribute to them being perceived as a binary gendered person; if we *were* to only use one pronoun for Ramsay (which we really shouldn't), "they" would be far more fairly representative.

Honestly, can someone who knows the technical workings of wikipedia better than me figure out how to kick this up to a higher level of dispute, because it's pretty plain that IronGargoyle has sunk their teeth into the status quo on this and has zero desire to actually consider the argument being presented. QueerAsFolkPunk (talk) 22:32, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Using pronouns consistently throughout an article makes perfect sense, as it can be confusing to readers if we switch back a forth between them within the same article. And if someone says they are fine with either gendered pronouns or singular they pronouns, then using the gendered pronouns is just the most natural rather than forcing in a singular they. I think this article handles this situation well. I've never heard anyone complain about the Elliot Page article using he/him pronouns throughout the article, even though Page uses both he/him and they/them pronouns. If Bella comes out and says she prefers they/them pronouns, then we can always change the article later. I think the status quo of the article is best, but if you disagree and want to get this article's pronoun use changed, your best option is to start a Wikipedia:Requests for comment. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:52, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

The issue here is that Bella doesn't say what pronouns are best. In fact, Bella might as well have shrugged and said "Whatever". The sources are very clear that Bella doesn't care, does not care. Let that sink in. The painting you are trying to paint is that cis editors on Wikipedia are trying to force something based on their preconceived biases about this person's gender status or lack of one but the real bias and attempted forcing is being done by the supporters of this particular pov edit warring on the article and frequenting this talk page writing walls of text claiming something that isn't true mixed with some things that they simply don't understand. Wikipedia is all about Status Quo until there is a need to change that can be explicitly sourced somewhere else. Wikipedia is a tertiary source meaning it moves extremely slow at changing and must not be the first to state anything. In my spare time, which I have had little of late, I have been an activist for underrepresented groups. I can unequivocally state that Wikipedia is not the place for activism but for reasoned discussions within the framework of the encyclopedia policies. We do not create something that is not already there simply because we know it is socially accepted unless it can be sourced therefore removing our need to know. If you want pronoun changes then present sources where Bella explicitly claims what pronouns to use, or open a RfC as stated (not recommended but is an option), or accept that until sources are presented Wikipedia will go with what is presented in the article (Status Quo). --ARoseWolf 18:16, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Two excerpts from a recent GQ magazine interview with Bella Ramsey, published on 13 February 2023:

#1: "In January, she revealed in a New York Times profile that she self-defines as non-binary. (Ramsey says she doesn’t mind what pronouns are used for her, and elected to use she/her for this interview.)"

#2: "Ramsey may not define herself as a woman, but that doesn't mean that playing women isn't a gratifying experience, or is something that makes her uncomfortable. “This is what bothers me more than pronouns: being called a ‘young woman’ or a ‘powerful young woman’, ‘young lady,’ but I'm just not [that],” she says."

1.11.10.69 (talk) 23:22, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

It should be "actor" not "actress" because gendered job titles are obsolete these days ("server" not "waiter/waitress", "flight attendant" not "stewardess", "police officer" not "policeman/woman", etc.). "She/her" is better than "they/them" because the subject has expressed a lack of preference, it's what the MSM use (and I certainly think NYTimes gets more weight than Them magazine), and gendered English pronouns are less confusing than singular they. If Ramsey preferred gender-neutral pronouns, then we should certainly use them, but she's said she doesn't care, the best sources use gendered pronouns, and readers will find gendered pronouns easier to read. Levivich (talk) 16:58, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

OK - another new perspective - pronouns - no direct comment on how it is. Need to add something in first screen visible some about - what about in the infobox? - add a bottom line to it for "identifies as"- unknown on my part if Wikipedia will aloo that. - having no idea of her status as I start reading my first thought was either page vandelized, or some with their English very Poor. Humm - They/ them is third person plural this is still only a single human being is being written about. - under that logic - perhap IT is better, but that is de-humanizing. Wfoj3 (talk) 21:40, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@Wfoj3: They/them is a singular pronoun, not only plural, so it is used correctly here. It is absolutely not better, as Ramsey does not explicitly identify by that pronoun. I don't entirely disagree with the inclusion of pronouns in the infobox, but that would be a discussion for Template talk:Infobox person. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 00:24, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Totally correct but as the page covers a female actor the terms "she" and "her" can also be freely used. These terms correctly relate to her being a woman as much as "they" and "them" relate to her current feelings on her sexuality or relationship preferences. Colinc1000 (talk) 23:59, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

This article does not cover a "female actor", and their pronouns have absolutely zero relevance to their "sexuality or relationship preferences". – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 00:04, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Unless the world has skipped into the realms of fantasy, this article is about a female actor who has stated that pronouns of "She" and "Her" are fine in reference to her just as much as using "They" and "Them". I suggest that logic is applied here and people use whatever is proper and comfortable to them. People are not sexless robots and are born with a set of chromosomes that dictate their sex of being either male or female. Whatever it is they feel sexually or spiritually is irrelevant to what they are physically. In reference to the actor being female many would feel uncomfortable at giving reference to the relevant person as "They/Them" as is obvious from the boiling frustration one has experienced from English teachers, professors and older persons on such a touchy subject. Colinc1000 (talk) 02:37, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Ramsey not "a female actor"; they are non-binary. All pronouns are fine, but, per the edit notice, this article uses they/them for consistency. Their sex assignment (or "what they are physically") could not be less relevant—both to the article and to us personally—and even mentioning it here feels like a gross invasion of privacy.

As far as pronoun usage is concerned, this article abides by Wikipedia's guidelines. If you have a problem with those guidelines, I suggest you take it to WT:MOSBIO. If you have a specific suggestion about this article, I suggest you start a new discussion. And if you would like to discuss or complain about sex and gender generally, I suggest you find a different platform. Many thanks. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 03:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.