Talk:Belle Vue Zoological Gardens

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 02:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Gardens and amusement park
This article says that a ride was purchased from London Festival Gardens when it closed it 1977, but the Battersea Park article says that the Gardens closed in 1974. Is 1977 right? --Malleus Fatuarum (talk) 13:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yup, that's what my research says. As the Battersea Park article wasn't cited I amended it. -- Web H amster  14:06, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've just done a quick check on Google and can only find one mention of a 1974 closure. In fact the entry in the WP article looks like a straight copy and paste from the above site. -- Web H amster  14:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions for improvement
This is a really good article and I've done a number of minor edits which I hope makes it scan better. These are mostly a matter of style and I've done them section by section so the can be easily reverted if others don't agree. I would like to suggest a few things that could be explained further to improve clarity.

Richerman (talk) 14:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 1/ An expanation of "carting customers" in the early history section. I presume this means working men using handcarts but it could be taken refer to the sport of dog carting.
 * 2/ An explanation of the "Hollow blasted oak" in the financial difficulties section. Was this a living tree?
 * 3/The date of Ellie May's euthanasia would round off the last sentence of the paragraph.
 * 4/ In the Gardens and Amusement park section what does "the main concessioniare Al Warbuton" mean exactly?
 * 5/ There's section called "Belle Vue (Manchester) Lt. Mk 1 (or maybe it's Mkl)" - was there a Mk 2?


 * Yup, the carting customers were men using carts to transport stuff
 * 1) The section of the book that mentions this says "Jennison's own attractions began in a modest way. On 12th April 1841 a footrace was held in which John Grimshaw of Gorton beat William Walker of Stockport. In the same year. a local landmark, the "Hollow Blasted Oak" of Yew Tree Farm Gorton was moved to the Gardens after a supposed existence of 500 years."
 * 2) I don't have a date for it unfortunately, but I'll see what I can find.
 * 3) A lot of the smaller rides and attractions in the amusement park were owned and run by third parties. These sorts of rides were known as "concessions". The guy who owned the majority of them was Alf Wadbrooke.
 * Yup, I've labelled it as Mark one because, and I can't remember the dates at the mo, there was a big change round in the organisation. I suppose it can be removed for the time being as I can see that it could be confusing at the moment.

I still have to add a couple of what will end up as large sections. There were a couple of exhibition halls in the Gardens that were major venues for music contests/concerts, wrestling matches and various other events. The speedway section still has quite a bit of info to be added. In fact, there is still a lot more info to be added all round. So much so I'm wondering if sub-pages may be the way to go. For example, I have a list of all the battle enactment firework displays, c/w their date and title. I have no idea where to put it, if indeed it should be put anywhere. To give an idea The Belle Vue story is 84 pages of A4 size containing 3 column text in 10pt Courier. There's an amazing amount of info in it. Obviously a lot of it is unsuitable for inclusion but even figuring out what is what is suitable and what isn't is part of the problem for me. So basically what I'll do is add what I think is probably suitable and you guys can trim out the chaff? There's so much info in the one book I've had to scan it into a PDF so I can do text searches. The info is all over the place and not always in chronological order. BTW, many thanks to both of you for your overseeing me, it's much appreciated. -- Web H amster  14:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Glad to help, its an excellent article. Have you found anything about the fea circus? I remember seeing it in the 60's in a tiny circular booth - these things were a real historical curiousity. Richerman (talk) 15:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure have: "New attractions for 1960 included a flea circus, run by a "Professor" Tomlin and his wife, and a side show called Invisible Rays. Pepino and his miniature circus now featured regularly all year round and Belle Vue became a place of retirement for the circus's ageing proprietor.". This is what I mean, there are stacks of little things like this, but I have no idea what should be included and what shouldn't. So I'll work on the assumption that I should put them in, then let someone else take them out if they are so inclined. I do have to say though, that this is also a blast from the past for me too, I'm also finding it very interesting which is the main reason I bought the books after loaning them from the library. I didn't want to give them back but luckily found them on Amazon, who only had one of each in stock! -- Web H amster  16:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well the flea circus is so unlikely to happen now that I would have thought it should go in. Of, course, the difficulty is not to copy the whole book but you're doing fine so far. I saw the book "The story of Belle Vue" the other day in the Salford history library on the Crescent and I expect they also sell it in the little shop on Picadilly Station Approach which has a load of those thin, A4 sized, local history titles. I bought the one called "Cheetham Hill and Broughton in Regency and Victorian Times" which has a bit about the Zoo in Broughton. I'll see if there is anything useful to add from there and maybe do a seperate article about it although it would probably only be a stub. Funnily enough the house there was called "Bella Vista"! I used to go to Saturday night dances in the Elizabethan Hall too. We would bop about in one room in our "trendy gear" and then go and laugh at the ballroom dancers looking all serious in the next room. And of course Jimmy Saville began his DJ career at the Top Ten Club there. Richerman (talk) 16:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * In that case I shall certainly add the flea circus in. This PDF is proving rather useful now seeing how the info is all over the place, whilst searching for "flea" for the above quote, I found on another page the reason the flea circus shut down. Apparently it was because fleas were starting to become increasingly more difficult to obtain. Sort of like plumber I suppose!


 * Yes you're right about not putting the whole book in, it's so tempting :)


 * The only thing I can remember about the place when I was a kid is standing behind that large plate glass window waiting for the splash from the water chute. As I worked at Belle Vue Ambulance Station in the 80s I had to pass the main entrance (or at least where it was) so still have relatively recent memories about the buildings there.


 * As an aside, whilst starting the research for this I was amazed to discover that there was a rather large prison, called Belle Vue Prison on Hyde Road in West Gorton, it was knocked down as unsafe in 1890. Jennison, being a pack rat, used a load of the jail's building blocks to construct the rhino enclosure. I suppose that little factoid should go in too :) -- Web H amster  19:55, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey guess what? googled "flea circus" and found a few references including a wikipedia article, so it looks like there's an opportunity to do a two way link there as they only list a couple of famous flea circus's. My main memory of Belle Vue as a kid is the water chute as well. I used to try and keep my eyes open when the water hit the glass but could never do it! Richerman (talk) 22:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well it's a definite inclusion then :) Not only that, I've found a pic of the front of the place. It's needs some cleanup in Photoshop, so when I've finished it I'll upload it and add it to the article.-- Web H amster  23:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Question
Looks like a well-written, well-reserached article. Well done. There seems to be some differences between your account of Belle Vue Speedway/Greyhound racing and the account given at Belle Vue (greyhound racing). Can you throw any light on that? I would tend to go with your article, because I think the other is s copy/precis of a poorly researched piece available on the net. But I do understand that the Belle Vue track, operated by the Greyhound Racing Association opened in 1926 - (was there more than one?). Gentle was apparently one of the founders. Grateful for any additional sourced info you can offer. hjuk (talk) 13:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * To be honest I haven't really done much research on that section, but I do know from my own local knowledge that the speedway stadium and greyhound track were separate. The Belle Vue Speedway stadium was on the grounds of Belle Vue down at the bottom of Kirkmanshulme Lane near Redgate Lane, whereas the greyhound track as it stands now is at the top end of Kirkmanshulme Lane. I've only had a brief read through of the relevant sections in the books so I'm not 100% sure of what, where and how things were at the very beginning.


 * Here's a relevant section:


 * So it sounds like the current location is the original site and may have been a temporary venue for the speedway right at the very beginning until the speedway stadium was built. I'll see what else I can find out. -- Web H amster  13:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Most helpful. Thank you so much for your trouble. Might it be possible for me to ask you for the Nicholls book ISBN, publisher & pub date? hjuk (talk) 21:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You'll find them in the article's Bibliography section just above the references, the publisher is Neil Richardson Richerman (talk) 22:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Guardian Article
I came across an article in the Guardian Archives from April 1st, 1926, searching under William Gentle. It is a report of an early shareholders meeting. It answers my question above. I thought it may be of interest to editors of this article. You can get a 24hr free pass to the sie by entering, if I remember rightly, "ARCHIVRFREE" in the appropriate space - if the code's wrong, you can find it by searching on Google. hjuk (talk) 12:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Belle Vue or Gorton?
Just wondering why we have "Belle Vue, Gorton, Manchester"? Not a challenge as such, it's just I always thought Belle Vue and Gorton as distinct areas. Am I wrong? --Jza84 | Talk  01:06, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yup, there has never been an official area called Belle Vue, it's always been a part of Gorton. The area known unofficially as BV only became such after the Zoo was established. The BV area comes under the M18 postal code, i.e. Gorton. -- Web H amster  01:10, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair dos! Good stuff even... I'll try to clarify that on the Belle Vue page too so as to help any equally confused readers as me.


 * P.S. Great to see you back WebHamster! --Jza84 | Talk  01:13, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Why thank you :blush: :)


 * Actually I've just looked at the Belle Vue, Greater Manchester article which is totally wrong. It's not an official "district" and it's not in M12. It came close to the Longsight border, but no part of the gardens actually crossed the border. -- Web H amster  01:20, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * That any better? --Jza84 | Talk  01:33, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh much... and so fast too! :)


 * Having said that though, I'm not sure the bordering areas in the table are quite right. Debdale isn't actually an official area (as my snobbish ex-wife insists as she lives there... and thinks it sounds nicer than plain old Gorton!!) and is just an unofficially named part of Gorton in a similar way to BV. Plus the fact that plain old Gorton exists between BV and Debdale Park. Similarly Rusholme doesn't actually border BV as Longsight exists between Rusholme and BV. Though arguably I suppose Chorlton-on-Medlock could be considered to be bordering in a similar way to Debdale having West Gorton between it and BV. BV itself is actually quite small (especially considering the true size of Gorton itself) and only really exists within the triangle of Hyde Rd, Kirkmanshulme Lane and Redgate Lane/Pottery Lane then within the smaller triangle of Belle Vue St, Hyde Road and Pottery Lane, i.e. the other side of Hyde Road. An area I'm quite well up on as I worked from Belle Vue Ambulance Station for a number of years in the late 80s. -- Web H amster  03:33, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Oops, major brain fart here. Ardwick is of course between C-on-M and West Gorton. -- Web H amster  13:59, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Pyrodramas
I was looking on Google books and came across this which is rather interesting - it's all about the pyrodamas at Belle Vue in the 19th century. A google books search on "Belle Vue Zoological Gardens" comes up with quite a bit of informationRicherman (talk) 23:03, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I had referred to them, albeit in minimal detail, in the fireworks section. I've called them fireworks, the references I had called them both. TBH I didn't really spend a lot of time on the section because I was trying to get a minimal amount on the page about everything and I had yet to cover the 50s and 60s era with the dancehalls etc... I've been otherwise distracted of late otherwise I would have filled everything out in more detail. Belle Vue and Broughton were very much in contest with each other and Jennison was always trying to find ways to outdo them, hence the pyrodramas. I do have a lot of info in the books in the bibliography that I haven't touched on yet, but when I get a chance I will indeed have a butcher's through google books with the link you gave. I have had a quick look and yes it does look interesting. So much so I was going to have a stab at buying the book from Amazon UK, until I saw the price! £165.29. Yeah right, I'll have two :) -- Web H amster  23:25, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh well, just as well there's a free preview! It looks like the pyrodaramas of that time would make a decent article themselves - it seems that's how Pain's fireworks started out. I was looking for information on the Broughton Zoo when I found that - I'm sure it would be worth a small article - I seem to remember seeing a map of the Broughton Zoo in Salford Local History library and it's mentioned in a few google books. Good to see you back on this article anyway. Richerman (talk) 23:46, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've been meaning to as there's an awful lot I haven't added, but real life isn't giving me the opportunity to sit down, do the reading then convert that into adequate prose for the article. The books are on my shelf just longing to be read. It's not helped of late my dissatisfaction with the project as a whole, but hopefully I'll soon get my act together. This is a pet project for me, along with the Jennison family themselves. I started a userfied subpage article on John Jennison but as in the main article I haven't got round to filling that out either. But yes I agree, the Belle Vue Pyrodramas would make a good article in its own right. -- Web H amster  11:11, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Financial difficulties
"By this time the whole Jennison family were involved in the Belle Vue project. Although the Zoo thrived in its early years, by 1842 Jennison was having financial troubles, and on 13 December 1842 bankruptcy proceedings were initiated against him. The money problems were caused in part by Jennison's failure to sell the Strawberry Gardens property and partly due to the new Manchester & Birmingham Railway—the track cutting through the plot Jennison had leased in December 1836, which cut off the approach from Stockport Road—and partly to the competition from the new Manchester Zoological Gardens at Higher Broughton."

Alan Kidd in his book Manchester: A History states that the zoological gardens at Higher Broughton closed in 1840 and the Jennison aquired it's stock. Kidd's book is a general one, so may not be correct or may be missing some details (maybe the place at Higher Broughton was reopened) but the above quote doesn't seem quote right. Nev1 (talk) 14:19, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not certain that Kidd's right in this case. Manchester Zoological Gardens appears to have closed down in 1842. Perhaps worth an article in its own right ... --Malleus Fatuorum 14:36, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, I have found that on at least one occasion before (relating to Manchester Cathedral in the same book) he has been inexplicably wrong. Nev1 (talk) 14:39, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Also from Kidd
He says that New King's Hall at Belle Vue was "the leading boxing venue in Europe". He's not specific, but this was probably in the 1930s which was the "golden age" of boxing in Manchester. Perhaps not enough to add to the article now, but if more can be found it would make a nice quote. Nev1 (talk) 14:29, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Stackhouse and Hyams say much the same thing: "The 1920s were a great time for boxing in Manchester, and Belle Vue became one of the best venues in Europe." Things seem to have gone downhill after the Second World War, but there was still a world title fight between Willie Pastrano and Terry Downes held there in 1964. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:51, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Copyediting
Please be aware that some of the wording I've used is used deliberately so as to avoid infringing the copyright of the reference source I'm using. I've noticed that when other editors are copyediting the article they are changing the wording back to almost the identical wording used in the reference sources. Please don't change things merely because you think they look better when worded differently, you could actually be changing them to the version I've tried to avoid. If you don't have copies of the reference source could you please be very careful when making subjective edits. Thanks. --The Pink Oboe (talk) 15:21, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


 * If the editor making the change hasn't actually seen the original version and therefore can't be copying it, then there can be no question of copyright violation. Sometimes there are rather limited ways of stating a simple fact. That's one of the downsides of the increasingly onerous "one citation per sentence" brigade. I think it's rather absurd to avoid the best wording simply because you didn't think of it first. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:49, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I have to agree on the absurdity, but my point wasn't about the individual editors breaching copyright, it's about the end result making the project breach copyright. After all, copyright is copyright regardless of whether its infringement is deliberate or not. Anyway, I just thought I'd point out why occasionally my wording is a little awkward. I went to great pains to make sure that I wasn't copying the sources word for word, even though it was a pain in the ass sometimes. --The Pink Oboe (talk) 16:58, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think anyone could be concerned about the odd sentence or two closely reflecting the text of a cited source, particularly if it's accidental. I get concerned when I see passages of text that have clearly been copied, not just a few consecutive words that appear to best express the idea. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:25, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Kings Hall
This is one big ol' article! I think Kings Hall deserves its own article by itself. Do we all agree? It's so famous Rod Stewart performed there on many occasions! Evangp (talk) 07:44, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

No comment by anyone on this matter? Evangp (talk) 19:16, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * If you can find enough reliable material on Kings Hall then go for it. It wouldn't make any difference to the size of this article though. Malleus Fatuorum 21:01, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I was thinking about copying and pasting the info from this article to Kings Hall main article as I think there is already enough info to merit its own article. All I can add differently is an extensive list of performers. Would this be okay? Evangp (talk) 21:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you'd need more than that, otherwise the article would very likely be nominated for deletion. You might try looking through the MEN archive and see what you can find there. Malleus Fatuorum 21:20, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

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Showcase
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