Talk:Billie Holiday/Archive 2

Marriage of Billie's parents
There is an inconsistency between the page for Clarence Holiday and this. Clarence Holiday's page states that he never married Billie's mother, yet this states that her parents married when she was three. Farseeker (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:41, 23 December 2009 (UTC).

no albums ?
there clearly should be a list of her albums in this article... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.141.128.28 (talk • contribs) 13:58, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I have added a list of albums released during her lifetime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tal1962 (talk • contribs) 19:12, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Which you've done beautifully, Tal 1962. Thanks.--Abie the Fish Peddler (talk) 17:53, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Stuart Nicholson's biography
I deleted an edit that changed "not much is known..." to "A great deal is known for certain about her very early life via two biographies: Stuart Nicholson's "Billie Holiday" and Donald Clarke's Wishing On the Moon..." I know Stuart Nicholson's books have been questioned as poorly researched and full of mistakes. Donald Clarke (writer), however, is a much better scholar and writer. Anyway, the tone of the sentence was changed 180 degrees, and I think that merits discussion. Let's find a review of Clarke's book that lauds it as very accurate and as complete as possible, and leave it at that. Binksternet (talk) 13:59, 14 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay, I found two sources that think highly of Nicholson's scholarship: "Billie Holiday Film to be Shot in Connecticut", May 20, 2008, and Encyclopedia of Jazz Musicians: "Billie Holiday". Carry on... Binksternet (talk) 14:43, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for telling me what I already knew! No offense, but you had it backwards. It is the Clarke book that has SO many errors. Nicholson not only has taped interviews with all of the people I mentioned in my rewrite, I have traced many of his links at the back of his book and found EVERYTHING he wrote to be correct. --Tal1962 (talk) 14:46, 14 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Additional perspective comes from Phillip D. Atteberry, Professor of Music at the University of Pittsburgh, who writes in 1996 ("Two Biographies of Billie Holiday") that Clarke's book speaks through the voices of its sources, and is subject to the skewed perspectives and poorly memories that some of the sources have. He writes that Nicholson was the better researcher. Binksternet (talk) 14:56, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I've read his review too. Not sure if you have both books (I do, as well as fifteen others about Holiday). But if you do, go through the early chapters (or even the index) and there is almost no mention of the Miller family despite the fact that at the time of his writing the book, most of them were still alive. On top of all this, after Nicholson PROOVED that Clarke's book had so many factual errors, Clarke went around spreading all kinds of rumors about Nicholson and his book. I have an article from the NY Times in 1996 and his statements are quite awful. I am told (although I have no proof) that Nicholson sued and won a case against Clarke for the public allegations he made. --Tal1962 (talk) 15:16, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Discrepancy--Birth Name
There are two different birth names mentioned--Elinore Harris and Eleanora Fagan. Which is correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.116.231.214 (talk) 00:01, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Biography - many questions
The biography section of this article is a pile of hash. It looks like, in editing, contributors have put things all out of order and added references that may once have been explained but now dangle incomprehensibly. A sampling: - The official "first reference" to her mother (fourth paragraph) comes after three paragraphs of digression/expounding on Billie's parentage and the origins of her stage name. Hello, chronology? - WTH is "transportation jobs"? Is this a euphemism or was she a sleeper car attendant? - Who is Frank DeVeazy? The references in context suggest that something about him is known to contributors beyond his mere appearance on the birth certificate. - We go through five paragraphs of this jumble before there's any attempt at outlining these events in chronological order. - Eighth para, "Towards the end of ...," is it just me or does "in the act of having sex with" seem inappropriate when referring to an adult male and an 11-year-old? Is there some reason we're not saying "raping"?

It goes on and on. The only other query I will bother to make now is to ask who is being quoted in the final paragraph in the section "Early singing career." ("Well, I think you can hear that on some of the old records...")

I will take a stab at editing this but, as I have referenced above, there are some questions of fact about existing contributions that I don't know the answers to. --Pergish1 (talk) 01:27, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Bisexuality
Why have the references to the singer's well-attested bisexuality been removed from this article? Vauxhall1964 (talk) 20:31, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Chart Info
I've found a website that has Billie's chart info from the 30s, 40s, and 50s. Here is the url: http://tsort.info/music/m8ravs.htm. Can someone make a discography page for her? Floetry Spades (talk) 15:19, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I found yet another website with the same chart info: http://ntl.matrix.com.br/pfilho/html/top40/. This makes the chart info seem even more accurate. Can someone please make a discography page for Billie showing her chart placements? Chart info for Ella Fitzgerald, Frank Sinatra and her other contemporaries are available. They should be available for Billie as well. Floetry Spades (talk) 05:17, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Extra in "Emperor Jones"?
"In 1933, Billie Holiday appeared as an extra in Paul Robeson's The Emperor Jones." I cannot find a smidgeon of evidence in the bios of either person supporting this assertion, but would be very interested to be informed of it.Anarchristian (talk) 13:37, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Birth name
Evidently Clarke and Nicholson have reached different conclusions concerning Holiday's birth name. The article currently cites Clarke. Do editors want to change to Nicholson? If so, please cite the source; don't merely change the name. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 22:03, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * How about explaining the fact that experts disagree, and citing them both? Binksternet (talk) 22:45, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a reasonable solution to me.  Pinkadelica ♣  23:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Article improvement
I would like to see this article improved; the subject deserves it. At this point, I simply don't have the time or inclination to do what it most needs: a complete re-edit and re-write. That would mean needing to do a batch of research, and getting access to materials. This article is in need of an expert, something I am not, either about Holiday or about her music. That being said, though, I think that a good place to start is this article's sources. The format is lacking, and I think that's a good place to start in improving it in general. Who knows, that may inspire me to find out more and buy the books and recordings one would need. At this point, I'll tackle the sources in the next few days. Christine (talk) 12:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Good on you, I'd love to see this article improved. I'd like to help, if I can, although I don't have any of the source material either. I will see if I can get hold of any of the books.-- Beloved Freak  15:09, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Awesome. Looking over the sources, I'm not so sure about them.  One, for example, is a YA book; not that there's anything wrong with that, but I'm sure there are better sources.  I should at least get Lady Sings the Blues.  Ah, I can already tell that I'm gonna fall in love with this article.  It'll be a good change of pace for me, anyway. Christine (talk) 16:01, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Which is the YA book? I'm not familiar with any of them, but I've just been looking at a couple (apart from anything to see which would be ones I can reasonably afford!) I think the Nicholson and Clarke ones look ok, do you agree? Both seem to have had good reviews anyway. I personally would love to have Fine and Mellow: A Discography of Billie Holiday, as I'd really like to start a separate discography to split that list off from the main article. That book may be a little more difficult to get hold of though, at least here in the UK.-- Beloved Freak  16:08, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Stuart Nicholson's Billie Holiday must be on the reading list. The definitive work. Binksternet (talk) 16:23, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I see it's already been used quite a lot in the article. I'll definitely try and get my hands on that one.-- Beloved Freak  16:45, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * An excellent article on Lady Day is long overdue. I'll help all I can. As well as Nicholson, get Wishing on the Moon by Donald Clarke and With Billie by Julia Blackburn. We are fortunate she has had several good books written about her. Most jazz singers are lucky to get one by Leslie Gourse. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 22:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Chris Albertson interview
As I'm cleaning up the refs in this article, I've found some interesting things. One of the sources used is referred to as Interview with Chris Albertson over WHAT-FM, Philadelphia. I added the template because it needed it. I also did a short google search for this interview and came up empty. This could be an important source, so I was wondering if anyone out there knows how to access it. I suspect that it's utilized in another source, like the Nicholson source. Christine (talk) 12:52, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Floetry Spades (talk) 22:35, 3 October 2010 (UTC) I found part of the Chris Albertson interview on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3gXc1fybYs.

Photograph
Great to have the Gottlieb photo of Holiday.Parkwells (talk) 19:05, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Just a rejoicer
I love the cross referencing of "pregnant", good job in a way, but... shan't we be referencing "to be" at some point? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frederic Y Bois (talk • contribs) 13:26, 18 February 2011 (UTC)