Talk:Carl Czerny

Czerny's descendants ???
I understand that Czerny never married and left no descendants. However, the pianist Halina Czerny-Stefanska (co-winner of the 1949 International Frederick Chopin Piano Competition) said that her father claimed to be descended from the composer. At least one of these statements must be wrong. Can anybody shed any light? Cheers JackofOz 00:13, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Any info yet about this query?? JackofOz 14:05, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe it was a previously unkwnown illegitimate child who took up his father's name.

Piotr (This unsigned comment was provided by user 192.136.22.4 at 15:55, 22 February 2006)


 * Thanks for the suggestion. Maybe her father was mistaken, or exaggerated his lineage.  Or maybe he was descended from a collateral Czerny, not Carl personally.  JackofOz 06:00, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Update. I've just come across her article in Grove V (where she's listed as Stefanska-Czerny, not Czerny-Stefanska).  There, it states baldly that her father Stanislaw Czerny was a direct descendant of Karl Czerny, so it wasn't just her claiming this.  Yet, in the same dictionary's entry for Karl Czerny, it says he never married, had no siblings, and left no close relatives.  Sometimes I just don't know who to believe.  --  JackofOz (talk) 19:48, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, a strange situation, cause i know that my family is related to him. I could bring even pictures. My father and my uncle as the same me and my brother are looking so similar to him and got for generation the second name carl, that is no coexident. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abendmahl23 (talk • contribs) 22:45, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

In response to the above mentioned.... my husband is a descendant of Carl Czerny.... he is related as great- great- great- great- great- great- great uncle of my husband. The gift of music has been passed down from generation to generation. My husband's family originated in Prague and migrated to the US in the early 1900's. I would love any information from other family members. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 3flagatorz (talk • contribs) 14:13, 25 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry to burst your bubble, but no matter how many "greats" there are, your husband is not descended from any of his uncles. Not directly descended, that is. He's what's called a collateral descendant.  They share the same DNA, but they got it from a common third-party source, not one from the other.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   11:12, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

CD recommendation
I just deleted the final phrase "These are strongly recommended.". If you feel the need, add a more objective qualification. I think that the whole last paragraph ("Signum records just released...") should be deleted or rewritten (I suggest "see also" link with reference to the CD). &mdash; MFH:Talk 19:32, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Removed links
I have removed

* About how to practice Czerny on piano read The Golden Fingers Technique

because I consider it an advertising that is not directly relevant to the article. --Leonard Vertighel 22:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I also have removed

*For unknown sheet music by Carl Czerny

as per External links - number 4: "Links to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services." The above website sells the sheet music. I couldn't find any free content. --Leonard Vertighel 09:20, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

IPA?
How do you pronounce "Czerny"? ALTON  .ıl  23:58, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I have heard it pronounced with a "ch" as in "choo-choo" and to rhyme with "square-knee". (Sorry, I don't know any of the fancy pronounciation indications!)

Mlbish 15:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Well How I pronounce it (as it is my last name aswell) Is "zer-ni" With the "C" silent, but then again I don't know alot about the name's origins for my family. Pariny (talk) 20:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC) Some guy with the last name Czerny
 * What is your native language/country? Infovarius (talk) 09:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The standard pronunciation is "cherny". The e and the r should not be construed like the English "er", but as separate, and the r is rolled.  It has cognates with other Slavic languages, such as the Russian чёрный, pronounced "chorny".  It means "black".  --  JackofOz (talk) 09:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Infovarius, Well like I said, i have no idea what the origin of my name is. I was born in America and speak "American english". When I was 3 my mother divorced my father for some good reasons, and so contact with my fathers side/origins is next to nothing. As for the correct pronounciation I really don't know, that just what we always used. (Though I am interested in finding my origin if anyone has further information on any Czerny Family trees.) Pariny (talk) 10:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC) Some guy with the last name Czerny

The link http://www.tal-groethuysen.de/czernycd.htm Carl "Czerny: Piano Music for four hands" is broken

I agree with JackofOz on this one, but with one minor variation: the proper pronunciation of the name Czerny would equate to something like "Chernee" if you tracked it down to its Czech roots; with the sharp rolled "r" that is found in most languages but not English. Highschoolpuppettier (talk) 19:36, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Media
Currently, the media section looks a little messed up as far as formatting goes. Can someone fix it so that it looks better?--Edward130603 (talk) 19:52, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Czerny´s Nocturnes
I think this section makes a questionable claim. It's true that in the link to the interview with Ms Oehmichen she does assert that Czerny's nocturnes were written before Chopin's. But she also gives the date of publication of the last (Op. 647) as 1841 which makes it contemporaneous with Chopin's Op. 48 set, his sixth set! I can find no definite publication date for Czerny's first set but its opus number, Op. 368, suggest it was circa 1835, by which time Chopin had written ten, about half of his twenty-one nocturnes. Granted date of publication is not the same as date of composition but if is there any evidence that Czerny wrote his nocturnes in the 1820s and played them to Chopin? Tiresias13 (talk) 17:55, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

At the beginning of the 1820s and before Czerny´s Op.368 8 Nocturnes, Czerny had written 3 Nocturnes that did not enter the collection of Isabelle Oehmichen: Op.71 - Nocturne Brilliant after "Das waren mir selige Tage, for Piano 4-Hands; Op.165 - Grand Nocturne Brillant for Piano 4-Hands and Op.253 - Le Golfe de Naples, Tableau Nocturne or Fantasie Pittoresque. These scores are not published so we can not know if they follow the same style of Opus 368. The exact date of the composition of the Nocturnes Op 368 is uncertain and perhaps we will never know it. Are they prior to the visit of Chopin? Possibly, yes. Or have been them a result of the encounter of both in 1828? The fact is, from now on it is impossible to say that Chopin can not have suffered some influence of Czerny in his Nocturnes. Czerny and Chopin were friends and respected each other. Chopin stayed in the house of Czerny in 1828 and it is difficult to imagine that there has not been an exchange between them. As in every exchange, Czerny must have absorbed some influences from Chopin and Chopin from Czerny. To know the exact proportion of such influences it would be necessary to know the exact date of composition of the Opus 368 and the musical nature of Czerny´s previous 3 (maybe more of 3..) Nocturnes (a good task for musicologists). But, for sure, the discover of Czerny´s Nocturnes is very welcome in the process of recognizing of the musical and artistic value of Carl Czerny music, whose vast production, unlike happened to Chopin´s music, was unfairly relegated and neglected in the past centuries. Let´s continue this talk! Carlczernyblog (talk) 21:14, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

We did an improvement in this section writing to attend this demand in the conversation. Carlczernyblog (talk) 21:44, 13 February 2013 (UTC) :)

This article needs major reworking
I'm not an expert on Czerny by any means, but this article is very problematic. The biographical sections are completely separated ("early life" at the beginning and "adult life" at the very end). Most of the article seems devoted to vindicating Czerny's reputation as a composer of "serious" music and over-enthusiastically hyping the modern "rediscovery" of his music, rather than providing clear and coherent information about the composer - an encyclopedia entry is the wrong avenue to publish this sort of gushy polemic/paean. The constant references to the same modern musicians and recordings (Botstein, Kuerti, Martin Jones and the Sheridan Ensemble) seem totally out of place too. While there is plenty of information buried within, someone with expertise should work on presenting it in a coherent, objective and informative manner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.48.60 (talk) 21:30, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

We are working hard on this Czerny page! We appreciate all the help to improve this page, and to show to the wikipedia community that a musical genius, neglected for two hundred years is now beginning to be rediscovered. In fact, we know almost nothing about Czerny, not even a biography of him was written. The German Czerny´s page, which should address this issue in depth, is quite weak. Fortunately, we have now this page in english. It is still incomplete, but it is a step forward. Soon there will be more information here, much more. We are working hard on that! Carlczernyblog (talk) 03:58, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Czerny´s Nationality
I do not understand why Czerny is listed as an Austrian composer. After all, his family was from Nymburk, his first language was Czech, his last name was Czech (though spelt using Polish orthography) and he did not speak German until the age of ten. Clearly there must be some nationalist bias on this page and it should be made clear (for the sake of national pride) that Czerny was a Czech, because living in the Austrian empire does not automatically make one Austrian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Highschoolpuppettier (talk • contribs) 09:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but out of all the injustices suffered by Czerny this is new! Czerny, a legitimate Austrian citizen born in Vienna, the city where he spent his entire life and for which he bequeathed his fortune by will is not an Austrian?? Czerny never even visited Czechoslovakia!! Sorry again, but this review is is totally mistaken! Carlczernyblog (talk) 16:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I am sorry, but I would say that it is a larger injustice when in the first paragraph introducing the composer, there is no mention of his Czech heritage. I do not know how much you know about Czerny´s life, but I must confess that I am slightly puzzled by your comment, saying that Czerny never visited Czechoslovakia, which does not exist now, nor did it exist during his life. However, using the information from the text, it is evident that Czerny was and therefore should be treated at least partially as a Czech. I repeat, if his family was Czech and his native tongue was Czech too, he should be treated as a citizen of the Austrian Empire, but a Czech by heritage. Historically, under the Austrian Empire, people of different nationalities moved around the country without losing a sense of national identity. Czerny, as is mentioned in the article, did not speak German until the age of ten, which would be a pretty strange thing for a full-fledged Austrian. I do not think calling him at least a partial Czech is an injustice; however it is an injustice when one tries do deny his roots. Highschoolpuppettier (talk) 18:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry if I was harsh in my other post, forgive me. Rejecting your appeal that Czerny is not an Austrian composer only meets the need to rid Czerny from the prejudice he suffered, in Vienna, as a Czech descent. We know from historical studies that, at that time, a Viennese from a Czech family (Boehmia) was discriminated in Vienna. Perhaps because of this absurd bias, the work of Czerny was (and still is) little valued in Austria. However, where is Czerny really valuated as a composer as he deserves? Nowhere. Canadians had started to did it, but only in the early twentieth century. If the Czechs could help, it would be wonderful. There is an important Czerny piano competition in Prague. We are not from Austria and we think that the Austrians should take better care of the legacy of this great son of Vienna. An element that speaks about the Austrian roots of Czerny-s heart is his use of Austrian folk songs in his variations and the fact that he set to music the anthem of Austria (composed from Haydn) for piano and orchestra. But, as you said, nationality was not a hard concept at that time. Czerny was, above all, a Viennese person. Czerny worked hard to be accepted as a Viennese composer but, apparently, he had not achieve that until today. The fact that Czerny had not visited Bohemia was not a slight, but due the fact he really hardly traveled. However, nothing indicates that he renege the Czech roots of his beloved parents. Carlczernyblog (talk) 19:36, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for that acknowledgement; I did not mean to say that Czerny was completely Czech, but that it would be fair if people would at least keep this in mind when speaking of him and of his nationality. I see it as slightly sad that the world sees things from the German-Austrian perspective, rather than from the Czech one and that many important people from the country are better known under their German names (Johann Stamitz/Jan Štamic, Franz Benda/František Benda, Franz Krommer/František Kramář, etc.). Though Czerny is not one of these, he still does hold a place alongside the Czech composers as well as the Austrian ones and (as you said yourself) it is lamentable that he is rather "neglected." Highschoolpuppettier (talk) 19:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Hello, I have just discovered that Czerny visited Bohemia, he visited Nymburg! Carlczernyblog (talk) 15:06, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Heidelberg Bridge and Ring
Under Homages and Tributes, the Czerny Bridge and the Czernyring in Heidelberg are more likely named after Vincenz Czerny. The German Wikipedia page for Vincenz Czerny mentions the same bridge and ring. Obepan (talk) 20:24, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Homages and Tributes
Why were the homages and tributes removed? I will reinstate if no reason is given, in case this was a mistake. EmperorOfTrebizond (talk) 08:50, 24 September 2014 (UTC)