Talk:Christian Michelides

gründung wiener
warum mir das erst in der spanischen version auffällt - zwischen gründer und an neu gegründeter zeitschrift gleich mitgearbeitet ist ja doch a bisserl nen unterschied, was stimmt denn jetzt? dann fehlt ja was in der deutschen version.--Das-Geheimnis-der-Sphinx (talk) 21:45, 30 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I put that into google translator since this is English WP and most people probably can't understand it. I don't know if this translation will be much easier to understand though:


 * Title- Founding Wiener. Text- why I do notice the first version in Spanish - between magazine and founder of newly born is the same but yes worked bisserl a result of different, what's wrong now? yes then what is missing in the German version


 * Good luck. HotshotCleaner (talk) 21:52, 30 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Difficult to explain: The Ur-WIENER (founded by Lebisch, Winkler and a third guy, without C.M.) did not survive, there were only three issues. The 2nd foundation was carried out by Gert Winkler alone, with the financial aid of Hans Schmid, but due to bancrupcy charges Winkler could not be not listed in the masthead. Michelides was one of the first collaborators - but not a founder.--McWien (talk) 22:02, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry Hotshot, I know, here is someone who can read my German and he can answer (if he want), so i write the language I know better. @McWien - so we need an change in the Text? Because so it sounds like founder of... klingt wie hat mitgegründet - oder versteh ich das hier falsch? scheint ja nicht gaanz zu stimmen (wußte nicht, dass wer hier mitliest :-) )--Das-Geheimnis-der-Sphinx (talk) 22:10, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Authors involved in theme
There is a WP:COI in this article. As McWien therefore is blocked on German Wikipedia, the author and one of his friends now play the same game in en:WP. This friend in en:WP called Das-Geheimnis-der-Sphinx, in ge:WP the same account has another name (we know this, just have a look at the discussion pages, you'll realize at once), (And also in es:WP). There are several things not correctly sourced. The German Article is blocked as well because of edit-wars. --Robertsan (talk) 18:08, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * we = Pluralis Majestatis? and i am NOT a friend and the German Version is not blocked, because no editwar - only a mistake by you!--Das-Geheimnis-der-Sphinx (talk) 22:37, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have read (most of) the German dispute on this article, and to me it looks like sheer craziness: 340.935 Bytes discussion in the German version of this article, several edit wars, plus CU and several denunciations of vandalism, and all of this for just for nonsense (minature) changes. Gosh .... someone please protect en-WP from the spreading of this infection. Robertsan, as you are one of the reasons for this German disaster, please refrain from exporting your agenda worldwide. As in German CU debate there was no proof of COI, I will delete this reference. --90.2.196.214 (talk) 00:46, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

WP:COIN discussion
I ask that all conversations pertaining to the alleged conflict of interest be taken to the associated discussion section here at thhe conflict of interest noticeboard. Things are a little unclear at this point and I think it would be beneficial to everyone and Wikipedia if we have this conversation at a centralized location. Thank you.  Ol Yeller21 Talktome  19:34, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The disussion is going on here.--Robertsan (talk) 09:00, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Warning Robertsan
Warning user Robertsan because of his vandalism in this article, see McWien (talk) 21:49, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid he will not discuss - i asked on another page here, where the rules are that he will prevail here, but no answer - i guess he makes his own rules and really, he even changed things we have in the german version - as a consense, he really seems to be a man on a mission (against christian michelides, don't know why, but i guess even he does not know the reason), he almost ridiculous with big mistakes in the german version, if he need this here too...--Das-Geheimnis-der-Sphinx (talk) 22:31, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The answer is here.McWien (talk) 01:48, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Why I consider Robertsan's changes to be vandalistic
Frankly I admit, that I have lost my temper in der German WP because of arguments ignored and reality denied. Therefore I was blocked there. I went on to work in the en:WP and have done some translation work here and created one new article, all during the last month. (I also translated this article for the Spanish WP, see ). My work has not been disputed here (nor in the Spanish WP) till Robertsan came over from the German WP. I would like to explain my concerns with Robertsan's changes in this article here, as I intend to ask for a Third Opinion. In German WP there is a bitter battle going about this article, , 22.8.2011, 10.9.2011, 21.9.2011, 30.9.2011,  30.9.2011, 6.11.2011 - a battle, by the way, that continued after I was blocked, and Robertsan is still participating in this battle. I refrain from reverting Robertsan's changes right away as I would like to - in order to prevent another edit war and the spilling over of the German battle. By the way, in German WP I was the one who shortened the article from about 14.000 bytes to approx. 6.000 bytes because - IMHO - a lot of rubbish was in there (and still is - i.e. the Germans and/or Austrians included one specific participation of Michelides in a committee meeting of parliament although he was only 1 of 13 speakers there and there was actually no press coverage of what Michelides said there, but Elisabeth59 insisted that it remain included). In German WP, I was confronted with a very hostile attitude and ungrounded suspicions and grave accusations. The climate here is all different, I feel welcomed and helped. I like very much, what OlYeller21 wrote on his userpage:
 * "Secondly, I like working with new editors. So many new editors come to WP and are bitten (almost always unintentionally) and never come back. Editors who come to Wikipedia to write about something they know intimately about show an obvious interest in WP and are often lynched for their connection which often has a bad result for everyone involved."

What kind of material do I have: six catalogues from ed. Molotov, a programme of Opfer der Pflicht, some press clippings, a very extensive CV (filed at the the ministry of health), an article from Who is Who in Österreich (13th edition) and a book by Alfred Pritz (with one article, that I didn't quote yet), plus the internet. Do I know the subject of the article: Yes, I do. Can I still be neutral: I think so, at least I try hard. Am I a fan: Not at all.

Picture with or without dog
Heavy debate in German WP about this issue, you can now compare the two versions:. I couldn't hold laughing when I noticed that now even the dog was contested. By the way, Who is Who in Österreich cited the former dog Bobby Brown. The present dog is black and supports the therapist in some sessions with emotionally disturbed patients. I really do not have an opinion if it should be in or out, but I find it ridiculous and a waste of time to remove (and censor) this nice looking animal once it is in here.

Assistent director at the Burgtheater
I think it should be in there, as it is quite unusual that a 17 or 18 yr old guy from a provincial town succeeds to get this job. It is sourced (a) in the CV, (b) in the programme of Opfer der Pflicht (by Ionesco). I do not have the programme of Der Präsident (Thomas Bernhard), but it is mentioned in the CV. By the way, I did not include the job as assistent director and actor in a Hauptmann production (1978) with Hanna Schygulla in Germany, did not include his directoral debut at the italian theatre school (Schnitzler: Reigen) in 1979, and I did not include the job as assistent to Robert Wilson in Munich in 1982, as I thought these were jobs more or less typical for a student of theatre directing.

Studies deleted
The CV cites: Who is Who in Österreich cites: I doubt about Berlin, as in the CV Berlin is mentioned much earlier (1975-77) - i.e. before the highschool diploma (1978). As was said in German WP discussion: No studies without Matura. Florence was never mentioned in the discussion till now, I think it's abdicable (too short). But Robertsan kicks out (a) Milan, (b) arts in Vienna, (c) New York. (a) and (b) is still in the German version, so why kicking it out here. I know that the subject never achieved a degree, but why do we have to delete substantial life experience?
 * 1978-80 Civica Scuola d'Arte Drammatica "Piccolo Teatro di Milano" (Regie)
 * 1980 Università degli Studi, Firenze (Kunstgeschichte)
 * 1980-81 Columbia University, New York City (Anthropologie)
 * 1978-86 Universität Wien (Philosophie, Kunstgeschichte, Theaterwissenschaft)
 * Regieausb. in Mailand
 * Phil.-Stud. Florenz, Berlin u. New York

Exhibitions deleted
There is a lengthy debate in German WP about the exhibitions organized by the subject, see:. The CV cites only: Robertsan succeeded in German WP to reduce all this to two exhibitions - although there were at least 30, of what I know till now: (C) = with the publication of a catalogue. The original version from Machtjan X was explaining it all (until Robertsan questioned everything):
 * 1983-86 Geschäftsführung der Molotov Verlags- und Veranstaltungs G.m.b.H. (gemeinsam mit Jorit Aust) und künstlerische Leitung der Fotogalerie "Molotov", Herausgabe von Katalogbüchern und -broschüren
 * 1983-86 Organisation von Ausstellungen in Villa Vojcsik, Secession, Künstlerhaus, Albertina, Ring, U4, Josefine, Museum Moderner Kunst, Palais Palffy und Stadthalle Wien (u.a. Kiki Kogelnik, Hermann Nitsch, Friedl Kuberlka-Bondy, Günter Selichar, Marcus Leatherdale, Lothar Rübelt, Joel-Peter Witkin, Robert Mapplethorpe, Todd Watts, Fritz Simak, Herlinde Koelbl, Heinz Cibulka)
 * Villa Vojcsik = GGK Wien (at least 7): Kogelnik, Wiener Blut (C), Electrographics, Christian Vogt, Marcus Leatherdale (C), Alfred Seiland, Fritz Simak
 * Secession: Heinz Cibulka
 * Künstlerhaus: Herlinde Koelbl
 * Albertina: Lothar Rübelt
 * Ring (at least 7): Nitsch, Kubelka-Bondy, Leatherdale, Watts, Vogt, Witkin, Cibulka
 * U4: Bildnis der Wienerin
 * Josefine: Selichar
 * Museum Moderner Kunst: Selichar (C)
 * Palais Palffy: Creative Club Austria, Bilder vom Krieg, Bilder vom Frieden
 * Stadthalle Wien: Photo Art Fair Fotografie 83 (C)
 * Fotogalerie Wien: Pierre Schrammel (C)
 * Studio Molotov (at least 8): Vogt, Leatherdale, John Dugdale (C), Watts, Scharff et. al.
 * Zur gleichen Zeit übte er sich als Ausstellungsmacher und brachte amerikanische Fotografen – wie Joel-Peter Witkin oder Robert Mapplethorpe – und den Schweizer Fotokünstler Christian Vogt nach Wien. Für die Albertina kuratierte er Ausstellung und Katalog des Bildberichterstatters Lothar Rübelt, in der Secession präsentierte er Heinz Cibulka und im Künstlerhaus die deutsche Fotografin Herlinde Koelbl. Im Szenelokal Ring stellte er – jeweils nur eine Nacht lang – Hermann Nitsch, Friedl Kubelka-Bondy und andere aus. In der Stadthalle verantwortete Michelides 1983 die erste Fotografie-Kunstmesse Österreichs, in der GGK Wien Wiener Blut , eine Revue von 36 Künstlern mit Katalog, sowie im Palais Ferstel die erste Ausstellung des Creative Club Austria, die stern-Wanderausstellung Bilder vom Krieg und die Eigenproduktion Bilder vom Frieden.

My abbreviated (german) version was pretty short:
 * Auch organisierte er eine Reihe von Ausstellungen.

So please, dear Robertsan, please don't charge me again with glorfying Michelides.

I don't have a clue why Robertsan wants to limit all this to some exhibitions in the rooms of GGK Wien. And I don't have a clue why he adds a to Studio Molotov - as it was Robertsan himself who quoted The Photograph collectors' resource directory as a source for Studio Molotov in German WP.

And I don't see any reason why it should not be mentioned, that the subject was the first one to bring notable American photographers to Europe.

Will be cont' on friday or saturday. Regards from McWien (talk) 01:23, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Where is an source for the italian-directoral debut, but i guess this is not needed, if someone need this source i will tell.--Das-Geheimnis-der-Sphinx (talk) 10:34, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Answer

 * Let me give a short answer, because I am not able to give my whole time only for Christian Micheldies. The reader will see at once, that these detailled informations, most of them unsourced, are only available to a person very close to the subject. I call it COI. There are so many details over a very long period of Michelides' (earlier) life.

Some examples for exhibitions: "Josephine" was no art gallery but a bothel, the "Ring" was a pub. So why should these exhibitions be part of an encyclopedia? The catalogues are all self published and (without one example) there is no book found in the national gallery or in any art library. These are private books, and no need to take them in the article. The art fair in the Wiener Stadthalle was a commercial one. You can rent the space in the fair and then sell what you want. So what shall that be goog for? Now lets have a look at Studio Molotov. This was a gallery for photography founded by Michelides and a photographer named Aust. I found only one book where the Studio Molotov is mentioned, but only the adress, no more explaination. This book was a adress advice for Photo studios, not an art magazine or art encyclopedia. Thousands of artists found a gallery to promote their own work. They print also their own catalogues and make exhibitions. They rent spaces at private art fairs. That's their job. The members of the art board in German WP focuse on museums and big galleries, but the private cultural events are not relevant enough to become part of an encyclopedia. Important art fairs are documenta, Venice Biennale or the Art Cologne, where international curators do their job. Maybe that there had been some exhibitions, but these were not important enough, because no art library has taken a notice, and no art magazine has wrote about them.

The way the exhibitons are mentioned in the article is th glorify the person Christian Michelides. In the most sources used in the closing argument Michelides is not even mentioned.

A last word to the dog. The dog is not part of the psychologic work or in any other way important. So there is no need to get the dog in the article. The photo without dog is neutral. I would like to have a dog in an article of a dog's psychotherapist or an animal trainer, but Micheldies is not the one and not the other. (sorry for my broken English). --Robertsan (talk) 11:18, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Robertsan - you know, there a people who have probs with dogs, people who goes to a psychotherapist - so it is very ignorant to say, he ist not a dog psychotherapist or animal trainer, it is - sorry, stupid to argue this way. Some people need Psyhchotherapist and dog for solving probs with dogs or an animal has the calming effect you can use for therapy. You have really no idea what you writing about... --Das-Geheimnis-der-Sphinx (talk) 11:29, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "Josephine" was neither an art gallery nor a bothel - but a brothel. I think it is remarkable that an art curator chooses such a strange location for an art show. It must have been quite an event - also because the main speaker at the opening night of this exhibition was quite a controversial figure himself: sexologist and socialist Ernest Borneman, an acquaintance of Bertolt Brecht and Wilhelm Reich. The more I think about this art show the more I believe it should be included in this bio. As it is definetly relevant ...--McWien (talk) 20:13, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Animal-assisted therapy
Have a look.McWien (talk) 15:12, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There are no reliable sources telling us, that Christian Michelides uses dogs for therapy.--Robertsan (talk) 21:24, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hereby we certify that Mr. Michelides is using his dog Lucky in therapy with heavily disturbed patients in therapy. --Praxis Loewengasse (talk) 22:51, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Occupation as opera and theatre photographer all over europe since 2014?
No given source does confirm this information yet. All what is known is that one of his pictures was used in a local online newspaper in 2016. Is this enough to claim that he is an "opera and theatre photographer all over europe since 2014" by ocupation? I doubt that. The unsourced information by another user that he got permission to take pictures in some opera-houses doesnt confirm this information in the article and this looks a lot like based on Original Research. Kind regards Seader (talk) 08:46, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * --Meister und Margarita (talk) 20:49, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

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