Talk:Cornel West/Archive 1

"While at Yale he participated in campus protests for a clerical union and divestment from apartheid South Africa, one of which resulted in his being arrested and jailed. " What was the charge? Was he convicted? 64.168.31.248 21:34, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Nevertheless, West remains a widely cited scholar, though his contributions to philosophy have been ignored almost entirely by the academy" - I (spinoza1111@yahoo.com, spinoza1111 at wikipedia, Edward G. Nilges) have removed the text of this statement commencing with "comma, though his".

This is because it's a logical contradiction and apparently a rather gratuitous non-NPOV put-down. IF West is widely cited THEN he isn't be ignored by the academy whose notice, if not necessarily approbation, is expressed in the main by citation.

The only academy that is ignoring Corn consists of those interesting tenured chaps who no longer read anything except the sports pages. Perhaps the multiply-talented Corn would like to write a book on the philosophy of American sport, and I for one would be very interested to read Dr. West on how Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen racially healed Chicago during the NBA playoffs. This way clowns with tenure such as are mentioned by Saul Bellow might actually read Dr. West.

A less responsible chap like me would then insert a sly, but alas non-NPOV, mention of The Lawrence Summers Award for Running One's Big Mouth and Offending People, received from me about a year after Corn's demeaning and gravely insulting performance assessment. But, the fact that big Larry has terminal foot in mouth is not relevant to Corn's situation at all except for purposes of amusement.

I was honored to meet Dr. West when I worked at Princeton but unlike the case of Nash, I have nothing to add to this article, only a little to correct.

Removed "After Race Matters, he failed to produce any significant solo scholarship for several years and instead focused on slight, co-authored and edited volumes and on popularizations"
West produced far more at an earlier age than MANY white academics. In particular, The American Evasion of Philosophy is first-rate.

As to "popularizations", Harold Bloom's recent book on Shakespeare was a "popularization". When white academics produce a popularization, they are praised as having the common touch. The rules should be the same for black academics.

The fact is that many religious people in America lack an intellectual foundation for their progressive political views. Dr. West has given this to them. This may be inconvenient for cynical elites who fear a mass movement based in part on religious convictions, such as the mass movement in Poland that ended thug Communism.

I don't believe myself biased by knowing Dr. West personally, for my encounters were few (too few) and when I compare his work with Bloom's I see a more responsible *corpus* with far more depth.

The matter of publishing in American universities appears to be a sore spot with the elbow patch crowd. The little known but first rate Midwestern philosopher E. D. Klemke was denied a lifetime achievement award because he "published too much" while at the State University of Iowa because the second-raters there couldn't write and were jealous of a dove trooping amongst crows.

I conclude that the publication rule is bespoke and tailored by sour spirits to fit local enmities, local enmities that fold into a larger racism. It was in fact a first rate discovery in the humanities for West to point out that Marvin Gaye's 1968 song, What's Going On, was an ontological statement, and that it asked an ultimate, if subaltern question (and you got that right: it is RACISM and classism to mock the subaltern when the subaltern uses "big" words).

It was innovative for West to use a CD to promulgate his views, and, when white academics use multimedia as does Negroponte et al., they are praised.

In West's case, the publication rule was bespoke, and twisted to EXCLUDE what was convenient to exclude. I have found sly attempts in this article to downgrade West and THIS violates a wikipedia rule that is not bespoke and may not be tailored: neutral point of view. The POV that West is a lightweight is I believe false and certainly not neutral.

Because of sexual fears, white people seem in America to believe that there relations with black folks are about power and power alone, and that, for this reason, "real men" will enforce pre-existing "standards" of conduct on black men that are systematically not observed by white men. Lawrence Summers was in fact, when he tried and failed to bitch-slap Cornel into submission, trying for a Sistah Souljah moment: this was Clinton's criticism of that rapper which had nothing to do with her as a person, and everything with Clinton's felt need to establish his "masculinity" in a sense that was futile, because just as soon as Clinton was elected, the Republican right set about deconstructing that masculinity.

It's all about the establishment of authority, and subaltern white people experience it all they time when THEY are bitch-slapped, as Dr. West was, in "performance reviews" which have nothing to do with the content of academic or industrial performance, and everything to do with the *telos* of a system which no longer serves human needs.\

<<<<<Nice way to Show your bias. There is no need for you to explain you knew the man, the way you sugarcoated him, you seem to his number #1 fan.....Tijernas

Spinoza1111 05:10, 7 February 2006 (UTC)Let's see the logic here.

If a white man expresses informed admiration for a black man, his admiration is girlish and unrestrained...sugar-coated.

This is less logic than the irruption of sexual fear into what should be an academic dispute about Dr. West's contributions, because the thing about sexual fear is its non-negotiable quality.

I also knew and assisted John Nash. As such, I was able to contribute while maintaining NPOV.

NPOV isn't the slack-jawed, drool-streaked ignorance of the jury member who the attorney in the wrong wants on the jury. It happens to be having the facts (including the VALUABLE judgements made because of personal acquaintance IN ADDITION to reading Dr. West's books, something most of his enemies on hate radio, and at Harvard, have not done) and making an informed judgement on those facts.

Removed "never satisfied with the world of academia" Spinoza1111 05:59, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Non-NPOV, subtly.

"The world of academia" reifies something that is constructed by the labor of people actually in it, and West is IN academia, he helps to MAKE it what it is, as much as any other faculty member.

Dude has taught. Dude has published. Dude has graded papers.

To say, even *en passant*, that West is somehow unsatisfied makes "academia" into a pre-existing plantation (yeah, you got that right) which in its largesse ALLOWS African-American scholars ifn they behave theyselves.

It makes West an angry Black man and a permanent outsider. The problem is that there is no university without people and people come in all colors, dammit.

The phrase hypostatizes (yeah, you got that right) a white world which "is" academia, which represents Power, Truth and Goodness when in fact pre-coeducation, pre-minority studies, places like Princeton were in large measure narrow barbaric by today's standards.

I have REMOVED the phrase.

This whole entry on West is suspect because the "fraud" is nowhere to be found.

Clarification of West's Role at Princeton
 The introductory paragraph of this article says "West is currently a professor of Religion and African American studies at Princeton University". That's not exactly true. According to the Princeton University African American Studies website, Cornel West "served as director of the Program in African American Studies from 1988 to 1994." and then, according to Princeton's Religion Department website, he "returned to Princeton in 2002 as Class of 1943 University Professor of Religion. His teaching and research interests include philosophy of religion and cultural criticism, and his current research focuses on the tragic, the comic, and the political."--GraemeMcRaetalk 21:59, 20 October 2005 (UTC) 

West's Ties to Sacramento, California
 Cornell West is mentioned in the page on Sacramento, California as having "ties" to the city, but there is no mention of the city in this article. What are his ties to the city?--GraemeMcRaetalk 22:01, 20 October 2005 (UTC) Dr. West attended John F. Kennedy High School in Sacramento California.

West's son Kanye
De-linked "Kanye West" in the biography section since it leads to the page of the rapper Kanye West, who isn't Cornel West's son.

Cornel West and Kanye West
This article had stated that Kanye West was Cornel West's son. There is no evidence of that anywhere. I have deleted it - but if that is the case, then please add it again. Thank you.

World Cant Wait
Is there any doubt that this group is anti-fascist? Is there any information that it's pro-fascist?

Louis Farrakhan (whom he has actively criticized)
That phrase means next to nothing. What did West criticize Farrakhan for? What form did the criticism take? Is the author intending (as I believe he is) to mitigate West's association with Farrakhan? If so, this isn't very convincing.


 * The point isn't to convince anyone of anything, it's to provide accurate information, which this is -- I don't have Race Matters handy right at the moment, but West has some pretty harsh words for Farrakhan in it. Though I was probably the author of the phrase, it's quite possible that "actively" might be too strong a word -- it'd be worth more research if you're interested in doing it. RadicalSubversiv E 02:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Well...someone should. This is vague and uninformative. It has the feel of "special pleading". Spell out what was criticized and what form that critique took, and what reaction there was, if any. Why not try editing this portion?

Adam Holland 17:12, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

rap?
did this guy rly do a rap? LOL

This hardly seems NPOV
The article has almost nothing good to say about West without some sort of modifier. For example: "West has been called—if only by his publisher—," or ". As a Marxist black radical he was almost unique in saying that it was not appropriate for other black militants to hate all whites and Jews. Yet he has endorsed the radicals grouped around the magazine Race Traitor, which calls for the "abolition of whiteness." " This has clearly been heavily edited/written by some people who hate him, and have nothing constructive to add. Instead of quoting from West, they link him to Farrahkhan, Race Traitor, and then Morris Powell *through* Al Sharpton. The entire paragraph that starts "This was the same Sharpton who, four years earlier, had incited a group of black anti-Semites to boycott" is not about West at all, and wouldn't even be NPOV if it was in an article about Sharpton. Why is there a mention of Roland Smith? What does he have to do with West?

we have to include
we have to include the blatant hypocrisy of Dr West when talking about him. he speaks ill of america and capitalism while driving a Cadilac and wearing suits that cost over $1000.00, according to Schweizer's book. if president bush paid for an abortion for his daughter i'm sure it would be mentioned in wik. Keltik31 14:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Removed 'controversial.' " and worked with such controversial figures as Louis Farrakhan and Al Sharpton,..." Using the word 'controversial' seems suggestive of other motives. Couldn't Nader be considered 'controversial?'

Neutral now (?)
I believe the serious concerns raised earlier have been substantially addressed and that the current revision is NPOV. Based on this, I intend to remove the tag in a few days unless there is a consensus that portions remain POV. Please comment here if you think the tag should remain; or better, fix the article. Matchups 21:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Lead sentence
The lead was reverted back to: "Cornel Ronald West (born 1953-06-02 in Tulsa, Oklahoma) is a prominent African-American scholar and public intellectual." I think the lead would be better if ethnicity was not introduced per wp:mosbio unless West's notability is due to his being African-American. Per most bios, ethnicity is not included in the LEAD sentence but introduced further into the article. I propose that the lead read :"Cornel Ronald West (born 1953-06-02 in Tulsa, Oklahoma) is an American scholar and public intellectual". The word "prominent" is also uneeded fluff. Anyways, thanks! --Tom 19:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and reverted back to my version, thanks --Tom 19:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that "prominent" should go. With respect to "African-American", I may be wrong but I think being Black is part of what makes West notable.


 * On the other hand, I don't think Martin Luther King, Jr. ever mentions the fact that he was Black (not just in the lede, but in the whole article), nor does Al Sharpton. The lede describes Malcolm X as a Black Muslim minister, but that's one of the things for which he was notable (a role, not an ethnicity).


 * So I guess I agree with you. The lede says that West was influenced by the Black church, but it seems out of step with other articles to describe him as African-American. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 19:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks Malik. I tried not to revert bios where the person was "the first African-American to xyz" or where ethnicity was really central to the article. As you mentioned, there are bios of individuals who are extremely famous African-Americans but it is not mentioned in the LEAD. I have been focusing primarily on bios and their lead sentence trying to remove "XYZ-American"/ethnicity unless there is a really really really good reason to mention it. If you have a question about any of my other edits please let me know. I edited probable 30 bios today. Cheers! --Tom 20:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

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Citation
I am not sure how to imbed the citation in the actual text, but the following quote: "existential angst derive[d] from the lived experience of ontological wounds and emotional scars inflicted by white supremacist beliefs and images permeating U.S. society and culture" under the section Views on Race in America is from West's book Race Matters and can be found on page 27. The book was originally published in 1993 but my edition was published in 2001. Can someone help my by adding this citation after the quote? Thanks. Bmstephany 18:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

removed text
I have removed the following because it is controversial and uncited. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 16:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * He explains that "the accumulated effect of the black wounds and scars suffered in a white-dominated society is a deep-seated anger, a boiling sense of rage, and a passionate pessimism regarding America's will to justice." "It goes without saying," he adds, "that a profound hatred of African people . . . sits at the center of American civilization."

Sentence fragment; please help rewrite or complete
In the section about the dispute with Lawrence Summers: In Wests opinion, he felt he was highly regarded in the academic community because he had a tenured at Harvard,Princiton and Yale. Also he had more refrences and qualifictions than fourteen out of the seventeen Harvard Professors. Can someone complete this sentence? I don't know what was intended here.Raryel (talk) 17:13, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Removed note from main page
I've removed the following not from the body of the article and thought it should be noted here
 * This article needs cleanup & better 3rd party citing! I'd attach the MediaWiki box if I knew how, but in a hurry just now...

BahamaLlama8 (talk) 22:53, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Jacques Fresco
The Jacques Fresco that this article links to is not the microbiologist Jacques Fresco but some conspiracy theorist guy who happens to have the same name. This is a link to the Jacques Fresco that the article cites. I'm not sure how to take out the link in the article. http://www.molbio.princeton.edu/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=209 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.51.208 (talk) 05:53, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for catching the error. I've fixed the incorrect link, but unfortunately we don't have a biography of Jacques Robert Fresco, the microbiologist, yet. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 06:00, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Something doesn't seem right
"Cornel Ronald West (born June 2, 1953) is an American philosopher"

and

"his work as an academic philosopher has been almost completely ignored"

If that second statement is true, maybe you shouldn't open with the first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.76.149.143 (talk) 23:50, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for pointing out the inconsistency. The editors responsible have been sacked. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 06:03, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Discover the Networks article link & copyright
Hipocrite, what evidence do you have that the link to DTN was a copyright violation? Drrll (talk) 15:51, 13 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Because the article was published in "The New Republic." Hipocrite (talk) 15:53, 13 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Isn't it possible that they obtained permission to host the article? Drrll (talk) 16:13, 13 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Are you asking if it's possible, or if it's likley, or if it's appropriate for us to link there when we could merely reference the actual text? Hipocrite (talk) 16:15, 13 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Clearly, a direct link to the source of an article is always preferable, but if it's not available it's helpful to have access to an article, as long as there's no evidence of copyright violation. Drrll (talk) 16:22, 13 October 2010 (UTC)


 * There are a series of reasons to believe that article is a copyvio. First - it provides no valid copyright information - the bottom of the page states "Copyright 2003-2005 : DiscoverTheNetwork.org" This is known-false - we know the article is copyright The New Republic, 1995. Second, The New Republic has it's own, paid archives - see . I think the combination of the copyright holder limiting access to the archives plus a false copyright claim on the third-party archive constitute reasonable expectation of playing fast-and-loose with IP. Hipocrite (talk) 16:51, 13 October 2010 (UTC)


 * In that case, I have to admit that it looks like they probably don't have the proper permissions or at least are careless in delineating their right to host the article. Drrll (talk) 17:07, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Some organization
Hi all,

I've just been looking over this article and think it could use some heavy reorganization. The "career" section in particular is almost a list. It should be crafted into a more coherent narrative as per WP:MOS guidelines. I think this will have the added bonus of illuminating areas where the article may be deficient, if any. I'd be happy to work on this myself, but would prefer to do it in partnership with another editor. Thoughts?--Grapplequip (talk) 06:13, 1 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I will give it a shot as time permits...--Chimino (talk) 23:40, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

"American political philosophers"?
Should Cornel West's page have "American political philosophers" as a category attached to it? Considering the fact that he has contributed essentially nothing significant or new to the field of political philosophy, I'm wondering if this category is an appropriate one.69.115.228.66 (talk) 23:06, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, he's definitely a leading political commentator; what exactly constitutes a political philosopher, anyway?--Chimino (talk) 23:12, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, so what if he's a "leading political commentator"? Bill O'Reilly is also a leading political commentator; it doesn't make him a philosopher. A political philosopher is someone who makes signficant scholarly additions to the body of knowledge of political theory. When I hear the term "political philosopher", I think of people like John Rawls, Robert Nozick, Ronald Dworkin, Michael Walzer, Isaiah Berlin, Paul Gottfried, Thomas Sowell, etc. In other words, people who have made major scholarly contributions to the discipline through books, articles in academic journals, etc. Cornel West has not engaged in any scholarly activity since 1989, when he published his "The American Evasion of Philosophy", a survey of pragmatism which I don't think most of his peers in the academy regard as a major achievement.69.115.228.66 (talk) 14:52, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Along these lines, I came to the article hoping to find a summary of his thought and summary of critical response. I find neither, I am afraid. Would be helpful. Andrew H 23 June 2011
 * West is a "leading political commentator"? You have got to be kidding. His political commentary is about as meaningful and prolific as his "scholarship" which is to say not at all.74.141.154.28 (talk) 01:09, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

"Popular Culture"
I'm reworking the Popular Culture section by eliminating "list" references which go against WP standards, keeping information relevant to his career, and renaming it "Entertainment", so as it focuses on his film, television and musical career (rather than one-off "Cornell West" references in pop culture).--Chimino (talk) 10:41, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

It seems like there should be some mention of his involvement with the Terence Blanchard album "Choices." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.142.220.80 (talk) 00:20, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Sure, feel free to add it to the last paragraph of the "Entertainment Career" section. When I wrote the above there was a long list of random "pop culture" references about West, which I eliminated (see WP:trivia.--Chimino (talk) 00:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Dispute with Summers Section
The segment on West's dispute with Summers skews heavily in West's favor, and looks like it takes wholecloth statements by West. Anyone want to get in there and clean it up? HandsomeSam57 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC).

It's one thing to go through something as traumatic as cancer, and anyone who has been through anything traumatic knows who was there for them during that difficult time! That's some shit you just don't forget!! Jason Slater (talk) 08:05, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

West's 2012 Obama endorsement
I believe that this ought to be mentioned:

' So voting for Obama is good strategy given the realities of the world?

A Romney administration would be a catastrophic response to an already catastrophic condition. I still get in a lot of trouble with my left-wing comrades on this—that I would still support Obama winning while continuing to tell the truth about drones dropping bombs on innocent people, which I consider war crimes, about the Wall Street government, about the refusal to close Guantanamo, about [section] 1021 of the National Authorization Act where you can detain citizens without trial or even assassinate citizens based on the decisions of the executive branch. All of those things to me are morally obscene. It’s a matter of telling that truth, strategically. I think we have to ensure that we don’t have a takeover by conservative right-wing or we’re in a world of trouble.' ~ http://www.vice.com/read/cornel-west-plans-to-vote-for-obama-in-november-and-protest-his-policies-in-february Beingsshepherd (talk) 03:50, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Criticism of his politics
We need to add in Stanley Crouch opinions (for balance only) as well as Harris-Perry (Obama's pet).--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 09:47, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Criticism is fine if it is supported by reliable, secondary sources; see WP:BLP and WP:NPOV. Note that opinion pieces are generally primary sources. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:01, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Personal Life
Would it make sense to add anything about Dr. West's personal life to this page? He has a wife, Elleni, and a son, Clifton Louis West. Bmstephany 18:23, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


 * would it make sense to list he has siblings. He used the phrase "My Brother Scott, has done great work on Twain" in an appearance on "Real Time with Bill Maher".  Now perhaps he used the phrase Metaphorically, but it made me wonder if he has siblings.--71.178.199.89 (talk) 01:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * (Nearly 13 years later) Please add a Personal life section to this article. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 06:38, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Improper marriage citation
The citation on his marriage to Leslie Kotkin (m. 2016⁠–⁠2018)​ is from 2009 -- "Russell, Dick (2009). Black Genius: Inspirational Portraits of African-American Leaders (rev. large print ed.). New York: Skyhorse Publishing. p. 221." Did this perhaps get mixed up with a separate footnote?

--Alexwennerberg (talk) 04:02, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Support for Julian Assange
My edit | here saying: “West is an outspoken supporter of Julian Assange, on one occasion saying: “[Assange] has been simply laying bare some of the crimes and lies of the American empire.”” was reverted with WP:UNDUE given as the reason – yet Cornel West’s support for Assange has been considerable – Assange is a very high profile figure in the centre of an international controversy. How can it possibly be WP:UNDUE to mention this and to include a quote revealing West’s strong feelings on the subject? Prunesqualor  billets_doux  16:32, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that this is relevant and WP:DUE material. Is is also reliably sourced.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 16:58, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe this is important to Assange, I don't know, but this is not a major aspect of West's life or his political beliefs, as far as this article is concerned it is trivia. - MrOllie (talk) 16:58, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
 * MrOllie Please check out the event covered | here where West said the following: “Yeah, let me first say that it is a blessing, honor and privilege to sit here with my dear brother Gabriel and brother John, who are biologically and lovingly connected to my very dear brother, Julian. I have a deep love and respect for him. I had dialogue with him when he was there in the Embassy of Ecuador back eight years ago... ” (I'll just quote that snippet for now) There is plenty more material out there which I will bring in if needed (It won’t take you long to confirm that with a Google search) - but hopefully you will see that Assange and his predicament is very important to Cornel West without the need to wastefully drag this debate out. Prunesqualor   billets_doux  08:47, 25 October 2021 (UTC)