Talk:DOMELRE

As the source makes clear…
…the DOMELRE was the first successful, mass marketed package automatic electric refrigeration unit. note all the differences between this and the article’s claims. Qwirkle (talk) 14:12, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

A “first” which improved on the ones before it?
is almost directly contradicted by. Qwirkle (talk) 15:34, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It's a bit weird. I propose authors to clarify it. AXO NOV  (talk) ⚑ 15:54, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * A big part of this is the equivocation found in the article and some of the sources. Contemporaneously, a refrigerator was an icebox. Qwirkle (talk) 16:03, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't really see a contradiction in here. Prior could have run on gas (I mean, natural), for example. While I was reviewing the article for DYK, a cursory look did not yield such contradictions. However, as a deeper look in the sources showed, "prior domestic refrigerators" is something that Piotrus inserted while there were no comparisons in the sources cited between DOMELRE and possibly other refrigeration units (which fact I happened to overlook), so simply removing these three words solves the problem without impacting the factual accuracy of the article. I have confirmed in other independent sources that DOMELRE is indeed THE pioneer. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:13, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * @Szmenderowiecki I am fine with removing the phrase "not found in prior domestic refrigerators", although common sense-wise, this is what the concept of 'innovation' implies. states for example "The DOMELRE featured a number of innovations". Logically, those where innovations compared to prior similar products, which can be common sense-wise described as "domestic refrigerators" (and yes, they existed, but where non-electric, or non-domestic, User:Qwirkle notes the icebox and indeed iceboxes where the main type of product - understood as refrigerator - back then). PS. Regarding the hook, the following clarification should be sufficient: " that DOMELRE (pictured), an American invention from 1913, was the first commercially succesfull domestic electrical refrigerator?", with the source for commercially successful being the book found by Andrew (linked below). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  04:15, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * @Szmenderowiecki Ping re the revised hook? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:26, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with the new version, though it appears it will no longer appear on DYK, or at least I don't know if hooks return to DYK after being retracted for corrections. That said, I'm OK with it. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 02:31, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * @Szmenderowiecki I'll ask at Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:53, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Refrigeration Nation indicates that there were several domestic models in the period 1910–15 but that they were too bulky, being based on industrial models. The DOMELRE was the first to "survive its infancy" but still sold only 525 units. Andrew🐉(talk) 17:41, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Here's a picture of the earlier Montclair, which makes it clear that it was electrical too. Andrew🐉(talk) 17:54, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * @Andrew Davidson Good finds. Page 137 is helpful, noting that "the first household refrigerator" depends on the definition of the concept. Perhaps " the first commercially successful domestic electrical refrigerator" term might be better, since as that chapter makes clear, they have been prior attempts, but they were seen as unsuccessful. DOMELRE, on the other hand, was a commercially successful milestone. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:46, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The source makes it fairly clear that the product was not commercially successful; it just wasn't an immediate failure. The first model only sold 525 units and the second model, Isko, sold only 1,500 so that the company went bankrupt.  The first commercial success seems to have been GE's Monitor Top, which sold over a million. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:50, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * @Andrew Davidson There is success and there is success. It was more successful than the devices from years prior which seem to have not sold at all, or if they did, the numbers were so small they didn't get recorded. This device was recorded as selling well enough to be described as "a quick hit", "successful" ("first successful, mass marketed package automatic electric refrigeration unit"). The book you found states that it was "the first to survive its infancy". It's v2, Isko, sold three times as much, and then GE bought the patents, and released a v3 (or v4, whatever) that sold millions. How to describe this and not be misleading? It wasn't the first "commercial" product. "Successful" is ambiguous. We could quote the book directly for the hook, maybe "was "the first electric household refrigerator to survive its infancy"?" Although it's quite subjective which quotation we prefer. Any preferences? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:04, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * This was technology that was merely a smaller version of a well-established larger commercial predecessor. There were tens of thousands of people who could kludge together a mechanical refrigeration unit for an icebox by the time this “invention” was created. We have an example provided of a substantially similar earlier version commercially sold. Perhaps, just perhaps, we should listen to what that says about any source that claims this was an out-of-the-blue original. Qwirkle (talk) 15:35, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I prefer to focus on what the reliable sources, cited here, say. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:26, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The “reliable sources” contradict each other, and sometimes themselves. Qwirkle (talk) 15:47, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * @Qwirkle Which is why the article provide quotations with attribution (in the form of references). What else would you have us do? Deciding which source is 'correct and best' would be ORish/editorializing. When reliable sources disagree, we inform the reader about this. Also, I am not sure they contradict anything, it's all a matter of terminology (defining what a refrigerator is; you yourself made a good point that some understood it as an icebox too, while others think of it as a modern fridge running on electricity). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:23, 7 September 2021 (UTC)