Talk:Dancing on My Own

F# major or G major?
The key that the published sheet music is in is irrelevant. Those are frequently wrong (sometimes about much more than just the key.) The official version of the song is in F#. Try it out at the piano if you're not sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.135.20 (talk) 02:56, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

There is no mircrophone. Watch the video. See the picture.
I added microphone pole to everything that said she was singing in front of a microphone. Since there is no microphone at all. Sober cool  Here2Help  15:22, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 26 July 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved as proposed. SST flyer  16:02, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Dancing on My Own → Dancing On My Own – "On" isn't a preposition here. She's not dancing on top of something called "My Own", she's dancing on her own. Unreal7 (talk) 15:46, 26 July 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. Andrewa (talk) 16:14, 3 August 2016 (UTC) )
 * Support move, provided there are sufficient sources for capitalization.  ONR  (talk) 23:53, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose – There are several song titles like this, like "Love on Top", that apply the same way. Billboard Man (talk) 02:59, 27 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Support per the well written nomination and MOS:CAPS. Not a preposition, and sources seem to predominantly use this form too, so that's fine. As for Love on Top, well WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. That one is probably wrong too. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 20:20, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Support per Amakuru. Nohomersryan (talk) 22:07, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Relisting comment: If on isn't a preposition, what is it? Andrewa (talk) 16:14, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * It generally is, but in this context it's not a stand-alone word, it's part of the term "on top". Unreal7 (talk) 22:08, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * On is still a preposition but is part of the multiword expression on my own which itself is a single lexeme here. Capitalising the O in on would emphasise this.  —  AjaxSmack   23:14, 4 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Under this reasoning, you should move Out Here on My Own too. I happen to disagree, so get ready for my Oppose statement if you do — JFG talk 14:43, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Not to mention Living on My Own, 'Til I Can Make It on My Own, Standing on My Own Again, Try It on My Own, Out on My Own, etc. — JFG talk 14:46, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

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I don't even know why they bother with block quotes on here if there's going to be mass deletion for copyright violation despite citation without clarifying the ratio.

Even paraphrasing their lines may get the axe so why bother trying. How much can be quoted is never clarified.

If anyone wants to try and wants to go the mod's edit page for the 9+ different sources that are now gone and try, have at it. Good luck. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Onan808 (talk • contribs) 17:08, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Z100 Interview Quotes: Need replaced context for second GA review
Trying to revise several quotes in this article from YouTube clips from her Z100 interview in 2011 with JJ Kincaid that give vital context (especially in Lyrics section). The quotes were deemed "original research" in first attempted Good Article review by Kyle Peake and there's been incredible difficulty replicating this context from other sources. If anyone's able to find an official source that has the Z100 interview transcript from 2011 or a workaround to include similar context from that interview without using YouTube as a source please message me personally or include with a note on its edit and we'll discuss whether it would work. '''Please honor request to forgo GA nomination until this is accomplished. '''Onan808 (talk) 16:23, 2 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I would not describe the long quote as "original research", and I don't think Kyle Peake said that about this particular quote, which is adequately cited. Kyle was talking about the whole article in general.
 * I think the quote is mostly fluff, unimportant stuff. The article is extremely large, with too much detail in every section. Removing all or most of this quote would help get the size under control. Binksternet (talk) 17:30, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I apologize for any misunderstanding or stress I have caused you. Also, the above user is correct, I was not talking about the YouTube link you referred to here; there is the issue of areas where you cite text source(s) solely but it does not back up what is written. That was the original research I mentioned. --K. Peake 20:03, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Apology accepted and my apologies for perceived "vandalism" on this talk page by Binksternet for accidental deletion which was also not intentional. My prior point to Binksternet on my questioning of the quote being "fluff" (wildly subjective) still stands in addition the "size" of the supposedly "important" articles Binksternet thought passed muster under their prior edits they've already done "non-fluffy" work on but we're not there yet. Working on edits sporadically in the original section you mentioned above over the course of the next few hours.Onan808 (talk) 20:23, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Size at 135k
Regarding the size of the article, I looked at a sampling of song articles that have achieved WP:FA status, to see how big they are, and only a very few are larger than this one, which is currently 135k of code. Below is a list of the FA songs I looked at, with their current sizes.
 * 190k – Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It)
 * 145k – Diamonds (Rihanna song)
 * 135k – Dancing on My Own
 * 118k – Halo (Beyoncé song)
 * 98k – Hey Jude
 * 92k – We Are the World
 * 91k – Blank Space
 * 90k – Something (Beatles song)
 * 89k – Don't Stop the Music (Rihanna song)
 * 86k – Imagine (John Lennon song)
 * 75k – Smells Like Teen Spirit
 * 74k – Push the Button (Sugababes song)
 * 73k – Cry Me a River (Justin Timberlake song)
 * 69k – Here We Go Again (Ray Charles song)
 * 66k – Style (Taylor Swift song)
 * 64k – Baby Boy (Beyoncé song)
 * 62k – Déjà Vu (Beyoncé song)
 * 62k – Like a Rolling Stone
 * 43k – Don't Say You Love Me (M2M song)
 * 42k – Say Say Say
 * 31k – Candy (Foxy Brown song)
 * 30k – Shine (Gwen Stefani song)
 * 30k – Drake Would Love Me
 * 29k – Hey Baby (No Doubt song)
 * 27k – Speechless (Michael Jackson song)
 * 26k – My Happiness (Powderfinger song)
 * 26k – Today (The Smashing Pumpkins song)
 * 17k – Angel of Death (Slayer song)

Arguably, the Rihanna and Beyoncé songs at the top of the list could be trimmed back. But a lot of their code size comes from the massive number of references, and all the lists, charts and tables. If you look only at "readable prose" size, things look pretty different.
 * Readable prose size, measured with DYK check:
 * 55,966 characters– Dancing on My Own
 * 40,327 characters – Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It)
 * 37,510 characters – Hey Jude
 * 26,623 characters – Halo (Beyoncé song)
 * 26,588 characters – Smells Like Teen Spirit
 * 25,689 characters – Diamonds (Rihanna song)
 * 24,938 characters – Like a Rolling Stone
 * 22,115 characters – Imagine (John Lennon song)

The point of all this is that I think this article is too large for its topic. It needs pruning for concision. Very influential, world-changing songs such as "Like a Rolling Stone", "Imagine" and "Smells Like Teen Spirit" have been described fully to the reader in much smaller format. This song was big in its own way, clearly Robyn's biggest hit, but not so world-changing or globally influential. Binksternet (talk) 20:44, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Have at it
After I'm done addressing Kyle Peake's edits have at it with the cuts yourself. Prune away since that's clearly your desire and we'll debate each point one by one that you decide to cut on its merits. Other than latter portions of the Impact section which I'll concede unless you're conducting the review for a GA article submission I've done the months of research on content and I'm not wasting my time bowing to the whims of a random user/mod that decides to waltz in and insinuates the bulk of the material is frivolous or a waste of the users time without any specifics. Do the work yourself like I've done - let it be known for the record that this article was barely bare-boned for almost a decade before the majority of what's here. As for the 'lists, charts, and tables' I have no idea what you're referring to other than countries charting which I never contributed to. Other than that I'm ready for the debate on each and every point so we can have at it. Whether or not the song was globally influential is up for debate and we clearly disagree. I never remotely claimed the song was more influential than the three you concluded with but the insinuation is really appreciated. Just one more sign to me you're not coming to this process in good faith which isn't remotely reassuring. Onan808 (talk) 22:46, 2 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry you are angry. It's clear that you have worked hard on this article, and it's much better because of your work. But at some point the article should have been considered thorough enough for the reader to understand the topic, and that point has passed. The article is now too long for most readers. I'm not here to make you happy; I'm here to speak up for the reader.
 * Since it contains twice as much reading material as the very large article about Diamonds (Rihanna song), a good starting goal would be to cut the reading material in half, to get the "readable prose" size down to half of what it is now. Your offer to fight over every proposed reduction is worrisome. Binksternet (talk) 23:11, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Wow. The patronizing and infantilizing is incredibly unprofessional, not to mention, again, a waste of my time and yours. I'm surprised you have the standing you do on this website. This never was a fight and you don't get to wash your hands of what you originally insinuated, including your new point that I don't care about the reader. Again, I'll leave this to you or another user to do heavy cuts which I can address point by point. Or is that not how editing on this service works as it has for the numerous other articles you've clearly worked on? I'm going to continuing working on Kyle Peake's edits and then I'll leave it to someone else for massive cuts or a GA submission.Onan808 (talk) 23:34, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I have not done anything to deserve your hostility. I did not "insinuate" anything; I said very explicitly that the article is too long. Your total opposition to good-faith advice shows problems with article ownership, especially your pugilistic stance about debating "each and every point" despite no points having been suggested yet. Binksternet (talk) 00:04, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * What you're giving has not been in good faith either, but regardless, no user "owns" any article and can be banned outright for abuse of other users/mods or the process - you and I both know that. I'm not ruling out any cuts being made. I never have and I've addressed that already. Many significant ones are warranted. We'll both clearly wait for those points to actually specifically be made by either yourself or another user. In the meantime I'm going to continue working on the other parts of the article re: Kyle Peake's edits, etc.Onan808 (talk) 00:17, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

The article keeps climbing upward in size. It's now 57,074 characters of readable prose, more than twice as much as featured article "Smells Like Teen Spirit". I don't understand the need to keep slapping more clay onto the sculpture which is already bloated. Binksternet (talk) 02:28, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * While I realize this message was left for the general public for the record for cuts from anyone, since it seems to be just me making any serious attempt on editing here I'll address this directly. I don't understand the need to swoop in with criticism that's not remotely constructive every few weeks when I'm addressing each of Kyle Peake's points one by one under each category if you bothered looking at the updates. This is the exact passive aggressive tack I brought up earlier that helps absolutely no one which you professed ignorance to earlier. This article is no longer under GA nominee review and thus there is not some imposed time limit on your vague request unless there's something I'm missing regarding this process. Cuts are needed, as was already stated. I personally am getting through other edit questions. In the meantime, anyone including yourself is free to make them. Onan808 (talk) 17:42, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * It would be impolite for me to greatly reduce the article at the same time you are building it larger. I was hoping you yourself would make some cuts, or at least propose some cuts. Binksternet (talk) 18:48, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The bridge in your attempts to conduct this entire process 'politely' was burned a long time ago when you ruined my experience on this website. Regardless, if it works for you, as again, I've already stated, once I'm finished with the edits from Kyle Peake (who knows how to give constructive criticism) then attempt some condensing I'll be turning the article over to you make the majority of them as I find the entire process of what will go and what will stay wildly subjective and arbitrary and I won't bother partaking in it, nor GA resubmission. Any attempts to reason on my end of what should go or stay will be met by ridiculous protests on your end of article ownership in abuse of your power editing on this website no matter the defense so again, that's not worth my time or energy. While I finish what I have left to do if there's a timeframe of yours I apparently need to meet please let me know. Onan808 (talk) 00:43, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The burning bridge metaphor seems like hyperbolic phrasing for dramatic effect. I have never done anything here to deserve your ire. I have made a few small edits to the article, and I have said repeatedly here on the talk page that the article is too large, which I have shown above to be objectively true, comparing it to other songs that have reached Featured Article status. If your "experience on this website" can be "ruined" by someone politely suggesting improvements on the talk page, then the problem is not external to you.
 * Specific suggestions I have for reduction of the article's massive size are: removing long block quotes, trimming the inspiration section and the creation section and reworking their ideas into the composition section, reducing the lyrics section, reducing the music video section, reducing the performance section (especially television appearances), reworking the impact section into a smaller influence and legacy evaluation, reducing the poptimism section to one paragraph within that, reducing the outsiders section to one paragraph within that, and trimming the cover versions of less notable stuff. I realize I'm proposing a lot of pruning, but the article needs it to satisfy the GA requirement for clear and concise prose. Binksternet (talk) 16:59, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Your flippant comments about my contributions being "fluff", "bloated", and "slapping more clay" on it without any context (I may be paraphrasing the exact wording with the first), and the implication I thought this song was more influential than any of the others you listed were what I was referring to. Your gaslighting subsequently as if those comments never happened is objectively external to me and it is what has drawn my response. It's not productive or professional. Having gotten that out of the way I'll do what I can, reach out to Kyle about the possibility of evaluating by section again prior to any GA review and then turn it over to you. Onan808 (talk) 04:30, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I said her Z100 quote "is mostly fluff, unimportant stuff." I did not make an implication that your contributions were fluff; I was talking about Robyn's words. What I said that had a direct bearing on your contributions was that the article was "extremely large, with too much detail in every section." We both know your extensive additions have caused this situation. I was certainly hoping to communicate my concern about the article's size to you, to cause you to rethink your strategy, to bring you to an understanding about how your style of contributing must change, to convey an urgency that the article size must be trimmed back. I am not pretending otherwise.
 * To reiterate: I want you to stop expanding the article, and to start reducing it. If you can't reduce it, then just stop expanding it.
 * We can celebrate the fact that the article is much more informative than it was before you expanded it. But some compromise should be reached relative to reader attention span. At Article size we are instructed that reader attention span is a key factor in determining whether an article is too large. An article of 10,000 words is considered the maximum for readers to digest in one sitting. "Dancing on My Own" is currently at 10,959 words, including the long quotes. So it is objectively larger than the recommended maximum. And it's not a critically important topic such as the Moon landing (7700 words) or the whole Universe (9200 words). It's just a song, part of the pop culture division of music releases, with smaller attention spans expected from the readers. The gigantic hit song Halo (Beyoncé song) is a Featured Article and it only uses 4500 words. My goal is reduce this article's prose by half. Binksternet (talk) 06:19, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The additions to the article here since your last post was to address the other editor's concerns and the remaining sections we'd both discussed only being cut and not added to anyways - this is in the logs above you which you apparently didn't bother reading. The miscommunication is on you as an editor with your opening salvo for what I took as an implication it was my article contributions and not Robyn's quote because you didn't deliver it properly to start with. Also, again, your implication I think this pop song is more important than the moon landing simply by virtue of the amount of material I've put in this article is an absurd correlation. I never said that nor did I imply it. The amount of material I have here I never suggested I wasn't willing to reduce significantly. Given that this is just a silly pop song after all and not the 'moon landing', the five-alarm fire I'm inferencing from your response in terms of how long it will take me to reduce this material is ironic. For the fourth time, if there's a timeline of yours I need to meet, clarify it. Onan808 (talk) 18:18, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The GA nomination failed. Your continued pursuit of it, after Kyle closed it as a failed nomination, is quixotic. There's no future in it; no good reason why your expansion work should continue. The article cannot meet the GA requirement of concision until it is reduced. Binksternet (talk) 18:56, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not looking for another GA nomination for this article as I've already said twice, which again, you've ignored. Are you? For the fifth time, do you have a timeline for me or not? They were good points he brought up in general and my addressing them wasn't in pursuit of him approving another nomination. The information now included based on those points was always meant to precede further reductions in other areas, which I also have mentioned several times and you've ignored. I'll be getting back to the article in about a week or two unless I hear otherwise from you or someone else on here. Onan808 (talk) 19:13, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Big pruning
Okay, I removed a lot of text to bring the article into compliance with GA criteria for concise prose. The word count was reduced from more than ten thousand words down to 6,357 words. There are no more blockquotes, with some of these getting reworked as much smaller regular quotes. The section about Robyn's career is removed. I added a small amount of stuff to emphasize the fact that the song has been called a gay anthem, which was previously hinted at but not made explicit. Binksternet (talk) 19:54, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I have some notes that stick out for me immediately in what I feel was an incredibly poor prune job overall. I'd be much more frank and give many more points but won't given what's transpired as indicated earlier in the Talk page. Instead, here are just my immediate points below for the record for other users and not for you (unless you decide to take it up) that they can consider (or not) so you can deal with them (not me - my patience is gone with you frankly) if they decide to pursue it.
 * There is now no follow-up on the majority of the television shows, films, or prominent live performances in the article itself that are mentioned in the opener. Another user had made a point much earlier in this process regarding this exact edit that was fixed and now with this mass cut, it has now not only been reverted to the original problem but it's much worse. Either references would be needed for the shows, etc. in the lead or a follow-up in the article itself. Otherwise they need to be cut in the lead as well. The onus for finding those links again should fall to the editor that insisted on the cut itself or they can cut all mention in the lead of any media the track was in whatsoever (which makes no sense to me, but again, I'm not the one that made those cuts).
 * Initial critical reception for the track was not unanimous praise as indicated in the Stylus' The Singles Jukebox quotes (for Robyn, not Callum) from several of its staff writers originally posted in the first Reception section (meanwhile, is the second "reception" section getting a new title to differentiate it or not?) that was cut. The language in the lead was changed to "polarized" to accurately reflect the differing opinions but there's now no contrasting info from that outlet to reflect it in the article section itself.
 * Of the portions of the former blockquotes that have enough relevance to include in some context here that were eliminated completely I'd make the argument should be included in some short context include Berger's quote in The Globe and Mail of his fellow producers being (I'm paraphrasing) "angry that he produced it the way he did...raw and gritty" and the line from Robyn's interview with Z100 on the lines not being specific to relate to her listeners more. Onan808 (talk) 01:00, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

In March I pruned the article down to 6,357 words, but over the next three months has expanded it back up to 7,278 words. It's too much. (Again, Featured Article "Halo" uses about 4500 words.) Also, the prose style introduced by Onon808 is terribly recursive, excessively referring back to previous facts, and dropping lengthy descriptions of new facts into the middle of an ongoing thought, making the article difficult to read. The writing is opaque and contorted. This cannot stand. Binksternet (talk) 17:00, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * You got rid of the links in the body to what's mentioned in the opener of its inclusion on various media which Kyle Peake brought up in his mass edit and from several other commenters. Critique of prose is irrelevant from my standpoint from an editor making entire cuts of specific references which has been criticized from multiple registered members to this page (and going against Wiki policy) but I obviously have no control of what you decide to cut so be my guest. Your mention of the new info being included however is appreciated, despite your delivery. Given your tone, I'll just go out on a limb here and point out that unless you want to ban me outright from this page I'm not committing vandalism and it's not under formal review so I'm not going anywhere.Onan808 (talk) 17:37, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * My big pruning job was not "criticized" by "multiple registered members"; it was criticized by you alone.
 * Your writing style has to change. You can't keep prying open the prose to insert new thoughts, such that the target sentence becomes a mess of clauses going in different directions. It's a horrible experience for the reader.
 * Your contributions must aim for concision. If you want to add something you should be removing something else to make room. Keep each paragraph focused on developing one idea. Binksternet (talk) 18:47, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The paragraph in the opener has a list of live performances the majority of which do not any longer have corresponding urls in the body under performances because you got rid of them in the mass overhaul and they don't correspond with what is in the majority of the body of other live performances. That is mentioned by corrections that were made by at least two other users unless I need to hold your hand to go back through the logs together. Whether my prose is unnecessary is subjective but you don't get to make up your own facts. That you made a mistake so glaring means many coming here to make corrections in other areas may not take your editing here seriously. I didn't a long time ago but I nor anyone else unfortunately has the luxury of asking for someone else working for Wiki to commandeer this page instead.Onan808 (talk) 20:43, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 21 February 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Participants showed that MOS:CT calls for the "on" to be lowercased in these titles; no policy basis was provided to counteract that. The opposition largely centered on the argument that a lowercased "on" would imply that the sentence's subject was physically on top of the object of the prepositional phrase; this argument was effectively refuted in the discussion, leading me to find a consensus to move. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Dancing On My Own → Dancing on My Own
 * Dance On My Own (Loona song) → Dance on My Own (Loona song)
 * Now That I'm On My Own → Now That I'm on My Own
 * Make It On My Own → Make It on My Own
 * Dance On My Own → Dance on My Own
 * This last one was added after the RM discussion start, but it's just like the others.

– Most titles with "on My Own" treat "on" as a preposition, lowercase, which seems correct, but strangely was not the interpretation on this article back in 2016, in a thinly attended RM. Now this one is being used as a precedent at Talk:Always On the Run (Isaak song); we should fix it instead, along with the few others like it. Dicklyon (talk) 11:25, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Slight Oppose (will track this discussion to see if I'm incorrect, and, you've fogotten Dance On My Own) the first two. You've mixed up two different topics here per, as pointed out in the previous RM, she's not dancing on top of something called "My Own" (which is what I name all my stuff) but dancing by herself. Uppercase seems proper here. As for the other two, it's obvious that somebody is lamenting that they are on their own, i.e. they are going along life alone, and not just dancing. I still don't know why Wikipedia can't just name songs, book titles, etc., what the artist or author names them, as long as the public recognizes the styling. There have been cases where Wikipedia was totally alone in lowercasing a word and still it took considerable effort to correct those. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:15, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * There are lots of definitions of the preposition "on" besides your "on top of" interpretation; certainly that's not what it implies here. Dicklyon (talk) 07:27, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The meaning here seems like the (preposition) "used to show that a condition or process is being experienced", like "on vacation". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 07:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Calling this Dancing on My Own would be fundamentally missing the point of why we lowercase prepositions in the first place. If someone is dancing on top of another thing called "My Own" then this rationale would make sense. But they're not, and changing this would be a retrograde step for our readers. On My Own is a single indivisible multiword phrase, and should be capitalised accordingly. Rules aren't there to just be blindly followed even when it makes no sense to do so. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 14:49, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Support. "On" is not only a preposition when it means "on top of." It has many additional meanings or functions, including "used to indicate the way something is done" and "in a state or process of" (according to Merriam-Webster). So "on" is clearly a preposition in these titles, and that means it should be lowercased according to MOS:CT. Darkday (talk) 16:47, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose per reasons listed by User:Randy Kryn and User:Amakuru above. Paintspot Infez (talk) 17:05, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Per above, I don't believe "On" is a preposition in this case. Steel1943  (talk) 19:47, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * If it's not a preposition, what do you think it is? Per Darkday, I looked at all the meanings listed by Merriam-Webster, and it still seems to be a preposition to me. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:20, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is a preposition since I don't think "own" is a noun, and the prepositional phrase should end with a noun. Steel1943  (talk) 06:37, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * See the Cambridge dictionary for "own" and ""(all) on your own". It talks about "on your own" as having a meaning of "alone" or "without any help", and seems to say "own" is a determiner or pronoun in that phrase. A prepositional phrase can end with a pronoun as well as with a noun. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 08:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't see it as a pronoun either. It's like an adjective that is missing a noun/pronoun, but I don't think the noun/pronoun can be assumed. Steel1943  (talk) 09:02, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Question – Does anyone have a grammar source that talks about this concept of a "single indivisible multiword phrase" in which "on" is not a preposition? Dicklyon (talk) 22:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * We already make the exception for phrasal verbs containing prepositions, such as Moving On Up... This is really just a logical extension of that. Don't capitalise regular joining prepositions, but do capitalise those that are part of longer indivisible phrases. It would be useful to codify this at MOS:CAPS. SMcCandlish tried to do this after a previous RM at Love On Top but I think it got lost somewhere. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 23:05, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * There was no consensus at that one, and it had previously been argued to be a "compound preposition". This is not that. So no grammar source about this? Dicklyon (talk) 05:43, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per MOS:CT. The word is a preposition. No justification has been provided for the idea that a preposition in a multiword expression should be capitalized. There are lots of multiword expressions, and this one isn't very special as far as I can tell. Multiword expressions are expressions that contain multiple words, and some of those words can be prepositions. That's not very exceptional. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:24, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * See also the examples given above by JFG. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:26, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Note – There are about 14 that use "on My Own" in their titles (not counting redirects). It seems unlikely that we'd find consensus that these are wrong. Dicklyon (talk) 22:43, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Also a similar number with "on Your Own", "on His Own", "on Her Own", and "on Their Own". Lowercase "on" is dominant, but not 100%. A list is given below. Note that there's a DIFFCAPS situation for You're on Your Own and You're On Your Own!
 * Lowercase: In the Next World, You're on Your Own, Life on Your Own, Off on Your Own (Girl), Sometimes You Can't Make It on Your Own, You're on Your Own, You're on Your Own, Kid, Anastasia on Her Own, Barbara on Her Own, Tears Dry on Their Own
 * Uppercase: Easy On Your Own?, You're On Your Own
 * Uppercase with unusual punctuation: Take Them On, On Your Own
 * Lowercase in a longer phrase with a different meaning: Gettin' High on Your Own Supply
 * Whole title in sentence case: Beni walks on his own (The only cited source, IMDb, has "Benny Walks on his Own")
 * —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:53, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for those finds. Note that You're On Your Own uses lowercase "on" at IMDb and most books that mention it.  Different caps certainly are not distinguishing in this case, so at least one of those will need a disambiguator and a case change. Dicklyon (talk) 05:31, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Note – Working on this, on purpose, I found some info, while on meds, on my own, on the way to my next holiday distination on the train, on time, on top of all the other stuff I was supposed to do on Thursday on this down-under continent. It seems what we want is called an "adverb prepositional phrase". It's introduced by a preposition, and the phrase works adverbially.  Cogitate on that. Dicklyon (talk) 05:36, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * In some of these, such as "Barbara on Her Own", "Life on Your Own", and "Now That I'm On My Own, I think the phrase in question is not functioning as an adverb. (In those cases it is not modifying a verb and it is also not modifying an adjective or an adverb, as discussed in that source.) I may need some of those meds myself. Even if we can figure out the name of the type of phrase that it is, I don't think that necessarily means the preposition it begins with should be uppercased. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 07:01, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Right, not all adverbs. But with dance, dancing, and make it they are. Dicklyon (talk) 07:22, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * More importantly, if you're "on meds", are you physically sitting on top of those meds? I don't think so. I think the meds are affecting your state of being, like if you were experiencing the state of being "on your own" (or at least "on your own supply"). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 07:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Support Looking at sources mentioning "Dancing on My Own" and "Til I Can Make It on My Own", NYT/Pitchfork/Rolling Stone/Variety pretty consistently downcap, though Billboard is mixed. Hameltion (talk &#124; contribs) 21:29, 22 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Support Per MOS:CT. I made the following comment in respect to a similar RM for Always On the Run (Isaak song) as follows, were the analysis would apply to the titles here.
 * On is a preposition in this case. The lyric is: I'm always on the run, run, run, run. Analysing this: I (subject) am (verb) always (adverb) on (preposition) the run (object, noun phrase with definite article). See also Cambridge and Mirriam-Webster definitions and examples of when on acts as either a preposition, adverb or adjective.
 * Dancing On My Own may initially appear to be an exception but the lyric is I keep dancing on my own, with keep being the verb and dancing, an adverb. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:04, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * PS My own is the subject/noun phrase where my is a determiner and own is a pronoun. On, as a preposition, can be used in several ways per the dictionary sources provided. Not all are positional (in contact with) as in on my desk or on top of. Amongst other uses as a preposition, it can indicate a condition or process being experience - eg on duty, on holiday, on fire and, in this case, on my own. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:17, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose per the reasons stated by Randy Kryr and Amakuru. It doesn't make sense if it were a 'regular' preposition and therefore lowercase. I understand the guidelines don't include this case as some sort of exception, but perhaps that's what needs to be thinking about instead of having several concurrent move discussions about the same thing (especially when the implications reach further to other situations as well). Grk1011 (talk) 17:02, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I've never heard of a 'regular' preposition. Is that a thing, or just something you made up? It would be good to understand how this applies to those "other situations" you mention, as well. Dicklyon (talk) 11:00, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Ask yourself why the On in "Moving On Up" is not subject to MOS:CT, and you'll be on the road to understanding the rationale here. You could argue full well that it's a regular preposition, but like the one in "Dancing On My Own", it simply isn't. It's a preposition forming part of a wider phrase, and to render it in lowercase is simply a misparsing of the sentence, in both instances. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 11:14, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Support: MOS:CT is clear on this. Short prepositions in titles of works are not to be capitalized unless part of a compound preposition like "Out of" or a phrasal verb such as "Putting On". "on My Own" belongs to neither exception category, so there is no MOS-based argument for the On to be capitalized. Furthermore, adding an exception for phrasal adjectives or adverbs to MOS:CT is ill-advised, for what is a prepositional phrase but a phrasal adjective or adverb? One could argue that all prepositional phrases are "indivisible multiword phrases." One may as well remove prepositions from being downcased altogether with this line of reasoning. So it's a poor proposal that will do nothing but introduce a grey area into a presently black-and-white rule. Bensci54 (talk) 18:06, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Some follow-up discussion

 * The "on" in "Moving On Up" is subject to MOS:CT, but it is not a preposition in that usage. It is a particle of the phrasal verb "Moving On", and MOS:CT says it should be capitalized. "Moving On" is like "Give Up" or "Puttin' On", which are examples given in MOS:CT. It is obviously not a preposition when used in "Moving On", because it is coming after, rather than before, the other word that it is attached to. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Of course it's a preposition. Just because it's part of a phrasal verb doesn't mean it suddenly becomes not one, in exactly the same way as the "on" in on my own is still a preposition despite being part of a sort of adverb idiom type thing. And yes, I know MOS:CT explicitly says it should be capitalised. My only point is that it should also explicitly say the preposition in a defined idiom such as On My Own is capitalised. It makes no sense to include one but not the other, but I guess adhering to the letter of the MOS is more important to some people in this chat than actually thinking about why a preposition is downcased in the first place. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 21:18, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The Cambridge Dictonary (definition B2) says "on" is an adverb in "Could you switch on the radio?". Isn't "move on" like "switch on", and thus using "on" as an adverb rather than a preposition? It also says it's an adverb in "You go on and I'll meet you at the lake." (Struck out one sentence above that I'm not confident about.) —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:03, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * And as I mentioned above, made a brief attempt to codify this properly in 2016, but was quickly reverted. What an absolute pity, because it was far far better the other way.  &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 21:21, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * That edit by looks like it was just trying to clarify something about compound prepositions. I haven't seen anyone argue that "dancing on my own" or "moving on up" involves a compound preposition. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:31, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, and we have clearer material on that in another line-item now, so the edit from back when would not longer be useful today.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:18, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Exactly what functions these words are performing is subject to some debate even in the professional literature, and some misc. Wikipedians, mostly without linguistics backgrounds, arguing amongst themselves isn't magically going to resolve that. All of our P&G apply ; a claim that something should be an exception is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence, and we do not have that here. Treat a word that is arguably a preposition as a preposition unless there is an overwhelmingly consistent view in reliable sources on English grammar that it's serving some other function. "Moving On Up" be interpreted as the phrasal verb "moving on" (going forward/past something) followed by "up" serving in a role that some would classify as an adverb and some as a determiner lacking an explicitly declared, "understood" referent, but essentially taking the object role in the overall constuction (a role usually filled by a noun, noun phrase, or pronoun), i.e. with "up" basically serving as a destination for "on", a "location", if you will, of an improved status. More plausibly, the phrase can also be differently interpreted as the simple verb "moving" followed by the compound preposition "on up" (a construction common in Southern and African-American English, whence this particular phrase, the title of the theme song to The Jeffersons, with a synergistic implication of progress or advancement), with an unspecified "understood" object of some better destination, namely again a higher social status in the Jeffersons' case. Either way, the "On" gets capitalized as part of a phrasal verb,  as the start of a compound preposition. If we had different rules for those cases, then we'd have a new argument to go through.  "Dancing on My Own", though, is both structurally and meaningfully equivalent to Billy Idol's "Dancing with Myself" (and someone else's hypothetical song "Dancing by Myself") other than that "my+self" has become an orthographically fused compound while my+own has not. No one would [sensibly] argue that "with" or "by" isn't serving a prepositional function in those. "On" is, too, just a metaphorical one. If I say "I'm in the doldrums" I metaphorically mean I'm experiencing a lack of productivity, inspiration, activity, etc.; not that I'm literally  (within, inside of, enclosed by) something (nor, for that matter, that the something is an unwanted windless calm at sea that had stranded me for the time being). Even "with" and "by" aren't serving a  function here; no one can actually be  (alongside, accompanying) or  (beside, next to) oneself. It's pure accident that one of these phrases has "on" in it and others have "with" or "by". Lots of English idioms are this way, and conventionalized to a broad extent between the Early Modern and Modern English phases from inconsistent dialectal variations that had conflicting prepositions. You can see a lot of that kind of variation in Shakespeare and the King James Bible (e.g. "such stuff as dreams are made on" instead of "... made of").  If we had a song title of, say, "Dancing On into the Sunset", then we'd have a simple verb followed by a colloquial compound preposition of "on into", or a phrasal verb of "dancing on" followed by a one-word preposition "into"; they don't even have quite identical interpretations (we'd probably have to examine the lyrics to be sure which was intended). Either way, that construction is very different from "Dancing on My Own", which is simply verb + preposition + noun phrase (own as noun modified by pronoun determiner). That "own" in this sense (usually modified by "my", "your", or some other pronoun, or a proper name as in "Jane's own") is serving as a noun can be confirmed with The American Heritage Dictionary and various other such works. When it modifies a stand-alone noun, then pronoun/name+own is adjectival, as in "sleeping in your own bed". Contrast that with "sleeping on your own" (V+Pr+NP), where again the "on" isn't conveying a literal meaning of "on top of". No one, though, would argue that "sleeping on" in this sense is a phrasal verb (it could be in, e.g., "sleeping on until noon") or that "on" otherwise isn't a preposition here; it's just not one conveying its most common meaning, as "on" also isn't in "dancing on my own". Yet "sleeping on your own" and "dancing on my own" are structurally equivalent phrases, right down the role and form of every single element in them.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:18, 2 March 2024 (UTC)