Talk:Dual diagnosis

Dual
"Dual Diagnosis" has been used to refer to the occurrence of Mental Illness in people with Mental Retardation (nowadays called Intellectual Disability, Learning Disability, Developmental Disability, etc) at least since the founding in 1983 of the National Association for the Dually Diagnosed: see their website at www.thenadd.org. This usage is generally not known to mental health professionals, who typically consider learning disabled people to be immune to mental illness. The anonymous editor who excised this meaning of the term from the main article a fortnight ago obviously shares that belief. NRPanikker (talk) 01:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Speaking of vernacular, how does this article's term differentiate from co-occurring disorders? Are they the same? JoeSmack Talk 21:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No, in general it is not usual to speak of someone with two medical conditions as having a "dual diagnosis." However in psychiatry more pains are taken to bring all the phenomena observed under one heading. The term "dual diagnosis" can be used to refer to people with mental retardation who develop a mental illness. The expression seems to have been introduced because separate training leads many mental health workers to assume that the two conditions cannot coexist, or to be so struck by the presence of mental retardation as to be unable to see the mental illness: this is the converse phenomenon, known as "diagnostic overshadowing." It can be seen in the main article, where another editor removed the account of this condition, through inability to accept the existence of intellectual diability at all, and substituted the other use of the phrase, for the co-existence of mental illness with substance abuse. NRPanikker (talk) 23:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Citations badly needed... not a wikipedian so don't know how to insert the several dozen flags this article needs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.134.254.89 (talk) 10:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The Canadian Mental Health ASsociation (CMHA) defines dual diagnosis as meaning a developmental disability and a mental illness and says this is the dominant meaning in Canada, whereas in the US it refers to addiction and mental illness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.180.199.227 (talk) 14:41, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

'substance misuse disorder'
You know the prevalence section opens with talk of a 'substance misuse disorder'. Never heard of that one - maybe it's from the DSM III? I'm not that young at 25 am I? Both links do not mention a misuse disorder in the abstract, only an abuse/dependence disorder as the DSM IV actually has spelled out... JoeSmack Talk 04:02, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Are psychiatric disorders medical diseases?
Psychiatric disorders are not medical diseases. [citation needed] There are no lab tests, brain scans, X-rays or chemical imbalance tests that can verify any mental disorder is a physical condition requiring psychiatric drugs. [citation needed] This is a controversial position to publish uncited. NAMI states the opposite in the first line of its definition of "Mental Illness." NAMI makes this claim without proof by just comparing "Mental Illness" to diabetes, there are many lab tests for diabetes to confirm diabetes is a medical disease. NAMI gets a significant portion of its funding from pharmaceutical companies, up to 75%.

I moved this section out of the article, because it is rather like a discussion. Please, whoever worked on this text, discuss here! Lova Falk    talk   17:49, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Off-topic section (split?)
The section titled "Overview" is not about what the rest of the article covers. Per WP:NOTDIC, articles cover topics, not terms, so having an article cover two topics that happen to have the same term is not appropriate. I don't know if there is an existent place for this tangential information, but if there isn't then we should split this into two separate articles. I'm not sure what the titles should be, we might do co-occurring disorders and dual diagnosis with clarifying hatnotes to help disambiguate. We could also have both of them called "dual diagnosis" but with disambiguating parentheticals on both (with a subsequent disambiguation page) or on just one. Thoughts? — Æµ§œš¹  [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 21:08, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You are quite right, and, to confuse matters even more, as far as I understand, in DSM-5 some diagnoses will be moved to different axes. I think I would prefer both to be called dual diagnosis with parentheticals but I can't come up with a good idea for short descriptions.  Lova Falk     talk   09:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I just chopped a fair bit from the overview section, as it really wasn't relevant or useful. I think if there is going to be a section or an article on concurrent axis I and II disorders, it should give information on the interaction between the two, rather than simply a) this is what happens with axis I, and b) this is what happens with axis II.  There is some mention later in the article about integrated treatment for concurrent mental and substance use disorders, which is a useful type of information to include (I'll beef that up a bit when I have more time). From what I've read, it sounds like dual diagnosis is an older term that is being replaced by co-occurring disorders (more American usage) or concurrent disorders (more Canadian usage). Ashleyleia (talk) 22:53, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

RESPONSE TO FIRECATALTA - SCIACCA REMOVED AGAIN. With the criteria you used to remove the Sciacca text you will need to remove 99% of the text in the dual diagnosis article. The references, except for the "report to congress" are primary in all other cases, not tertiary. All are references to author's own work as contribution to the field. You may need to remove each of these and request tertiary sources for each of them to keep this article fair, unbiased and unprejudiced. Your statement "we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article" is applicable to everyone referenced by their own primary source literature in this article, not just Sciacca. Examples examples: Drake, Mueser, and many others. Some of the text is followed by misleading references. For example the current text in the article specific to "integrated treatment" is followed by a primary source reference by "Drake" (self authored). Drake did not initiate integrated treatment and may have talked about it in his article. On the other hand -There are many tertiary sources for Sciacca's work, here are some of them: 1998 -SAMHSA-CMHS Managed Care Initiative Co-Occurring Disorder Report: Co-Occurring Psychiatric and Substance Disorders in Managed Care Systems: Standards of Care, Practice Guidelines, Workforce Competencies and Training Curricula. This was the first federal report on dual diagnosis - co-occurring disorders. Sciacca's work is included from various perspectives and references are included in the report. Minkoff, K. 1991' " Program Components of Comprehensive Integrated Care System for Serious Mentally Ill Patients with Subsance Disorders." New Directions for Mental Health Services, Dual Diagnosis of Major Mental Illness and Substance Disorders, Eds., Minkoff, K and Drake, R., Jossey-Bass, publishers, summer 1991, #50. Minkoff discusses and references Sciacca's work. Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Government of the District of Columbia, 1999 "29 Mental Health Care Providers Honored for ATMI Program Implementation" Publication of the Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Fall 1999. This article details the dual diagnosis training and program implementation initiative and details of the graduation of 29 providers and agencies. Sciacca was the consultant, trainer and implementer of these services and named as such. The second phase of this initiative was outlined -here Sciacca was to service 51 additional treatment teams - which in fact occurred. Giglioti, M. A. 1986 "Program Initiatives for Dually-Diagnosed at Harlem Valley Psychiatric Center. Dual Diagnosis -Co-occurring Disorders." New York State Commission on Quality of Care Publication, Issue 28, October 1986. This article details the Sciacca initiative from its inception in 1984 and describes this work. The Commission on Quality of care thoroughly reviewed this work on program sites. Gorman, C., 1987 "Bad Trips for the Doubly Troubled" TIME Magazine, August 3, 1987, Pg. 58. Sciacca's work is detailed in this article. Her programs were visited by Gorman, clients were interviewed, treatment groups were attended and the report was published internationally. Lipman, H. 1988 "Mental-health system fails alcoholics, drug abusers" Albany Times Union, March 13, 1988, Pg. 1.. Brown, V. B., 1989 "The Dual Crisis: Mental Illness and Substance Abuse" American Psychologist. Volume 44, No. 3, March 1989, Pg. 565. I provided a lengthy response to the previous editor who eradicated this area of text. In the response I noted that the original text in this area included numerous references. There was an interum edit that removed many of the references (some tertiary) and left the three that are included in the text now in question. I have done a lot of work validating a piece of text that does not do this historical work justice. Those who have eradicated the modest text that addressed the history of this work do not appear to be willing to extend themselves or their efforts to learn about the premise and the history of dual diagnosis. This is not a basis for eradicating text. 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:04, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

RESPONSE TO FIRECATALTA - SCIACCA REMOVED AGAIN. With the criteria you used to remove the Sciacca text you will need to remove 99% of the text in the dual diagnosis article. The references, except for the "report to congress" are primary in all other cases, not tertiary. All are references to author's own work as contribution to the field. You may need to remove each of these and request tertiary sources for each of them to keep this article fair, unbiased and unprejudiced. Your statement "we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article" is applicable to everyone referenced by their own primary source literature in this article, not just Sciacca. Examples examples: Drake, Mueser, and many others. Some of the text is followed by misleading references. For example the current text in the article specific to "integrated treatment" is followed by a primary source reference by "Drake" (self authored). Drake did not initiate integrated treatment and may have talked about it in his article. On the other hand -There are many tertiary sources for Sciacca's work, here are some of them: 1998 -SAMHSA-CMHS Managed Care Initiative Co-Occurring Disorder Report: Co-Occurring Psychiatric and Substance Disorders in Managed Care Systems: Standards of Care, Practice Guidelines, Workforce Competencies and Training Curricula. This was the first federal report on dual diagnosis - co-occurring disorders. Sciacca's work is included from various perspectives and references are included in the report. Minkoff, K. 1991' " Program Components of Comprehensive Integrated Care System for Serious Mentally Ill Patients with Subsance Disorders." New Directions for Mental Health Services, Dual Diagnosis of Major Mental Illness and Substance Disorders, Eds., Minkoff, K and Drake, R., Jossey-Bass, publishers, summer 1991, #50. Minkoff discusses and references Sciacca's work. Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Government of the District of Columbia, 1999 "29 Mental Health Care Providers Honored for ATMI Program Implementation" Publication of the Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Fall 1999. This article details the dual diagnosis training and program implementation initiative and details of the graduation of 29 providers and agencies. Sciacca was the consultant, trainer and implementer of these services and named as such. The second phase of this initiative was outlined -here Sciacca was to service 51 additional treatment teams - which in fact occurred. Giglioti, M. A. 1986 "Program Initiatives for Dually-Diagnosed at Harlem Valley Psychiatric Center. Dual Diagnosis -Co-occurring Disorders." New York State Commission on Quality of Care Publication, Issue 28, October 1986. This article details the Sciacca initiative from its inception in 1984 and describes this work. The Commission on Quality of care thoroughly reviewed this work on program sites. Gorman, C., 1987 "Bad Trips for the Doubly Troubled" TIME Magazine, August 3, 1987, Pg. 58. Sciacca's work is detailed in this article. Her programs were visited by Gorman, clients were interviewed, treatment groups were attended and the report was published internationally. Lipman, H. 1988 "Mental-health system fails alcoholics, drug abusers" Albany Times Union, March 13, 1988, Pg. 1.. Brown, V. B., 1989 "The Dual Crisis: Mental Illness and Substance Abuse" American Psychologist. Volume 44, No. 3, March 1989, Pg. 565. I provided a lengthy response to the editor Lova Falk who previously eradicated this area of text and whom you are now assisting. Lova Falk stated that she reinstated the text but I do not see it in the article. So I suppose you removed it after she put it back. Is that so? In the to response to Lova Falk, which you indicated that you read, I noted that the original text in this area included numerous references. There was an interum edit that removed many of the references some tertiary) and left the three reference that are included in the text that is now in question. I have done a lot of work validating a piece of text that does not do this historical work justice. Those who have eradicated the modest text that addressed the history of this work do not appear to be willing to extend themselves or their efforts to learn about the premise and the history of dual diagnosis. This is not a basis for eradicating text. 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Sciacca removed again ' Hi all! I've re-removed the text below. The current sources are primary, which is fantastic once we have already established Sciacca's notability by way of secondary or tertiary sources, but until then, we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article. Does anyone have access to such sources? If so, please reply with the appropriate reliable, secondary or tertiary (not written by Scaccia) sources to back up Scaccia's inclusion in this article. Thanks! Firecatalta (talk) 00:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC) Sciacca reported a key early integrated treatment approach which began in 1984 in New York state.[1] This began in an outpatient mental health clinic and expanded to a state-wide initiative. This initiative crossed systems to include substance abuse programs, homeless services, and criminal justice services. It included inpatient, outpatient and residential treatment. This initiative addressed screening, assessment, outcome measures and treatment. This treatment approach, along with its training curriculum and program implementation model, was also adapted across systems in various states including Michigan.[2] In 1993, evidence based interventions such as motivational interviewing, the stages of change and cognitive behavioral therapy were integrated into the dual diagnosis treatment model and comprise the treatment approach and integrated care model that exists today [3] 1. Sciacca, K. 1996 "On Co-occurring Addictive and Mental Disorders: A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development" American Journal of Orhtopsychiatry (66) 3, July 1996. http://www.scribd.com/doc/16684317/On-Cooccurring-Addictive-Mental-Disorders-a-Brief-History-Kathleen-Sciacca 2. Sciacca, K., Thompson, C.M., 1996 "Program Development and Integrated Treatment Across Systems for Dual Diagnosis: Mental Illness, Drug Addiction and Alcoholism, MIDAA" The Journal of Mental Health Administration, Vol. 23, No.3, Summer 1996, 288-297. http://www.scribd.com/doc/17223077/Program-Development-and-Integrated-Treatment-Across-Systems-for-Dual-Diagnosis-Kathleen-Sciacca 3. Sciacca, K. 2009 "Best Practices for Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development: Co-Occurring Mental Illness and Substance Disorders in Various Combinations" The Praeger International Collections on Addictions, Editor, Angela Brown-Miller, Vol.3, Chapt.9, Pgs. 161-188, Praeger Westport, CT. London, http://www.scribd.com/doc/21801032/BestPracticesForDualDiagnosisTreatment-ProgramDevelopment-Co-occurring-Mental-Illness-Substance-Disorders-Kathleen-Sciacca-2009 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC) Thank you!

Thank you for your help with Dual diagnosis. I just don't have the energy for this discussion, so I'm gone from that article. Thank you once more! Lova Falk talk 17:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC){{-} Absolutely! I definitely know the feeling. Glad to be of assistance, and I hope you're doing well! Firecatalta (talk) 20:33, 3 July 2013 (UTC) 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Sciacca removed again[edit]

' Hi all! I've re-removed the text below. The current sources are primary, which is fantastic once we have already established Sciacca's notability by way of secondary or tertiary sources, but until then, we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article. Does anyone have access to such sources? If so, please reply with the appropriate reliable, secondary or tertiary (not written by Scaccia) sources to back up Scaccia's inclusion in this article. Thanks! Firecatalta (talk) 00:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC) Sciacca reported a key early integrated treatment approach which began in 1984 in New York state.[1] This began in an outpatient mental health clinic and expanded to a state-wide initiative. This initiative crossed systems to include substance abuse programs, homeless services, and criminal justice services. It included inpatient, outpatient and residential treatment. This initiative addressed screening, assessment, outcome measures and treatment. This treatment approach, along with its training curriculum and program implementation model, was also adapted across systems in various states including Michigan.[2] In 1993, evidence based interventions such as motivational interviewing, the stages of change and cognitive behavioral therapy were integrated into the dual diagnosis treatment model and comprise the treatment approach and integrated care model that exists today [3] 1. Sciacca, K. 1996 "On Co-occurring Addictive and Mental Disorders: A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development" American Journal of Orhtopsychiatry (66) 3, July 1996. http://www.scribd.com/doc/16684317/On-Cooccurring-Addictive-Mental-Disorders-a-Brief-History-Kathleen-Sciacca 2. Sciacca, K., Thompson, C.M., 1996 "Program Development and Integrated Treatment Across Systems for Dual Diagnosis: Mental Illness, Drug Addiction and Alcoholism, MIDAA" The Journal of Mental Health Administration, Vol. 23, No.3, Summer 1996, 288-297. http://www.scribd.com/doc/17223077/Program-Development-and-Integrated-Treatment-Across-Systems-for-Dual-Diagnosis-Kathleen-Sciacca 3. Sciacca, K. 2009 "Best Practices for Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development: Co-Occurring Mental Illness and Substance Disorders in Various Combinations" The Praeger International Collections on Addictions, Editor, Angela Brown-Miller, Vol.3, Chapt.9, Pgs. 161-188, Praeger Westport, CT. London, http://www.scribd.com/doc/21801032/BestPracticesForDualDiagnosisTreatment-ProgramDevelopment-Co-occurring-Mental-Illness-Substance-Disorders-Kathleen-Sciacca-2009 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Sciacca removed
I removed the following text from the article:

''Sciacca reported a key early integrated treatment approach which began in 1984 in New York state.[16] This began in an outpatient mental health clinic and expanded to a state-wide initiative. This initiative crossed systems to include substance abuse programs, homeless services, and criminal justice services. It included inpatient, outpatient and residential treatment. This initiative addressed screening, assessment, outcome measures and treatment. This treatment approach, along with its training curriculum and program implementation model, was also adapted across systems in various states including Michigan.[17] In 1993, evidence based interventions such as motivational interviewing, the stages of change and cognitive behavioral therapy were integrated into the dual diagnosis treatment model and comprise the treatment approach and integrated care model that exists today [18] 16. Sciacca, K. 1996 "On Co-occurring Addictive and Mental Disorders: A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development" American Journal of Orhtopsychiatry (66) 3, July 1996. http://www.scribd.com/doc/16684317/On-Cooccurring-Addictive-Mental-Disorders-a-Brief-History-Kathleen-Sciacca 17. Sciacca, K., Thompson, C.M., 1996 "Program Development and Integrated Treatment Across Systems for Dual Diagnosis: Mental Illness, Drug Addiction and Alcoholism, MIDAA" The Journal of Mental Health Administration, Vol. 23, No.3, Summer 1996, 288-297. http://www.scribd.com/doc/17223077/Program-Development-and-Integrated-Treatment-Across-Systems-for-Dual-Diagnosis-Kathleen-Sciacca 18. Sciacca, K. 2009 "Best Practices for Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development: Co-Occurring Mental Illness and Substance Disorders in Various Combinations" The Praeger International Collections on Addictions, Editor, Angela Brown-Miller, Vol.3, Chapt.9, Pgs. 161-188, Praeger Westport, CT. London, http://www.scribd.com/doc/21801032/BestPracticesForDualDiagnosisTreatment-ProgramDevelopment-Co-occurring-Mental-Illness-Substance-Disorders-Kathleen-Sciacca-2009 ''

My reason for removing this text is that the treatment section is a general section with broad information. No doubt that this is a nice approach, but it is way too specific for this article. This is an encyclopedia for the whole world. I know a similar initiative in a treatment center in Sweden, and I guess they exist throughout the world. Please, before putting this back into the article, tell us why Sciacca's approach is notable. With friendly regards,  Lova Falk     talk   10:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

REPLY to "I removed the following text from the article"

This Sciacca text that was removed comprises the history of dual diagnosis treatment (not just a nice model); it is an important element and the foundation of dual diagnosis treatment and integrated programs. Sciacca designed and initiated the first treatment interventions and the initial model of integrated treatment when there was "no" treatment available anywhere for people who suffered symptoms of dual disorders, co-occurring mental illness and substance disorders (rather they suffered neglect); this was accomplished by Sciacca and colleagues at the New York State Office of Mental health. Official reports such as the New York State Commission on Quality of care's scathing report documented the downward spiral into homelessness and incarceration for clients who had every right to treatment but in many cases were ostracized. This did not only occur within New York State, or the United States, it was an international problem. All systems and services of care were discrete, either mental health or substance disorders. No one had integrated treatment for co-occurring mental illness and substance disorders in 1984.

TIME magazine became aware of the commission's report, the national statistics by Talbott, the Sciacca model and the New York Statewide initiative and published an article about all of it in 1987. This work began in 1984 and was well developed by 1987. A variety of small publications noted this work and then it became more public and reached larger journals. Seminars, lectures and workshop presentations of the Sciacca model were requested and presented. This was another forum for educating large groups of providers in various levels of detail.

In response to your wondering about a program you know about in Sweden, please note that administrators, psychiatrists and psychologists from Sweden visited Sciacca in New York where they requested and were presented a seminar on dual diagnosis treatment. As a result, they invited Sciacca to Stockholm where she provided training for approximately one week to a very large number of treatment providers from a variety of disciplines including administrators who were invited by the initial group. This training consisted of dual diagnosis client profiles and their specific treatment needs, dual diagnosis treatment and dual diagnosis program development. This model was manualized and included all clinical materials, treatment and program materials. It would not be surprising if dual diagnosis programs in Sweden were initiated through that training. The training was held in Sabbatsbergs hospital.

Initially when Sciacca's work was written into the Wikipedia dual diagnosis piece there were many references to document the work through SAMHSA (the workforce competencies report by Sciacca) and numerous initiatives across states, cities, in various communities that adapted this approach. Someone edited the original version of the Wikipedia text and removed many of the references. Key elements of the Sciacca best-practices model have evolved into evidence-based approaches and remain the best practices of today - one in particular "integrated treatment." This was a very difficult and laborious approach to accomplish. Very few people accepted the premise that their system would now be responsible for client' symptoms that had been designated to another system since their beginning. It took stamina, persistence and indirect approaches to achieve this initially and then to nurture the integrated premise along to acceptance on a large scale - one treatment program at a time; one community at a time, one city at a time, one state at a time, one country at a time and throughout numerous systems. More than a nice approach - dual diagnosis treatment represented major change from a systems perspective and from the perspective of the individual practitioner. Education, training, practice and acceptance were implemented initially and went on to become essential elements of this change. We are still far from providing the amount of services that are needed for many who so sorely need them.

The few sentences that were left in the Wikipedia piece that you have since removed do not adequately describe the extent and intricacies of this initial work: for example what integrating systems really entails; what the process of educating and training providers in this area is about and how to do so initially with resistant participants; what developing treatment for people who had co-occurring symptoms entailed -notably for people who had never had these symptoms treated before. Every element needed to be created, designed, tested until a working model emerged. Clinical and program materials such as screening, assessment, interventions, outcome measures needed to be designed and implemented; staff curriculum and training; program implementation strategies and materials. All of this was new, all of it required new initiatives.

Dual Diagnosis is a young field and its history needs to remain in tact; no history should ever be rewritten or eliminated. This Sciacca segment needs to be put back into the Wikipedia dual diagnosis piece. It could have more references and perhaps more detail - there are many references to be drawn upon. A good author or editor could perhaps do this historical segment justice and convey the importance of the transitions and major change needed to accomplish dual diagnosis treatment and integrated care. It should be given its proper place in the history of this field. (108.58.58.122 (talk) 06:46, 24 June 2013 (UTC)).

24.215.246.197 (talk) 00:43, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi there! Thanks for providing so much information on the background of Sciacca and her contributions.  Could you provide a reliable secondary or tertiary source in which the author discusses Sciacca's notability as a founder of treatment(s) for dual diagnosis (or point us to where that information is located in the sources currently provided)?  I think that would help indicate whether and where to reintegrate this information into the article.  Firecatalta (talk) 02:32, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi 24.215.246.197. I undid my edit and Sciacca is back in. I tried to formulate a response to you but I just don't have the energy. I'll remove this article from my watchlist.  Lova Falk     talk   17:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

"External references"
The section "External references" (which actually was not so much a references section as a Further reading section) had grown out of control, so I have moved it out of the article into this talk page. Please see Further reading and put only entries that are topical, reliable and balanced, and please, keep the section limited in size. "Wikipedia is not a catalogue of all existing works." Please, if you add an entry back into the article, motivate why. Thank you! Lova Falk    talk   11:00, 10 April 2013 (UTC)



RESPONSE TO FIRECATALTA - SCIACCA REMOVED AGAIN.
With the criteria you used to remove the Sciacca text you will need to remove 99% of the text in the dual diagnosis article. The references, except for the "report to congress" are primary in all other cases, not tertiary. All are references to author's own work as contribution to the field. You may need to remove each of these and request tertiary sources for each of them to keep this article fair, unbiased and unprejudiced. Your statement "we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article" is applicable to everyone referenced by their own primary source literature in this article, not just Sciacca. Examples examples: Drake, Mueser, and many others. Some of the text is followed by misleading references. For example the current text in the article specific to "integrated treatment" is followed by a primary source reference by "Drake" (self authored). Drake did not initiate integrated treatment and may have talked about it in his article.

On the other hand -There are many tertiary sources for Sciacca's work, here are some of them:

1998 -SAMHSA-CMHS Managed Care Initiative Co-Occurring Disorder Report: Co-Occurring Psychiatric and Substance Disorders in Managed Care Systems: Standards of Care, Practice Guidelines, Workforce Competencies and Training Curricula. Minkoff, K. 1991' " Program Components of Comprehensive Integrated Care System for Serious Mentally Ill Patients with Subsance Disorders." New Directions for Mental Health Services, Dual Diagnosis of Major Mental Illness and Substance Disorders, Eds.,  Minkoff, K  and Drake, R.,  Jossey-Bass, publishers, summer 1991, #50. '''Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Government of the District of Columbia, 1999 ''' "29 Mental Health Care Providers Honored for ATMI Program Implementation"  Publication of the Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Fall 1999. service 51 additional treatment teams - which in fact occurred.
 * This was the first federal report on dual diagnosis - co-occurring disorders. Sciacca's work is included from various perspectives and references are included in the report.
 * Minkoff discusses and references Sciacca's work.
 * This article details the dual diagnosis training and program implementation initiative and details of the graduation of 29 providers and agencies. Sciacca was the consultant, trainer and implementer of these services and named as such.  The second phase of this initiative was outlined -here Sciacca was to

Giglioti, M. A. 1986 "Program Initiatives for Dually-Diagnosed at Harlem Valley Psychiatric Center. Dual Diagnosis -Co-occurring Disorders." New York State Commission on Quality of Care Publication, Issue 28, October 1986. The Commission on Quality of care thoroughly reviewed this work on program sites.
 * This article details the Sciacca initiative from its inception in 1984 and describes this work.

Gorman, C., 1987  "Bad Trips for the Doubly Troubled"  TIME Magazine, August 3, 1987, Pg. 58.
 * Sciacca's work is detailed in this article. Her programs were visited by Gorman, clients were interviewed, treatment groups were attended and the report was published internationally.

Lipman, H. 1988 "Mental-health system fails alcoholics, drug abusers"  Albany Times Union, March 13, 1988, Pg. 1..

Brown, V. B., 1989 "The Dual Crisis: Mental Illness and Substance Abuse" American Psychologist. Volume 44, No. 3, March 1989, Pg. 565.

I provided a lengthy response to the previous editor who eradicated this area of text. In the response I noted that the original text in this area included numerous references. There was an interum edit that removed many of the references (some tertiary) and left the three that are included in the text now in question. I have done a lot of work validating a piece of text that does not do this historical work justice. Those who have eradicated the modest text that addressed the history of this work do not appear to be willing to extend themselves or their efforts to learn about the premise and the history of dual diagnosis. This is not a basis for eradicating text. 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:04, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi there,


 * Here are Wikipedia's definitions of primary, secondary, and tertiary sources that will hopefully clear up any confusion about how to classify a source, as well as which type of sources to use: How to classify sources. A basic rule of thumb is that a source in which someone is writing about herself is primary.  A source in which someone is writing about someone else, about general information, or about an event that she was not directly involved in, is secondary.  A source that discusses one or more secondary sources is tertiary.  All the current sources for this article are secondary or tertiary, in that the authors are not discussing themselves.  A source written by Scaccia, if used to discuss scientific information, would be secondary; a source by Scaccia, if used to discuss Scaccia, would be primary.


 * As you know, all information in wikipedia articles must be notable. Here are guidelines for how to tell if someone or something is notable, and therefore appropriate to include in a wikipedia article: Guidelines for Notability.  Establishing notability requires secondary or tertiary sources.  Once notability is established using these sources (i.e. not written by the author), then we can use primary sources to elaborate.  However, the three sources for the Scaccia section were all primary -- that is, the information was about Scaccia, and the sources were written by Scaccia.


 * Before going any further with my reply, does that make sense? WP guidelines can be confusing at first, so I want to make sure we're on the same page before I keep writing.  Firecatalta (talk) 22:34, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

From the descriptions you have given this is what I understand. A primary source is an author writing about his or her own work or an article about his or her area of work that he or she authors. If this is correct there are more than a few primary source references in the dual diagnosis article. You asked for secondary or tertiary sources for the dual diagnosis history text - the work of Sciacca. I have provided you with both of those. If you would like me to go over them and determine which ones are secondary and which are tertiary I can do that for you. For example: The 1998 SAMHSA -federal report is tertiary for example - it discusses a number of areas of Sciacca's initiatives - family programs, integrated care, training curricula, workforce development, etc. Sources come from book chapters, journal articles, and other publications, references are included for each area discussed. The Minkoff article would be secondary, he writes about Sciacca's work and references it in his broader article. The Gigliotti article ( a real historical piece) is tertiary; The commission examined many areas. Their initial report described dually diagnosed cients without treatment "The Multiple Dilemmas of the Multiply Disabled. There discovery of Sciacca's work led them to examine it and scrutinize it in comparison to their previous discoveries.  Their reports on the Sciacca initiative addressed many areas; and they detailed each of them. What needs to be understood here in this very early work there was no body of literature to draw upon. Are we on the same page?24.215.246.197 (talk) 23:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for going through the sources for me! That was actually very helpful.  I think you've certainly demonstrated that Sciacca is notable; the question then becomes where to place that information.  Based on the number of sources you've gathered, it sounds like Sciacca might actually deserve her own article.  What are your thoughts on that?  Firecatalta (talk) 23:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I am glad that you have recognized the merits of Sciacca's work as noteworthy. It would be a great contribution to have an article on Sciacca's work for dual diagnosis as well as for other clinical areas and program initiatives. It is pioneering work with many aspects and elements and it demonstrates what perseverance and genuine advocacy can accomplish. Would you initiate the development of a Sciacca article? On the other hand, it is important to replace the historical element of dual diagnosis back into the existing article. As it is now there is not a trace of this work in the dual diagnosis article and it needs to be there. I believe the text that was removed was the opening text in the "Treatment" section (maybe after the first sentence "only a small portion.........problem, and vice versa." There could be additional references added to the text from those I provided for you.  There are many important works/references that are primary and secondary (research inclusive) sources written by Sciacca and Sciacca and co-authors as well.  You seem to be a much more experienced editor at Wikipedia than I am.  I will appreciate if you will put this section of the tex back into the article.  Also, let me know if you want to proceed with a Sciacca article.24.215.246.197 (talk) 02:21, 5 July 2013 (UTC) Thank you.


 * Hi there! Sorry it took me so long to reply; life outside of wikipedia has been very busy, and I appreciate your patience.  So here's what I'm thinking - first, I think you're right that we should definitely have a historical section for the Dual Diagnosis article, and we should put some thought into that (e.g. do we want it to be a history of dual diagnosis, a history of treatments for dual diagnosis, things like that).  I also definitely think we should have an article on Sciacca; the only problem is that I don't have time to start one (related to the things that keep me away from replying for so long).  However, I would be happy to guide you through making one, if you would like!  It can be daunting to create an article, but I think you would do a fantastic job.  You have access to excellent sources, and you know precisely where to find the relevant material on Sciacca.


 * So that's what I'm thinking: first, that we should definitely add a history section to Dual diagnosis, after figuring out what it will be the history of (history of dual diagnosis vs. history of treatments for dual diagnosis), and second, that I would love to guide you through making a Sciacca article and think you would do a great job of it. What are your thoughts?  Firecatalta (talk) 16:23, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello - it is good to hear back from you. The Sciacca text we originally discussed has been removed from the article more than once in one felt swoop. It has been eliminated from the article for a very long period of time..not good and not authentic to the piece. Right now it is agreed it should go back and I believe it should go back as it was until -or during the time further sections and edits are considered. "History of treatment and program development" could be a good new section of the article; but for now the original text needs to go back where it was. I would like you or someone with your experience to put it back because you are an experienced editor on Wikipedia - I on the other hand do not know how to reintegrated the references or include them properly. Could you do that for now? According to Lova Falk it just takes a reversed action. In the meantime I can work on (also busy and will be away) the "History of treatment and program development" section and get it over to you with references so we can confer on it before including, etc. If you are too busy to reinstate the removed text I will do it myself and someone will come to my aid with the references as has happened before. Please let me know. NOTE: This tertiary reference can be included: 1998 -SAMHSA-CMHS Managed Care Initiative Co-Occurring Disorder Report: Co-Occurring Psychiatric and Substance Disorders in Managed Care Systems: Standards of Care, Practice Guidelines, Workforce Competencies and Training Curricula. Thank you - I hope we can get this done for now; it will take a bit of time for me to prepare a history section and get it out to you. Regarding the Sciacca page I will need assistance with this and I do not think I can take it on right now.24.215.246.197 (talk) 13:27, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I have not had a response from you - I have just returned.. Can you put the Sciacca text back either where it was before it was removed, in treatment; or under a new heading "History of treatment and program development." Please let me know if you are going to do this or if I should it. As I said a few times I am not skilled at reinstating the references, I would need someone to put them back in order in the reference section and identified them appropriately in the text. But if you are too busy to put it back then I will. Could you take a minute and let me know. I have given this much of my time. Thank you.24.215.246.197 (talk) 01:00, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi there! Sorry for the delay in my reply.  Unfortunately work is very busy during the week, so I do most of my editing on Sundays.  I know it can be frustrating to wait for a reply, especially when an issue is very important to you, so thank you for your patience.


 * First, I think knowing how to put in references is very important to your agency on wikipedia, and I would be happy to show you how to put them in! An easy way to do so is to click the "Edit Source" tab, rather than the "Edit" tab, which you can find at the top of the page or at the top of whichever section you are editing.  From there, you will see a menu of options at the top of the box of tex that you are working with.  In the lower left-hand corner, you will see a box labeled "Templates" - click on that box, select the type of citation you would like to insert (e.g. web, news, book, or journal), and a form will pop up that you can fill in with the appropriate information.  The template will then format the citation for you and put it in.  If you don't see a "Templates" box (for instance, if you have been working with one of the other menu options), click on the "Cite" button and it will return you to the citations menu, along with the Templates box in the lower left-hand corner.  Let me know if you have any difficulties or questions with this, and I would be glad to help trouble-shoot.


 * On the subject of putting the text back in, you and I definitely both agree that Sciacca is notable. The question just becomes where the information about her contributions belongs: in a biographical article about Sciacca, or in the dual diagnosis article, or perhaps some of both?


 * For example, in the article about major depressive disorder, the section on management (analogous to dual diagnosis' "Treatment" section) includes general information about different types of treatment, such as different types of psychotherapy, antidepressants, and ECT. There are a few names mentioned, since they were the clear pioneers of that type of treatment, such as Freud for psychoanalysis and Viktor Frankl for Logotherapy.  Otherwise, no names are mentioned, since there are usually many people who contribute to the development of a particular type of treatment.  So even though CBT is a highly prominent treatment for depression, no names are mentioned in that section because so many people contributed to its development.  However, the pioneers who contributed to the development of CBT are certainly notable, and many of their names are mentioned in the article on cognitive behavioral therapy.  The biographical articles about each of those individuals then include their specific contributions to the field, even though they are not mentioned in the depression article.


 * Similarly, we might include a more extensive history of people who contributed to integrated treatments in an article specifically about integrated treatments, whereas in the article about dual diagnosis, we would include more general information about dual diagnosis, and would not mention names unless they were the key players. We would then have detailed information about the contributions of each contributor in his or her biographical article.


 * In our case, it does seem that Sciacca was one of the key players in the initial development of integrated treatments. Honestly and truly, the only difficulty I have with putting her back in the dual diagnosis article is that to include her, she has to be the clear pioneer of the field, analogous to Freud or Frankl.  Otherwise, it violates wikipedia's policy of not giving undue weight to an element of an article.  We have to justify why we are including Sciacca by name but not any of the other early pioneers of integrated treatments. For that, there needs to be a source not written by Sciacca in which the author explicitly states that Sciacca was the pioneer of integrated treatments.  The sources I am currently able to access describe her research, but do not explicitly state that she was the pioneer of integrated treatments.


 * I know it seems like that is something we could just do ourselves (why can't we just look at the dates, see that 1984 comes before 1990, and conclude that therefore Sciacca's were the first until we find something earlier?), but the cardinal rule of Wikipedia is that there must be no original research. <- Follow that link to have a deeper look at the no OR policy.  That is, even though I do believe from the reading I've done so far that Sciacca is one of the pioneers of the field, I'm not allowed to include original research in this or any article, no matter how true I think it is.  I am very sensitive to the fact that just because something has not been written about by a third-party does not mean that it is not the case, and I am very, very sensitive to the fact that the contributions of women to science are absolutely neglected by history.  So to emphasize, I know that even if Sciacca's contributions have not been documented as "the first" by external authors, it does not mean that she was not the first.  The problem is just that to include her in this article based on her status as the pioneer of the field, Wikipedia policy requires that we have a reliable source not written by Sciacca that explicitly discusses her as the pioneer, or that describes her work as being the first.


 * Which brings us back to the sources (big sigh here, I know!). As mentioned above, do you know if any of the secondary or tertiary sources that I don't have access to (if you do have access) explicitly describe Sciacca as the pioneer of the field of integrated treatment, or describe her work as being the first?   If so, could you reply with that information and the relevant quotes?


 * I know that is frustrating, but documenting quotes here on the talk page will help make sure that if we re-insert Sciacca's information, other editors will be able to see the grounds on which we did it. The information will then be much less likely to be removed again if editors who weren't part of our conversation can see the quotes from the sources that explicitly describe Sciacca as the pioneer of integrated treatment, or that say that her treatments were the first.  I'll keep looking from my end as well.


 * Thanks, Firecatalta (talk) 17:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello, This conversation is becoming contrary, redundant and increasingly demanding with all of the effort and work continually thrown into my court. Why don't you care this much about all of the other referenced work in dual diagnosis? All of it must be equally scrutinized or this is discriminating. That is if you are/were in fact an authority figure in this encyclopedia and had the authority to keep this text out. I have been complying with all of your requests so that this could go back smoothly - but every time you're recommend reinstating the text you come up with other rules. Rules that do not apply to anyone else who is referenced in the dual diagnosis article> You will need to remove all of the other text one by one and get the documentation you are requiring for the Sciacca text. Lova Falk put the text back and you took it out again then said it should go back, Will someone else come along to take it out when you get too tired to talk to me like you did for Lova Falk? We can do this until one of us is deceased and "F" Sciacca. I also have other work to do, much of it... I want to resolved this and not by throwing Sciacca's years of work and foundation in this field in the garbage while others sit there without scrutiny.. I do not know why I am taking editors seriously who don't know anything about the history of this field. No one else seems to care. You decided to put it back but you keep coming up with more criteria that I am responsible to provide as though I work for you. I hope your enjoying this, it must be fun. You don't seem to care that this information is left out of the article while other misleading elements regarding integrated care convey a bias and a misleading reference. I have mentioned this numerous time. Several messages back you expressed your belief that the Sciacca text belonged back in the article and asked where it was before it was removed and if we should develop a new heading. Then on to creating a whole new page outside of the scope of the dual diagnosis page discussion; you are not going to create such a page. Now that we are up to simply reinstating the text - you have come up with more stringent considerations than what was requested before, namely tertiary and secondary references which have been provided. The criteria to include Sciacca who is the pioneer and founder of dual diagnosis treatment and integrated treatment exceeds any requirement to include anyone else's work in this article. Right now after the mention of integrated treatment there is a reference to Drake who had nothing whatsoever to to do with initiating integrated treatment, yet no one has removed that text or reference - how serious can you and your adherence to Wikipedia rules be? I may have failed to mention this but I also have other important things to do; things that I should be doing right now which is why this is becoming frustrating and upsetting and feels manipulative. However, for the next several hours I will read through the literature to give you quotes. After I give them to you will you have the courtesy to put the text, the quotes, the title the references and whatever else in the article???? Will you answer this question. Will it take another week to hear back from you???? Here you are: The articles that discuss Sciacca as the founder of dual diagnosis treatment and integrated treatment programs include: The Commission on Quality of care thoroughly reviewed this work at the actually program sites; interviewed Sciacca, NY State OMH administrators and more. Harlem Valley began to focus on this problem at a grass roots level."....."......Sciacca, Alcohol Substance Abuse Program Coordinator for Community Services..." Ms. Sciacca who has played a key role in developing the treatment model for these dually diagnosed clients remarked "There was no clear treatment model directly applicable to the dually diagnosed client population....We had to develop a treatment model that continually adapted to the needs of this special population and that featured a "non-confrontational" approach."  "We had to face the issue of not merely patient denial of these problems ," says Sciacca "but also staff denial - either that these problems existed or that they were possible to treat."  NOTE: The article goes on to detail the treatment model and the staff development and training initiatives.  Early client' outcome and key points of all elements of the integrated treatment and staff development model are detailed. All of these initiatives were integrated into existing programs of which there were numerous programs and program sites throughout this agency and the Office of Mental Health - all were integrated treatment - single site combined mental health and substance abuse treatment for dual diagnosis. Sciacca is named as the person to contact for further details and information. If you want more quotes from this article we can detail the entire treatment model, the integrated treatment and the staff development and program implementation across all services for which Sciacca is credited and the starting point is documented as "1984."
 * Giglioti, M. A. 1986 "Program Initiatives for Dually-Diagnosed at Harlem Valley Psychiatric Center. Dual Diagnosis -Co-occurring Disorders." New York State Commission on Quality of Care Publication, Issue 28, October 1986.
 * This article details the Sciacca initiative from its inception in 1984 and describes this work.
 * Quotes from Giglioti article: "These three cases illustrate a treatment approach in the Harlem Valley Psychiatric Center and its community service areas which employ effective strategies for treating very difficult patients: patients who are mentally ill with concomitant alcohol and substance use problems. (integrated treatment in both in-patient hospitals and community service programs)..... "About two years ago (1984)

Gorman, C., 1987  "Bad Trips for the Doubly Troubled"  TIME Magazine, August 3, 1987, Pg. 58. tailored for drug-dependent, mentally ill..... "There's been a tremendous grass-roots campaign to convince the mental health bureaucracy of the problem" says ........Sciacca " a substance abuse coordinator at Harlem Valley Psychiatric Center" in New York. "We know what approaches are necessary to treat these people. We just need to use them." NOTE: Being a "substance abuse coordinator" in a psychiatric facility is integrated treatment. were implemented across multiple program sites (Sciacca, 1987b). Early articles (Gigliotti, Sciacca) outlined these processes and documented there starting dates"......"The MICA training site for program and staff development NY State-wide" 1987, 1991 was created (Sciacca was the director). NOTE: Article proceeds to detail the initiative of the MICA training site... "hundreds of treatment providers, across systems, etc.." Sciacca's "national" work is discussed.  Another important model "inter-agency" program development across systems and services (Sciacca's work) is detailed. Minkoff, K. 1991' " Program Components of Comprehensive Integrated Care System for Serious Mentally Ill Patients with Subsance Disorders." New Directions for Mental Health Services, Dual Diagnosis of  Major Mental Illness and Substance Disorders, Eds.,  Minkoff, K  and Drake, R.,  Jossey-Bass, publishers, summer 1991, #50.  article in the same publication by Sciacca. "New Initiatives in the Treatment of the Chronic Patient with Alcohol / Substance Use Problems" TIE Lines Vol IV, No.3, This article details specific starting dates, details of treatment, integrated care, and much more. The way the Sciacca text that was removed reinstated and removed and reinstated and removed was worded (by other than myself) Begins something like "It's been reported...." I cannot get to that text from here. But it does not say Sciacca is the pioneer, started integrated treatment, etc. - Even though this is true. If we put back the text that was removed such claims would not be made. I do not care if the claim is made or not because this is taking far too long and it is discriminatory to Sciacca as the article stands now. If the tertiary and secondary articles and their content support denoting Sciacca as the pioneer, founder which she is we can go with that if not her work has just as much right to be discussed in this article as anyone else's does. Can you put this back? I am feeling physically drained from this drawn out process that was so quick to be extracted and so daunting and slow to be replaced.24.215.246.197 (talk) 22:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sciacca's work is detailed in this article. Her programs were visited by Gorman, clients were interviewed, treatment groups were attended and the report was published internationally.
 * Quote from TIME article: "Mental Health officials are beginning to bow to pressure from parents and medical professionals to create programs
 * American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 1996 (Peer reviewed Journal) Invited response "On Co-Occurring Addictive and Mental Disorders; A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development" (66) 3, July, 1996. Quote: "Dual Diagnosis treatment interventions and "integrated" programs that truly adapted to the needs of severely mentally ill chemical abusers (MICA) began in 1984 (Giglioti, 1986, Sciacca 1987a, Sciacca 1987b) in a New York State outpatient psychiatric facility.  In 1985 these integrated treatment programs were
 * 1998 -SAMHSA-CMHS Managed Care Initiative Co-Occurring Disorder Report: Co-Occurring Psychiatric and Substance Disorders in Managed Care Systems: Standards of Care, Practice Guidelines, Workforce Competencies and Training Curricula.
 * This was the first federal report on dual diagnosis - co-occurring disorders. Sciacca's work is included from various perspectives and references to the program models she initiated are included in the report. This report details specific initiatives and corresponding references.
 * Quote: *Minkoff discusses and references Sciacca's work. "Development of integrated or hybrid programs has been proposed as a solution to this dilemma (Sciacca, 1987),  Article referenced: Sciacca, K. "New Initiatives in the Treatment of the Chronic Patient with Alcohol / Substance use Problems" TIE Lines, 1987, 4 (3), 5-6.
 * TIE Lines 1987 - Ann Bauer, MD "Dual Diagnosis Patients The State of the Problem"  This article precedes the referenced and invited early


 * Part of my reply will be on your talk page, as this conversation is moving away from the discussion of Sciacca's merits for inclusion in the article. I will post it there shortly.  Firecatalta (talk) 00:08, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Regarding your sources: please note, again, the basic premise that to be included by name in this article, Sciacca must be significantly notable in the field of integrated treatments for dual diagnosis. This must be explicitly demonstrated by secondary or tertiary sources.  Here is my take on the sources you have provided.  If you would like to ask for a third-party opinion on this, I would be glad to show you how to request one, or to request one on your behalf.


 * The following numbers correspond to the order in which you presented the sources in your response.
 * 1. Giglioti - "Ms. Sciacca who has played a key role in developing the treatment model for these dually diagnosed clients"
 * This article comes the closest to describing Sciacca's role as a founder of the field. However, “a key role” is not the same as saying that Sciacca pioneered this field or was the first to create integrated treatments for dually diagnosed individuals.  Many people in addition to Sciacca played “a key role” in the development of integrated treatments for dual diagnosis.  This source does not demonstrate why Sciacca is more notable than any of the others who played key roles, or why she alone should be included by name in this article.


 * 2. Gorman (TIME Magazine)
 * This article describes Sciacca's work but does not state that Sciacca is a pioneer in the field or the founder of integrated treatment.


 * 3. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 1996 (Peer reviewed Journal) Invited response
 * This article was written by Sciacca. It cannot be used to support Sciacca's notability for a Wikipedia article.


 * 4. 1998 -SAMHSA-CMHS Managed Care Initiative Co-Occurring Disorder Report
 * Discussing and referencing Sciacca’s work is not the same as a statement saying that Sciacca is the founder of integrated treatment.


 * 5. Minkoff, K.
 * Discussing and referencing Sciacca’s work is not the same as a statement saying that Sciacca is the founder of integrated treatment.


 * 6. TIE Lines 1987 - Ann Bauer, MD
 * Discussing and referencing Sciacca’s work is not the same as a statement saying that Sciacca is the founder of integrated treatment. There has to be an explicit statement that Sciacca is the founder of integrated treatments for dual diagnosis.  Inferring from general information about Sciacca's work that she is the founder of this treatment is original research.


 * Unless Sciacca is the founder of the field of integrated treatment, Wikipedia policies for no undue weight indicate that she should not be included by name in this article. Doing so would emphasize her contributions over those of all others who contributed to the field.  Emphasizing her contributions over those of all other contributors requires a source to justify why she is being singled out for mention.  Singling her out is justified if she played an especially prominent role in the development of integrated treatments.  The current sources you provided describe her work but do not explicitly state that she played an unusually prominent role.  Inferring that she played an unusually prominent role is original research and is forbidden by Wikipedia policy, and we cannot use sources written by Sciacca to state that Sciacca played an unusually prominent role.


 * If you can find a source not written by Sciacca that explicitly states that she played an unusually prominent role in the field, then it is appropriate to mention her by name in this article. However, it is not my job to find those sources for you.  If you want the information included, Wikipedia policy is very clear that it is your responsibility to find the sources for the information that you want included.  For more information, please see the following: Burden of evidence.


 * Firecatalta (talk) 01:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello there, I was not aware that we were dealing with putting Sciacca's name in the text or not. I do not know who wrote the text that was removed with Sciacca's name in it. But we can replace it and leave her name out and include references like the others. There was not a body of literature prior to this. This was one of the first official examinations of this work by the New York State Commission on Quality of Care. It was personally reviewed, Sciacca, clients, staff interviewed, materials and processes examined and written up in fine detail. Treatment, integrated treatment, staff development, client outcome, staff development outcome, etc. etc. a thorough account. Their previous report which took one and one-half years reported no treatment available anywhere and the downward spiral of people who had co-occurring disorders into homelessness and incarceration. •	Giglioti, M. A. 1986 "Program Initiatives for Dually-Diagnosed at Harlem Valley Psychiatric Center. Dual Diagnosis -Co-occurring Disorders." New York State Commission on Quality of Care Publication, Issue 28, October 1986. •	This article details the Sciacca initiative from its inception in 1984 and describes this work. The Commission on Quality of care thoroughly reviewed this work at the actually program sites; interviewed Sciacca, NY State OMH administrators and more. •	Quotes from Giglioti article: "These three cases illustrate a treatment approach in the Harlem Valley Psychiatric Center and its community service areas which employ effective strategies for treating very difficult patients: patients who are mentally ill with concomitant alcohol and substance use problems. (integrated treatment in both in-patient hospitals and community service programs)..... "About two years ago (1984) Harlem Valley began to focus on this problem at a grass roots level."....."......Sciacca, Alcohol Substance Abuse Program Coordinator for Community Services..." Ms. Sciacca who has played a key role in developing the treatment model for these dually diagnosed clients remarked "There was no clear treatment model directly applicable to the dually diagnosed client population....We had to develop a treatment model that continually adapted to the needs of this special population and that featured a "non-confrontational" approach." "We had to face the issue of not merely patient denial of these problems," says Sciacca "but also staff denial - either that these problems existed or that they were possible to treat." NOTE: The article goes on to detail the treatment model and the staff development and training initiatives. Early client' outcome and key points of all elements of the integrated treatment and staff development model are detailed. All of these initiatives were integrated into existing programs of which there were numerous programs and program sites throughout this agency and the Office of Mental Health - all were integrated treatment - single site combined mental health and substance abuse treatment for dual diagnosis. Sciacca is named as the person to contact for further details and information. If you want more quotes from this article we can detail the entire treatment model, the integrated treatment and the staff development and program implementation across all services for which Sciacca is credited and the starting point is documented as "1984." •	Sciacca's work is detailed in this article. Her programs were visited by Gorman, clients were interviewed, treatment groups were attended and the report was published internationally. •	Quote from TIME article: "Mental Health officials are beginning to bow to pressure from parents and medical professionals to create programs tailored for drug-dependent, mentally ill..... "There's been a tremendous grass-roots campaign to convince the mental health bureaucracy of the problem" says ........Sciacca " a substance abuse coordinator at Harlem Valley Psychiatric Center" in New York. "We know what approaches are necessary to treat these people. We just need to use them." NOTE: Being a "substance abuse coordinator" in a psychiatric facility is integrated treatment. Sciacca's work was sited in the article but received more attention in the article through descriptions of the clients that were treated in her programs, the national statistics regarding co-occurring disorders and Sciacca's work as the SA Coordinator in the psychiatric care system which was developing and providing treatment and integrated program development. •	American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 1996 (Peer reviewed Journal) Invited response "On Co-Occurring Addictive and Mental Disorders; A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development" (66) 3, July, 1996. Occurring Disorders of Mental Illness and Addiction, Mental Illnesses - Evaluation, Treatments and Implications, Prof. Luciano LAbate (Ed.), ISBN: 978-953-307-645-4, InTech, Available from: http://www.intechopen.com/books/mental-illnesses-evaluation-treatments-and-implications/mixing-oil-andwater- developing-integrated-treatment-for-people-with-the-co-occurring-disorders-of-m a co-occurring disorder had been developed. This began to change when a New York State outpatient psychiatric facility in 1984 implemented various interventions from the addiction treatment community, typically interventions used in Treatment Communities (Sciacca, 1991). Sciacca, K. (1991). An integrated treatment approach for severely mentally ill individuals with substance disorders. New Directions for Mental Health Services, 50, 69-84. Sciacca, K., & Thompson, C. M. (1996). Program development and integrated treatment across systems for dual diagnosis: mental illness, drug addiction, and alcoholism March, 2005. combinations of these dual/multiple disorders. They are also found outside of these systems of care, often among the homeless, and within the criminal justice system. (Reference: Sciacca, K. "An Integrated Treatment Approach for Severely Mentally Ill Individuals with Substance Disorders" New Directions for Mental Health Services, Jossey Bass Publ. Summer 1991,#50). It is 11 PM. If none of these are any good. I will proceed to look for more publications that reference Sciacca's work and credit her for integrated treatment.24.215.246.197 (talk) 03:26, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The early reference to this "original" work includes the Gigliotti article. Which details everything about it including client outcome.
 * Next article -Gorman, C., 1987 "Bad Trips for the Doubly Troubled" TIME Magazine, August 3, 1987, Pg. 58.
 * Quote: "Dual Diagnosis treatment interventions and "integrated" programs that truly adapted to the needs of severely mentally ill chemical abusers (MICA) began in 1984 (Giglioti, 1986, Sciacca 1987a, Sciacca 1987b) in a New York State outpatient psychiatric facility. In 1985 these integrated treatment programs were implemented across multiple program sites (Sciacca, 1987b). Early articles (Gigliotti, Sciacca) outlined these processes and documented there starting dates"......"The MICA training site for program and staff development NY State-wide" 1987, 1991 was created (Sciacca was the director). NOTE: Article proceeds to detail the initiative of the MICA training site... "hundreds of treatment providers, across systems, etc.." Sciacca's "national" work is discussed. Another important model "inter-agency" program development across systems and services (Sciacca's work) is detailed.
 * New Reference: Sciacca's work is referenced in the report to Congress, 2002.
 * New Reference: SAMHSA -CSAT Treatment Improvement Protocol #42 Substance Abuse Treatment for persons with co-occurring disorders.  In Introduction section of book - Historic perspective "Evolving field of co-occurring disorders treatment reference (Sciacca1991) An integrated treatment approach for severely mentally ill individuals with substance disorders. New Directions for Mental Health Services, 50, 69-84
 * New Reference: :  Andrew L. Cherry (2012). Mixing Oil and Water: Developing Integrated Treatment for People with the Co-
 * Quote: in the early 1980s, little in the way of specific programming for people with
 * Quote: The circumstances that created the pressure for these changes involved a constant drumbeat
 * New Reference: Mental Illness and Substance Abuse in Children and Adults of DuPage County
 * Quote: "Persons are found across the mental health and substance abuse systems who have various
 * Hi there,


 * Thank you for your hard work on this, and you are quite right that it is getting late and is probably time to catch some shuteye. :-) I've started a history section for the article, and let's continue this conversation tomorrow to figure out how best to include this information in that section.  It sounds like we were on different pages about what we thought this discussion was about, but I think we're on the same page now.  I'm optimistic that things will be more productive from here on out.


 * Best, Firecatalta (talk) 03:31, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi again,


 * I've updated the history section with those components of the original Sciacca text that can be justified by the current sources available per this talk page. As we have previously discussed, the current sources we have do not warrant specific mention of Sciacca or the details of her specific programs in the article. As discussed, this is because the secondary sources discuss the programs but do not explicitly state that they are "the first" or the founding programs of integrated treatment.  The sources we have that do discuss Sciacca's programs as being the first/founding programs are written by Sciacca.  Therefore to avoid giving undue weight to Sciacca's work by singling it out for discussion in the article, without secondary or tertiary sources justifying why it is appropriate to do so, I have used the general historical facts from the original text.  The new text can be found by clicking here.  The original text is re-posted below, along with the sources that accompanied it.


 * Best,
 * Firecatalta (talk) 01:24, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello, I just got to see the new text you wrote and the references. I would like to do more work on the text but I am mostly concerned about the referencing. It seems that in an effort to avoid undo weight to Sciacca you have eliminated all of her work and referenced others who are not the innovators of dual diagnosis treatment or integrated treatment, their work came along much later. The one reference you did provide has a live link the other live links from the others that are included: 41. Sciacca, K. 1996 "On Co-occurring Addictive and Mental Disorders: A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development" American Journal of Orhtopsychiatry (66) 3, July 1996. http://www.scribd.com/doc/16684317/On-Cooccurring-Addictive-Mental-Disorders-a-Brief-History-Kathleen-Sciacca

It will not be giving undo weight to reference Sciacca's work that details the treatment approach, details integrated treatment, and details program implementation prior to any other published works, i.e., the first published works on dual diagnosis treatment (non-confrontation, psycho-education and other elements of Sciacca's model) and integrated treatment, cross-systems treatment, etc. Here is a list of references that define the initial approach and integrated care that was deemed "best practices" by SAMHSA. There are active links for most of these: (I have (*) starred the ones I think are pertinent to the history and the text. Sciacca, K. 1987. "New Initiatives in the Treatment of the Chronic Patient with Alcohol /Substance Use Problems" TIE-Lines, Published by the Information Exchange on Young Adult Chronic Patients, Bert Pepper, M.D., Executive Director Vol. 1V, No. 3, July 1987. Sciacca, K., 1990-2010. "MIDAA SERVICE MANUAL: A Step by Step Guide to Program Implementation and Comprehensive Services for Dual/Multiple Disorders. Pub. Sciacca Comprehensive Service Development for MIDAA, NYC, revised 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002. Sciacca, K., 1995 Video: "Integrated Treatment for MIDAA: The Alaska Example." Producer, Sciacca Comprehensive Service Development for MIDAA, New York, N. Y. 1995. Included in the Library of Congress. This is included: Sciacca, K., July-1996. "On Co-occurring Addictive and Mental Disorders: A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development." Invited Response, American Journal of Orthopsychiatry (66) 3, July 1996. Sciacca, K. 1997. "Removing Barriers: Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Motivational Interviewing" Professional Counselor, Volume 12, No.1, February 1997, pp. 41-46. Sciacca, K. 1997, “Cross-Training Yields Continuity in Dual-Diagnosis Programs.” Mental Health Weekly, Vol. 7, No. 21, Page 6. Manisses Pub. Providence, RI. Sciacca, K. 1998, “Tennessee Initiates State-wide Dual Diagnosis Program Development.” Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Weekly, Vol. 10, No. 7, Page 5. Manisses Pub. Providence, RI. Sciacca, K. 1999, “D.C. Reports Progress with Dual Diagnosis Integration Initiative.” Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Weekly, Vol. 11, No. 41, Page 5. Manisses Pub. Providence, RI. Sciacca, K. 2001 “Theme-Centered Interactional (TCI) Group Leading and the Workshop Institute for Living-Learning W.I.L.L., An Overview.”  MINT Bulletin, Vol. 8, No.2 Sciacca, K., 2001, “Kentucky Dual Diagnosis Residence Yields Remarkable Outcome.” Mental Health Weekly, Vol. 11, No. 7, Page 5. Manisses Pub. Providence, RI. Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Weekly, 2003, “GA seeks statewide implementation of dual-diagnosis strategy” Vol. 15, No. 17, Pgs. 1/6/7. April 28, 2003, Manisses, Inc. Providence, RI. Sciacca, K. 2007 Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Motivational Interviewing for Co-occurring Disorders.” National Council Magazine, 2007, Volume 2. pgs. 22-23. Sciacca. K, 2008 “The Impact of Motivational Interviewing in the Field of Dual/Multiple Disorders of Co-occurring Mental Illness, Drug Addiction and Alcoholism.” MINT Bulletin, Vol.14, No.2. Co-occurring Mental Illness and Substance Disorders in Various Combinations.” The Praeger International Collection on Addictions, Editor, Angela Brown-Miller, Vol. 3, Chapter 9, Pgs. 161-188, Praeger, Westport, CT. London. Sciacca, K, 2009 “Motivational Interviewing Glossary & Fact Sheet” Copyright 2009, Kathleen Sciacca, NYC. Sciacca, K, 2009, “Dual Diagnosis Fact Sheet” Copyright, Kathleen Sciacca Collective works, 2009, NYC. Sciacca K. 2012. “Integrating three interventions for dual-diagnosis patients” Alcoholism & Drug Abuse Weekly, February 6, 2012, Wiley Periodicals, Inc. Sciacca K. 2012. “A language for integrated care” Behavioral HealthCare Magazine, September 10, 2012 and November/December 2012 issue. http://www.behavioral.net/print/article/language-integrated-care Some full text articles, chapters, documents available at: http://motivationalinterviewingtraining.com (scroll down to links to articles) and at Scribd: http://www.scribd.com/Kathleen_Sciacca/documents Some additional full text articles available at Dual Diagnosis Website: http://users.erols.com/ksciacca/#literature
 * Sciacca, K., 1991. "An Integrated Treatment Approach for Severely Mentally Ill Individuals with Substance Disorders" New Directions for Mental Health Services, Dual Diagnosis of Major Mental Illness and Substance Disorders, Eds.,  Minkoff, K  and Drake, R.,  Jossey-Bass, publishers, summer 1991, #50.
 * Sciacca, K., Hatfield, A.B., 1995. "The Family and the Dually Diagnosed Patient" Double Jeopardy, Eds. Lehman, A.F., and Dixon, L.B., Harwood Academic Publishers, 1995, Chapter 12, pp.193-209.
 * Sciacca, K., and Thompson, C. M.,1996. "Program Development and Integrated Treatment Across Systems for Dual Diagnosis: Mental Illness, Drug Addiction and Alcoholism, MIDAA," The Journal of Mental Health Admin. Vol.23, No.3. Summer 1996, pp.288-297.
 * Sciacca, K. 1997. "Peer Support for People Challenged by Dual Diagnosis: Helpful People In  Touch," Consumers as Providers  in Psychosocial Rehabilitation, Eds. Mowbray, C.T., Moxley, D.P., Jasper, C.A., Howell, L.L., IAPSRS publisher, 1997. Chapter  6, pp. 82.
 * Sciacca, K. 1998, "Curriculum for MICAA and CAMI Direct Care Providers: Mental Illness, Drug Addiction and Alcoholism MIDAA(R): Training, Cross-Training and Program Development" SAMHSA-CMHS Managed Care Initiative Co-Occurring Disorder Report: Co-Occurring Psychiatric and Substance Disorders in Managed Care Systems: Standards of Care, Practice Guidelines, Workforce Competencies and Training Curricula.
 * Sciacca, K, 2009 “Best Practices for Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development:
 * Sciacca K. 2011. “Integrated Group Treatment for People Experiencing Mental Health –Substance Use Problems” Intervention in Mental Health-Substance Use, Editor, David B. Cooper, Chapter 9, Pgs. 114-127, Radcliffe Publishing, London, New York.

I will review the text again and get back to you with any suggestions. In the meantime I hope you will include some of these pertinent references. As it stands now there is undo weight given to others. Thank you.24.215.246.197 (talk) 17:01, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi there,
 * Thanks for your reply. I wanted to give you a quick heads up that I will be away from wikipedia for the coming week to take care of some pressing out-of-wiki matters; I know it's been frustrating for you in the past when the conversations go slowly (as it would be frustrating for anyone!), and I'm sorry I can't give you a full reply sooner.
 * All the best,
 * Firecatalta (talk) 17:51, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello, This first request is to Firecatalta and anyone else who can help to fix reference #41 - I cannot access it to edit, there is no "edit source". It needs to be brought up to consistency with other references and include the active link: http://www.scribd.com/doc/16684317/On-Cooccurring-Addictive-Mental-Disorders-a-Brief-History-Kathleen-Sciacca This is how it was referenced with the old text and for some reason it has been replaced without the link.' HELP!!! Thank you. TO FIRECATALTA - Please note regarding the history you wrote (thank you)  but there was no "traditional treatment" for co-occurring disorders, parallel as you described it before Sciacca's first "integrated treatment"  there was no co-occurring treatment at all. Mental health programs and providers did not diagnose or treat substance abuse and substance abuse programs did not diagnose or treat mental illness. In either system co-occurrring disorders was a reason not to accept clients into treatment or to terminate them. The first interventions were "integrated treatment"   Parallel treatment emerged later as an alternative for those who did not want to extend their services to include integrated treatment. It has always been deemed inferior to integrated treatment. On another note there a numerous publications and videos that reference and discuss Sciacca's work. I began reading through them to find the wording you say WIKIPedia requires - she was the pioneer, she started this, etc. It will take a long time to get through the literature and videos but I intend to persevere. I agree with your earlier posts about women being left out. Sciacca is not a psychiatrist and following her laborious innovations the field became dominated by male psychiatrists, they have certainly made contributions, but along the way they systematically omitted Sciacca from the literature. But her work has carried on through the present and her contribution to effectuating evidence-based, humane, effective treatment and programs and trained providers remains foremost. I have taken a look at reference #40 that continually follows "integrated treatment" in the text, there are about 80 references in that piece, but there is no reference section. This paper that claims to be comprehensive, with about ten authors, a number who know Sciacca's work should be held accountable if her work is not referenced in a number of pertinent sections. I am going to read all of the Wikipedia rules to make certain that Sciacca's work is represented fairly so this does not happen here. Who would have thought that a whimsicle removal of text that was restored by the same person, then removed by another who is unfamiliar with this field, will now become my life's work24.215.246.197 (talk) 20:45, 25 July 2013 (UTC) Hello, I repaired the reference and added the link. I did not know the references are imbedded in the text. I mentioned in a previous message that there was no "traditional treatment" prior to the advent of the first integrated treatment in 1984. I am going to work on documenting that so that the history may be more accurate. I will be looking at the New York State Commission on Quality of Care report (1986-1987?) where I know they reported zero services; I will also check Talbott's work - he conducted the first national survey's on prevalence and his early work may report on the state of the provision of services for dual disorders and I'll check on other early literature in this area. I will let you know what I find and we may be able to open the history section without referencing parallel treatment as traditional and preceding integrated treatment of which I am certain neither is true.24.215.246.197 (talk) 23:32, 28 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Sciacca reported a key early integrated treatment approach which began in 1984 in New York state. This began in an outpatient mental health clinic and expanded to a state-wide initiative. This initiative crossed systems to include substance abuse programs, homeless services, and criminal justice services.  It included inpatient, outpatient and residential treatment. This initiative addressed screening, assessment, outcome measures and treatment.  This treatment approach, along with its training curriculum and program implementation model, was also adapted across systems in various states including Michigan.  In 1993, evidence based interventions such as motivational interviewing, the stages of change and cognitive behavioral therapy were integrated into the dual diagnosis treatment model and comprise the treatment approach and integrated care model that exists today


 * 1. Sciacca, K. 1996 "On Co-occurring Addictive and Mental Disorders: A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development" American Journal of Orhtopsychiatry (66) 3, July 1996.
 * http://www.scribd.com/doc/16684317/On-Cooccurring-Addictive-Mental-Disorders-a-Brief-History-Kathleen-Sciacca
 * 2. Sciacca, K., Thompson, C.M., 1996 "Program Development and Integrated Treatment Across Systems for Dual Diagnosis: Mental Illness, Drug Addiction and Alcoholism, MIDAA" The Journal of Mental Health Administration, Vol. 23, No.3, Summer 1996, 288-297.
 * http://www.scribd.com/doc/17223077/Program-Development-and-Integrated-Treatment-Across-Systems-for-Dual-Diagnosis-Kathleen-Sciacca
 * 3. Sciacca, K. 2009 "Best Practices for Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development: Co-Occurring Mental Illness and Substance Disorders in Various Combinations" The Praeger International Collections on Addictions, Editor, Angela Brown-Miller, Vol.3, Chapt.9, Pgs. 161-188, Praeger Westport, CT. London,
 * http://www.scribd.com/doc/21801032/BestPracticesForDualDiagnosisTreatment-ProgramDevelopment-Co-occurring-Mental-Illness-Substance-Disorders-Kathleen-Sciacca-2009

Sciacca removed again
' Hi all! I've re-removed the text below. The current sources are primary, which is fantastic once we have already established Sciacca's notability by way of secondary or tertiary sources, but until then, we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article. Does anyone have access to such sources? If so, please reply with the appropriate reliable, secondary or tertiary (not written by Scaccia) sources to back up Scaccia's inclusion in this article. Thanks! Firecatalta (talk) 00:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Sciacca reported a key early integrated treatment approach which began in 1984 in New York state. This began in an outpatient mental health clinic and expanded to a state-wide initiative. This initiative crossed systems to include substance abuse programs, homeless services, and criminal justice services. It included inpatient, outpatient and residential treatment. This initiative addressed screening, assessment, outcome measures and treatment. This treatment approach, along with its training curriculum and program implementation model, was also adapted across systems in various states including Michigan. In 1993, evidence based interventions such as motivational interviewing, the stages of change and cognitive behavioral therapy were integrated into the dual diagnosis treatment model and comprise the treatment approach and integrated care model that exists today

1. Sciacca, K. 1996 "On Co-occurring Addictive and Mental Disorders: A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development" American Journal of Orhtopsychiatry (66) 3, July 1996. http://www.scribd.com/doc/16684317/On-Cooccurring-Addictive-Mental-Disorders-a-Brief-History-Kathleen-Sciacca 2. Sciacca, K., Thompson, C.M., 1996 "Program Development and Integrated Treatment Across Systems for Dual Diagnosis: Mental Illness, Drug Addiction and Alcoholism, MIDAA" The Journal of Mental Health Administration, Vol. 23, No.3, Summer 1996, 288-297. http://www.scribd.com/doc/17223077/Program-Development-and-Integrated-Treatment-Across-Systems-for-Dual-Diagnosis-Kathleen-Sciacca 3. Sciacca, K. 2009 "Best Practices for Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development: Co-Occurring Mental Illness and Substance Disorders in Various Combinations" The Praeger International Collections on Addictions, Editor, Angela Brown-Miller, Vol.3, Chapt.9, Pgs. 161-188, Praeger Westport, CT. London, http://www.scribd.com/doc/21801032/BestPracticesForDualDiagnosisTreatment-ProgramDevelopment-Co-occurring-Mental-Illness-Substance-Disorders-Kathleen-Sciacca-2009 '' 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Merge alternatively named pages for the same concept
Apart from "dual diagnosis" and "co-occurring disorders" there is at least another name "dual disorders pathology", with its own Wikipedia page.

I suggest that "dual disorders pathology" page (which is also marked as an orphan) should be merged with this "dual diagnosis" page.

---

The following comment is not mine and does not address the same topic I started. Cesarsalgado (talk) 08:40, 28 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm in favor of merging. The user who made the comment below is still getting the hang of formatting; I'm going to go ahead and make a new thread for them.  Firecatalta (talk) 20:23, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

---

---

Request for comment
Hello, is anybody there? HELP! I need and administrator.. Did I read somewhere that they exist? I will be punished further if I bother one. It seems that there is no one interested in this page except one editor who took over for another editor who got too tired to deal with this article after she deleted two major sections. Unfortunately, the area they removed, replaced, removed, rewrote, deleted references (attended to) is of serious concern to me and it is taking many, many days and many, many hours, and neglect of other work to gather the info to be faced with new rules in the face of compliance; the area of text that is of concern and the references get pushed further and further off the page into oblivion. One reference is now being permitted by the ruling editor - that is #41. Although this reference appeared with the previous text that was removed, restored and removed again, with a live link as do the other references for this article, at this time it is formatted differently from the other references and does not have a link to the article. I am trying to fix this. I had explained to the editor in chief that I have no skills in this area. I was told to click on "edit source" which does not exist in my editing field anywhere on the article. Now it seems that the entire "references" area is blocked. I cannot access it to edit #41 and the editor in chief has signed off as busy with other things until? If I happen to be wrong - and we have not lost access to the reference section can someone please edit reference #41 and ad the link as it was once before: Sciacca, K. 1996 "On Co-occurring Addictive and Mental Disorders: A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development" American Journal of Orhtopsychiatry (66) 3, July 1996.
 * http://www.scribd.com/doc/16684317/On-Cooccurring-Addictive-Mental-Disorders-a-Brief-History-Kathleen-Sciacca

Thank you so much. The new history text needs revisions, I will begin working on this. I am still searching the literature for references to Sciacca's work that specifically say she is responsible for the initial development of treatment, integrated treatment, program implementation, clinical materials, training curricula, etc. in 1984 and is a pioneer and forerunner in this field. If anyone knows of such a reference please let me know. In the meantime there are numerous articles, manuals, reports, etc. I will need to read to see if they are worded specifically this way. I belong to a TED: Ideas worth spreading discussion group. Someone brought the topic of the validity of formulating articles at Wikipedia under scrutiny. He specifically addressed this editing process where in an effort to remain polite I am conferring and complying with someone who does not seem to have knowledge about this topic. Serious concerns are being raised about the validity of Wikipedia articles as a result of this process. However, since this article is here in the public domain; and even though it is time consuming and frustrating; I intend to make certain that known facts in this field are not fudged over or eliminated.24.215.246.197 (talk) 01:46, 26 July 2013 (UTC) has serious questions about the validity of the process of editing, hit and miss attention, and in the end

Hello, I found the embedded references and corrected reference #41. To whomever is paying attention. 24.215.246.197 (talk) 02:15, 26 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi there. As soon as anyone -- you, me, or any other editor -- finds a reliable source not written by Sciacca stating that her program was the first or was otherwise more noteworthy than the other initiatives during that time period, then we can discuss her in the section.  As we have discussed previously, until that happens, it would go against Wikipedia's policies of no original research and no undue weight to discuss her specific work in this article.  As previously discussed, if you do not like Wikipedia's policies, there are many other ways for you to write about Sciacca, such as writing in a blog, an opinion piece for a newspaper, or a book.  However, if you would like to continue editing Wikipedia, then please remember that this community has rules and that all editors have to follow them.


 * Earlier in this process I posted a question on your talk page about whether you have a personal connection to Sciacca or her work. You have indicated that the information you are trying to insert into this article is "of serious concern to [you]," and in previous comments, you have written highly specific details about Sciacca and her work that a third party would probably not know.  Please have a look at the comment I wrote on your talk page (click here) and consider whether you might have a conflict of interest with this subject.


 * Best,
 * Firecatalta (talk) 20:43, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 21:40, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 one external links on Dual diagnosis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added tag to http://store.samhsa.gov/shin/content/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060819220505/http://ndarc.med.unsw.edu.au/NDARCWeb.nsf/resources/TR_18/$file/TR.121.PDF to http://ndarc.med.unsw.edu.au/NDARCWeb.nsf/resources/TR_18/$file/TR.121.PDF
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100922115831/http://www.nhsconfed.org:80/Publications/Documents/MHN_factsheet_August_2009_FINAL_2.pdf to http://www.nhsconfed.org/Publications/Documents/MHN_factsheet_August_2009_FINAL_2.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 07:37, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

== RESPONSE TO FIRECATALTA - i have not made any changes to any part of the text on the dual diagnosis page. I am trying to communicate with editor "FIRECATALTA". I CLICKED ON YOUR NAME ( A LIVE LINK) AND I DO NOT SEE ANY WAY TO SEND YOU A MESSAGE at your pa ==

RESPONSE TO FIRECATALTA - i have not made any changes to any part of the text on the dual diagnosis page. I am trying to communicate with editor "FIRECATALTA". I CLICKED ON YOUR NAME ( A LIVE LINK) AND I DO NOT SEE ANY WAY TO SEND YOU A MESSAGE at your page. I am used to not knowing what to do on wikipedia. I hope you will receive and provide a timely reply to this new message May 23, 2017. WE HAVE HAD SOME INTRICATE DISCUSSIONS REGARDING SCIACCA'S CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE FIELD OF DUAL DIAGNOSIS. THE SENTENCE IN THE "HISTORY" SECTION REFERENCES VERY LITTLE OF THAT CONTRIBUTION AND DOES NOT CLARIFY the breadth and scope of the initial work and the evolution stemming from that initial work. The notice of Sciacca SEEMs EXTREMELY MARGINALIZED FOR SOMEONE WHO WAS THE INNOVATOR OF ANY TREATMENT WHATSOEVER FOR THE TREATMENT OF A WORLDWIDE NEGLECTED POPULATION OF PEOPLE WHO HAD SERIOUS ILLNESSES AND WERE TREATED AS CRIMINALS in many cases. IN ADDITION THE KEY LINE IN the history section ...THE MID 1980's etc., etc. references one Sciacca publication and a Drake, et. al. publication - Drake, et. al. had done nothing in regards to dual diagnosis in the mid 1980's, they were not even on the scene and should not be referenced there in the same sentence which implies they made contributions during the time of inception of treatment in 1984 for the dually diagnosed which they did not. In addition I have searched out other sources of articles/ videos (one in the library of congress) primary, secondary, tertiary, etc. These denote this "first" original, pioneering work where the ground work was performed and demonstrated and the difficult task of creating enthusiasm for mental health workers to treat substance abuse and substance abuse programs to acknowledge and address mental health - this yielded program development across systems and services and statewide initiatives where nothing had been done before and a great deal of neglect and frustration ensued. I look forward to hearing from you to review the exchanges we have had and the additional materials I have acquired. I am hopeful that a just result will ensue here. I am very uncomfortable to leave this as it is. 69.86.190.126 (talk) 04:59, 23 May 2017 (UTC)    (69.86.190.126 (talk) 04:59, 23 May 2017 (UTC)). 69.86.190.126 (talk) 04:59, 23 May 2017 (UTC) (talk) (69.86.190.126 (talk) 04:59, 23 May 2017 (UTC)) May 23, 2017 69.86.190.126 (talk) 04:59, 23 May 2017 (UTC)