Talk:Dysgraphia

A Plea to Teachers
I hope that school teachers will read this page. Because from the many comments here it is very clear that you are failing to help us in many ways. We don't need your criticism, and we don't need to be humiliated for our lack of ability, we just need for you to be a little bit less ignorant and a lot more compassionate. The problem is real and coercing us won't make it go away. 71.35.162.190 (talk) 00:07, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I was humiliated for this when I was only 6-7 years old! Thank you, computer! Now I'm 22, and teachers STILL do it. They think I'm careless g, and yet I can draw and paint. Oh yeah. This was fun to grow up with undiagnosed... IQ? 127, reportcards? Summer school everysingleyear, baby... 74.166.44.177 (talk) 15:07, 14 August 2010 (UTC)Aidget


 * 100% Asturnut (talk) 02:45, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

It is easier when the teachers learn that it doesn't effect your intelligence. Most of my teachers stopped reading my written work after I aced their first three tests. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.179.178.64 (talk) 03:52, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, teachers seem to totally ignore this disability, while they are able to find every dys* for asocial and criminal students with ease. One ends up spending hours on calligraphy lessons, which improve nothing and just take your life away. Been there, done that... Also there is great deal of discrimination when it comes to judging your work. I've been in several schools, and i've met same discrimination among various teachers. symptoms - your perfectly fine work, which can score pretty high when printed out even with dot matrix printer and with smallest font - can be rejected on firth sight, with large red note HANDWRITING! or 'I WILL NOT READ THAT!' even if it took you few hours to patiently 'cleanly' re-write it...

Personally i've work-around this by just using computer or typewriter. Some schools, teachers and exams do not accept that though, and one has to do special tricks to 'be read' - i.e. writing your work quickly in your regular handwriting, then re-write it 'clean' using at least capital letters, or carefully writing each letter, pausing in-between each of them. this is tiresome, and often gives you extra time penalty, but then one has to somehow accept the fate disability of this kind 'makes you less valuable for industry' and it's your duty to train methods of overcoming it. Worst exams are those which do not accept any kinds of re-writing, i.e. one has to race with others with time and no 'working copy' is accepted - first sheet which is written is took away. those usually happen on orthographic tests in Poland, so called 'dyktando'.

I have no references which could aid in improving article in this field, but i think this part is worth extending, i.e. at least with short note about fact that education system is often unwilling to recognize this disability and offers ineffective methods of coping with it / and or quoting references coming from systems which deal with such disabilities better.

Dysgraphics also get trouble in banks and other systems which require confirmation by signature, as their signature is not 'stable' - at least that is in my case. Hopefully my bank seems to somehow recognize the problem and besides i had to place several signature samples out of which they somehow extracted the 'valid' confirmation sections, i had no extra trouble. I guess there are some kind of procedures for such cases which could be quoted in the article and act as reference. 83.18.229.190 (talk) 21:20, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * One could technically put a short paragraph in the article about that, but expect it to be removed quickly if there is no reference to back it up. Maybe try and find a study or a news article pointing the system's lack of support for dysgraphia. I'll do that now. If I can't find anything, I won't add it to the article. Anyone is welcome to, though, but as I say, expect it to be removed at any time. --BurritoBazooka (talk) 22:46, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't/can't do cursive writing. Interestingly enough, the state of Washington has recently decided that cursive writing is no longer important enough to teach, instead they are going to use the class time that would have been spent learning cursive writing, on learning typing and computer skills. Hurrah! I am sure the decision is very controversial, and the problem of lack of cursive "signatures" is an interesting question, but over-all this certainly helps people with dysgraphia and spelling problems (the *immediate* feedback of the red underline helped me immensely in overcoming my inability to spell). It's also a very interesting cultural shift every bit as profound as when people switched from horse riding lessons to car driving lessons. Actually in the case of the switch away from horses we suffered a loss of mobility in that people aren't allowed to drive until age 16 (in most states) but children routinely learned how to ride a horse from about age 4. On the other hand, 20 miles by horse is a substantial journey, but by car it is trivial, also bicycles have helped to fill the mobility gap. I was one of the first people in my school to own a pocket electronic calculator; teachers would not allow me to use it on tests because "what would you (I) do if the batteries failed?" that was the reason given, but now the public school issues laptops to children starting in about the 3rd or 4th grade... I was also in the last class (at my school) that was taught how to use a slide rule, my the times how they have changed. 67.40.212.131 (talk) 09:56, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I was educated ('in the system') in South Africa (total of 5 or 6 years when I was little) and Britain (total of 9 years). I never received any stigma that my bad handwriting meant lowered intelligence. I do know, however, that the American system is substantially different, and in many states, completely flawed. I also didn't know that Dysgraphia was actually a classified thing, and I didn't know that there were many others out there who struggle with handwriting as I do. I gave up trying to perfect my handwriting when I was around 15. I'm 19 now. I've been shouted at so many times for it in school that I just stopped caring. If a teacher started getting irked at my handwriting, I stopped attending their classes (after age 16 there was only one who did this). My mother is also a teacher, she continued the shouting... :/ Every time I deleted some written text and wrote next to it, she completely hated that. I learned to ignore that too. Typing is now my primary mode of written communication, and I do it well. I think more awareness needs to be raised for dysgraphia. I was never even tested for it. I plan on getting stamps for filling paper forms out in the future, with my personal information printed on them. Thank you Internet and Wikipedia, for showing me that I have a problem that can be classified. --BurritoBazooka (talk) 22:41, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Dysgraphia has nothing to do with IQ, mine is considerably north of 130. But I am totally unable to do handwriting, from the very first time that I picked up a pencil in First Grade I knew that I was in trouble. Thankfully I now have a laptop and have become a very fast typist. I could not function without the laptop, handwriting is simply impossible for me. I must think may way through the drawing of each character, it is very slow, and soon my hand and arm cramps and it becomes quite painful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.47.4.32 (talk) 05:00, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Homophones
I was diagnosed with Dysgraphia many years ago and one thing that I notice quite often that is not discussed in this article is the lack of distinction between homophones, is there anything we can say about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.100.87.22 (talk) 16:07, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Surely the issue with homophones is more a 'dyslexia' spectrum disorder? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grendelous (talk • contribs) 08:59, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I was able to find some articles and books linking the two on Google Scholar. https://books.google.com/books?id=UEWVqdNFL4cC&pg=PA912&lpg=PA912&dq=homophones+and+dysgraphia&source=bl&ots=1NxgxjoqWl&sig=1lPYB3M6CaFRqf4roMciLkySDns&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj659zmhf3KAhXCOCYKHSfhBzkQ6AEILjAD#v=onepage&q=homophones%20and%20dysgraphia&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigZ7099 (talk • contribs) 20:14, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Discussion
I have seen refrinces to "strange cramps" but nothing much more, i have not really seen dysgraphia in many books anyways! And EVERY dysgraphic i have talked to, i mean had a long talk with has said... yeah it does hurt, but i thought it was just hand cramps. then i ask them, do other cramps feel like that? and they say no. Besides information about dysgraphia is offten just wrong, why shouldn't a bunch of people WITH it oppions count more then "exsperts" who have not done much resurch about it asumptions!

So that is what i think and if you don't like it you will hurt my feelings?

oh and it's REALLY cool to hear from some one who has a PHD and dysgraphia by the way! Actuly it's good to hear from ALL of you!!! To see that your out there!

-lee--lee84w

I have the pain symptom too though I guess I am quite a mild case. I have always hated handwriting, because it always turned out very bad-looking and illegible. Mind that I have a PhD degree (thanks to the keyboards! ;-)) --MirandaSpider 13:08, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I got it, so I should know what it is :P Pellaken 02:05, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have an unusually severe[ case, with no other learning disabilities or neurological disorders. :P--Verxumus 02:13, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I likewise have it David Formosa is dysgraphic please excuse spelling errors 07:25, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm just wondering if there are any references for the pain while writing thing. I'm dysgraphic as well and experience that, but I've never actually heard about it being a symptom before. There should be some sort of reference for it other than personal experience. --Matteh (talk) 08:15, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I am dysgraphic, and I can provide another testimony to the pain symptom. - Pyrosim 23:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I can't stop holding pencils very tightly, which I think is what causes the pain. I sometimes flip or skip words and letters if I don't concentrate completely. I actually read some people think in words, but for me it takes energy to translate all that stuff of the mind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.223.118.212 (talk) 14:43, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I am Dysgraphic and I have significant pain while writing. It seems to be related to the fact that (unless I concentrate on relaxing) I slowly tense up on my pencil while writing. This results in muscle pain.

Also, I did not see any mention of the fact the Dysgraphia runs in families DysgraphicProgrammer 21:00, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I too am dysgraphic, and I too thought the pain was normal.. but it doesnt feel like muscle pain; I dont really know how to describe it... but its not an ache, its not a sting, and its not what most would define as a "pain". We caught it early, so the motor problems arent as bad, but I have this really wierd shaking when I'm trying to hold something like a screwdriver for a long ammount of time. Writing is extremely hard, but I do not have the spelling errors of others who have been diagnosed with this problem. I am a freshman in highschool, and I have known I have had dysgraphia since 4th grade, although I only knew that the pain was different since I wikipedia'd it this past week

nor do I, that definately needs to be added in, I have been diagnosised dysgraphic sincee Iwas 8 and I'm amazed at this page, I never knew it was abnormal to have the pain while writing. I always thought everyone did. anyways, what about the non-writing related symptoms such as the organizational problems?

I am dysgraphic too! A few people in my family have dysgraphia but other then that I have encountered few other dysgraphics. I am so glade that there are so many people that say that there dysgraphia, not because I am happy that your dysgraphia it's just that I make me feel less alone. I feel the pain too, it's not exactly muscle pain though, it doesn’t feel like every other muscle pain I have ever had, it's different! - Elysiacw

I'm also dysgrapic, and I've noticed the minor pain while writing. I also always thought it was normal, and that I'd just been writing for too long. I must have a minor case of the pain itself, since it's usually a minor annoyance (alibet a very effective, distracting one) and only occurs if I've been writing a lot of material at once or for an extended period of time.--Vince Skrapits 22:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I get the cramps too. Until recently, I thought it was just normal strain. Umlautbob 16:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Either this aritcle is wrong, or I had dysgraphia when I was six, but grew out of it as I grew older. I remember getting hand pains that I thought were normal and from holding the pencil too tight and general motor dysgraphia, but it was fairly mild and bad handwriting runs in my family anyway; with the exception of one of my siblings, who has always had an extremely odd writing grip. Even though I have very good handwriting now, I still prefer typing because it's faster. NOTE: I also have extremely mild NVLD and so do some other dysgraphics in my family so I think the two sets of symptoms might be related. (209.68.148.253 15:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC))

yeah I am dysgraphic too, The pain while writing is annoying as hell, thankfully I can type almost everything except for notes, and I just don't do the notes because of the pain, and how it is hardly legible at the end. My spelling is also so bad that I frequently baffle spell-check (primarily the Microsoft word one), which forces me to just use a shorter simpler words, which hurts on essay grades.can anyone just in this paragraph I had to get rid of the words "irritateing" with "annoying", "Forunately" with "thankfully", and a bunch more. the only one I found is copy-pasting the words I cant spell into Google, and using it's built in spell check which works so much better, or just guessing 20 times until it is close enough. I even have to edit most my instant-messages in order to make them understandable. Does anyone know of some better solution to this?, like a better spell-check?

I'm really, really glad I found this article a year or two ago, because I'd always known that it wasn't normal for my arm to hurt when I was writing, but never attributed it to dysgraphia, and I was getting really, really frightened that I was developing carpal tunnel syndrome. Now I'm just really glad that there's nothing wrong with my but my laughably poor attempts to write anything acceptable. Then again, if I had CTS instead of dysgraphia, I would have actually been able to pass 6th grade science, in which my teacher had an "if I can't read it, I can't grade it" policy, but gave us a very strict time limit and required we write both in cursive and in pen. Obviously, it was hell for a dysgraphic.--147.9.239.140 (talk) 19:15, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Most people have heard of dyslexia, but very few have heard of dysgraphia and are often confused when I try to tell them that is what I have, so I often gloss over it and just say I'm dyslexic but it only affects my writing. This Wikipedia article is on target and does a very good job of explaining it. One of the things that caused me to drop out of college was being required to hand write in a lab notebook. I'm very good at composition, but the mechanics of writing are beyond me (also had difficulty learning how to hold a fork and spoon), can't spell words without difficulty. I frequently reverse the letters. I was never able to do cursive writing it was just too exhausting and slow, am able to print but not very legible. keyboards and speech recognition have really saved the day for me, even though I am of above average intelligence, I could not function without being able to type and without having a spelling checker to tell me when I got the letters reversed yet again... which happened about 5 times when typing this paragraph despite being careful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.160.103.40 (talk) 02:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I found out a few years ago that as I kid I was diagnosed with dysgraphia. I always thought I just had extraordinarily bad handwriting. I had pain in my palms when writing a lot or very fast but I thought it was just because I held the pen so tightly. Also in 90% cases I write only in UPPERCASE as I find that much easier and when I have to write "normal" I find myself having to concentrate very hard as not to screw up. Its only after I read this article that I found out what dysgraphia actually is and it made so many things make sense. In school I often had problems because of my handwriting. I found that I either wrote too slow and didn't manage to write everything down, or I wrote fast and horrible. Because of this I spent a lot of time "practicing" writing and today I'm not too bad, still have to concentrate when I want to write fast though. In a way I'm glad I didn't know I was dysgraphic until a few years ago because maybe it would have given me an excuse to stop trying to get better. On the other hand, I wouldn't have felt like an idiot sometimes when I couldn't finish writing something on time or when my teacher couldn't understand my assignments. I know that dyslexia was recognized in my school and teachers knew about children who had been diagnosed with it, apparently it wasn't the same with dysgraphia. Recktray (talk) 20:51, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

George Its nice to see that the symptoms i have suffered all my life are so specific in other people as well. I can read and have always have with no problems, i can do math muliplication and division  as fast in my head as most people can type it on a calculator. I have a bad short term memory but a long term memory like a book, i can remember long numbers colours and sequences with no problem but struggle with words like ( the = hte or eth, and= nda most of the time. ) I can spell no problem, but i can not always see when i have made a mistake,  usualy not untill i touch the page. for some reason, eth reads the, untill i notice its wrong. I suffer pain down my arm when wrighting and i have warn a permanant welk on the skin of my finger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazy council uk (talk • contribs) 15:14, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I can confirm the pain, and that it is not at whole the physical pain - though it has physical component also, the more annoying part is kind of tension which builds up while writing. this kind of tension gets worse when one is on anti-psychotic medications like haloperidol, and seems to be somehow related, it is also alike pain coming from dyskinesia - side effect of prolonged antipsychotic drug use. generally those things seem to be somehow related, as prolonged use of antypsychotics makes dysgraphia far worse, and it takes months to recover after just few weeks of taking them.

83.18.229.190 (talk) 21:33, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Genetic?
Any references on it being genetic? Both me and my brother have it, but noone else in either side of the family does.

in reply: we live in a very toxic environment, far more then at any other time in history. remember, the environment is also "inherited". But there is something even more insidious going on. take a look at this page about cord clamping and especially this article about brain damage caused by routine birth practices

Fine Motor Skills
i want to know if it has anything to do with playing the guitar. because i have been diagnosed with disgraphea but i shred the guitar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.191.36.25 (talk) 22:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * that is the thing about it. it is not necissarily a problem with all fine motor skills. I play french horn, which requires a lot of fine control, but i am dysgraphic. it only affects my writing. i just have a problem making shapes when i am processing them as symbols with meaning. it feels like, in my head, there should be a connection between the parts of my brain that think about letters and the part that controls my hand, but it has been severed. i know that is probably not how it works, but that is the best way of describing it. and as for it being genetic, my mother, grandfather, and cousin all have it.

I am glad too that this pag exists. I think Dysgraphia is often inaccurately described as a "learning disability". In the case of adults its not. I have had good writing up till the age of 45 (I am 59). When it first set in, I was very alarmed at what was happening (not knowing what was happening) and practiced my handwriting to improve it without much success. Obviously, this was very distressing and I didnt know the condition existed till today when I read about it on the Wikipedia. I found that when I use an awkward grip on the pen (holding the pen between the lowest joint of my index finger and my thumb)my writing and comfort improved, but still very untidy. When I write with a marker pen on a whiteboard, my writing is perfectly normal and I dont get fatigue. I cant explain this. It could be that the the way I hold the marker which is very different to a pen. I am most interested in reading other sufferers' experience with this strange condition and I hope medical science will turn its attention to finding a standard cure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mike2009a (talk • contribs) 23:35, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

if you didn't get it until age 45 you probably are experiencing something else such as carpel tunnel. Most/all? people who have this were born with it. For me the first sign of trouble was on day one of learning how to write, or actually even before that when learning how to "color". In my case it's not so much pain as muscle exhaustion (like weight lifting to excess). In answer to the question about Fine Motor Skills, I can only speak for myself, but yes, I do generally lack Fine Motor control, I am always dropping things etc.. Closest I can describe it, is that it's like being born with two Left Hands. If a normal person wants to get some idea of what's it's like to have dysgraphia, try writing with your other (non-dominant) hand and see how clumsy it feels, and how tiring the extra effort is. But in addition to difficulty writing, I am also constantly reversing letter pairs -- even while typing. For example I seem to be unable to spell "whihc" correctly on the first try, unless I focus on it, slowly, letter by letter (this has been quite aggravating and practice hasn't helped). Dysgraphia definitely has nothing to do with IQ, as mine is quite high -- but my (undiagnosed) inability to spell and to write caused me to flunk my way through school with just barely passing grades. If it wasn't for computer keyboards and spell checkers (we didn't have them when I was in school) I would not be able to function. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.40.212.131 (talk) 09:16, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

disgraphia..
me as well. im suffering from disgraphia too. my right hand always failed in writing im begun to noticed it when im on my high school days but now im an employee, few people only know about this. i know it's very rare. i also get fracture in my right arm when im 12 yrs old and its very worse, my bones broke and it gives the stress im feeling now it gives big contribution in my writing disability. what i get is 16 stitches and i know im not normal anymore like my friends its very disavantage for me. I tried to practice my left hand in writing but when im already get it i get bone fractured again in my left wrist while playing basketball. i get 8 stitches and a titanium metal inside to support the bones it is more worse than my right hand i cannot lift any more heavier than 7 lbs., i cannot use any on my hands anymore,it backs to zero again and again. sometimes destiny is bad. i hate writing. when im child i had a potential in drafting and drawing many say that i will be best in that field someday, but it lost and gone now...i had no potential anymore since both of my arms are injured. thanks God. it makes my life like hell. -heavy arms(philippines)

sorry to hear this... depending on what type of work you are doing, your best bet could be to get a speech recognition system. If you want to do drawing, most of it is done by computer now any way, using CAD. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.162.190 (talk) 23:54, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Besides speech recognition, htere are also computer mice that you can control with your feet -- or by tilting them wiht your hands. also you might find a trackball to be easier to manipulate. I even met a computer programmer who was paralyzed in a car accident and was only able to type by using a straw, so don't give up, there are some options. 67.40.212.131 (talk) 10:09, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Female dysgraphic
Being a backwords peep is hard enough as it is, it's even harder when your alone! so it's nice to see you all...   So feel free to email me you guys, i think you can, maybe not? if not i will just post again..

i am not spell cheeking this!!! wahooo!

Any way of checking if you have dysgraphia?
I'm begging to suspect I have this, any aid in letting me know for sure?
 * I went to my doctor because of the pain I felt after writing, who then sent me to a specialist physiician lady, who told me about dysgraphia. Maybe you could do the same? I live in England, however, so this could be different to where you are. Sorry if that was pointless and obvious, and good luck. Voici 19:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I have dysgraphia it was noticed really early on because my mom has it, so I was able to find out that not only do I have Dysgraphia, but also Dyscalculia, Dyslexia and ADD. Needless to say that school has been hard, but I was in a very good school system so I received help from an early start. I had really bad pain in elementry school, but they went away once I reached fith grade, either that or I just got used to them. I am just now in high school and things are not getting easier but I have the feeling they never will. oh well. It's cool to know that there are more people out there that have this problem. Ugahbooness 22:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)Ugahbooness

Dyscalculia??? I assume that means trouble with math?? didn't know such thing existed, but yes now that you mention it, I also struggle very hard with basic arithmetic, never previously thought of it as a disability though. none-the-less I still score very high on IQ tests, so it's not like I'm retarded, it's just that some things, such as memorizing the multiplication table -- which I never succeeded at -- are inordinately hard. 67.40.212.131 (talk) 10:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Symptoms
I know someone who has dysgraphia. She can read and understand perfectly well, and she can write--in the sense of composition; in other words, she can dictate a letter or exam answer perfectly. But she cannot mechanically spell or write, be it by hand or on a keyboard. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.132.233.128 (talk) 00:55, 22 December 2006 (UTC).

What the individual above is describing is dyslexia or some other disorder of written expression, not dysgraphia. Dysgraphia is a psycho-motor problem that makes holding a writing implement painful to the point where holding a writing implement is virtually impossible and legibility becomes increasingly diminished. Asturnut (talk) 06:00, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

I think I have this as well. I'm currently law school, and I've always scored in the 99% percentile on intelligence tests. I could dictate an exam answer perfectly, and I've won spelling bees... BUT I can't write to save my life. No matter what I do, the words don't seem to sound right. A paragraph of this length generally takes me about 15-20 minutes to write because I can never choose the right words. I can't stand it. No feelings of pain... just difficulty stringing words together.

advertiseing
This seems far to much like advertisements to me, especially the first part, however I dont want to get rid of it personally, because someone allways blames me for vandalism.

"People who struggle with symptoms of dysgraphia usually benefit from vision therapy. Seventy percent of what a child learns in school is processed through the visual system. Even a minor visual processing problem will interfere with a child or adult performing to their potential and could cause symptoms of dysgraphia.

Symptoms of Vision Problems:

Avoidance of near work

Frequent loss of place

Omits, inserts, or rereads letters/words

Confuses similar looking words

Failure to recognize the same word in the next sentence

If you or your child experiences any of the above, P.A.V.E.® (Parents Active for Vision Education) recommends a learning related vision examination by a behavioral optometrist.

Optometric visual training, frequently called vision therapy or VT, is that part of optometric care devoted to developing, improving and enhancing people's visual performance. Clinical studies on the use and effectiveness of vision therapy are available.

Any struggling student should have a complete evaluation by a behavioral optometrist. Testing should be done at distance and nearpoint to assure that both eyes are working together as a team. Vision is more than clarity, and is a complex combination of learned skills, including tracking, fixation, focus change, binocular fusion and visualization. When all of these are well developed, children and adults can sustain attention, read and write without careless errors, give meaning to what they hear and see, and rely less on movement to stay alert.

To find a qualified Behavioral Optometrist, please visit the (COVD) and the (OEP) websites.

1.College of Optometrists in Vision Development (COVD) This organization serves as the certifying body for Doctors in the Optometric specialty called Behavioral/Developmental/Rehabilitative Optometry. If a doctor chooses, he/she may apply for COVD fellowship after successfully completing a Residency program in Vision Therapy or Binocular Vision or after three years as a Behavioral Clinician. Fellowship is difficult to obtain and is only granted after interviews, publishing and knowledge testing is completed and accepted by a committee. Fellows are certified specialists in vision therapy. If you would like to go directly to their membership directory, click here. http://www.covd.org/membersearch.php

2. Optometric Extension Program (OEP) Foundation The OEP Foundation is an international non-profit organization that serves the educational needs of behavioral optometrists by providing continuing education credits and provides public information about vision care. If you would like to go directly to their referral list of doctors, click here. http://www.healthy.net/oep/OEPSearch.htm"

/end previous comment.

Are these conclusions widely accepted? It could be a very useful section, if the opinions can be documented with more external links. Also, shift the tone to neutral point of view(NPOV) and express it an encyclopedic manner. For length purposes, is moving it to an article stub appropriate? Nickalh50 (talk) 03:30, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

The above is a description of dysLEXia not dysGRAPHia. Yes, the above is a rather spammy promotion of a high cost$$ item, yes I have seen other people claiming that dysLEXia can be cured with (their) expensive vision training system. These claims are hihgly dubious for dyslexia and do not apply at all to dysgraphia whihc is to do with the morto skills of the hands. (I decided not fxi to the errors in this paragraph for illustration purposes of what happens when I type at full speed. The mixde caps is deliberate for emphasis of the difference between the two words. I strongly feel that the abvoe should NOT be in the article at all until it can be proven that it si not just some more snake oil 67.40.212.131 (talk) 09:25, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Tags added to section titled "Learning related vision problems"
Hi,

I added the POV and Unreferenced section tags to this section, but could have added several more — I just stopped after those two. There are several things objectionable in this section:


 * No citations to support claims {"People who struggle with symptoms of dysgraphia usually benefit from vision therapy")
 * Includes specific recommendations ("Any struggling student should have a complete evaluation by a behavioral optometrist.")
 * Uses 2nd person ("you"), which is unencyclopedic ("If you or your child experiences any of the above ...")
 * No citations for statements of (supposed) fact ("When all of these are well developed, children and adults can sustain attention, read and write without careless errors, give meaning to what they hear and see, and rely less on movement to stay alert.")

In addition, the use of Vision Therapy as a reading or writing intervention is highly controversial. At a minimum, this section should include a statement about the controversy, perhaps including which types of organizations endorse vision therapy and which vehemently assert that using the therapy as an intervention for reading and writing is not supported by research.

Best,

Rosmoran 00:16, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

References needed
I think this article needs quite a bit of work in terms of references throughout--Vannin 06:21, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I concur, especially the reference to the AlphaSmart product in the treatment. Seems like a cheap attempt at advertisement to me - I'd suggest that this be removed unless a reference indicating that the AlphaSmart is uniquely qualified for use in dysgraphia in a school setting is inserted. 74.77.128.175 (talk) 18:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Our intelligence is measured relatively to others in our societies. If one cannot perform a task being done by most people, he or she shouldn't engage in professions requiring writing, for ultimately - They are not intelligent enough! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.219.131.6 (talk) 07:44, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Dear 62.219.131.6, I strongly disagree with your statement, I can't hand-write (physically unable), I sturggle with spelling and arithmitic, but on IQ tests -- I don't want to sound boastful so lets just say that it's way up there, and I am able to write clearly and conscisly with the help of a spelling checker and keyboard, I am also considered to be an excellent computer programmer. By the way, I deliberatly left the spelling errors to give some idea of the extent of the problem I struggle with; but I would further point out that your gramatical structure is exceedingly sub-par, perhaps, by your own reasoning, you should refrain from writing??? 67.40.212.131 (talk) 10:40, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

First refwrence is broken Chabrez (talk) 06:11, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

understanding
Hi I am dysgraphic as well and I would like to say that I am glad that such a page exists because I have found that dysgraphia is the most unheard of learning disability I was picked on by my teachers now I am only suggesting but I think a section on how hard it is to identify for children because I am in year 10 and I only just found out I was dysgraphic last year and I suffered at primary school for 7 years because my teachers just thought I was stupid and that my handwriting could be cured by extra work thanks for reading Kyle25157 (talk) 08:12, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm unsure as to why dysgraphia is classified as a "learning disability," as it in no way impairs the ability to learn, nor is it necessarily related to any inability to learn. Any "learning disability" due to dysgraphia is purely a result of thoughtless (in)action on the part of educators and/or parents. While dyslexic-dysgraphics may additionally be deficient at spelling (hardly a category of "disability" unique to anyone), all three dysgraphic types are perfectly capable of achieving written-speech through typing, if allowed to do so. Hand-written documents are largely deprecated, so I see no great need for educators to focus on one's handwriting deficiencies.


 * That aside, dysgraphia is perfectly easy to identify in children who are past an age where handwriting skills should have been acquired. The issue is not identification, the issue is that dysgraphia is treated now as left-handedness was treated in the dark ages: torture the child hard enough, and you'll "fix" them. As a motor-dysgraphic, I should know. Grades suffered for years before I was allowed to submit typed work, and they continued to suffer whenever I wasn't. It was a relief when I finally found out that I wasn't "lazy" just because I found it difficult to hand-write a paper. 68.166.26.173 (talk) 12:18, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I know what you mean. its not a learning disability, because i have no trouble learning. i was identified very late, and elementary school was horrible. teachers telling me to 'just write better', giving me repetitive excercizes that did nothing but hurt me, and they thought i was stupid because i didnt do any of my work, because it was all written. everthing i did do they got mad at me for because they couldnt read it and it was really short (i used to sit for ages trying to think about how to write the shortest answers possible to my questions) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.29.31.126 (talk) 22:27, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * At a minimum it interferes with the educational process, or the learning environment, as it makes it difficult for the teacher to get feedback on the skills and understanding of students. When the physical act of writing with a pencil is the only issue, typing can help bypass that but only after the typing skill has been acquired and the typing instrument is available (a computer at home doesn't help in an in-class activity).  So for that student it is a "learning disability" for some educational situations, even if the student has no difficulty with the mind-related meanings of "learning".  -- SEWilco (talk) 01:10, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi, i am a dyslexic-dysgraphic. i have experienced some problems in english classes, picking things up a little slower, and not only because of my writing. i still get the teachers, not making fun of me, but something similar. i'm a senior in highschool, and last year, my english teacher actually laughed at me and called me a liar. i proceeded to fail that class, despite my best efforts. the only ways i have found around it are typing, and brevity. i have been know to write a 2 page essay in 3/4 of a page, and gotten an A. as for my handwriting, when i'm writing quickly, it gets all smooshed up and very illegible. when i write for extended periods of time, i start to feel "the pain", which i attributed to the length of writing time, unitll today. my spelling skills are atrocious, even though i have a rather wide vocabulary. its reassuring to know that i'm not the only one with this problem. i hope everyone of us is able to get some kind of recognition/help in the public eye some day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.11.174.53 (talk) 06:08, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

When you say that "It's not a learning disability", I think what you are trying to say is that just because we can't write, does not imply that we are stupid (or lazy). But perhaps I can illustrate how this becomes a severe learning disability when it goes undiagnosed. In my case, I had a number of conversations with teachers who expressed their bafflement, they could see that I was very intelligent and yet they could also see how much I was struggling with routine class-work. None-the-less, this was quite a few years ago, and so, even though the teachers knew something was wrong, they did not understand what was wrong and had no idea of how to help me. It was not until I was an adult and had dropped out of college, that I finally started putting the pieces together and getting some inkling of the problem. but I digress... let me get to the specific example. When I was in about the 4th or 5th grade, the procedure was that you took a hand-written test -- mostly spelling. The tests were evaluated and you were assigned to a specific English class based on the test results. Because I was unable to spell or perform acceptable levels of hand-writing, I ended up in the Remedial English class. The thing is though, that I was already reading at a college level, so while everyone else was struggling with "See Dick and Jane run". I was sitting there literally being bored to tears. The fallacious assumption was that spelling ability and reading comprehension are equatable. I had tremendous potential and could have been a brilliant student -- I did in fact get straight-As in all the science classes, e.g. physics, chemistry, biology -- all the things most people dreaded, I excelled in. But in every class (the majority of classes) that required extensive writing or spelling, or rote memorization, including basic arithmetic, I was getting C's and D's and the occasional F. I also remember the time (about 2nd grade) that I brought home a spelling test with an F on it, my "parental unit" beat the krap out of me... I never ever brought home another paper again... and strangely they didn't ask. Undiagnosed and Unassisted, I only just barely managed to graduate from High school (despite a very high IQ). Even worse is that being placed in the Remedial English class also put me into the cross-hairs of the worst bullies in the school, who also happened to be in that class. I still bear the scars (physical and emotional) from some of those encounters. There were times when I was not even quite sure that I was going to be alive to graduation. The teachers and school administrators remained willfully oblivious to the hellish situation that the bullies were enabled to create. But the fact that I was unable to spell and write placed a tremendous drag upon my academic achievement and limited my opportunities, not only because of being placed in inappropriate classes, but also because of the still undiagnosed problems, I ended up dropping out of college, so lost out on many job opportunities etc.. So, yes, Dysgraphia can have severe and long term consequences. I wrote the above because there are some people who are actually paying attention to this page, and trying to make changes in the educational system, thank you thank you, please don't let anyone else go through what I experienced, my life could have been so much different if only someone knowledgeable had stepped in to help. 67.40.212.131 (talk) 12:06, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Dubious sources and example image
I see two problems with this article: 201.231.81.53 (talk) 02:26, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) The quality of its sources is below average, and they don't entirely support what the article states. Sources range from brief dictionary definitions (which don't support the details in the article) to some random website from a school psychologist, which is not peer-reviewed. The best source is from NINDS, but it's way shorter and less detailed than Wikipedia's claims.
 * 2) The example picture was taken by a Wikipedian and shows her own handwriting. It doesn't show anything worse than poor handwriting. Many doctors have terrible handwriting and don't suffer from dysgraphia. As it is, we have to take this Wikipedian at her word. A picture from a reputable medical site would be a better option.

Regardless of whether or not she has dysgraphia or not, I think it's a poor image for an example. I'd be glad to donate a sample of my writing, which makes hers look like a calligraphic masterpiece, but it'd run into the same problem of not being verifiable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:7:2380:C30:89C6:6C48:D092:E97C (talk) 05:45, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Other uses of Dysgraphia, acceptable or not?
Wikipedian User:Benlisquare and myself have written an article about a phenomenon called character amnesia whereby people who communicate in written Japanese or Chinese and who predominantly use cellphones and computers to do so are reporting increasing difficulty remembering how to write those characters by hand, sometimes even common characters. These people often have to have their cellphone handy as a reference whenever they try to write out a note by hand. In the first sentence the phenomenon is described as a form of dysgraphia, because its nice to have a word for things and because a reliable source (NYT article) calls it that. I figure you guys have more experience with this term then I do. In your opinion, is this an acceptable use of the term "dysgraphia"? Metal.lunchbox (talk) 20:14, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

the discussion in response to this question has taken place on the Talk:Character_amnesia page.

Student Editing Project
I am a student working on this page as assignment, I am hoping to add more information about the different types of Dysgraphia, symptoms, school aid, and what the cause of Dysgraphia is. I am not limiting myself to those topics, but I feel they are the most important aspects of the page at this point in time. If you have any other suggestions please let me know =) Hkyoung01 (talk) 19:56, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

An outline of how I am planning to edit and change this page is to have a couple of the definitions of Dysgraphia, in the next paragraph I will be discussing factors causing dysgraphia (brain and genetics). The following paragraph will briefly explore the different types of dysgraphia, and then I will discuss the symptoms and side effects of the disability. I am planning to also extensively explore how teachers can help students with dysgraphia to help make school a better experience, and discuss how those with dysgraphia (old and young alike) can cope with this disability. I hope that if there are any concerns or feedback or information anyone would like added, you will reply to this message or send me one on my talk page. =) Hkyoung01 (talk) 19:56, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I have added a few sections and posted edits in the first 3 sections. Please let me know if there is any clarification needed. I have also applied for Did you Know ==DYK nomination==

Hkyoung01 (talk) 18:47, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Definitely an interesting article! In your introduction there is a lot of information that wasn't very related to one another. Have you considered grouping the information about the effects within the section for symptoms and side effects such as their difficulty with spelling etc.? I found some of your sentence structure confusing such as: "The brain response of individuals with dysgraphia is usually normal, but it fails to develop normal, functional connections amongst the different brain regions that are needed for writing." Could you say something more direct such as: In dysgraphia, individuals fail to develop normal connections among different brain regions needed for writing. I find the first part confusing. What kind of testing are we talking about? Are these general tests or specific tests for dysgraphia? Also have you considered adding Teaching children with dysgraphia as a subheading for treatment? Good luck with good article submission! Amae2 (talk) 05:20, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

hey Hkyoung01, This looks really good. I really liked the inclusion in the section about the symptoms that students like this are not unmotivated but there is emotional trauma there stopping them from working. One question I have for you for my own page is how did you manage to get the references to duplicatre the use of the number 4 for example and not just duplicate the reference again? Im having problems with this and it looks like you have a good grasp on this.

Sngriffi (talk) 21:00, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Hkyoung01, this is wonderful. Please take a look at the comment I added to the section called "Understanding". 67.40.212.131 (talk) 12:54, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Faulty sourcing
In addition to numerous uncited statements, and giving advice on teaching (which Wikipedia shouldn't do), this article fails to follow WP:MEDMOS and WP:MEDRS. There are numerous recent secondary journal reviews on dysgraphia available on PubMed, and this article should not be sourced to advocacy organizations and online dictionaries. Here is info on how to find the kinds of sources required for medical articles on Wikipedia: Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-30/Dispatches. Some page numbers are also missing on book sources, which could easily be replaced by recent secondary medical journal reviews anyway. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 01:13, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

revisions for Good Article
More medically and psychologically appropriate literature exists and should be cited here. I also agree that In The Classroom section should be specific about who recommends the particular suggestions made about how to teach these children. It is not only American children who have IEPs, though they are not used in all countries.

I believe the Causes section can be organized more clearly to reflect the multiple sources that may contribute to this problem, including motor, attention, memory (both working and executive functions) and language-specific issues such as orthographic coding. I don't think the paragraph needs to be much longer, but more coherent in its presentation of these issues and the specific ramifications in dysgraphia. For example, it says "Dysgraphia is not only a motor problem" but the first sentence says that it is a problem of working memory. By emphasizing that this is a problem with multiple causes, it would enable the reader to build a more nuanced understanding.

Can someone from Wikiland advise about the double set of references? I assume one set can be removed, but am certain which style is preferred. If someone can point me to wiki standards on this, that would be helpful. I am a newbie and finding my way with my students.

Paula Marentette (talk) 22:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, the references only need to be listed once (Guideline WP:FNNR). maclean (talk) 00:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I have reviewed the sources and tried to take out the inappropriate sources that were pointed out and replaced them with more appropriate literature. I have also gone through and revised the teaching section and hope that it is more suggesting. If there are other suggestions please let me know.

Hkyoung01 (talk) 23:13, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Hkyoung01, the article is greatly improved from when I last read it, thank you for the good work. I would like to suggest adding back in a section specifically on things that have been found to be helpful in assisting with this problem. Things like Keyboards, Spelling Checkers, and Speech Recognition; I believe have been well proven to be of huge value to people who are affected by dysgraphia. 67.40.212.131 (talk) 01:14, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Dysgraphia is (NOT) a hard disorder to detect
The article in it's current form (2011-11-24) asserts that Dysgraphia is hard to detect. I disagree with this, at least in the case of Motor-Dysgraphia it should be very easy to detect, all it takes is for the teacher (often overburdened, I know) to pay attention to what is in front of them. Actually I did end up with a limited amount of extra tutoring when learning how to print, but beyond a certain point my writing never improved and I never mastered cursive writing. It should be very apparent to the teacher when a student can not hand-write or takes much longer than peers, to write, just look at their paper, instead of dunning them for not being able to stay within the lines, ask why aren't they able to stay within the lines. It should also be pretty obvious when a student is experiencing hand cramps, if you see someone shaking their hand in class while writing you ought to consider that a major flag of difficulty. The other major red-flag that was totally ignored in my case, is when a student is consistently failing spelling tests. It is very easy to detect when a student is unable to learn how to spell, you just have to look at their test scores. The key is to not be dismissive of the students efforts, it is very easy to observe when a student is having more than normal problems, it is also very easy to just hand out scores... but unless the teacher takes the time to ask why is the student having problems, it will go undiagnosed; but it's not from the lack of evidence, it is from the lack of paying attention to the evidence. As a further observation, teachers at my school knew all about dyslexia and I was probably tested for it. But because I did not have any difficulty with reading, they were dismissive of my difficulties with writing and spelling, they seemed unaware of Dysgraphia... Which actually is a major premise of this talk page, all of these people with Dysgraphia, many of them giving accounts of how their teachers lacked knowledge of it's existence and consequently ignored or dismissed the students difficulties. 67.40.212.131 (talk) 00:44, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

The article also says, "Dysgraphia is known as one of the most common learning disabilities." Strongly Disagree. The main point of this talk page is that Dysgraphia is hardly known at all. It seems like everybody has heard of Dyslexia, but the collective experience by people who suffer with this malady, has been that hardly anyone knows about Dysgraphia. It may be that Dysgraphia is one of the most commonly experienced learning disabilities, but as the numerous accounts on this talk page attest, there are an awful lot of teachers who are unaware of it's existence and are dismissive of this problem. As a result of which, the toll in human suffering has been considerable. 67.40.212.131 (talk) 01:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC) P.S.  The fact that it has been difficult to come up with references for this article is a pretty good indication of the general obscurity of dysgraphia. By comparison I'm certain you would find plentiful amounts of quality references for Dyslexia. Dysgraphia is not well known, even if it does occur frequently.

I see from the GA review that what is needed is a greater emphasis on diagnosis. A teacher's suspicion will not count as a clinical diagnosis, so although the above comment dissents, I agree that this statement (Dysgraphia is difficult to diagnose) can be made but needs further support. It would be helpful to distinguish between a disorder that is difficult to diagnose (which requires a discussion of why it is challenging) and a disorder for which children are not often referred for diagnosis. With this in mind, the statement (In the Classroom section) that prevalence is not known could be clarified, is that a result of difficult diagnosis or underdiagnosis? Paula Marentette (talk) 21:02, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Paula, if a student is *consistently* failing a spelling or penmanship test that their peers are passing, that should NOT be taken as an indication that the student needs to be told to "try harder" or for them to be punished. It is also not something that ought to be ignored by the teacher. Instead it should be considered as a warning sign that the student is having great difficulty with things that their peers find routine. If teachers would only pay attention to these warning signs, the child could be diagnosed. But often the problem is ignored or dismissed as the student not trying hard enough. I don't know what the current level of teacher training is like these days, but when I was in school many years ago, there was lots of talk about and attention being paid to the problem of reading dyslexia, but not one single person or tv show that I encountered had any knowledge of Dysgraphia. I didn't even encounter the word itself until I was well into adulthood and actively searching for it. Even today if you take a random sample of people and ask them if they know what dyslexia is and then also ask them if they know what dysgraphia is, I believe that you will find a very large gap in general knowledge between the two. (Since you are a professor, perhaps this would make an interesting class assignment?) Teachers can only diagnose the things which they are knowledgeable about. So, I suspect that a lot of the alleged difficulty in being able to diagnose Dysgraphia is simply because of the scarcity of information/training about it's symptoms. The consistent inability to write or spell is every bit as dramatic as a dyslexic child who holds a book upside-down when trying to read. It is not difficult to give a child a penmanship test and to observe the result; it's been my experience that people with motor-dysgraphia will make visibly more effort and achieve a much lessor result than their peers. The difference should be easily discernible. 67.40.212.97 (talk) 19:20, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Reclassification in the DSM V
It seems that the DSM V no longer mentions dysgraphia by that name, instead bringing the diagnosis under the more general heading Specific Learning Disorder. The definition is also altered from what is presented in the intro to the article as written; it is now clear in the DSM for instance that Specific Learning Disorder includes difficulty with grammar and spelling among its diagnostic criteria, but not difficulty with the mechanical process of writing.

I imagine there are many other articles that have been impacted by DSM updates, so I'm hesitant to just jump in and make changes. Is there any accepted policy for how articles like this one should change as the DSM changes?

Personman (talk) 09:07, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

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