Talk:Farid al-Atrash

Untitled
Farid needs a picture here. Eventhough I'm sure there are no big-deal copyright infringements using some of the available Farid images on the web (like movie screen captures), adding an image to Wikipedia is like a law school exam. Maybe someone understands how to post a picture for Farid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.245.37.133 (talk • contribs)

Spelling of his name
So far the spelling is Farid Al Attrach, however, according to his website, imdb name, and most sites that come up from a google search, it shows up as Farid el Atrache. Im not very sure if this page should be moved... Is there anything in wikipedia to disambiguate the transliteration of Arabic names? Asabbagh 04:50, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The correct name according to his website is Farid El Atrache but it is Farid Al Atrache in IMDB. I googled the internet using many variants of the name and found the most used one to be Farid El Atrache link which has 53 900 results, so, I moved the page. --Meno25 00:52, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The actual spelling of his name is in Arabic. The correct transliteration is either according to the French method in which the 'sh' is rendered ch or the English version where 'sh' is 'sh.' The double 't' is incorrect because the Arabic letter has no shadda (doubling). For a while, European transliterations used to use 'tt' for the harder 'ta' sound, but this is not used in the Library of Congress or the IJMES systems of transliterations. His name is therefore al-Atrash or al-Atrache  IMDB is notoriously wrong or at least inconsistent in transliteration. 2601:644:400:4C10:9884:30D:EE17:1857 (talk) 20:29, 21 November 2019 (UTC)Sherifa Zuhur, 21 November, 2019.

unlisted film
This comment moved from the article:
 * there is another film not listed called " Akheer kedba" shared with samia gamal, Ismail yaseen>>>>>>>>

I don't know if that's the right name of said missing film, if someone can verify (or correct) this, please do. Asabbagh 08:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Move to Egypt
Actually, Farid's mother moved away from Farid's father for purely private reasons. elpincha (talk) 16:51, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

His MOTHER
Why is there no mention of his mother's origins? His mother was Lebanese and his father was Syrian. This should also be added to wiki Lebanon as well since his mother was Lebanese —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.209.132.117 (talk) 13:21, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Farid and Asmahan were Egyptian
Farid and Asmahan have Syrian and Lebanese bloodlines but it is unclear if they ever carried the nationality/citizenship of either country. Nationality, however, is not determined solely through bloodlines, but also by country of citizenship. Farid and Asmahan moved to Egypt as little children with no documents with their Lebanese mother and older brother. They applied for and were granted Egyptian citizenship and therefore it is ENTIRELY ACCURATE to state that they were Egyptian citizens of Syrian-Lebanese origin. (If Obama were Kenyan, he would not be president of the USA!)

Farid and Asmahan grew up and lived virtually their whole lives in Egypt and are buried in Egypt. They began their professional careers as teenagers in Egypt, and their careers were played out in Egypt. Farid's "romances" were in Egypt and Asmahan was married to Egyptians. In his well-known rivalry with Abdel-Halim Hafez, Farid was extremely sensitive to any comments casting doubt on his "Egyptianhood" and loyalty to Egypt (please see the many video clips to this effect on youtube).

We should therefore respect Farid and Asmahan's choice of nationhood and pay homage to the country that granted them asylum from childhood, granted them its nationality, nurtured their huge talents and careers and contains their remains. To do otherwise is inaccurate and ungrateful. (98.194.124.102 (talk) 23:58, 29 May 2009 (UTC))


 * Of course, Farid and Asmahan were Egyptian. Having Syrian or Lebanese blood does not mean much at all.  They lived all their lives in Egypt and became 100% integrated into Egyptian society.  All Egyptians considered them and their whole family living in Egypt to be native Egyptians, one of our own. Farid and Asmahan sang their beautiful songs in Egyptian Arabic, and their audience was mainly the Egyptian public and then the rest of the Arab population.  Plus, they were Egyptian citizens.  What else did they need to do to be considered full-fledged Egyptians?  (173.45.218.37 (talk) 20:59, 12 June 2009 (UTC))

Actually they did not live all their lives in Egypt non of them was born in Egypt, Farid was born in Syria and they both lived in Syria for several years. And also you need to provide documented evidence and sources for what you have written here. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Asmahan and Farid only lived outside of Egypt in their early childhood. Asmahan was married to her cousin in Syria for only a couple of years, and once her marriage ended, she returned to Egypt and lived there until her death.  Farid never lived in Syria since his childhood, and as the first user says, he wanted to be referred to as an Egyptian. (173.45.218.37 (talk) 01:10, 13 June 2009 (UTC))

sounds like the troll 98.194.124.102 is using a proxy: 173.45.218.37 trying to spread his lies and falsification of history. There is a clear pattern. Admins should take immediate action against him. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * What we need is a reference. Can the Egyptian propoents find a book or newspaper that says he is Egyptian?  If so we need that as a reference.  The same for The Syrian claim, is there a publication that says he was Syrian when adult? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:47, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I will not stoop down to the tactics of Miss Deliciousness (since she implies that she's not anonymous, then that's probably her real name). Miss Deliciousness does not seem to realize that interjecting her blurbs between already posted contributions detroys the chronology of the thread and just lacks courtesy!


 * In any case, please see the official STATE INFORMATION SERVICE website of the GOVERNMENT OF EGYPT. The Egyptian Government lists Farid Al-Atrash as one of the country's prominent EGYPTIAN FIGURES (see: http://www.sis.gov.eg/VR/figures/english/html/Farid.htm).  The website states that Farid left Syria with his mother (and as it is well known, also with his siblings Fouad and Asmahan) "at a small age".  The Wikipedia Article itself states that Farid and Asmahan immigrated to Egypt at ages 8 and 5, respectively, and were naturalized as Egyptian citizens.  They lived for the rest of thier lives in Egypt (except for Asmahan who was briefly married in Syria before returning home to Egypt) and all are buried in Egypt.  Virtually ALL of their musical work was created in Egypt and in the Egyptian dialect.


 * Since the Governemnt of Egypt declares Farid (as it did also his mother and siblings) as an Egyptian Figure, on par with Egyptian Giants Mohamed Abdel-Wahab and Umm Kolthoum, then my statement in the article that Farid and Asmahan were Egyptian of Syrian-Lebanese origin is absolutely and entirely accurate.


 * Please see also the abstract of an academic research paper from Cleveland State University and University of California, Berkeley


 * "Building a Man on Stage - Masculinity, Romance, and Performance according to Farid al-Atrash
 * by Sherifa Zuhur (see: http://jmm.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/5/3/275)


 * "This article explores the life and career of male singing star, instrumental talent, and Composer Farid al-Atrash, who created a prototype of the romantic male musical star from the 1930s until his death in 1974. An immigrant to Egypt and a member of a distinctive religious sect, the Druze, he arose from poverty and the invisibility of the previous generation of musicians thanks to his talent, ambition, and investment in his own film productions. A lifelong bachelor, he constructed a popular image with references to the authentic Arab Islamic poetic/historical past and an idealized version of modernity. Tales of his love affairs enhanced his popularity during his lifetime and were seemingly merged with the lyrics of his love songs. From Arabic sources, the author attempts to uncover the psychological rationale of a man whose life goals were shaped by his mother, who was overshadowed by his sister, and who consciously elevated music making to a professionalized art form.


 * "Key Words: masculinity • Arabic music • Druze • popular performance • Islamic culture • Farid al-Atrash"


 * Even Syrian website "Damascus Online" (see: http://www.damascus-online.com/Music/farid_alatrash.htm) states that Farid and Asmahan moved to Egypt in their childhood and makes no mention that Farid ever returned to, let alone lived in, Syria afterward.


 * Finally, Graeme, please allow me to quote you personally. You stated: "I must agree that it makes more sense to call Farid al-Atrash Egyptian!" (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:98.194.124.102).


 * Therefore, my statement in the article that Farid and Asmahan were Egyptian of Syrian-Lebanese origin is absolutely and entirely accurate. I ask that you please restore the Farid al-Atrash article to my latest revision.  Thank you.  (98.194.124.102 (talk) 12:39, 13 June 2009 (UTC))

This entire discussion about Farid's origin is silly. The most accurate way of portraying his origin/nationality is the way it is described now. The intro states he's Arab. The "early life" details where he was born and where he lived throughout his life. There is nothing wrong with that. Trying to state only that he's Egyptian or only that he is Syrian is not accurate. I wish people would post more substantive information about his body of work, rather than bicker about who can claim him as their own! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.110.180 (talk) 05:45, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Farid was born in Syria, Asmahan was born most probably at sea. Although they lived most of their lives in Egypt, and attained Egyptian citizenship, Farid, like some other entertainers of non-Egyptian birth faced worsening attitudes following the rise of Pres. Nasser and he moved in his later years to Lebanon. He visited Syria at different times in his life. Asmahan married there and her daughter grew up mostly in Lebanon. It is fair to see these figures as both Egyptian and Syrian (why Syrian? because nationality was still determined by paternal birth). 2601:644:400:4C10:9884:30D:EE17:1857 (talk) 20:35, 21 November 2019 (UTC)Sherifa Zuhur2601:644:400:4C10:9884:30D:EE17:1857 (talk) 20:35, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Farid and Asmahan were Syrians
Farids and Asmahans father was Syrian, in the Arab world you follow the father line. The Atrash family are Syrians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrash Farid was born in Syria and Asmahan was born on a boat to Beirut. Farid died in Beirut.

They later moved to Egypt, they was not born in Egypt. They're blood was Syrian and Lebanese. To call them Egyptians is not acceptable.

Asmahan lived in Syria for several years as an adult.

This is form the article: "In 1941, during World War II, Asmahan came back to the French Mandate of Syria (Syria was under the rule of Vichy France at that time). She was on a secret mission to convince her people in Jabal el-Druze to allow the British and Free French forces to enter Syria through their territory without a fight. In this way, she filled a similar role to that of Edith Piaf in France. The British and Free French promised the independence of Syria in return, and the Druze agreed. After the Allies secured Syria during the Syria-Lebanon Campaign, General Charles de Gaulle visited Sweida (the capital of Jabal el-Druze) where he met Asmahan, his successful messenger."

She would not have done this if she was not a Syrian.

and: "But it wasn't long before her cousin Prince Hassan al-Atrash came to Cairo and asked for her hand in marriage, so she returned to Syria where the marriage was celebrated in 1933, and gave birth to a daughter, Camellia. She lived in Sweida, her home town, where people dubbed her "The Princess of the Mountain" (of Jabal el Druze mountain). Her marriage ended in divorce four years later. After that she returned to Cairo and resumed her singing career, where she married the director Ahmed Baderkhan, but they were soon divorced. In 1941 she went back to Syria and re-married her cousin Hassan for a short time." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, you are blinded by nationalistic pride and overlooking the facts. No one is disagreeing that Farid and Asmahan hailed from Syria and Lebanon or that Asmahan lived in Syria as an adult for a couple of years when she got married to her cousin.  However, they EMIGRATED to Egypt as children and became EGYPTIAN CITIZENS.  That alone makes them EGYPTIAN.  When you deny this fact, you are distorting the truth.  Almost their entire musical repertoires were in Egyptian Arabic.


 * In addition to her Syrian cousin, Asmahan was married to two different Egyptians and lived the mojority of not only her childhood and teenage years when she started her career, but also her adult life when her career skyrocketed IN EGYPT, the country whose passport she carried. When her marriage to her Syrian cousin failed, Asmahan went HOME to Egypt.  She did not remain in Syria or try to live there.  Farid lived virtually his entire life in Egypt and was offended when people reminded him of his non-Egyptian birth.


 * People are not doomed for life to a certain nationality. People do EMIGRATE and become nationals of other countries.  Thank GOD that nationality is something that people CAN CHOOSE TO CHANGE.


 * Asmahan and Farid chose Egypt as their homeland and to be buried in Egypt. Even though he died in Lebanon, it was Farid's WILL to be buried in Egypt and his remain were respectfully flown to Egypt for burial at home.  You are making a big mistake by dishonoring the wills and choices of people after they have died.


 * PS: I think you should save your time and effort to correcting Wiki pages where your efforts are really needed, e.g., Golan Heights.  I have tried to claim the Golan Heights to Syria where it righfully belongs, but have been unsuccessful as the Israelis are all over those pages.  Please direct your efforts there and claim back our Arab land.  Thanks. (98.194.124.102 (talk) 21:00, 30 May 2009 (UTC))

"Egyptian" is a joke!
'''Farid was born in Syria to Syrian parents and later moved to Egypt. Asmahan is his sister.''' How can the articles call them Egyptians of Syrian origin? This is offensive and a lie. They was naturalized citizens in Egypt. they are both Syrians. The Atrash family is Syrian, there is absolutely nothing Egyptian about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Atrash —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.133.89 (talk) 07:42, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it possible for you to accept the compromise statement that he is Arab? PS thanks for taking this to the talk page. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:26, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Arab doesn't say much. He had a Syrian father and a Lebanese mother. Born in Syria. In the Arab world you follow the fathers line.

He later on moved to Egypt. To call him an Egyptian is a joke and is false. --85.229.133.89 (talk) 13:19, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Reliable Source

 * A clear-cut statement that Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash's migrant family to Egypt were granted Egyptian citizenship "وحصلت الأسرة علي الجنسية المصرية وظلت تنعم بها ومنهم اسمهان بالطبع", which can be translated to: "The whole family was granted Egyptian citizenship, and they enjoyed it, including Asmahan of course....", and can be found in this article dated 23 May 2008, by Abdel Fadil Taha in Al-Quds Al-Arabi, which is a very well respected Arabic newspaper. First sentence of last paragraph.  --Arab Cowboy (talk) 07:07, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Please see this live interview conducted in Lebanon with Farid al-Atrash and Abdel-Halim together in which Halim apologizes to Farid for referring to another composer, Baligh Hamdy, as "Egyptian" and Farid's response (Time 0:35), "I am also Egyptian".
 * In this live interview with Fuad al-Atrash, he states (at Time 4:34) that the al-Atrashes carried no passports when they arrived in Egypt. Their childhood neighbor, Edward Shalaby, states (at Time 7:24) that Farid was 6 -7 years old when they started to be neighbors in Al-Daher, Cairo. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

1. Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash were of Syrian (father)-Lebanese (mother) origin. There is no evidence to confirm that they held either citizenship. When they arrived in Egypt, the Atrash family possessed no passports. source: (1) [http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=asmahan%27s+secrets Asmahan's Secrets by Sherifa Zuhur. page 39] and (2) In this live interview, at Time 4:34 with Fuad al-Atrash, he states that the al-Atrashes had no passports when they arrived in Egypt, among many others.

2. Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash immigrated to Egypt at 5 and 8 years old, respectively, in 1923. sources: (1) Asmahan's Secrets, pages 34 (Asmahan born in 1917 or 1918) and 38 (family immigrated to Egypt in 1923). and (2) [http://books.google.com/books?id=_R-I_Gx5OgQC&pg=PA72&dq=farid+druze+egyptian&lr= Syria & Lebanon By Terry Carter, Lara Dunston, Amelia Thomas, Lonely Planet Publications. page 72 (Farid born in 1915)]

3. '''Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash became Egyptian citizens. ''' sources: (1) The Evolution of Rai Music Hana Noor Al-Deen, Journal of Black Studies, May 2005; vol. 35: pp. 597 - 611. and (2) article dated 23 May 2008, by Abdel Fadil Taha Al-Quds Al-Arabi "وحصلت الأسرة علي الجنسية المصرية وظلت تنعم بها ومنهم اسمهان بالطبع", which can be translated to: "The whole family was granted Egyptian citizenship, and they enjoyed it, including Asmahan of course....".

4. The entire bodies of work of both artists, Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash, were made in Egypt and virtually all was in the Egyptian Arabic dialect. sources: (1) Female Singers in Egypt and (2) [http://books.google.com/books?id=owhg2R8Ndy8C&pg=PA240&dq=farid+druze+egyptian&lr= The Druzes in the Jewish state By Kais Firro. page 240: "after they had moved from Jabal Al-Duruz to Egypt, Farid and Asmahan never again sang in the Syrian dialect"].

5. Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash's adopted homeland was Egypt. sources: (1) World Music: "they are Egyptian by adoption" and (2) Asmahan's Secrets: "The other side of her patriotism was to her adopted country, Egypt.".

6. Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash insisted on being buried in Egypt. sources:  (1) Sherifa Zuhur states, on page 165, quoting the Egyptian Gazette newspaper, "Asmahan wished to be buried in Egypt". (2) Farid died while on a visit to Lebanon and his body was flown back to Egypt for burial. Sami Asmar states here that Farid's older brother, "Fou'ad stressed Farid's wish to be buried in Cairo". See also (3) here too.

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 12:17, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Farid al Atrash held the Lebanese nationality. Singing in a certain dialect doesnt have to do with anything. Most Tunisian singers sing in the Lebanese dialect or the Egyptian dialect that doesnt make them either one. http://www.reference.com/browse/Farid+al-Atrash?jss=1 Lebanese bebe (talk) 10:10, 13 August 2009 (UTC) :)

Stop editwarring
Please stop editwarring till we get Asmahan finished.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 23:18, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Diaa, things that has already been agreed upon at the Asmahan article, do you want to go through them one more time over here? although they are the exactly same things? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:39, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Let's just make it later...--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 23:42, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I must say I'm disappointed, didn't you say you wanted to finish this buy the end of the week? and this is only prolonging it.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:13, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with you on all your points on this matter. I meant of course Asmahan when I said finish this. I think the matter with Asmahan is done unless AC raises more concerns. Till then improve the articles like you did with Asmahan. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 00:17, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Diaa, what do you mean by "I agree with you on all your points on this matter"? and which articles are you referring to for SD to improve?  Why did you edit Farid's article before any discussion on this Talk page and before Asmahan was finished?  Also, you started with the lead, which is the reverse of the process you followed on Asmahan!  I am asking that you please revert this article to what it was last week until we finish Asmahan.  This distraction is causing delay in finishing Asmahan.  --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:32, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I reverted to this Lead because in the Asmahan war your lead was the one who stayed till the discussion had a clear consensus. This time it's SDs turn.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 00:37, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, that's fair enough. Now, what do you mean by "I agree with you on all your points on this matter"?  and which articles are you referring to for SD to improve?  --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:42, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That the discussion is getting prolonged...?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 00:44, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This does not answer my question. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:46, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you want. I'm referring to Asmahan and Farid for him to improve, which both clearly need reff improvements and expansions. I also agree that I don't want to go through exactly the same things if they are exactly the same things. We'll see later with concrete references if he was Egyptian-Syrian or not. I don't wanna get into this debate now. If either of you has a lack of confidence in my mediating, I wouldn't have a problem abstaining from this discussion.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 01:15, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Diaa, no one is suggesting lack of confidence in your mediating effort; you're doing a great job. However, on the one hand, you say leave Farid's for now, and on the other, you tell SD to improve it.  This is a bit confusing.  I thought that by "I agree with you on all your points on this matter," you were referring to the points to which you had responded by "done, done, removed, removed,... etc." in my absence.  You will probably agree that it gets a little suspicious when a mediator makes a statement like this to one of the disputing parties.  I also agree that we should not have to go through the entire debate for Farid's article.  The delay in Asmahan's article is caused, in my opinion, by Annyong and SD's criticisms that each and every letter there has to be referenced.  They are not even allowing introductory statements to paragraphs or connecting statements between referenced ones.  Referencing each letter in the article is taking too much of my time.  I have not seen that in other articles.  --Arab Cowboy (talk) 02:11, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

He had Lebanese Nationality
Farid Al Atrash held the Lebanese nationality. He has a Syrian father and a Syrian nationality and a Lebanese mother and a Lebanese nationality. To write in the lead that he was Syrian-Egyptian would lead readers to believe that he had come from a Syrian and Egyptian bg. But he actually came from a Syrian-Lebanese bg. And since he held the Lebanese nationality the lead should be he was Syrian-Lebanese or vice versa, depending if you care about alphabetical order.

Listed under Personal life http://www.reference.com/browse/Farid+al-Atrash?jss=1

Lebanese bebe (talk) 10:04, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You seem to have no idea what you are talking about or how to edit articles on Wikipedia. Please read and observe for a while before making these outrageous edits.  The source that you quoted is a circular reference.  READ!!!   --Arab Cowboy (talk) 07:37, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Summary and Description
I added the Trivia part where readers would find eyegrabing information regardinf Farid Al-Atrash. Also added the Family part with an old photo where readers can find more about Farid's family and how talented they all were in the music area. The pieces added do not add any important part into the wiki, but it makes it fun to read and know more about Farid Al-Atrash. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haunteddeath (talk • contribs) 12:19, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

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500 or 350 recorded songs ?
introduction : "recording 500 songs and starring in 31 movies"

Legacy : "Over his lifetime, al-Atrash starred in 31 movies and recorded approximately 350 songs"

Elfast (talk) 15:09, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Well, if you had to make a list of every song, you will get a little more than 350. There are numerous songs that aren't officially recorded. There are also film scores that are not in this count. If you include recordings, this easily jumps to over 500 as many songs were recorded more than once. Especially before 1957, when there was a record version, and a film version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.24.122.142 (talk) 03:05, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:39, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Farid Asmahan.jpg
 * Fatrash.JPG