Talk:First ladies and gentlemen of the Philippines

Comments
Is Noynoy Aquino a "first lady" instead of Ninoy Aquino, who is the "spouse of the president"? Very debatable. Who hosted the palace during the term of Corazon Aquino? --Noypi380 08:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * For that matter, Is Mr. Arroyo also the "host" of the palace or just a "spouse of the president"? --Noypi380 08:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think Mr. Arroyo is really the host, since most of the State Dinners hosted by the President, he is always there, that is not debatable, he is always present in State Functions of the Palace. Meanwhile, as for Noynoy Aquino, I am not sure, during the term of her mother, I don't think she enjoyed hosting dinners for visiting dignitaries, etc. for her mother, she is just busy on her young showbiz career on that time, making movies during the late 80s and early 90s, that is as far as I can remember. --Glenncando 22:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

If Ninoy Aquino is enumerated as among the "First Ladies", even if he died before Cory became President, then shouldn't the other presidential spouses who died before their husbands became President be also listed, such as Alicia Syquia Quirino, the first Mrs. Osmeña and the first Mrs. Macapagal. Or for that matter, the second wife of Emilio Aguinaldo, whom he married after the end of his presidency? Just thinking aloud. Anyo Niminus 17:05, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Ninoy shouldn't be here
Since a first lady/gentleman should be wife/husband of the president, his status as being married ended with his assasination since marriage "from death do us part", not eternal. -- Howard  the   Duck  11:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Should be moved to "Ladies and Gentlemen"
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Piepieilovepie (talk • contribs) 00:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Article name
I suggest we move the article to "First Spouses of the Philippines". 122.53.107.77 (talk) 15:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:34, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Badly needs title change
The title of this article appears to me to be an unreferenced arbitrarily coined neologism, obviously derived from the U.S. term "First Lady" and is simply being haphazardly and in my opinion inappropriately applied to the spouses of any president of the Philippines, as if it actually was an officially utilized "title" of some sort. Wikipedia isn't a venue for promoting new terms or titles, in my opinion this articles sole purpose is simply an attempt at pushing the idea of using "First Gentleman" or "First Lady" as a title for any spouse of a President of the Philippines, without any substantiating support whatsoever. In my opinion, as pointed out above, this article badly needs to be renamed something like "Spouses of the President of the Philippines". cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 19:32, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I have always thought of First Spouse of the Philippines, which is more succinct than the title in its current form. Maybe I'll be bold and move it myself. --Sky Harbor (talk) 15:49, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with both of you. The title is too long for comfort, especially when "First Ladies and Gentlemen" could be condensed to "First Spouses" or something similar. As neither of these are official titles, I believe that Deconstructhis' proposition works better. Sang&#39;gre Habagat (talk) 09:50, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

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First Ladies (and Gentlemen) not necessarily spouse of the President.
The title is erroneous, since the there has been cases that the First Lady of the Philippines was not a spouse of the incumbent president. (the two Aquinos, and Sara Duterte has been touted for the role as First Lady despite likely president-elect Duterte having a living partner). Correct me if I'm wrong, "First Spouse" has never been used by the media. Also it also concerns me, how come Kris Aquino be de-facto First Lady if the title is unofficial? Even if "First Lady and Gentlemen" are unofficial its erroneous to name this article as "First Spouse of the Philippines" since there were persons who has held this title without being a spouse to the president.Hariboneagle927 (talk) 05:30, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps we should rename this article into Spouses of Philippine President with First Lady and Gentleman being a section of the renamed article.Hariboneagle927 (talk) 05:35, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * But then you renamed it to "Spouse of the President of the Philippines". The original article title (before you performed the move) is not incorrect or misleading. The media, in fact, have used the term. You can visit the following articles to see for yourself...


 * That's to cite a few. Okay, when a president is either unmarried, a widow/er or annulled (as in the case of Rodrigo Duterte, whose present wife cannot hold the non-office post because they're not legally married), that president assigns someone (could be a relative or someone very close to the president's heart) to fill in as the "first spouse". It just so happened that the Philippines had presidents whose wife or husband was "missing" or unable to perform the duty, that's why women like Kris Aquino, Victoria Quirino and Sara Duterte (who're never a president's spouse) assumed the traditional position (because they were chosen to do so). It's not misleading or erroneous in any way. &mdash; Mediran  [talk]  12:35, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay but then there is this anomaly that that Duterte's common law wife is not the First Lady (but is there any legal prohibitions preventing his common-wife from naming him first lady due not being legally married?, in fact Honeylet says that she is ready to take up the position. The title isn't even official. Also some even listed Sara Duterte in the List of spouses of heads of state, sticking out like a sore thumb). The move was admittedly to allow for the inclusion of Cielito Avanceña. In other countries these terms (First Lady and Gentleman) exclusively refers to the spouse. I know its possible that a non-spouse could be labeled with that title. I concede that the problem remains with the renaming but my intention was to retain the First Lady and Gentleman as a subsection as compromise where relatives that are not spouses are also listed. First Lady and First Gentlemen are not necessarily spouses and the reverse is true. There are also precedents for the move: India (who also uses the term), France.
 * That's to cite a few. Okay, when a president is either unmarried, a widow/er or annulled (as in the case of Rodrigo Duterte, whose present wife cannot hold the non-office post because they're not legally married), that president assigns someone (could be a relative or someone very close to the president's heart) to fill in as the "first spouse". It just so happened that the Philippines had presidents whose wife or husband was "missing" or unable to perform the duty, that's why women like Kris Aquino, Victoria Quirino and Sara Duterte (who're never a president's spouse) assumed the traditional position (because they were chosen to do so). It's not misleading or erroneous in any way. &mdash; Mediran  [talk]  12:35, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay but then there is this anomaly that that Duterte's common law wife is not the First Lady (but is there any legal prohibitions preventing his common-wife from naming him first lady due not being legally married?, in fact Honeylet says that she is ready to take up the position. The title isn't even official. Also some even listed Sara Duterte in the List of spouses of heads of state, sticking out like a sore thumb). The move was admittedly to allow for the inclusion of Cielito Avanceña. In other countries these terms (First Lady and Gentleman) exclusively refers to the spouse. I know its possible that a non-spouse could be labeled with that title. I concede that the problem remains with the renaming but my intention was to retain the First Lady and Gentleman as a subsection as compromise where relatives that are not spouses are also listed. First Lady and First Gentlemen are not necessarily spouses and the reverse is true. There are also precedents for the move: India (who also uses the term), France.
 * Okay but then there is this anomaly that that Duterte's common law wife is not the First Lady (but is there any legal prohibitions preventing his common-wife from naming him first lady due not being legally married?, in fact Honeylet says that she is ready to take up the position. The title isn't even official. Also some even listed Sara Duterte in the List of spouses of heads of state, sticking out like a sore thumb). The move was admittedly to allow for the inclusion of Cielito Avanceña. In other countries these terms (First Lady and Gentleman) exclusively refers to the spouse. I know its possible that a non-spouse could be labeled with that title. I concede that the problem remains with the renaming but my intention was to retain the First Lady and Gentleman as a subsection as compromise where relatives that are not spouses are also listed. First Lady and First Gentlemen are not necessarily spouses and the reverse is true. There are also precedents for the move: India (who also uses the term), France.


 * Or perhaps splitting the article into two "List of spouses of Presidents of the Philippines" (exclusive for spouses) and "First Spouse of the Philippines" (for people who held the distinction starting from Quirino's daughter) but then again the template "First Ladies and Gentlemen by country" refers to the spouses of head of states of the rest of the countries listed there.Hariboneagle927 (talk) 13:04, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Why is Honeylet's inclusion of some importance? Yes, the title isn't official, and, to be honest, I don't really know what's holding her from being First Lady. About the splitting of the list, why would we need a separate list of presidential spouses when there's already a list for them (this)? We don't want duplicates. Why would we list the spouses in the first place? It's unnecessary, there's no reason to list them. The reason we have this article/list because the post does a role and has become a tradition, a symbol. France has that article title instead because it doesn't have such distinction, but we keep that list because the spouses are notable for playing "a protocol role at the Élysée Palace and during official visits". Much like what this article is about. It's still true that the title refers to the spouse, but as I have said earlier, the president may appoint someone when he/she doesn't have one. The US also has First Ladies who were not actually the spouse of the president. Until Duterte announces her as his first lady, we cannot include Honeylet to the list. &mdash; Mediran  [talk]  14:24, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I gather that you just made a separate list. Can you please justify why we need it? &mdash; Mediran  [talk]  14:46, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I get the point with France. Reverting edits concerned. I got to ahead of myself on adding the list. It doesn't help that the template's s title links to "List of spouses of head of states". Hariboneagle927 (talk) 15:01, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you Hariboneagle. I did appreciate your edits and initiatives. But we should be clear on what we do here. Still, your boldness deserves credit. Thanks again, and cheers &mdash; Mediran  [talk]  15:28, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Sucession source?
According to the a inline citation, Victoria Quirino was the first one to have the distinction. Shouldn't be the list starts with her and the wives of Aguinaldo to Roxas excluded since they weren't called "First Ladies" then. Or is there some kind of official source for the succession even though the distinction wasn't still use during the time of Aguinaldo to Roxas?Hariboneagle927 (talk) 15:04, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, the first time the term "First Lady" came into use doesn't imply that the person who was first referred to as such is really the first in the order. http://tumblr.malacanang.gov.ph/post/49154261054/today-in-history-in-1949-former-first-lady. &mdash; Mediran  [talk]  15:44, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clarifying.Hariboneagle927 (talk) 12:55, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 3 September 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Move to First Lady or Fist Gentleman of the Philippines. We have consensus that the "First Spouse" construction isn't in wide use. Cúchullain t/ c 13:27, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

First Spouse of the Philippines → First Ladies and Gentlemen of the Philippines – Per WP:COMMONNAME. Also, not all First Ladies were spouses of the President so the current title is also inaccurate and misleading. Example: First Ladies Sara Duterte, Ballsy Aquino and Victoria Quirino were presidential daughters. First Lady Kris Aquino was a presidential sister. Again, while these are all First Ladies and First Gentlemen, not all of them are First Spouses. RioHondo (talk) 03:52, 3 September 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. — Sam Sailor 00:11, 11 September 2016 (UTC) )

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.)


 * Support "First Spouse" is a neologism. While it was argued in the past that "First Spouse" is WP:CONCISE, it does not accurately portray the situation and most of the time the media either uses First Lady or First Gentleman. The term "Gentleman" and "Lady" themselves does not necessarily mean "spouse".Hariboneagle927 (talk) 04:35, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Concise. The term exclusively refers to the spouse of the head of state unless otherwise stated. Only one person officially held the title who is not a spouse which is an exception. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 20:54, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment - As affirmed by previous discussion "First Lady" and "First Gentleman" are titles and not "Just the spouse" of the President. There is no title by the name "First Spouse" and no government sources has used the term.Hariboneagle927 (talk) 02:57, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
 * True. Only Wikipedia uses this term "First Spouse" and is therefore WP:NEOLOGISM and WP:OR. Per WP:COMMONNAME, we must use commonly recognizable article titles.--RioHondo (talk) 04:10, 5 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Support – not all "ladies" and "gentlemen" are spouses of the President. Use correct terminology.  CookieMonster755   𝚨-𝛀    16:14, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Support but it should be in the singular per WP:PLURAL. Maybe First Lady or First Gentleman of the Philippines. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 18:54, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Symbol move vote.svg Relisted to allow more comments in light of the suggestion made by - please add new comments below this notice. . — Sam Sailor 00:11, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Support alternative. That is in fact the title in the article's lead.--RioHondo (talk) 16:35, 12 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Support First Lady or First Gentleman of the Philippines (first choice) or the nominator's suggestion (second choice) per WP:NEOLOGISM, WP:OR and the inaccuracy of the current title. —  AjaxSmack
 * Oppose The term "First Spouse" is actually not neologistic, and there is evidence that it is widely used: although the term is more prevalent in the United States, there is evidence of its use in the Philippines (here, here, here and here). Even when referring to people who aren't spouses of the President who've held the distinction of "First Lady" or "First Gentleman", there seems to be an implicit, if not explicit, recognition that the title is solely for the spouse/consort of the President of the Philippines unless that title has been explicitly offered to another person who is not the President's spouse.  Note that the title had only been offered to non-spouses three times out of sixteen.  WP:CONCISE notwithstanding, it does appear in my mind that while the title doesn't cover all uses of the term, it's nonetheless accurate. --Sky Harbor (talk) 00:37, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Google results: First Lady of the Philippines: 163,000 results + First Gentleman of the Philippines: 8,260 results vs First Spouse of the Philippines: 1,980 results Google Books: First Lady of the Philippines: 3,200 results + First Gentleman of the Philippines: 5 results vs First Spouse of the Philippines: 0 results.--RioHondo (talk) 17:05, 16 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Support alternative preferably First Lady or First Gentleman of the Philippines but any of the proposals (including the original move proposal) is better than the current title. Andrewa (talk) 22:06, 19 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Requested move 22 January 2021
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 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

First Lady or Gentleman of the Philippines → First Ladies and Gentlemen of the Philippines – The consensus appears to be using the plural and "and". See Talk:Second Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States. Showiecz (talk) 12:08, 22 January 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. — Nnadigoodluck  █ █ █ 11:37, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Support as per nomHariboneagle927 (talk) 16:37, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose: plurals of job titles should use lowercase per MOS:JOBTITLES (even if we consider this a formal title, which it isn't), and it would be more clear to use "Second ladies and second gentlemen", as the "ladies and gentlemen" phrase is a bit confusing. See also the RM at Talk:Second Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States. —&hairsp;BarrelProof (talk) 21:03, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Withdraw. to make way for a better alternative.Showiecz (talk) 12:26, 1 February 2021 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:First Ladies and Partners of California which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 07:06, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 17 February 2021
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The result of the move request was: Not moved  (t &#183; c)  buidhe  00:35, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

First Lady or Gentleman of the Philippines → First Ladies and Gentlemen of the Philippines – The consensus appears to be using the plural and "and". See Talk:Second Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States. Showiecz (talk) 18:43, 17 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose, only one (or none) person gets the position at a time, consistency with other Philippine positions and the First Lady of the United States should also be observed. ( Support for consistency's stake to match other "First Ladies and Gentlemen" articles. Also, since you withdrawn your proposal to move many articles similar to this, I'm gonna close the other discussion with "withdrawn" tag rather than a comment. ) PyroFloe (talk) 14:06, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose for the over-capitalization. First ladies and gentlemen of the Philippines would be OK, per MOS:JOBTITLES. Dicklyon (talk) 05:56, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose Inconsistent with other articles on political office-holders in the PH which all use the singular form for their respective offices, e.g, President of the Philippines, Vice-President of the Philippines, Governor-General of the Philippines, Ombudsman of the Philippines, Chief Justice of the Philippines, etc etc. List articles are a different story though where you can use plural as in List of First Ladies and Gentlemen of the Philippines.--RioHondo (talk) 06:18, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose capitalisation. <b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b> (talk)  10:28, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose: plurals of job titles should use lowercase per MOS:JOBTITLES. —&hairsp;BarrelProof (talk) 05:41, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment, this is not a requested move for the capitalization of the title since it is already capitalized, the main change here is the pluralization of "Lady" and "Gentleman" to "Ladies" and "Gentlemen". Replying to, who initiated a similar move request at Talk:Second_Ladies_and_Gentlemen_of_the_United_States, it has appeared that there is no consensus for the lowercasing of such a case. I think successive RMs of a similar scope should be avoided since there was no consensus there which also kind of affects this page. PyroFloe (talk) 04:27, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
 * There's actually a pretty long series of previous RMs about the lowercase and plural MOS:JOBTITLES issue. I think that one was basically an aberration due to being mixed up with the gender issue and the fact that "Second Lady" is not a formal title. Note, for example, that List of presidents of the United States was moved to lowercase following an RM closed on 5 August 2019. —&hairsp;BarrelProof (talk) 01:09, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
 * List of presidents of the United States is classified as a list not a full on article like this one. PyroFloe (talk) 12:43, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Sources?
I don't see any sources supporting the lead claim that First Lady or First Gentleman of the Philippines (Filipino: Unang Ginang o Unang Ginoó ng Pilipinas) is the customary title. Probably this should be adjusted to be a description, rather than a title. Lowercase, not upper. Are they any sources using either the English or the Filipino phrase as stated? Dicklyon (talk) 02:58, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Renumber
Since the 11th, 15th and 16th on this list are vacant should the numbers then be removed because technically if the position is vacant you don't number it since its not an individual. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 10:12, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * No the label clearly states "President Number" (Pres. No), not First Lady/Gentleman Number. The numbers are linked to their President rather than themselves. Hariboneagle927 (talk) 02:57, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

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