Talk:Foswiki

Untitled
Any reason, why there is no article about foswiki? Was there a deletion discussion? I can't find it ... -- 217.227.248.101 (talk) 19:09, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * See WP:Articles for deletion/Foswiki, WP:Requests for undeletion/Archives/December 2009 and WP:Deletion review/Log/2009 December 6. Here is the problem:
 * The situation is tricky because in most editors' minds the substantial publications about pre-split TWiki do not contribute to Foswiki's notability simply because of the different name. That Foswiki is "the" continuation of TWiki (assuming it's true; I have no idea) does not matter under this logic.
 * Only very few non-trivial press mentions, if any, existed at the time of the AfD. Anything that looks like a press release is not helpful.
 * The article might have survived given tact and careful maneuvering. Instead, a horde of angry people from a substantially different wiki culture (compared to Wikipedia's) arrived here and happily created enemy after enemy.
 * If you know of any good sources mentioning Foswiki, or better discussing it in detail, by all means list them here. Once we have enough of them I will make sure that the article is recreated. Normally it would make sense to discuss TWiki and Foswiki on a single page, but there are ownership issues with the TWiki article. Hans Adler 20:34, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Foswiki is notable as part of the History_of_wikis. That aside both projects, TWiki and Foswiki, feel the desire to maintain a wikipedia articles each on their own behalf more than trampling on each other's feet. See the recent edit history and related talk on the TWiki article. Please don't delete the Foswiki page. Thanks. Nuddlegg (talk) 09:44, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedians, I am not a foswiki developer (or even an user for that matter) but I believe Wikipedia standpoint doesn't hold anymore. The discussion made 3 years ago was that foswiki was only a fork of Twiki. This fact isn't true anymore. I check those facts: Foswiki had 15 releases since the project started; it has an user base and a healthy community of developers. I talked to them on #foswiki on irc.freenode.net and they were very polite and helpful. So I ask to remove the AfD flag on this article. Jonas Fagundes (talk) 16:07, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The tag stays until the AFD closes. If you want to keep this you need to find some sources about Foswiki that meet Our inclusion standard. If this wiki is so important why hasn't anyone written about it? Spartaz Humbug! 16:26, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Lets move this discussion to Articles_for_deletion/Foswiki_(2nd_nomination), I made my point there (and voted :)) Jonas Fagundes (talk) 18:21, 20 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Lack of notability is a problem that other software projects also have to deal with. To a Wikipedia outsider it is hard to understand why notability is held up strictly, while other pages seem to exist without discussion. As a Buffy fan I can read everything I would ever wanted, but still, why do separate pages exist for Daniel_"Oz"_Osbourne or Scooby_Gang_(Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer) - without "objective" references and which contents are covered elsewhere already. In the same manner, TWiki and Foswiki could reference each other. Or take somewhat comparable wiki engines, MoinMoin and DokuWiki which only contain references to pages from the projects. Again, to a Wikipedia outsider it is hard to understand the rules. ArthurClemens (talk) 18:13, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Lets move this discussion to Articles_for_deletion/Foswiki_(2nd_nomination), I made my point there (and voted :)) Jonas Fagundes (talk) 18:21, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

''Wait... which way did they go?!? ...ok, sure, let's talk here: Articles_for_deletion/Foswiki_(2nd_nomination) -pbr 4/20/12''  — Preceding unsigned comment added by PaulReiber (talk • contribs) 01:06, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Letting the Past stay in the Past
I'm adding this in hopes the Foswiki page is NOT deleted, and NOT re-redirected to TWiki, so that it can remain its own independent page - which it deserves.

Assuming we get to that, I'd like to recommend some minor edits which are in the best interest of both Foswiki and TWiki. It all comes down to not finger-pointing.

Wikipedia is not a battleground. WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND

The second paragraph for this page currently reads:


 * The Foswiki project was forked from the TWiki project by the bulk of the active development community after TWiki.net assumed direct control of the TWiki project and requested that all contributors agree to a new code of conduct before being allowed to continue working on the project.[1][2]

I recommend simplifying that:


 * The Foswiki project was forked from the TWiki project on 2008-12-26.

Period. End of sentence. Why get your hands dirty rubbing salt in old wounds?

Likewise, I would recommend a rework of the "Origins" section.

It could be as simple as something like this:


 * As sometimes happens when corporate interests interfere with open source projects, the TWiki project alienated a lot of its active developers when influence from TWiki.net management collided with the needs of the development community. The Foswiki fork resulted, banding most of the active independent developers into a new team which is actively improving and extending Foswiki.

I'll not be so bold as to edit the page myself - however I do hope that you all consider my recommendations above and act on them.

Kind regards, PaulReiber (talk) 04:06, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Can we agree on:


 * Foswiki launched in October 2008 when a dispute about the future guidance of the project could not be settled resulting in the departure of nearly all key TWiki contributors.

This is actually quite accurate and doesn't go into all of the details. Nuddlegg (talk) 07:30, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Outstanding. Great job, Nuddlegg. I love it!  +1. PaulReiber (talk) 19:42, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Further ways to improve the article: Nuddlegg (talk) 09:37, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The article mentions Twiki 17 (seventeen) times. That's definitely too much. (done)
 * The name isn't explained: Fos = Free and Open Source. (done)
 * It needs more examples how this software is used and by whom.
 * There are no screenshots.
 * The Extensions section needs to be elaborated more as that's an important way to customize the software.
 * The Foswiki Association e.V. needs to be mentioned. - done Swandodger 00:16, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Potential references
I'm moving the list of resources that were added the past couple of weeks here that aren't actively being used in the article. Some of them are pretty marginal (a paper that references Foswiki as an example is not very useful). Hopefully some of the Foswiki proponents will be able to pull the notable information about of these sources and add them to the article. As that's done, it would probably make sense to remove the reference from here as it should be on the main article at that point. Ravensfire ( talk ) 19:43, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

List
References that were added to the article are marked accordingly.


 * ADDED: Grzeganek, K.; Frost, I.; Gross, D (2011). Spoilt for Choice - Wiki Software for Knowledge Management in Organisations. Compares seven wiki engines regarding features like search, commenting, importing/exporting and workflow.
 * ADDED: Gross, Daphne and Frost, Ingo (2011). Die Qual der Wiki-Wahl - Wikis für Wissensmanagement in Organisationen. Open Journal of Knowledge Management, IV/2011. Comparison of eight wiki engines.
 * Schindler, Esther (2009), Computerworld (US) Highly anticipated open-source releases coming in '09
 * Bantle, Ulrich (2010). Cebit Open Source 2010 - Projektpräsentation Perl. Linux-Magazin Cebit 2010/Projekte
 * Ulrich Bantle (2012). Cebit Open Source 2012 -Foswiki. Linux Magazin Cebit 2012
 * Blankenhorn, Dana (2010). Black Duck honors best of 19,000 new open source projects. ZDNet. 2010-01-20. Retrieved 2012-04-22.
 * Bäcker, Renée (2010). Foswiki, Padre und OTRS: Erfolgreich Software entwickeln mit Perl. Lecture at CeBit 2010. Retrieved 2012-04-22.
 * ADDED: Fuchs, Roger (2010). Kooperieren statt Koordinieren. Universität Freiburg (CH), Department of Informatics. Retrieved 2012-04-22. p. 100. Foswiki is mentioned as one of five wiki engines.
 * Furthmüller, Steve Julius (2011). Das richtige Wiki für Unternehmen. PC-Welt. 2011-11-28. Retrieved 2012-04-22
 * ADDED: Prof. Anandarajan, Murugan & Prof. Ananarajan, Asokan. Eds. (2010). e-Research Collaboration - Theory, Techniques and Challenges. Springer. DOI 10.1007/978-3-642-12257-6. p. 215. Foswiki is listed as one of two recommendations for wiki implementations to be used for research projects.
 * ADDED: Kussmaul, Clif (2012). Wikis for Collaboration and Knowledge Management: Current Practices and Future Directions. In: Organizational Learning and Knowledge - Concepts, Methodologies, Tools and Applications. IGI Global. p. 1141. Foswiki is listed as popular wiki platform.
 * Hoefling, M., Menth M., Kniep C., Camen M. (2012). IPBM: An Open-Source-Based Framework for InfiniBand Performance Monitoring. In: Measurement, Modelling and Evaluation of Computing Systems and Depenability and Fault Tolerance. 16th International GI/ITG Conference, MMB & DFT 2012 Proceedings. Springer-Verlag. p. 238. Foswiki as base for an Open-Source IPBM Framework.
 * Göhring M., Niemeier J., Vujnovic M. (2010). Enterprise 2.0 - Zehn Einblicke in den Stand der Einführung. centrestage GmbH.
 * Wittkewitz, Jörg (2010). Marktübersicht: Firma 2.0.
 * Dölle, Mirko (2012). CeBIT 2012: Open Source und Linux. Heise. Retrieved 2012-04-26 (German). Mentions Foswiki as one of the Open Source projects at Cebit 2012.
 * Wuelfing, Britta (2012). | CeBIT Open Source Project Lounge -- Perl. Linux Magazine. Retrieved 2012-04-26. Foswiki is mentioned as one of the three Perl projects presented at Cebit 2012.
 * ADDED: Dreher, Felix.; Kreitler, Thomas.; Hardt, Christopher et al. (2012). DIPSBC - Data Integration Platform for Systems Biology Collaborations (provisional abstract). (provisional PDF) Describes DIPSBC, an interactive data integration platform supporting collaborative research projects, based on Foswiki, Solr/Lucene, and specific helper applications.
 * Martin, Kristin E. (2011). Marrying Local Metadata Needs with Accepted Standards: The Creation of a Data Dictionary at the University of Illinois at Chicago. In: Journal of Library Metadata Volume 11, Issue 1, 2011. Taylor & Francis. pp 33-50. About the creation of a data dictionary based on Foswiki.
 * Harrell Jr, Frank E (2009). The Wiki Approach to an Online Methods Resource. Vanderbilt University School of Medicine, Department of Biostatistics. Foswiki is used as the main example for a general background on wikis.
 * Lindner, Tobias (2010). Unterstützung des Projekt- und Wissensmanagements bei der Planung von Logistikstrukturen und Produktionsstätten durch Webanwendungen (thesis). Technical University Chemnitz. pp. 74-76. Foswiki is described as one of the three recommended wiki engines.
 * ADDED: Kussmaul, Clif (2011). Wikis for Education - Helping Students Communicate and Collaborate. t4e, 2011 IEEE International Conference on Technology for Education, 2011. pp. 274-278.
 * ADDED: Matthes F.; Neubert C.; Steinhoff A. (2011). Hybrid Wikis: Empowering Users to Collaboratively Structure Information. In: 6th International Conference on Software and Data Technologies (ICSOFT), Seville, 2011. pp. 250-259. Foswiki is mentioned as one of two structured wikis. This paper was awarded as best paper at the International Conference on Software and Data Management 2011 (ICSOFT 2011), Sevilla, Spain.

Selfpublished advertisement
Steven Walling, could you please explain why you added these two banners recently to the article? Which parts of it make you think so? Thanks for the feedback. Nuddlegg (talk) 06:49, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I removed the banners again as previous edits seem to fully address the concerns, imho. Steven, would you mind to review them and drop some comments in here? Nuddlegg (talk) 09:35, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

In response to the banner about advertising - which I personally consider to have been quite valid - I toned down the "sales pitch" nature of the description and tried to focus it back onto the features that make Foswiki stand out. --Swandodger (talk) 09:38, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Okay the claim that the article "may contain improper references to self-published sources" is back again without reacting on the related talk that we started here. Why? Nuddlegg (talk) 06:34, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The article primarily cites the Foswiki website. That is inappropriate. Please use independent secondary sources. Tech blogs are the bottom of the barrel, while books, magazines, and newspapers are best. Steven Walling &bull; talk   06:41, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Deletion of release history, flagging feature list
There have been some recent edits to the page that I don't agree with, i.e. the deletion of the release history as well as flagging the list of features as being in list format. After reviewing a couple of other software products on wikipedia, it seems common habit to in fact have a release history as part of the article, as well as listing the features of the software in list format. So I'd like to revert these two edits as they don't seen to be appropriate or at least not taking into account common practice on the rest of wikipedia with regards to articles about software. Before doing so, I'd like to hear the opinions of those who made those changes just to get a clear picture. Steven could you please shed a light on this? Thanks. If I don't get a reaction within a week, I'll revert these changes. Nuddlegg (talk) 06:28, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * This article is full content that is poorly cited to the Foswiki site, and in general needs strict cleanup. You and most of the other editors know that it just barely passed the most recent deletion discussion after multiple times being merged back into TWiki for lack of sourcing, and need to be more careful to not be promotional or sloppy. As for the release history, the golden rule is the unreferenced content may go at any time. In addition to being uncited, the release history is just plain boring. It doesn't give any info beyond the numbered releases. Second, the features list should be converted to prose to keep it to summary style and enforce strict neutrality, particularly because the article contains a lot of flowery features descriptions to begin with. Lists may be appropriate for large projects or noteworthy individual releases (such as the latest version of GNOME or Firefox), but not by default. Steven Walling &bull; talk   06:37, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I've made a number of updates to the article today. I removed a few statements that were full of marketing speak, cleaned up some grammar, turned the feature list to prose, and added secondary and tertiary citations. Some of them come from France and Germany, which I hope helps to improve the case for general notability for this article (given worldwide influence). I admit that some of the sources aren't airtight newspaper and magazine grade, but some of the added citations I added are from online magazines. Check the history for my changes. There's still more work to do, but I have run out of time to do it today. I'll try to squeeze in some more improvements at a later date. Lostraven (talk) 23:04, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

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