Talk:Frasier/Archive 2

Merge from Elliott Bay Towers
It has been suggested that Elliott Bay Towers be merged with Frasier. I don't agree, according to the talk page...

It was restored because it is important enough to be on Wikipedia. Although it is relativly small, it could be greatly expanded including mentioning details on Frasier's apartment.92.4.245.131 (talk) 17:32, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Enough of this ridiculous edit warring. I'm going to restore the article, then nominate it for WP:Afd. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:14, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Updating this page
I have been looking at this article for some time, trying to decide the extent of what needs to be achieved to bring this up to featured status. The first goal will be GA quality (backlogs may preclude actually acquiring the status), which may be preceded or succeeded by a Peer Review. On review, the article has some glaring issues; it is too balanced in favour of fan-based picking of select parts of episodes that highlight the excellent moments in this show. I know, because I love those moments too, but the article should be focussed on a more general appraisal, as our audience may not be that interested. A lot more content from a critical perspective needs to be obtained, and I've done some work rounding up sources to that effect. With the additional material, there is an even greater need to reduce and simplify the existing content. Having examined articles such as Cheers and Yes Minister, and thought about this show, the structure I propose is:


 * Lead - as usual a summary of the salient points per WP:LEAD
 * Situation - absorbing the existing Premise and Episodes material with a rewrite, this section may also use material about the characters, describing who they are and their relationships, thus also absorbing a large quantity of the material used in Cast#Regulars. Fairly substantial section as it is the most important, and will require suitable illustration
 * Connections to Cheers - absorbing Cheers connections and the second of the Records, with additional material on how the concept of the spinoff came to arise, which is not currently included
 * Cast - more prose-like that the existing section, with some of the very minor characters trimmed as they appear in a sub-article that should be referenced by a seealso template
 * Production - existing material, but expanded, including the cast members' roles in directing, etc. which are documented in the DVD extras. Seealso tag for List of Frasier writers, which allows the Writers section to be eliminated as superfluous.
 * Reception
 * Critical reaction - absorbing the current section, with several more sources to bulk it out
 * Awards - absorbing all sections and material currently in the article about awards, which are rather spread out at present
 * Ratings - keeping this all under one umbrella for clarity of navigation
 * Merchandising - DVD, books, VHS, etc. under one heading
 * References and External links

If I've not mentioned a section, I wasn't planning on its inclusion. Appearances outside Frasier for example is actually largely talking about things completely unrelated or only tenuously connected to the show. Other related material can be integrated into one of the above sections. Open for comments, and just letting you know that I plan to begin the massive rewrite on Monday evening, which will involve an inuse template - if you see me going wrong, your best bet is to drop a line to my talkpage as I'll notice on each save. Fritzpoll (talk) 17:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a good plan. Without a doubt the production and reception elements to it need vastly expanding beyond belief and the plot needs a more encyclopedic summary rather than fan favourite moments. At present it looks like a scruffy list to me, the Cheers comparisons atr actually longer than the most important parts of the article. Clearly needs a great deal of work, clearly not yet even a B class. Should be demoted to start class really, C lass at best. The Bald One      White cat 17:18, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

OK I;ve added tags to assist you. Good luck The Bald One       White cat 17:25, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It has begun.... Fritzpoll (talk) 11:50, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * How about revamping the episode articles? Most of them are unsourced and need some serious restructuring. THE AMERICAN METROSEXUAL (talk) 16:21, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Are you working on this or not? Dr. Blofeld      White cat 14:50, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Merger of all Frasier episodes to Frasier seasons
Recently an editor has merged all of the Frazier episodes into the Frazier seasons (example). The same type of merger was attemped on Outerlimits and the straw poll decision was to not to merge [No consensus (Keep)]. I am interested in the opinion of editors here.
 * Oppose merger travb (talk) 03:21, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What editor has merged all Fraiser episodes? What do the TOL episodes have to do with the Fraiser episodes? Wouldn't the right place to oppose a merger be the merge proposal? – sgeureka t•c 07:14, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose merger. If there are any editors who are going (right now or in future) to work about the individual episodes of this series, - merging must not be proposed in any case. Krasss (talk) 18:57, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment See also: Articles for deletion/Frasier's Curse in which administator MacGyverMagic wrote: "Close nomination Using AFD to delete an article when a merge is unsuccesful is abuse of process." travb (talk) 19:07, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

More information about the merger
Sgeureka calls editors contributions to Frasier article "Cruft":

Sgeureka wrote:
 * "I have been reviewing TV episode articles for over a year now for potential mergers, and I'd say 90 percent of them are absolute crap that should be AfDed or speedy-redirected..."

Based on the comment above, this means that Sgeureka sees editors contributions to Frasier episodes as "Cruft" also.

No discussion about merges, except here: Talk:List_of_Frasier_episodes where Sgeureka is the only commenter.

Ikip (talk) 09:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

It should be noted, that contributing Actors included several appearances of actress, Mercedes Ruehle, playing the part of Kate Costas, Station Manager at KACL, who had an affair with Frasier, and was a match to his intellegence.68.12.158.52 (talk) 05:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

The above opposition is moot. Articles for deletion/Frasier's Curse (2nd nomination) confirmed a random Frasier episode as non-notable and that it shouldn't have a stand-alone article. Without claims that an episode is notable (I've seen some Emmy wins), I am going to assume that the other episodes are just as non-notable. I'll keep interested editors informed at the official merge thread at Talk:List_of_Frasier_episodes. – sgeureka t•c 16:33, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

List of celebrity callers
It would be great if someone could make a list of all the callers. 66.41.253.22 (talk) 03:27, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I see now that there is such a list (though I don't know if it's complete) in the "Minor Characters on Frasier" article. 66.41.253.22 (talk) 04:48, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Any idea where we could get a source for the information that is reliable? Fritzpoll (talk) 07:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The DVDs. During the credits of season finals, a list of celebrity callers with their respective headshots is presented. 79.71.124.92 (talk) 10:34, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Opening credit colours
This is sort of a minor thing so it might be construed as trivia but I think it's kind of notable. I'm pretty sure, though I don't own the videos so I can't check for sure, that each series of Frasier has a different colour in the opening credits. Certainly in the penultimate series Frasier is written in silver, while series eleven has it in gold. I'm pretty sure all the others follow suit and I think it'd be a minor but worthwhile addition to the show if anyone can source it from the videos. Tony2Times (talk) 11:52, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * We can knock it into the production section... if we can check the list of colours from (probably primary) sources, we can do it. Fritzpoll (talk) 11:54, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

line of duty
Was Martin really shot 'in the line of duty'? I thought he accidently interrrupted an armed robbery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sura8 (talk • contribs) 14:40, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's what is meant by the "line of duty" - he was shot while on it (duty). It doesn't matter if it was accidental. 70.27.106.34 (talk) 06:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Wendie Malick in infobox
I have to agree with the editors who have deleted Wendie Malick from the infobox. She 1) never appeared in the lead credits and 2) only appeared in 10 episodes according to IMDb. This is fewer than many other guest stars including Tom McGowan, Edward Hibbert, Thomas Kerr, Saul Rubinek, and Jane Adams. We make exceptions for Dan Butler because he appeared in the lead credits in several episodes, and Moose/Enzo because they appeared in pretty much 100% of all episodes, but I'd be OK with excluding the dogs from the infobox if there's a consensus to do so there, too. YLee (talk) 16:00, 5 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The only principled distinction I can make between Malick and the other guest stars you mention is their episodes were spread out over more than one season, while Malick's 10 episodes were compressed into one. I also don't know who appeared in the lead credits and who didn't because I don't have the DVDs of the show, so I'll just accept your representation as to that. Still, I take your point (now that it's been explained more thoroughly, thanks) and have no objection to removing Malick. Unlike Frasier himself, I don't care if Eddie is left in the infobox (:-)), and I agree with the editor who put in the second dog - if we decide to keep the first.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:39, 5 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your cooperation. Regarding the lead credits, I've never seen Frasier on DVDs, but would be surprised if you saw anything differently from the TV version. The lead credits I am talking about are the regular actors' names in white in the opening scene; Butler's name appeared with those of Grammer, Pierce, Mahoney, Gilpin, and Leeves in several episodes with the actor, although I can't confirm that this happened in three different seasons as the infobox currently claims. YLee (talk)

Roz's nationality
I remember her origin being Scottish in one episode. Is there any source saying she's English? 76.6.140.215 (talk) 14:56, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Spoiler in Background
I was reading the Background and assumed there wouldn't be any spoilers, as it pertains strictly to background information. In regards to the last sentence in the first paragraph of the Background, "Niles becomes infatuated with, and eventually falls in love with, Daphne, but does not confess his feelings to her until the final episode of the seventh season.", that's a pretty big spoiler. Can we talk about having it removed or obscured to a degree where it doesn't give specific episode content? Every other part of the Background is pretty general and doesn't go as in depth as the above sentence. Keep it classy - Halojedi20 (talk) 01:46, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Halojedi20: Read WP:SPOILER. All articles have spoilers and should have. Including spoilers improves quality, especially per MOS:TV. --George Ho (talk) 02:48, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 7 one external links on Frasier. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100227095325/http://www.independent.co.uk:80/arts-entertainment/films/news/kelsey-grammer--has-heart-attack-838970.html to http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/kelsey-grammer--has-heart-attack-838970.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100106211654/http://www.classictvhits.com:80/tvratings/1993.htm to http://www.classictvhits.com/tvratings/1993.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20091026022514/http://www.classictvhits.com:80/tvratings/1994.htm to http://www.classictvhits.com/tvratings/1994.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20091109205105/http://www.classictvhits.com:80/tvratings/1995.htm to http://www.classictvhits.com/tvratings/1995.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100106211716/http://www.classictvhits.com:80/tvratings/1996.htm to http://www.classictvhits.com/tvratings/1996.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100103220626/http://www.classictvhits.com:80/tvratings/1997.htm to http://www.classictvhits.com/tvratings/1997.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100106204420/http://www.classictvhits.com:80/tvratings/1998.htm to http://www.classictvhits.com/tvratings/1998.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 04:58, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Dead External Link
Please be advised there is a dead external link to the article by Kay McFadden. I found a working ling at Erinsm (talk) 20:51, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

NBC and Paramount
Hello, GoldenGuy23. Do you think that citing both NBC and Paramount are necessary? You can read WP:Inline citation (WP:MINREF) and figure out which info is challenging or not. --George Ho (talk) 22:39, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi, George Ho. In reference to the Frasier web page, The only reason I put citations for both original network NBC and original distributor Paramount Television is because Frasier is currently distributed by a different network entirely (CTD). GoldenGuy23 (talk) 06:09, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * All right. Consider the info likely to be challenged for now. Well... not much of an issue to make a fuss about, but... I'll respect your edits then. :) --George Ho (talk) 07:16, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Nielsen ratings
Hello, TVBuff90. Why did you remove the Nielsen ratings chart? The edit summary is blank, so I think explanation is needed please. --George Ho (talk) 17:52, 20 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Because the ratings can be displayed in the series overview on the episode list. TVBuff90 (talk) 17:59, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Maris Crane
Should Maris Crane, Niles Crane's ex-wife, be listed in the "main characters" section? She never appeared in the show, and no one played her, but as Niles and many other people were often talking about her, she's an important unseen character on the show, similar to Sheridan Bucket on Keeping up appearances. J I P &#124; Talk 00:44, 6 April 2020 (UTC)


 * She's not a "main character" but seems like a recurring character to me, and an important one, too. I'm surprised she isn't listed, unless there's some rule that listed characters must have on-screen appearances? Grand Dizzy (talk) 09:08, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Season color
I notice the season colors (in the overview table) reflect the DVD box set color. Wouldn't it be better to use the logo colors instead? (Each season has a unique logo color.) Surely the color of the logo within the show itself is more authoratitive than box art, which can vary with re-releases? Having the logo color in the chart would also serve as a useful key for identifying what season an episode falls within. The column header could say "Season" then below that "(logo color)". I'd be happy to make this change if approved? Grand Dizzy (talk) 22:38, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The current colors must remain as-is, i.e. stay. There's nothing wrong with "DVD box set color[s]," and trying to change to logo colors would be fan reaction or abidance to fans, wouldn't it? Furthermore, they should follow WP:COLOR/WP:contrast. George Ho (talk) 23:23, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't see what it has to do with fans? I don't consider myself a fan, but to me it just seems like common sense to use the official season colors chosen by the producers of the show to represent each season. Using colors of the DVD box sets seems more like something a fan would do. That is a separate medium and not an intrinsic aspect of the show. Furthermore, I think the logo colors are worthy of mentioning in the article anyway, and a table would make sense, so why not just combine this information with the main overview table? Grand Dizzy (talk) 13:55, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * First, there are colors listed in Fandom and seen in video. Then use one of color contrast tools like Colour Contrast Analyser to test out which color is visible for either black or white text and for most (if not all) readers on mobile and desktop. --George Ho (talk) 19:39, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Forgive me but I didn't understand your reply. I don't really see what legibility has to do with anything, all I'm suggesting is simply changing the color of the boxes, like this: https://i.ibb.co/bKVx4fW/Before-after.png Grand Dizzy (talk) 21:58, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll elaborate further. Any color change may either affect or improve readability, especially of general readers, depending on which colors you use. If a background color is too dark or too light, then a reader would have difficulty seeing a text on front of the background color until you make minor correction (or change) to that color (or text color). To be sure, which code did you use for web colors? I would like to test out the colors for readability. (I bet it's hex triplet, isn't it?) As for matching which colors used for the show's logo, season 11's logo color doesn't look metallic gold, does it? I'm thinking golden yellow, almost similar to that logo color (methinks). And season 3's logo color isn't green; it's turquoise, right? Fandom has a list of the colors; so does a YouTube compilation video of opening titles. George Ho (talk) 22:22, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, and to change colors, you must also change colors at the season articles, like Frasier (season 1). I wonder whether you knew that. George Ho (talk) 23:55, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I hadn't realized the colors were also used as headings on the List of Episodes page, that explains what the colors are actually for, and why you mentioned legibility. This is not an issue though, I can use shades that work against black or white text. See example image: https://i.ibb.co/HqJ2fLd/Legibility2.png


 * As for season 3 being too green, most of the logos on the show used slight gradients - season 3 is greener at the top, and I sampled all my colors from the very top of the logo where the color is strongest. Instead of doing this, I would use an overall average of the hue, to get the best overall approximation. And yes, the final two season colors have a metallic/shiny effect. We can only approximate these to a single color. I don't think this is a problem, so long as the color corresponds with overall color of the one on the show.


 * As for web-safe colors, they are a thing of the past. To quote Web_colors: "Through the 2000s, use of 256-color displays in personal computers dropped sharply in favour of 24-bit displays, and the use of "web-safe" colors has fallen into practical disuse." Grand Dizzy (talk) 11:48, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * No worries about not realizing. Well, someone else changed the background color of one season article, so I had to match the colors without reverting back the changes made. George Ho (talk) 17:26, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * OK. How about I make a final selection of colors, or make the edit, and if you or anyone has an objection then it can be undone, no harm done? Grand Dizzy (talk) 17:59, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Um... How about this: give out proposed hex triplet codes in, so I'll test out with a color analyzer tool whether each season color is good for everyone, including blind readers, and whether that color abides to WP:color and consensus from 2015 discussion. George Ho (talk) 18:12, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Great, but what exactly do you mean by ? I would normally give colors in a format like #4F5D8C - is that any good? Grand Dizzy (talk) 23:22, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Um... never mind that format then. Anyways, according to the Colour Contrast Analyser, the #4F5D8C isn't a good color for black text, and any minor change to that color still wouldn't make black text readable. In other words, any major change to the color would make the black readable, but then the color wouldn't be the same.

For white text, the text is readable in Minimum mode (1.4.3) but not in Enhanced mode (1.4.6) (unless you enlarge the text in that mode). If you would like the white text to be more readable in both modes, I would just lessen the green color a little bit, turning the code into #4F548C. Notice that "5D" was reduced to "54". Turn the green part way down to "00" (i.e. #4F008C), and the Analyser tool finds the color passable, but then you would change the whole color. George Ho (talk) 00:15, 28 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Sorry, the color I gave was random numbers just to illiustrate the color format. I'll get back to you with 11 real colors. Grand Dizzy (talk) 17:04, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Unresolved Issue?
"One unresolved issue was whether Frasier and Niles were psychiatrists or psychologists. On a few occasions Martin says his sons went to medical school and were doctors. That would have made them psychiatrists. On other occasions it was said both had PhD’s, which would have made them psychologists. In one episode Frasier claimed to have both an MD and a PhD. This issue was never addressed and still remains unresolved." (unsourced)

The characters states explicitly many times that they are psychiatrists. (Not to mention, that they are referred to as psychiatrists in every other instance on the page.)

Drsruli (talk) 07:57, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Scene Captions
"Frasier had humorous "chapter headings" on black as bumpers." This is distinctive and deserves a mention somewhere on the page.

Drsruli (talk) 08:02, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. I was looking for this as well. I can’t find a reference, maybe someone with journalistic talents can ask the show. These cards seem to me like lines that were in the scene but scrapped for some reason. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s true. ritu_m (talk) 20:16, 4 June 2022 (UTC)