Talk:George M. Ll. Davies

Untitled
NAME OF ARTICLE - SHOULD IT HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO 'GEORGE DAVIES' ? I THINK NOT.

I have just come across the same issue with Robert Thomas Jones / R.T. Jones, the trade unioinst and Labour MP. No one ever referred to George Maitland Ll. Davies as 'George Davies'. The National Portrait Gallery calls him 'George Maitland lloyd Dvies'. See. So does the Dictionary of Welsh Biography - see. How widely has this change been carried out in relation to Welsh nmes - it is likey to cause chaos. Gwedi elwch (talk) 03:25, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Death Place
Worth anyone checking up where he died (such as through newspaper obituary or inquest report if he was a suicide), his Dictionary of Welsh Biography sketch only says "he died in tragic circumstances" without mentioning place or manner of death. If he was a psychiatric patient, it sounds like he died at the North Wales Mental Hospital (now closed) in Denbigh but I would want to be sure it was not another local (general) hospital before presuming to link him to the article on the hospital.Cloptonson (talk) 08:48, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

He died by committing suicide in The North Wales Mental Hospital in Denbigh (and personal knowledge) AlwynapHuw (talk) 05:01, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Title of this Article - Proposal to amend the title. Either (a) to a new title 'George M. Ll. Davies'; or (b) to revert to the original title, 'George Maitland Lloyd Davies'.
I raised this issue a few months ago. I would now like to make a proposal.

The title of this article was 'George Maitland Lloyd Davies'when it was first created in 2007. This remained the title until a name change was implemented in March 2018 - to 'George Jones (pacifist)'. I believe the question of the article's title has not been discussed before.

The subject of the article is usually referred to either as 'George M. Ll. Davies' or as 'George Maitland Lloyd Davies'. He is not usually referred to as 'George Davies' or even as 'George Davies (pacifist)'.

Examples of 'George M. Ll. Davies' include : (1) the classic one volume history of Wales by John Davies, A History of Wales (see e.g. Revised English Edition, 2007, at pp 499, 501, 510, 564); (2) the most recent biography - ''Pilgrim of Peace: A Life of George M.Ll. Davies by Jen Llewelyn (2016); so also the earlier volume, by Byron Howells - Swords into ploughshares : the mission of George M. Ll. Davies and that by Gwynfor Evans - George M. Ll. Davies : pererin heddwch''; (3) the usage of the National Library of Wales - which holds his papers : the NLW catalogues these as the "George M. Ll. Davies Collection", and refers to him in (e.g.) the Library's Annual Reports as 'George M. Ll. Davies' (the full title of the catalogue is A schedule of George M. Ll. Davies manuscripts and papers : presented by Mrs. George M. LL. Davies Dolwyddelan, 1951; (4) his own usage - it was the name which he usually appended to his own books and articles (I have done a WorldCat search) - for example George M. Ll. Davies is the name which appears on his autobiography 'Pilgrimage of peace' and his work Religion and the quest for peace. It is the form of his name still used by the Fellowship of Reconciliation, the pacifist organisation he helped to form in 1914. Similar examples could be multiplied - for example the Dictionary of Labour Biography.

There are a fair number of examples of the use of the full name, 'George Maitland Lloyd Davies' (though I think this is less common than 'George M. Ll. Davies') : the National Museum of Wales has used the full name to describe the sketch it holds; historians Gareth Elwyn Jones and R Brinley Jones have also used the full form of his name; references to him in UK Parliamentary papers usually have the full name; Who Was Who and the Welsh Dictionary of National Biography both use the full name (though this appears to be a standard convention with both works).

(The historian Kenneth O. Morgan has used both 'George M. Ll. Davies' - in his classic Modern Wales - and the full name - for example in Revolution to Devolution: Reflections on Welsh Democracy).

What title should Wikipedia use? The relevant policies can be summarised - "Generally, article naming should prefer what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature."

It is likely that people will turn to this article in Wikipedia having come across a reference either to 'George M. Ll. Davies' or to 'George Maitland Lloyd Davies' (more likely the former). Unless one or other of these titles is used, they will all be compelled to follow a trail into the disambiguation page. Moreover the present title is very ambiguous.

I have taken the time to set this all out because the issue is very likely to be a general one with Welsh names. Because so many Welsh names are identical, the Welsh have themselves developed ways of differentiating people. For example, a place name may be attached to a personal name - as in the case of George M. Ll. Davies' two famous relatives, the preacher John Jones, Talysarn and the industrialist David Davies of Llandinam. Or initials may be used - the great Welsh poets are known as 'R.S. Thomas' and 'T. H. Parry-Williams', and the Wikipedia articles on them are so entitled. The form 'George M. Ll. Davies' is an example of the second approach.

I propose that the title of this article is amended to accord with general usage. The options seem to me to be - (1) 'George M. Ll. Davies' (which would be my preference); or (2) to revert to 'George Maitland Lloyd Davies'. What do others think ?

Gwedi elwch (talk) 12:40, 26 October 2018 (UTC) Gwedi elwch (talk) 13:08, 26 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Note that he is referred to as George Davies in this BBC article, which is ironically about Llywelyn's biography (but not actually by her). I have no objection to George M. Ll. Davies, however. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:46, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Support George M. Ll. Davies Macs15 (talk) 10:22, 27 October 2018 (UTC)