Talk:Golden hamster

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

don't move. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) Seen this already? 07:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Golden Hamster→ Syrian Hamster– {"syrian hamster" is a more all encompassing name for that type of hamster, as "golden hamster" commonly only refers to the short-hairs of that particular coloring} copied from the entry on the WP:RM page


 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with  ~


 * Weak oppose. - Duff and Lawson (2005 - Mammals of the World: a Checklist), Musser and Carleton (2005 - in MSW3) and just about every other source I've seen that applies a common name to Mesocricetus auratus uses "Golden Hamster". I've only seen "Syrian Hamster" listed as an alternate name.  --Aranae 18:31, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Technically "Golden Hamsters" and "Syrian Hamsters" are one and the same. It is true that in Latin the name translates to "golden" but "Syrian Hamster" is more commonly used to include all colors and fur types, while "Golden hamster" more specifically describes the original golden short-hairs.  This article is about all types of Syrian hamsters, and that is why the main title should be "Syrian Hamster" rather than "Golden Hamster".


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Closing move discussion
Why was the discussion closed? I would hardly consider a single vote to move and a single weak oppose to indicate a consensus was reached to not move the article. --Aranae 16:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Wouldn't they just cancel each other out?

Even though the discussion is closed, obviously the weak oppose person wasn't looking at sources that considered pet hamsters. Wild Syrians are all golden because that is their color in the wild as well. But this page encompasses all Syrians, including pet ones (especially since they are probably extinct in the wild). If you look at pet hamster resources, especially for hamster breeders, fanciers, and show-ers, they are always called Syrians unless actually golden in coat pattern.

Hamsteries:

http://hometown.aol.com/TheRiverRd/

http://www.citadellets.com/

http://www.rainbowhamstery.co.uk/

http://www.jeremiahhamstery.co.uk/list.php?FA=1&FB=1

Hamster societies and associations (for hamster shows--like dog clubs that host dog shows, but for hamsters):

http://www.midlandhamsterclub.co.uk/

http://www.hamsters-uk.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=35&page=1

http://www.hamsoc.org.uk/varieties.php

Pet:

http://www.petwebsite.com/hamsters/hamster_species.htm

As you can see, this type of hamster, when considered as pets, are called Syrians, while "Golden" is an alternate name or a specific coloring. And seeing as pretty much ALL animals of this type are in captivity today as they have not been seen in decades in the wild, it is more sensible to name this article with the more commonly used name. (unsigned post by 141.211.173.150)


 * My interest in the page is from more of a scientific research perspective. I don't have much interest in the pet side of things, but recognize that that is probably what most readers will be here for.  That's the reason for the "weak" in front of my "oppose" vote.  I think we should consider the discussion still open and encourage others to continue the discussion and perhaps vote.  My vote remains weak oppose and I'd argue a solid vote in support for the move should count for more than my vote against it.  --Aranae 07:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright. My argument remains that "Syrian" is by far the more widely used and popular name even though they are both alternate names for the same animal.  Also, the only known continuation of the species today comes from breeders and/or hamster fanciers, who use the term "Syrian" as well.  For all intents and purposes the wild "Golden hamster" probably does not exist anymore, and so with all remaining "golden hamsters" mostly being called "Syrians" by those who breed and own them, "Syrian hamster" would be the more sensible title for the page.


 * Here's a good page by the Hamster Society, affiliated with the British Hamster Society:

http://www.hamsoc.org.uk/varieties.php?id=golden " Syrian hamsters were brought to the UK in 1931. To begin with, golden was the only colour, but new varieties soon appeared. Although the terms "golden hamster" and "Syrian hamster" have been used interchangably, "golden" should apply only to the original wild (or Agouti) colour. A good example of a modern golden hamster is more akin to deep mahogany red than golden." If an organization makes itself the accepted authority for the development of an arguably extinct species, wouldn't you say that makes a pretty good source?

I agree this article should be under Syrian Hamster not Golden Hamster. Golden Hamster makes it sound like it just includes hamsters that are actually golden, or that there aren't other color varieties. And like some of the last people said, most people call them Syrian Hamsters now, so this article should too.

I also agree that the name should be Syrian Hamster. The term Golden was given before all of the variations exisited. 21:33, 5 July 2010 (UTC)mlatham23 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mlatham23 (talk • contribs)

Alien Hamster
I'm considering adding a line or two about "alien hamsters" (hairless syrians). It's a rather detrimental mutation (along with no hair, females can't lactate) and are very carefully bred with haired parents that carry the gene. But they are somewhat more of a novelty and can't stand alone as a breed (due to females basically being unable to rear young). Any thoughts?
 * This variation is caused by breeding 2 satin furred animals. It is not a desirable trait and the NHC recommends against breeding for this trait. Mlatham23 (talk) 02:05, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Mlatham23
 * What does "NHC" mean? I assume the H means "hamster" but what is the rest? You should add it to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHC 108.81.134.236 (talk) 08:16, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Endangered species?
Why? There are a lot of them, most of them as pets I know, but I bet that they could do well if released in the wild. Cuzandor 23:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The golden hamster is facing a very high risk of extinction in the wild in the near future in their native Syria.

The IUCN lists it as EN B1+2c :


 * Extent of occurrence estimated to be less than 100 km2 or area of occupancy estimated to be less than 10 km2, and estimates indicating the following:
 * Severely fragmented or known to exist at only a single location.
 * Continuing decline, observed, inferred or projected, in area, extent and/or quality of habitat.


 * —Pengo 22:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Then what if someone releases his/her pet hamsters into Syria? Cuzandor 00:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That would be very wrong to do. They are different to their wild ancestors. They have long been kept in laboratoriums and as pets. Selection by humans has changed them. It would polute the wild gene pool. Peter Maas 08:58, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Just added information of wild Syrian hamsters caught in 1997 and 1999 that now are in Germany to form a new breeding stock. After successfull breeding their offspring could be released agian into the wild. Peter Maas 14:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge?
Black bear hamster ~user:orngjce223 how am I typing? 21:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

How much does a Syrian hamster weigh?
How much does a Syrian hamster weigh? What's the expectation for the average weight of a Syrian hamster? The article gives information for what you could expect for the length of a Syrian hamster [the article states "Adults grow from 5 to 7 inches (12.5 to 17.5 cm) in length"], but no information for what you could reasonably expect a Syrian hamster to weigh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kwakkles (talk • contribs) 04:29, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

In my observation they weigh around 4 oz. 70.137.155.84 (talk) 01:32, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Requested move Feb 2010

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Syrian Hamster → Golden hamster — WP:RODENT uses sentence case now; and "golden" is used by MSW3 and the IUCN Red List, whose names are usually used for mammal names on Wikipedia; and besides is more common on Google with 484,000 hits to Syrian's 301,000. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 20:23, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Rename per WikiProject naming convention and usage in reliable sources (also Google Scholar: 37000 Golden vs. 30000 Syrian. "Golden" is not used overwhelmingly more often, but it is used in two of the highest-quality reliable sources, as Innotata notes, and should be preferred as the article title. Ucucha 20:27, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Rename to "Syrian hamster": this is the phrase used by most hamster books (such as Hamsterlopedia) and is more appropriate now than when the species was originally given the name due to the many syrian hamster variations. "Golden" already redirects to the article, anyway, so there would be little confusion caused. While the sources provided do refer to the species as "golden hamsters", they both state this is a "common" name, not the actual name. --Tb240904 (talk) 15:46, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * What is the difference between a "common" name and an actual name? Ucucha 15:54, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested Move July 2010

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus. harej 09:05, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Golden hamster → — – {"syrian hamster" is a more all encompassing name for that type of hamster, as "golden hamster" commonly only refers to the short-hairs of that particular coloring}


 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~


 * Support --tb240904 Talk Contribs 23:32, 25 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose I don't see the problem with "golden hamster", but not all commonly used names are perfectly logical, and golden hamster is clearly the commonly used name for the species. By the way, Wikipedia doesn't exactly vote. &mdash;innotata 13:31, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The problem with "golden hamster" is that it describes a variant of syrian hamster. Now that there are more than 50 colour variations, the term "golden" is inappropriate. --tb240904 Talk Contribs 12:31, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Also, what was the above, if not a vote? --tb240904 Talk Contribs 12:32, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell, golden hamster is the most commonly used than name for the species as a whole; as Ucucha noted, it might not be much commoner than others. It was an opinion; read the page I linked for more info. &mdash;innotata 18:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm ambivalent about this, since "Syrian" isn't overwhelmingly less common than "golden" (same order of magnitude, according to the numbers in the previous RM). Apparently, "golden hamster" is also in use for a particular color variant of the pet form of this species (something that wasn't clear to me before), so in the interest of clarity "Syrian" may yet be better. Ucucha 13:38, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Weak oppose. Both names are fine and both are used to about the same extent in the biomedical literature. But the zoological literature clearly favors "golden hamster", even though this name can also refer to a more inclusive Mesocricetus auratus (including brandti and other forms) than I've ever seen "Syrian hamster" do (this makes "golden hamster" the more encompassing name, BTW). Obscure pet market naming conventions should have no influence on the names used in a general encyclopedia. -- Torben Schink (talk) 09:29, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Original Color Pic Needed in the Lead
The Golden Hamster has been bred into many colors and long haired also. The current picture does not represent the current Syrian Hamster as it appears in the wild in Syria so therefore should be changed. The current picture could be moved to another part of the article but I believe the lead picture should represent the original short haired version as it appears in the wild in Syria because this article is about the syrian hamster. On another point I have a actual hamster that is a hybrid of a Big Golden Hamster crossed with a little Siberian Hamster which was long haired but did not have the very long hair near the tale like a angora Golden Hamster. The hamster is one quarter siberian hamster and three quarters syrian hamster. I mated the hybrid female with another Peach colored Golden Hamster. The weird thing is that most of the babies all appear as Golden Hamster but one is much smaller then the rest and looks like one of those little siberian hamsters but with long hair. It came from the same litter and is so much different then its brothers and sisters in both form and color. It was the last one to be weened from the mother. I am going to keep this little one to breed with perhaps crossing it back with a full blooded siberian hampster. Hybrids are so cool. 108.81.134.236 (talk) 08:07, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Importance ranking
says, "Syrian/golden hamster is currently mid importance for rodents... Maybe the species should be high?"

I changed the importance here to top. WikiProject_Rodents/Assessment assigns top importance to "topics of a continental or global nature". Syrian hamster is one of world's most popular pets and one of world's most important research animals. In the field of rodents this is a top importance animal.  Blue Rasberry  (talk)  21:24, 17 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. No objection if you want to bump the domestication article back up to high (it just seemed weird to me to have something that's clearly a subtopic rated with a higher importance than it's parent topic). Plantdrew (talk) 21:45, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Merge of animal testing content to own article
I just removed content from this article on animal testing. I put all content with citations into a new article, animal testing on Syrian hamsters. I then copied the lead of that article here, and linked to the main article. This section could be expanded but I think before the coverage of specific conditions was excessive and now there is a review of everything. I changed the section title from "use in scientific research" to "use in animal testing" because that is how other similar Wikipedia articles are named.  Blue Rasberry  (talk)  02:32, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Introducing some sub articles
I just made these articles live and linked them from here.
 * Syrian hamster breeding
 * Syrian hamster care
 * Syrian hamster behavior
 * Hamster cage

The hamster cage article has more Syrian hamster information but much applies to any hamster.  Blue Rasberry  (talk)  04:19, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Merge proposal
You suggested a merge of Domestication of the Syrian hamster into this article. I do not immediately see why - this seems like WP:UNDUE detail for me adding about 10k of prose to this article when I think that would be excessive. Can you say a bit more, and also give an opinion about whether these should be merged? My initial view without knowing what you see is that all of these can stand alone, none of them are more suitable for a merge here than any other, and all of these are likely to develop further on their own. Thanks.  Blue Rasberry  (talk)  13:05, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Syrian hamster behavior
 * Syrian hamster breeding
 * Syrian hamster care
 * Syrian hamster variations
 * Laboratory Syrian hamster
 * On the contrary, the extremely short "Syrian hamster behavior" should definitely be merged into the species article, the rest could be merged into an article about hamsters in captivity. Note that the Syrian hamster article itself is not particularly long. We don't need this many WP:content forks, especially when there is no reason at all for splitting (size limit is not even close). As for "undue detail", that goes mainly for the overuse of quotes, which may not be appropriate anyway. I suggest you look at some previously promoted articles about animals to see what goes and what does not, a related example could be Camas pocket gopher, which is much longer than this one. FunkMonk (talk) 13:10, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Unreliable sources
, if multiple people register concern with a source, then you do NOT get to force it in by edit-warring. This is the blog of a pet food company, written by whatever employee has the job of answering customer questions; it does not fulfill our requirements for reliability. Please find a better source or desist from trying to add this material. (BTW, edit-warring with an admin is generally considered a suboptimal choice.) -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 20:01, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 13 May 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus.  Calidum   19:21, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Golden hamster → Syrian hamster – WP:COMMONNAME. "Syrian hamster" on Google renders 1,270,000 results, while "Golden hamster" renders 499,000 results. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥ ) 06:02, 13 May 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. buidhe 04:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment Google's result counts are so unreliable that they don't tell us much. They're within the same order of magnitude, so they're probably used about the same. Britannica uses golden. There are also some previous move discussions on this from 2010. – Thjarkur (talk) 09:46, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose - IUCN, ITIS, and Mammal Diversity Database all list it as "golden hamster." Not sure that all the Google hits are reliable sources or even necessarily referring to the same species/subject, or as the name of this species (as opposed to a description).  If there are sources of the quality of ITIS or IUCN that list species as "Syrian hamster" rather than "golden hamster" then those should be provided as evidence of the need for a move. Rlendog (talk) 20:39, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: Not sure what to do with this one! See the two above RMs and the list at category:Syrian hamsters and read this and bear in mind that Caroline Kennedy was three when she and Billie and Debbie moved in to the White House. There are BLP issues there of course, and an obvious possible movie plot, and the best laugh I've had since COVID-19 moved in (thank you, they've been a bit rare lately, haven't they). But to the chase... how are we to get some consistency and stability here? That's the question. Anyway, I think I now understand the obsession with these critters. Andrewa (talk) 16:57, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Gattermann's Der Goldhamster Mesocricetus auratus, 2021 book


The Germans are great lovers of hamsters and excellent in documenting natural history. I do not understand German, but I notice hamster resources from time to time in German language. There is this book by this zoologist, Rolf Gattermann, who has a history of publication and research on hamsters. The book came out this year and is more than 400 pages on the Syrian hamster.

I expect that this book is authoritative on many details which this article requires to be complete, and so I am sharing it here.  Blue Rasberry  (talk)  19:45, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Syrian hamster care into Golden hamster
WP:NOTHOWTO; not enough encyclopedic content on hamster care as a standalone topic. –LaundryPizza<b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 23:52, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose I acknowledge the "how to guide" problem, but I think the solution is deleting all the unsourced content first, then the inappropriate content. The topic meets WP:GNG and because of that, can have a stand alone article.  Bluerasberry   (talk)  10:45, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Support People reading Wikipedia expect information, not instructions. Not sure why that’s even an article. こもれびーさん <sub style="color:#FB859F;">Leave me a message!  06:41, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Change title to “Syrian hamster”
“Golden hamster” is a misleading name. They can come in many, many different colors and patterns, not just golden. “Syrian hamster” isn’t as misleading and is much more common. It indicates that the hamster is from Syria, which is true. And, not only that, but every other article calls it “Syrian hamster”. Syrian hamster variations, Syrian hamster behavior, Syrian hamster breeding, they all call it “Syrian hamster”. Even the invalid Syrian hamster care (invalid because it is a how-to article, and Wikipedia dosen’t accept how-to content) calls it a Syrian hamster. So it’s safe to say that the title should be “Syrian hamster”, not “Golden hamster”. GenZenny (talk) 17:13, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Second capture was in 1971
Until 1971 all hamsters in labs and as pets descended from the female captured by Aharoni in 1930. In 1971 Michael R. Murphy, a Ph.D. student at M.I.T., and his wife, Janet Fearn Murphy, obtained wild hamsters from the vicinity of Aleppo, Syria, and brought them back to Boston. They were housed at N.H.M.H. and kept as a separately bred strain, the Murphy strain. Murphy reasoned that the 1930 descendants might have been so inbred that this might be the cause of some unusual characteristics such as the ability to accept transplanted organs. The new availability of wild hamster has been useful for subsequent scientific research. 136.51.1.213 (talk) 17:55, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Following up on this, the writer of the above, commented on my talk page- she is the wife of the scientist and is keen the page represents the history - there's further clarification there from her. Lajmmoore (talk) 22:09, 28 December 2023 (UTC)