Talk:Haflinger

Pony or Horse?
Wait a sec -- aren't they considered ponies? I know ponies are horses, but, when speaking, it is more proper to call them ponies, is it not?

RebDrummer61alalala! [00:24, 15 April 2007 (UTC)]

I think it is a similar situation to the Icelandic horse which is in fact 'pony sized' ie. under 14.2hh but is named a horse and to call it a pony is often thought disrespectful in the native country. Many Haflingers are technically ponies when going by their height but as a breed has been named as the 'Haflinger horse' in its native country. However some Haflingers, especially more recently bred, can be 14.3hh or above so are definitely horses in size. 77.101.21.101 21:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually the size of an equine has less to do with being a horse or pony than the DNA does. All registered Haflinger Horses are DNA typed, and when one acquires a registered animal one receives both registry papers and a copy of the DNA as proof that - regardless of hand measurement - the animal is indeed a Haflinger HORSE.72.171.0.143 01:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Breeding Centre
Is it worth mentioning that there is a major breeding centre at Obergurgl in Austria, owned by a major landowner in that town. The owner of the centre also owns the Hotel Eidelweiss & Gurgl, the largest in the town; as well a numerous other buildings. I'm sure that all of this information will be sourcable. TheTrojanHought (talk) 22:13, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Tricky because of that line between information and commercial promotion. For example, Claiborne Farm has an article in wikipedia and is a Thoroughbred breeding farm of considerable significance, but it is not at all mentioned in the article Thoroughbred, not should it be (once you start laundry lists of breeders, it never ends and EVERYONE thinks their farm is significant).  On the other hand, a major center of Lipizzan breeding is the Austrian state stud at Piber, which IS mentioned in that article. Personally I wouldn't do it here, but I suppose Haflinger breeders could weigh in on the issue.  If this was the source of breeding stock and been around for 500 years or something...maybe...   Montanabw (talk) 00:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I've mentioned it in the Obergurgl article as I suppose it is more relevant, esp as the owners (the Screiber family) pretty much own the town. By this I mean that they own some of the hotels and several other buildings etc, and as Obergurgl relies on tourism then it has a big influence. TheTrojanHought (talk) 11:19, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Pre-GA check
Okies, you asked...

I'd question the following sources:


 * http://cowboyfrank.net/fortvalley/index.htm - doesnt' give its sources
 * http://www.haflinger.it/index.html - is this the registry in Italy?

Other concerns, any websites that aren't in English need to give the language they are in. Also a concern is that the whole thing is sourced to websites. If you're going to keep editing horse articles, probably a good idea to pick up a couple of "breeds of horses" books, like Simon & Schuster's Horses and Ponies of the World or similar. I'll try to do a copyedit, but right this weekend, I'm busy as heck catching up. GA isn't as ... picky... about prose as FAC is, so if you resolve the sources above, I'd go ahead and put it up at GA and keep tweaking while it waits. (I think current wait at GA is about a month, not sure, I've been slacking over at GA lately... been too busy!) Ealdgyth - Talk 14:28, 18 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Awesome, thanks! I have three different breeds books sitting on my shelf, plus access to at least two more through my local library - just haven't gotten around to sticking them into the article.  I usually edit while I'm at work and don't have the books with me...  I'll start to work on that soon, then.


 * Gee, another person who has a suck-egg job, relieved from distress by the joys of wiki? Or are you just blessed with an ideal work environment LOL!  (grin).  I had the suck-egg job problem until about six months ago, when I bailed from the job!  LOL!   Montanabw (talk) 06:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hehe...actually more of an ideal work environment than anything else. I'm blessed (or cursed, not sure which) to be a fast worker with a boss who doesn't give me enough stuff to do.  Therefore, I edit Wikipedia instead of going insane playing endless games of solitare :) Dana boomer (talk) 21:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

In reply to Ealdgyth: I've replaced the Cowboy Frank refs. The second questionable ref is the Haflinger registry in Italy. I'm not sure which references you're referring to as not being in English...they all show up in English for me. I've also added several book references, either with new information or to replace iffy web sources. Hope this answers your questions, let me know if anything new has popped up. Dana boomer (talk) 21:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Photo swap
I have to say that I am sort of concerned that a head shot, however beautiful, was swapped out for the body shot, however much junk was in the background. It may be that you're going for FA, but still, there is now NO full body shot of an untacked Haflinger in the whole article to show what the breed type is. I'm also a bit concerned that the photos there are not entirely representative of what they do, as they really aren't exactly Olympic Show Jumpers, etc...the one jumping photo is nice, but I think there are now too many head shots and two jumping shots is overkill. I am now acutely aware of the problems with licensing, but ask Kersti over at commons to find stuff on Flickr, she seems to be a genius at it. Montanabw (talk) 06:07, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The current image situation isn't permanent. Both of the photos I removed (actually my two favorites, blah) have licensing issues, they were beautiful shots. For the head and neck shot I'm waiting on a reply from the uploader, and then I'll either put it back in or tag the image for deletion. Kersti (who uploaded the action shot) may be good at finding images, but she sucks at getting proper licensing - several of the ones I've had to remove from articles at FA have been hers, mostly because there's no evidence that the "original uploader" is also the photographer, and she hasn't been responding to tags or requests for additional information. I plan to do some searching on Flickr and other sites, and will definitely be replacing at least one jumping shot and one head shot. At the moment, however, I just want to get a feel for how many images I'll need, and I want to have images in there with proper licensing so I can change them out as I want to, not as someone tells me the copyright is bad. Having to replace a bunch just prior to an FA drive (a la Horse) isn't really that much fun, so I'd rather have good copyrights in there right now and replace as I find better photos. Dana boomer (talk) 13:36, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Makes sense, one thing I've noticed is that if you upload images properly from Flickr, the info posted on the Flickr page goes directly into the Commons page, not sure if Kersti did this, but I haven't had any trouble with that method and it seems to have a bot or something.  If the link to the Flickr page is good, may be worth trying to re-upload the image with a different name using Common's Flickr upload tool.  If the license isn't right on Flickr, the upload tool won't let you upload the image with it...Not sure if I'm making any sense here...but I've uploaded several Flickr images that way and while I suppose if the Flickr uploader wasn't the original author, then we do have problems, but otherwise, I think it works. I used it for several of the Budweiser Clydesdale images I had found.    Montanabw (talk) 22:54, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I know about the Flickr thing - there's even a bot now that will do all of the license choosing and stuff for you, which I've used a couple of times. The images of Kersti's that are an issue are mainly the ones that she brought in from other wikis, apparently without checking that the uploader had the right to release copyright. Anyways, I've replaced one of the jumping images so far, and will do more work on it as I add more information. Still have 2/3 of the book left that I'm working on right now, and one book that looks specifically at the breed in N. America waiting to come in through ILL right now. So we'll see how the article turns out. It'll probably still be a month or more before the article goes to FAC, and that's assuming I can find another copyeditor if Malleus doesn't come back full time. Dana boomer (talk) 00:04, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Lit search
There were 302 hits in the ISI Web of Knowledge, searching for "Halflinger". Many of these mention the horse only peripherally, or discuss biochemistry, vet med, or other highly technical stuff I thought weren't really applicable to this article. Many more were in other languages (especially Italian and German), and many were conference abstracts. I didn't worry about the older stuff (i.e. pre-1990) as I figured the secondary sources already used in the article would have covered the importance stuff already. Here's the rest. Let me know if you want me to send any to you; I won't have access to all of them so I included the abstracts for easy viewing. I noticed a few papers discussing this horse as a meat source, which the article doesn't go into that much. (p.s. I haven't checked if any of these are already used in the article) Sasata (talk) 21:26, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Title: Meat quality and intramuscular fatty acid composition of Sanfratellano and Haflinger foals
 * Author(s): Lanza, M; Landi, C; Scerra, M, et al.
 * Source: MEAT SCIENCE  Volume: 81   Issue: 1   Pages: 142-147   Published: 2009

Abstract: The goal of the trial was to evaluate meat quality, with an emphasis on intramuscular fatty acid composition, of Sanfratellano foals, compared to that from Haflinger foals, both slaughtered at 18 months of age. Thirty foals, half of Sanfratellano breed and half of Haflinger breed, naturally weaned at 7-8 months, were divided into two homogeneous groups at 15 months of age and fed a finishing diet based on polyphite hay and concentrate. The finishing period lasted three months. Sanfratellano foals showed higher slaughter weight (P < 0.05) as well carcass weight (P < 0.05) compared to Haflinger foals. Meat physical and proximate analyses did not discriminate the two groups. Normal pH values (5.6-5.7) measured at 4-6 day post mortem were recorded in meat from both groups. Shear force values accounted (range 5558 N) for a favourable tenderness in both groups. The intramuscular fat level was low in both groups (< 2.5%) supporting the healthy image of this meat. The proportion of linolenic acid was higher (P < 0.01) in Haflinger meat than in Sanfratellano one, thus causing a higher (P < 0.05) total n-3 fatty acid content. Overall meat from both groups showed a favourable repartition among saturated (36-37% total FAME's), monounsaturated (33% total FAME's) and polyunsaturated fatty acids (30-31% total FAME's).
 * I would like to see this one. Dana boomer (talk) 17:06, 3 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Title: Genetic variability and population structure in the Italian Haflinger horse from pedigree analysis.
 * Author(s): Alberto, S.; Valentine, B.; Francesca, T. M., et al.
 * Source: Annali della Facolta di Medicina Veterinaria, Universita di Parma  Volume: 27   Pages: 199-210   Published: 2007

Abstract: By means of the use of pedigree analysis, the population structure was analyzed and the inbreeding coefficients were calculated for the Italian Haflinger horse breed. A total of 44 670 animals born between 1900 and 2004 were included, of which 9787 (8665 females) were alive. Base population (with one or both unknown parents) size was 2925 (2486.5 if considering 1 unknown parent as half founder). All blood lines within the breed (A, B, M, N, S, ST, W) were represented with different proportions, from 29.97% (line N) to 5.92% (line B). A maximum of 19 generations were traced (mean value 12.63), as complete generations were, on average, 3.36; the mean age of parents at the birth of offspring was 9.71 years. The expected effective population size was 3974, but taking account of the variance of progeny numbers of parents, the value dropped to 661; the true effective population size was 3846. The number of ancestors that explained the variability of the reference population (both parents known, 41 745 animals) was 1984 (44 effective ancestors), but only 15 of them explained up to 50% of genetic variability and 41 up to 70%. Lines within the breed failed to clearly cluster animals; the among line number of ancestors explaining 50% of the variability of the current population ranged between 7 and 13, as in the whole alive population it was 13 and in the reference population with both parents known it was 15. Mean inbreeding coefficient (SE) was equal to 2.16% (0.05); the lowest F value was shown in A blood line (1.74%0.14) and the highest in S blood line (3.05%0.17) (P<0.05). Sex and dead/alive status did not significantly influence (P>0.05) the F coefficient. In conclusion blood lines, that are transmitted as a paternal attribute, do not appear as an important factor for the assessment of variability in the Italian Haflinger breed.
 * I would like to see this one. Dana boomer (talk) 17:06, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Title: Morphological evolution of the Haflinger horse.
 * Author(s): Falaschini, A.; Rizzi, S.; Pasquini, M.

Conference Information: Proceedings of the ASPA 15th Congress, Parma, Italy, 18-20 June 2003.
 * Source: Italian Journal of Animal Science  Volume: 2   Issue: Suppl. 1   Pages: 595-597   Published: 2003

Abstract: A total of 138 Haflinger mares (minimum of 3-years-old) raised in 13 studs in Italy were divided into 4 age classes according to year of birth: class 1 (1984-1988), class 2 (1989-1993), class 3 (1994-1998) and class 4 (1999). Body measurements and morphological indices were then obtained for all classes. It was shown that height at withers significantly increased, while chest width, chest girth and cannon bone girth were significantly reduced, as birth year progressed. Anamorphosis index decreased from 243.99 in class 1 to 202.74 for class 4, while thoracic height and index also decreased. Pedigree analysis of 60 mares showed that 35% had an F value of >0 (average F=0.07), indicating high inbreeding. These results show the evolution of the Haflinger horse towards a lighter type, more suitable for riding.
 * I would like to see this one. Dana boomer (talk) 17:06, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Title: Estimation of genetic parameters for breeding of the Haflinger
 * Author(s): Zeiler, M; Distl, O
 * Source: ZUCHTUNGSKUNDE  Volume: 72   Issue: 4   Pages: 241-257   Published: JUL-AUG 2000

Abstract: In Bavaria performance testing on station was initiated for Haflinger mares in the year 1989 and for Haflinger stallions in the year 1990. Haflinger mares and stallions are tested on station for temperament, performance readiness, jumping, riding, cross country and carting abilities. The data analysis included 60 stallions and 600 mares being performance tested on four different stations in Bavaria and Thuringia from the years 1991 to 1995. Pedigree information was built up for eight generations. The objective of our study was to estimate genetic parameters and to develop a procedure to predict breeding values using information from performance tests on stations. Genetic parameters and breeding values were estimated employing a linear multitrait animal model including the random animal effect, the fixed effects for test station, year and season of test, age at test and the covariates Arab blood percentage and inbreeding coefficient. Records from stallions and mares were separately used to estimate dispersion parameters and to predict breeding values. The proportion of Arab blood reaches 9.5% in stallions and 9.8% in mares, resp. Mares showed a higher inbreeding coefficient (2.3%) as compared to stallions (1.7%). Heritability estimates were of low to medium size in mares. The corresponding heritabilities for stallions were higher and in the range between h(2) 0.2 and h(2) = 0.7. In mares the heritability estimates of interieur traits were rather low (h(2) = 0.01-0.1), for jumping and carting suitability heritabilities were low (h(2) = 0.1-0.2), and for the gaits of medium size (h(2) = 0.2-0.4). Correlations among breeding values of trait blocks within mares and stallions, resp.. were generally positive. A genetic antagonism between traits could not be detected. Analysis of correlations among mares and stallions using breeding values revealed for most traits rather small correlations and even negative values. Breeding values for riding and carting ability as well as the total merit breeding value showed correlation coefficients near zero. Selection based on a multivariate animal model should be able to make best use of information available from performance tests.
 * If this one is in English, I would like to see it. Dana boomer (talk) 17:06, 3 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Title: Genetic contribution of the Arabian to the Italian Haflinger horse
 * Author(s): Gandini, GC; Samore, A; Pagnacco, G
 * Source: JOURNAL OF ANIMAL BREEDING AND GENETICS  Volume: 114   Issue: 6   Pages: 457-464   Published: DEC 1997

Abstract: In the Haflinger, traditionally a pack horse, breeding has more recently turned to leisure riding. The largest populations are found in the countries where the breed originates, Austria, Germany and Italy. Following the opening of markets within the European Union there are debates on the standardization of registration criteria in the national stud books. A major issue concerns the number of Haflinger generations required for registration and the presence of Arabian ancestors. Those breeder associations that support the presence of the Arabian in later generations appeal to an 'Arabian origin' of the breed through the stallion Folie. Born in South Tirol in 1874 and considered the progenitor of the breed, he was an Arabian half-breed. The progeny of a few Arabian horses were in the past introduced into the Italian Haflinger. Arabian progenitors of Arabian half-breeds that were registered in the Italian stud book can be considered founders of the Arabian gene pool in the breed. The genetic contribution of Arabian founders to the whole population can then be studied. Changes of the Arabian gene pool in the registered Haflinger are of considerable interest to the present 'Haflinger Arabian' debate. The Haflinger founders of the Italian stud book can be divided by their country of origin, Italy, Austria or Germany. In this paper the genetic contributions of the founder populations to the Italian Haflinger stud book with particular reference to the Arabian horse, are analysed.
 * I would like to see this one. Dana boomer (talk) 17:06, 3 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Title: Genetic parameters and breeding values for linear type traits in the Haflinger horse.
 * Author(s): Samore, A. B.; Pagnacco, G.; Miglior, F.
 * Source: Livestock Production Science  Volume: 52   Issue: 2   Pages: 105-111   Published: 1997

Abstract: Genetic parameters and breeding values were estimated for linear type traits in the Italian Haflinger horse population. Traits were divided into 10 groups depending on the region of the body on which they were measured. Observations on 510 males and 3392 females were analysed using a multiple trait animal model for every group of traits. Fixed effects of herd group by birth year and classifier by year of evaluation were considered. Genetic parameters were estimated using restricted maximum likelihood. Estimates of heritability ranged from 0.02 to 0.53. Lowest estimations were found for temperament traits (0.02 and 0.06) while highest values were for coat description traits (0.29 to 0.53). Estimates of genetic correlations between traits ranged from -0.32 to 0.99. The highest correlation obtained was between volume and expressiveness of the head (0.99). Breeding values were estimated using the same multiple trait animal model. Standardized breeding values will be used for selection on morphology in the Italian Haflinger population.
 * I would like to see this one, although it may be a little out date. Dana boomer (talk) 17:06, 3 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Title: INBREEDING IN THE ITALIAN HAFLINGER HORSE
 * Author(s): GANDINI, GC; BAGNATO, A; MIGLIOR, F, et al.
 * Source: JOURNAL OF ANIMAL BREEDING AND GENETICS-ZEITSCHRIFT FUR TIERZUCHTUNG UND ZUCHTUNGSBIOLOGIE  Volume: 109   Issue: 6   Pages: 433-443   Published: DEC 1992

Abstract: We analysed inbreeding and coancestry in the registered Italian Haflinger horse. Average inbreeding from 1.21 % of 1925-33 increased to 6.59 % in 1979-87. The presence of centres that own stallions that are distributed over the district of their jurisdiction during the mating season results in clusters of genetic correlations and deviation from panmixia. Current inbreeding within districts is low and often we observe avoidance of consanguineous mating. The high observed reproductive heterogeneity, in particular among males, suggests the use of Ne equations that do not assume Poisson distributed fertility. Height at wither and girth, measured on 4,736 horses, decreased significantly (P < 0.001) of respectively 1.1 and 2.9 cm with 10 % increases in the inbreeding coefficient.
 * I think this one may be considered "old" in comparison to the 2007 paper above detailing a pedigree/inbreeding analysis of the Italian Haflinger. Dana boomer (talk) 17:06, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Sasata, thank you for doing this! I had found a few articles, but nowhere near this many! I have marked the ones above that I would like, if you have access to them. Also, any other papers that deal with the use of the Haflinger as a meat animal would be welcomed - this was not a use that I came across in my sources and it would be interesting to see how widespread this is. Thanks again, Dana boomer (talk) 17:06, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

FA sweep
Dana, I missed this earlier, but in most of the breed articles, we do breed characteristics before history. There are probably good arguments both ways, but I think the underlying reasoning was to say what they looked like before their history, and then the "uses" section comes after history because it dovetails so often with a "the breed today" type of historical wrapup. See, in particular, Thoroughbred, where the history is pretty long and characteristics come first. No skin off my nose either way, but just thought I'd note it. Your call. I also did some other minor copyediting, hope it was helpful. Montanabw (talk) 22:53, 10 November 2010 (UTC) "Follow up' Malleus, sorry I was editing while you were editing. I did some major tweaking of the intro, but you were doing so at the same time and we had an edit conflict.  You may want to see if my version (which rearranged some stuff and rephrased other things) can now be tweaked.  Montanabw (talk) 22:59, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yup, done; I always forget that part. Dana boomer (talk) 00:39, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm trying not to be too much of a pain in the butt, here! (LOL!)  Montanabw (talk) 18:01, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Minor thought: Should that "breed lines" heading be "bloodlines"?  The first sounds weird, the second more common.  Some breeds say "strains", though if the Haflingers don't, I wouldn't either.  But maybe "Bloodlines."  Not a big deal, just my opinion.   Montanabw (talk) 02:54, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming you're refering to the subheader under Characteristics? I just rechecked, and the sources I have immediate access to all say "stallions lines", so that's what I've changed the header to. Let me know if I missed it anywhere else. Dana boomer (talk) 03:04, 12 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Works for me, and has the elegance of matching the source! OH! Do you need to do ALT text on all the images for FA?  I can help with that if you do!   My last set of thoughts is if the photos are placed a bit randomly and could be rearranged.   This is entirely a style issue and I don't think in any way is a change that I'd insist on seeing.  But, I'm wondering if that set of head shots you just added would be better up by "breed characteristics," and the pack horse string put with "history," the work horses moved down to "uses", and so on.  I like all the photos and think they all should stay, just with a bit of rearranging.  Thoughts?   Montanabw (talk) 17:06, 12 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Alt text isn't needed for FAC, but the only alt text needed anyway is "alt=Photograph". Malleus Fatuorum 19:20, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

(undent) I don't want to move the group head shot up to Characteristics as there is not really a place to put a left aligned photo in that section. You can't put them under level 2 headers and if you put it under the level 3 header it would make the bullet points look funny. I moved the photos in the History section around a little (and moved the carriage one to the Uses section), so see what you think. Dana boomer (talk) 22:31, 12 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Works for me. Tweaked one thing that seems to have exceeded the source.   Montanabw (talk) 02:17, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Incoming Links
Hi, I fixed the car links, but if anyone wants to fix the horse links here, feel free! Fasach Nua (talk) 10:08, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I got them all. Thanks for the work you did! Dana boomer (talk) 14:10, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Haflinger v. Avelignese
I don't want to radically edit an article that people have clearly put a lot of work into, but a few points:

(1) a large part of the article, including the whole Postwar history, is exclusively about the breed in Austria. For better or worse – I hope there's no need to re-fight the Great War here! – the main original breeding area and vast majority of the breeding stock is in Italy
 * I would have to disagree here. Up until WWI, South Tyrol was part of Austria-Hungary, and so until 1919, Haflingers were bred pretty much exclusively in that country. After that, Hafling/Avelengo (and South Tyrol) were part of Italy, and so a large portion of Haflinger breeding was done there. However, I believe that the article does a relatively good job of conveying this to the reader. The World Wars section discusses stock transfers and breeding problems between North and South Tyrol, while the Postwar section discusses breeding/sales in both North and South Tyrol, as well as Bavaria and the breed's spread to the rest of the world. However, if you have reliable sources that can be used to give a better summary of the breed in what is now Italy, please present them. We also have to avoid getting too detailed about various aspects of the breed's history, or else we risk getting beyond the comprehension/interest of the average lay reader. For example, the Schweisgut book dedicates (IIRC) around 1/3 of his book to detailed pedigrees of the breed lines, which, while interesting to scholars of the Haflinger breed, is just TMI to most readers. Dana boomer (talk) 13:46, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Let me make a couple of guesses: (1) the Schweisgut book was a principal source for this article; (2) Schweisgut is/was not an Italian. The Sudtirol issue is a bitter enough topic: I suggest a careful re-examination of the current version of the article for statements that could appear biased. In particular, I suggest that any text as rabidly and offensively nationalistic as should be treated (and quoted) with the most extreme caution and circumspection, as should anyone closely associated with it (which would include Herr Schweisgut, btw)  Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:42, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * If you have specific examples of biased statements, I suggest that you point them out. The Schweisgut book was actually added after the majority of the article was written, to flesh out some points, especially in the History section. As far as I know, the Breeding Success page is not used as a ref - that is on purpose. I see nothing "offensively nationalistic" about it though, it is simply bragging about the horses that it breeds, which is something that every registry for every breed in the world does. If you think that page is bad, you should see some of the registry pages for the Friesian and the Icelandic - they can apparently do everything from dressage to leaping tall buildings. Dana boomer (talk) 23:30, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, IMO, the jingoistic bits can be easily found by searching for the word "Tyrol"; anyway, here's a link to a site that gives a somewhat less biased view, though not without a bit of drum-banging: the Provincial Federation of South Tyrol Haflinger Horse Breeders. I'd suggest trying to incorporate some of the facts, and perhaps some of the tone too, which seems to me to skate reasonably well over the tricky ice of the Alto Adige. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 02:16, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not seeing anything on that page that's not already in the article? Could you please point out exactly which facts you're talking about? And exactly what the tone problem is? Not sure why there's a problem with "Tyrol" either? That's the word that every source (German, Italian, Austrian, American, British, Australian, etc) uses for the region, both the Italian portion and the Austrian portion. I'm really not sure what your issue with the term is? Dana boomer (talk) 20:25, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

The region is correctly called "Provincia di Bolzano - Alto Adige" in Italian, but is almost always referred to simply as "Alto Adige". I'll try and find time to do you a compare and contrast of those two versions of the history. You need "in the" not "at" before Val Venosta, since it is a valley. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:17, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

(2) while Avelignese is still the common name of these horses in Italy, they are (since about 1971) officially known and registered only as Haflinger
 * I don't think the article says anyplace that they are registered as Avelignese, but that is still a common name, and so it is important to have that in the article. Dana boomer (talk) 13:46, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Suggest including the fact in the article Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:42, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Source? Dana boomer (talk) 23:30, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Source? Which bit? The common name? It's like Paris, everybody knows it. The official name? The official association, the ANACRHAI. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 02:16, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, I'm confused now. Do you want to include the fact that they are also known as the Avelignese in the article? Or do you want to include the fact that they are only registered as Haflingers? The first is already in the article. The second I would have thought obvious from the fact that the name "Avelignese" is never mentioned in the registration section. Dana boomer (talk) 20:20, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Suggest including something like my sentence at (2) above in the article, to make clear that the Italian name is used in everyday speech, while the official name under which horses are registered, shown etc. in Italy is the German one. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:17, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe that "The breed is also called the Avelignese, from the Italian word for Hafling, which is Avelengo or previously Aveligna." in the characteristics section covers the first part. I have added a bit to the registration section that states that the Italian organization includes the word "Haflinger" in the association name and is part of the World Haflinger Federation, which should make it obvious that they are not registered in Italy as the Avelignese. Dana boomer (talk) 14:39, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

(3) until recently two quite distinct types could be recognised, a light Austrian or South Tirolean pony (the Haflinger), and a sturdy small Italian horse some 10 cm taller, the Avelignese (see Hartley Edwards for comparative photos and descriptions of the two); while this distinction has officially been abolished by the establishment of the ANACRHAI (link above), it could have a place in the article
 * I don't see a link? Edwards (despite being written after 1971), does not make the point that they are now one breed that had two different types, so I am not comfortable with using him as a source on this subject. If you have a source that says there were two distinct types that have since merged, it would be useful. Dana boomer (talk) 13:46, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, the link was right up at the top, {http://www.haflinger.it/index.html]. Can't follow your reasoning here; if Hartley Edwards, writing in the 90s, was able to distinguish two different types, and they are all now registered under one name, does it not follow that they have been merged? For a comparison of new and old type on a not overly accurate website, see . The second photo shows the type of horse that might have been used in the creation of the TPR (also totally absent from the article as it stands, btw). How many of the horses on this page can you imagine carrying loads of cut wood out of mountain woodland, or dragging gun-carriages through the mud in the Great War?  Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:42, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Because Edwards states that they are two different breeds, which they are not - just two types of one breed. We cannot turn his false statement into a statement in the article on the fact that there were two different types. I'm also not seeing where in the link that you provided that the new association "abolished" the distinction between the two types? The source says that changes were made to the breed's physical appearance, but it does not say which changes were made - and as far as I can see, nowhere does it say that there were two different types that have since merged. We cannot make assumptions from photographs, that is original research, and since this is a featured article, using unreliable sources is especially wrong. Dana boomer (talk) 23:30, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * How do you like this one, then? Myself, I wouldn't trust it further than I can throw it, but I do notice that it is widely cited here, and appears to carry some quite detailed information on some breeds that must have come from somewhere or other. Supports that 'false statement' of Edwards, too, I note. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:17, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Equinekingdom is not reliable. It should be replaced or removed from all of the articles that it is used in (only around 30 I think, so not that widely cited). It is especially unacceptable for use in this article, which is a featured article, as articles with that designation are held to higher standards. Dana boomer (talk) 14:39, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Agree 100%, removing wherever I see it. Anyway, have now found an incontrovertible source for my previous ramblings above. The Avelignese Tradizionale is listed on the FAO Critical List for 2007. Since this sort of destruction of local genotypes by big-business breeding and ill-informed breeding standards is all too common, I'd like to suggest that it be given some prominence in the article. Or, if you prefer, I will create a page for the Avelignese. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:31, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, that source won't work, because it doesn't discuss the fact that there are two different types. Basically, we need a source that says "There were two different types, called such and such. These differed because of characteristics 1, 2 and 3. However, in year whatever, they were merged and all are now known as the Haflinger." or whatever. Sources discussing one, without discussing the other, won't work, because then we never know if all of the sources are referring to one type or if there are truly two different types. "this sort of destruction of local genotypes by big-business breeding and ill-informed breeding standards is all too common" is your opinion, and you need good sources to back up this sort of information being entered into the article, even more so since it is a FA. A separate page shouldn't be created for the Avelignese, because at this point they are all one breed. Although I agree that the history of the breed should be discussed, we need to work from the sources. Unfortunately, WP at this point doesn't really care what editors know - it cares what they can source. Articles should be built from sources, not from editor knowledge that is then sourced to poor quality sources. Also, with regards to Equine Kingdom, please try to re-source the information, rather than just removing references (even poor ones) wholesale. Dana boomer (talk) 17:56, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

(4) Hafling is Avelengo in Italian; Aveligna is an old name, changed in 1923
 * Because the breed was bred prior to 1923, I think it is important to have both names in the article. However, I have tweaked the wording a bit to show that this is an old name.Dana boomer (talk) 13:46, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

(5) again for better or worse, placenames in the South Tirol are in Italian first, with the German name following, thus Bolzano (Bozen) etc., and indeed Avelengo (Hafling); changing these in the article might improve readability too, making it less difficult to remember which side of the present border say Meltina (Mölten) is on.
 * The majority of readers are not going to realize that Bolzano is the Italian version of Bozen, and so putting that version first means that the city is now on the Italian side of the border. It is more vital to avoid confusing the reader by using multiple town names. I have tried to clarify a little better where the various towns were located at various times, and I think I have done a decent job of discussing the transfer of South Tyrol from Austria-Hungary to Italy. In the case of Molten, we are discussing the town when it was still owned by Austria-Hungary, and so using the Italian version is inappropriate. Dana boomer (talk) 13:46, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * My point exactly. Bolzano is, for better or worse, in Italy.
 * I have changed the Bozen instance to Bolzano, but I see no need at this point to change the others. Dana boomer (talk) 23:30, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:46, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * One thing I'd note is that I think there is an ongoing discussion all across wikipedia over when we use English place names and when we use the version in a particular language. The policy is here. Munich would be a classic example. (In fact, they had that edit war, see Talk:Munich)  However, I believe the consensus is to use the common term in English, though noting in the text or a note if there are others.  To me, it's one of those things they can fight out elsewhere, we'll only ignore policy here when it makes particular sense for us.   Montanabw (talk) 21:34, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Fine with me, no person, animal or town in the article has an English name that I'm aware of; region and country names are already in English. Presumably the relevant bit here is the last section, Portuguese for Brazilian town names etc.? However, wrt Dana's last point, I can't find anything that says that the name of everything in history should be the name it had when that bit of history happened to it. I note, for example, that the Mao article is headed Mao Zedong even though he was called Mao Tse-Tung throughout his life. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:42, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, Montana, I think you get to pick between German and Italian - no Englilsh included! For the most part, I have gone with the names of the town in the sources I have used. Dana boomer (talk) 23:30, 15 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The changes rearranging the order of the names is OK with me. I think there's a sudden surge of interest in the Italian horse articles overall, several active users across several numbers.  Justnumbers, what's up with that?  Italian government taking a new interest in Ag policy, simple nationalism, or something else? (I really didn't see a bias either, but I have no clue as to the nuances of Italian-German relations these days.)  As far as I am concerned, I don't want to fight with naming conventions stuff here any more than has to happen, I usually advise sticking with overall wikipedia policy unless there's a good reason for WP:IAR (like in some of our horse breed naming guielines) or some group has instituted a phenominally idiotic policy that is sure to change again a month from now (LOL).   I say there's always a place to note all relevant alternative names, redirects are a beautiful thing, and as for Chairman Mao, I suspect HE would have not used English syntax for his name at all, and thus transliteration from Chinese is entirely an edit war amogst those of us in the western world!  ;-)    Montanabw (talk) 04:52, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, missed the question in there, take it it is directed at me? Why am I looking at the articles about Italian breeds? An unsupported assertion in a front-page article caught my eye, caused me to look at them. The coverage of the 25 or so indigenous Italian equines seems to range from weak to non-existent (though still far ahead of Italian Wikipedia), so I thought I 'd try to make a start on improving some of it. I know nothing whatsoever about the eight breeds of donkey, rather little about most of the horses, a little more about a few; but perhaps still rather more than those who have contributed to the articles so far. I live in Italy and am fluent in Italian, which helps; keep horses, participate annually in what may well be the last remaining horse transhumance in Europe, am fairly familiar with the fast-fading world of traditional Monta da Lavoro, working riding. I had rather hoped that some expert would step forward and write some really great stuff; still hoping... Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 01:51, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't fret, we are getting it all figured out. I'm glad you're helping, we just had a little of the usual "who the heck are you" thing that happens on wikipedia a lot when folks sort of dive in headfirst with criticism at a time when everyone is a little uptight (like when an article is on the main page and being vandalized every ten seconds! LOL!) I'm over it from my end.    I think several of the smaller articles on Italian horses were created by a native speaker of Italian with fairly weak English, then I did some very superficial cleanup because I hadn't the time to go into them much.  The others are older, not sure their origins, again, most just had superficial cleanup from time to time, but no major housekeeping.  Just so you know, a while back we had some trouble on a totally different set of articles on other breeds where some folks with overly enthusiastic feelings wanted to ignore the known facts in light of popular nationalistic myths and got really nasty with us.  Speaking only for myself, I am guilty of keeping a slightly jaundiced eye on people at first.  My joke is that everyone's breed is faster than a speeding bullet and can leap skyscrapers in a single bound!   Montanabw (talk) 03:02, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved to Haflinger. Favonian (talk) 20:26, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Haflinger (horse) → Haflinger – Per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Google books: haflinger+horse about 1690; haflinger+car+OR+vehicle+OR+4wd+OR+offroad+OR+Steyr+OR+Daimler+OR+Puch about 634. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:44, 31 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Support I'm OK with either Haflinger or Haflinger horse. All I really care about is getting rid of the darn parentheses.   I'll support primary topic, though if a drama war erupts, you're on your own!  (LOL)  Montanabw (talk) 20:11, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't care - I've said before, I really have no opinion as to what title this article is at, I think it's equally find-able either way. However, you may want to drop notes at the Haflinger (vehicle) page and the main Haflinger dab page, just to notify anyone who's interested. Also, there was a brief discussion about this on the FAC page, which resulted in the main page being turned into a dab page (previously the vehicle was the primary topic) - may want to check that out, although it was brief. Dana boomer (talk) 11:26, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Translation into french
I've translated this article into french, added some informations from fr books and some pics like this one :

These informations are (I don't know if my translation here is good) :

Breyer have done a "figurine" (don't know the english for) of the breed.

In France, the breed is present in all regions, particularly in Bretagne, Bourgogne and Picardie. Since 2000s, between 350 and 400 foals birth each year (ref is the ref "haras" quoted in this article)

In 1970, (we had a "pony phenomen" coming from England and pony clubs were created by thousands), the Hafinger is imported in France from North Tyrol. The Association of the breed is created the same year and the breed considered as a pony section D. Haflingers are imported until 1975, since this time breeding is realized just in France. Number of Haflinger is x3 between 1980s and 2000s (ref name = haras) In the opinion of Lætitia Bataille (one of our fr equine journalists) breeding of Haflingers is a growing market stable, dynamic and structured. ref : Lætitia Bataille, Les poneys: Races et élevage (the ponies, breeds and breeding), France Agricole Éditions, 2007, (ISBN 2855571405), p. 138.

I will propose this article at good quality soon. Thanks to all contributors of this page (on fr wp we are a lot to translate just to keep a level roughly correct in English) --Tsaag Valren (talk) 09:34, 7 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi Tsaag. In English, we'd say "model horse" though figurine is formal and accurate; either is correct, but the first is more colloquial. You may want to see Breyer horse or Model horse on en.wiki (not great articles, but we have them!) -- I actually have a model Haflinger in my own collection, not sure the rules on uploading model toys (there's some copyright hiccup), but if you want a photo, let me know. Also, our en.wiki on what you call a "firebrand" is livestock branding. Montanabw (talk) 20:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Montana, thanks for these informations. In "marque à feu" become "firebrand" if you translate word by word. Another little information from fr books : Franz Joseph I of Austria rode a Haflinger at the end of his life, and the coat color chestnut with flaxen of the Haflinger is an origin of his success all around the world : Chevaux et poneys, Éditions Artemis, 2002, p. 83 http://books.google.fr/books?id=tR8khdK6WJcC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=Haflinger&source=bl&ots=P0Wljw_cLv&sig=6Gk3BoTStQRtjGrZIlTdHuG-7C0&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=Rh9LUNv6OYq-0QXr8IGgBg&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Haflinger&f=false --Tsaag Valren (talk) 10:53, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yhe WHF have a magazine (all in german, all these sources I cannot read, it makes me crazy !) with lots of informations, here : http://www.haflinger-tirol.com/uploads/media/Zeitung_September_02.pdf . Interesting answers with our national stud's search engine, here, too :

... I think that is all for now, you've not the french and german articles, in total there are 41 replies ;)--Tsaag Valren (talk) 21:17, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Milk of Italian saddle and Haflinger nursing mares : physico-chemical characteristics, nitrogen composition and mineral elements at the end of lactation in Italian journal of animal science (3, p293-299)
 * Trend in ash and mineral element content of milk from Haflinger nursing mares throughout six lactation months in Livestock production science (88, p55-62)
 * Morphological evolution of the Haflinger horse in ASPA congress, Scientific Association of Animal Production, Parme, Italia, 18-20 june (2, suppl 1, p595-597)
 * Genetic parameters and breeding values for linear type traits in the Haflinger horse in Livestock production science (52, p105-111)
 * Deepfreezing preservation trials with semen of Arab and Haflinger stallions in the Turkish National Studs Karacabey in Deutsche Tierarztliche Wochenschrift (100, p476-478)
 * A note on inheritance of the coat colour in the Haflinger horse. 1 - flaxen mane and tail in Ippologia (2, 3, p61-63)
 * A note on inheritance of the coat colour in the Haflinger horse. 2 - The dorsal stripe in Ippologia (p285-293)
 * On the heredity of hair colour in Haflinger horse in Arch tierz (30, 1, p55-62)
 * Heritability of the score in Haflinger horse, 8 Congresso Nazionale, - Italian Association of Equine Practitioners (p215-227)
 * Thanks Tsaag! I hope the good article nomination goes well! I've added the information that you provide above to the article... The image we were told at this article's featured article candidacy that we can't use, because the author of the design (if I recall correctly, from what I could find, it's a private farm brand, not the official breed brand) hasn't given permission for the work to be used. The journal articles above look interesting (although a few are probably too specific to be used in a layman article like this one)...I'll see if I have access to any of the ones in English. Dana boomer (talk) 13:58, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello Dana, in fact, I cannot run the GA nomination before have fixed last points of the translation... and despite a request for assistance nobody have help me for this. I've found some of the articles quoted before (like this one : http://www.aspajournal.it/index.php/ijas/article/view/ijas.2003.s1.595 ) --Tsaag Valren (talk) 16:08, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Is there anything I can help on with the translation? Or are the remaining issues things that need an expert French speaker? Forgive me if I missed a request for assistance above... Dana boomer (talk) 21:05, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * If you need help with the German, User:PumpkinSky speaks German and User:Gerda Arendt is a native speaker of German.  Montanabw (talk) 22:02, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi, there's 3 sentence I cannot translate : [inspection] based on hereditary reliability and likely breeding strength as well as the other qualifications,  to be light on the forehand and balanced , has a very distinct motion forwards and upwards.

For german can you tell me if this source : http://www.haflinger-tirol.com/uploads/media/Zeitung_September_02.pdf is useful ? Thanks --Tsaag Valren (talk) 10:23, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Règlement du stud-book français du poney Haflinger
Naturally, what is cited from a book written in French will find French words in the original rather than English ones. That is not a good reason for insisting on French names where there are English ones, or for linking to redirects instead of to articles - Bourgogne instead of Burgundy, Allemagne instead of Germany, &c. Moonraker (talk) 01:20, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

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